Streamed music sounds awful in my system and I don't know why ....

Get rid of the PC. Decouple the Eth net from the system.

Small Green Computer

Or

Too much bad information.  A specialty pc can become part of a hi end playback system.  WMP has no place...try JRiver MC or even WinAmp.  

Unfortunately, no truly fine internal pc DACs exist.  The last true audiophile PCI sound card was the M-Audio 2496. The downside was that no drivers were ever provided past W7.  I guess that hasn't stopped some of us from enjoying these amazing machines.

Despite some short comings, simple desktops or even NUC's can provide a foundation for streaming & NAS solutions of hi caliber and immense satisfaction.

Many if not most off the shelf streamers cannot run HQPlayer dsp, not enough processing power. Probably my single greatest issue with off the shelf is this lacking. Most have chosen low power processors, their means to achieving low noise platform. With the right diy setup you can have both high speed processing and low noise. Takes more engineering prowess, but greater speed and using less of a processor's capabilities may result in superior performance.

DIY may also result in a far more adaptable streamer, I can choose between optimal usb, aes/ebu, coax, I2S, direct ethernet out with my atx board streamer. With Euphony OS can choose between various music player software, all Roon, Roon core with embedded HQPLayer, Roon with Stylus EP (Eurphony's music player), all HQPlayer, all Stylus (core and endpoint). Many other proprietary optimizations available via Euphony OS, for instance direct play from RAM.

"Excellent sounding streaming can be achieved with your PC in the right circumstances. If using USB, make sure your DAC has a good USB implementation and has Galvanic isolation. I’m streaming through Roon and Tidal/Qobuz and upsampling PCM as High as 1024X DSD with my Audio Holo May KTE DAC and HQPlayer. Even without using upsampling, it sounds excellent. You don’t necessarily need a dedicated streamer to achieve excellent streaming results! People who are telling you the PC is bad just haven't hear a well setup PC that had good results."

I can vouch for this exact setup. There is a bit of a learning curve with HQPlayer but no DAC can match the quality of upsampling/filtering, there is simply not enough headroom for the processing.

@sns Thank You for the suggestion. I am sure it would sound very nice. But I am happy with my current setup. I use Foobar2000 that is highly configured to stream everything (including Radio Paradise and Folk Alley) in DSD. Will keep this info in my back pocket for future.

Also you can add all music folders (data folders + music application folders) to your antivirus exception list if you use real-time protection.  You can still run scans manually when you're not playing music.

@milpai I'd suggest doing trial with Euphony Version 4 OS for Windows platform. Run Stylus music player and compare with present setup.

@lalitk ,

That is correct. But what I am saying is that Windows PC is not necessarily a cause for bad sound. Devices need to be dedicated and optimized. Granted that general public will not be able to do that and hence should probably go with ready made servers. My server build was an ear opener for me.

@sns,

Let’s  agree to disagree on Windows PC customized for audio. I don’t necessarily believe that one has to go to Linux or other OS to get great sound. At least with my dedicated audio server, I experienced an amazing upgrade that I never thought was possible. I would think that only DAC upgrade might make a difference. But I do get the point that companies like Aurender, Lumin, etc put heroic efforts in power supply and hardware design to minimize noise.

It is possible to modify pc and get pretty nice sound, with some research and a modicum of skills possible to get there. Greatest problems with Windows platforms, Windows OS and power supplies. Even the Windows optimizing OS software doesn't turn off all possible processing for lowest noise, HDPlex solutions can help on power supply, still not optimum.

On Mac platform power supply issues easier to address, OS is greatest issue with this. Newest Mac OS loaded up with many unneeded embedded apps (for a dedicated music server), these apps cannot be erased and maintain a functioning OS. Result is mac os noisy.

One could go to third party or Linux OS for both platforms, this will help. One example of pretty nice Windows computer setup would be running something like Euphony OS with HDPLex power supply. One could also have pretty nice Mac setup with Uptone power supply running Euphony.

Above setups also dependent on quality of motherboard, RAM, SSD, processor, etc. To be really top flight all needs to be optimized. So bottom line, you can get pretty nice performance out of this type of diy pc. One should always keep in mind all music servers are computers, use computer motherboards, implementation means everything. Both off the shelf and bespoke music servers are essentially custom builds, and both beat the general service computer. I agree, general service computers have no business in high end system.

“Poor PC gets blamed”

@milpai 

If I recall correctly, didn’t you recently upgraded from a laptop to custom build streamer and couldn’t believe the improvements over your laptop? 

Poor PC gets blamed. I recently built a Windows 11 based player/streamer and play my music through that. There’s probably tons of background services running on OP’s machine that might be degrading his playback. Simple things like switching off leds on motherboard and not running any other process except music playback is what a PC should do. All the prebuilt music players like Aurender, Lumin etc only play music and that is how a PC should be “purpose” built. Fidelizer optimizes the services even further. Also don’t use WMP. Use a different software like Foobar2000, Audirvana, etc with AISO or WASAPI driver.
 

If you cannot do this with your existing PC, then get a nice streamer and be done. But folks need to stop blaming the PC. 

juanmanuelfangioii

Our servers snound better then innous.

when you did your 

comparison was it vias usb on the statement? because via ethernet you would not notice any improvement

This thread has gotten a bit off track.
 

I have been an early adopter of digital since it’s inception… sad, I know… thirty + years of disappointment. Digital has been improving, especially in the last fifteen to twenty years. Today with careful choice of equipment Streaming >= CD or stored files and  can = vinyl. I am not saying a $10K digital end will sound better than a  $100K analog end. I have talked about it elsewhere, but very generally at the same price level, plus or minus 20%. My system does. You can see my systems under my UserID

Like all other things in high end audio your results are going to depend on your component choices.

Qobuz uses lossless compression. Meaning your streamer unpacks the files and buffers them to be identical to a locally read file. Like every thing in high end audio, better components sound better.  I am able to directly compare on my system between the two streaming / CD or other combinations and they sound identical.

The place to start is thinking about equal investments in each component. Streamer, DAC, preamp, amp, phono stage, and turntable, if you have analog. My streamer and amp a bit more expensive that my other components. 

What you hear is correct. CD sounds better, as does watching a Blu-ray movie from Disc compared to streaming the movie in UHD or 4K, there is no comparison due to bandwidth limitations from the streaming companies and of course our internet service. Streaming is convenient and it ends there. CD, Vinyl is the way to go if you want the best sound possible, and I fully know how CD had been put down by the Magazines after 20 years saying their systems reviews using gear were SOTA and their sources were CDs. Streaming is #1 nowadays and that won't change, any physical format lags behind in sales be it music or Video but that does not make them the best source material.

@willywonka

I had a feeling that you will avoid answering my simple query. I see that you have modified your original post. Would you be kind enough to tell the readers, how to properly setup a PC for streaming?

Let me ask you a question. Under what circumstances have you tried streaming from your PC?  What DAC and how did you do it? Please be specific.

“Excellent sounding streaming can be achieved with your PC”
@willywonka 

What dedicated streamer have you auditioned and compared with your PC to arrive at your subjective opinion? 

Excellent sounding streaming can be achieved with your PC in the right circumstances. If using USB, make sure your DAC has a good USB implementation and has Galvanic isolation. I’m streaming through Roon and Tidal/Qobuz and upsampling PCM as High as 1024X DSD with my Audio Holo May KTE DAC and HQPlayer. Even without using upsampling, it sounds excellent. You don’t necessarily need a dedicated streamer to achieve excellent streaming results! People who are telling you the PC is bad just haven't hear a well setup PC that had good results.

On the quibble, i understand that they enhance music with metadata (however, its not as great as they claim - not i'm a user since pretty much day #1) but there is no enhancement when my music does not play at all.  Sure, give me the full experience with internet, but don't block the core of my system.

I have already complained, as have many more, and note they slammed the door on it ever changing.  So the answer as you say is "enough people"....apparently not enough today.  So buyer beware.

Anyway - to the OP. Figure out the exact configuration that you are streaming. Its often hard ot find in a PC.  Next, isolate. Even my roon core is run on a custom, linear, low noise power supply of my own design.  beyond most peole's ability, but buying one is just a few $100.

Don't just react to "PC bad".  PC not bad, PC just opens pandora's box.

@itsjustme The raise a number of great points:

Basically it's all about the noise from a computer. Fighting is possible but for those who computers aren't their passion, it's not worth the fight. Get a low power single-purpose device with a simple OS and w/o a million processes running that aren't in support of audio(aka. a streamer).

Not to quibble but the other side of this statement:

They also have made it so that you cannot play your own local library unless you have an active broadband internet connection. 

That's so they can give you all the fantastic metadata, artist links, biographies etc. For any victims who've ripped CDs in iTunes and lost album art...well Roon is your savior. I'm sure if enough people complain about it, Roon will provide an option to turn off internet connection required, but IMHE, it's a benefit even when listening to my own library. More often than not, their metadata and supplements are better than what's on the files. YMMV Cheers,

Spencer

@esarhaddon

This has nothing to do with bits. The bits arrive just fine.  The problem is ground noise and pre-processing of the bits.  Most media players do digital manipulatino of the signal to put it on the media bus, and then spit it out. Most also do some level manipulation, including digital volume control, which rob you of resolution. As numbers are multiplied (which is how volume control is achieved) there are remainders nad truncation's. You can very esily get down into 10-12 bits effective resolution.

It matters not if its a $10,000 gaming PC or a 10 year old core duo.  Same problem exists.

a few points.  While i agree that the problems re likely with WMP and the PC, i want to re-iterate where the problems likely lie. Not with the simple fact that you are using a PC -- but with two things:

1. The configuration settings, some of which may be very hard to optimize

2. With the electrical (ground) noise

Both of these can be ficed, but most wont have either the expertise or the inclination to do so. On a mac you can use bitperfect and the configuration issues are solved.  Gond isolation is more of a problem, although on battery power my macbookpro was more or less fine.

Many have suggested Roon.  I love roon, and also hate roon. Note that you will still have the ground noise problem if you connect your roon PC directly to your DAC.

Roon has also just made major changes that i find a real problem. They discontinued support for most operating systems aside form the very atest - making most of my units obsolete even as casual remotes.  They also have made it so that you cannot play your own local library unless you have an active broadband internet connection.  You heard me right.  So yea, its great, but its also nto the most customer friendly company on earth. This is all very new BTW.  Beware.

I do think that software solutions liek Roon or audirvahna are fare more modern and long-term than some costly streamer-in-a box (which is almost certainly a raspberry Pi computer inside a fancy box with a good power supply and isolation).

You can modify the pc diy route as some above have mentioned, you can also go lower, medium grade off the shelf streamer, and then there are top of line streamers. My choice is top of line streamer budget allowing. Streams should be virtually indistinguishable from cd over transport or cd rips, you'll know you've arrived when this is your experience.

Something else I would caution people on. Reports like this one from ZDNet magazine.

How to convert your home's old TV cabling into powerful Ethernet lines | ZDNET
www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/networking/how-to-convert-your-homes-old-tv-cabling-into-useful-ethernet-lines/?ftag=TRE-03-10aaa6b&bhid=%7B%24external_id%7D&mid=%7B%24MESSAGE_ID%7D&cid=%7B%24contact_id%7D

These peopl eare not audiophiles and yet when reading some of the reports in these forums I wonder what people ARE following.

If his PC is that bad, he needs a serious upgrade. Either the router is somehow failing at that point and allowing some sort of back feed, which I don't see possible, or the PC itself is a piece 'o' CHIT. I am constantly amazed at how people are willing to pay tens and hundreds of thousands of $ for audio equipment and then put in some sort of junker PC into the mix. I don't even have my case sides installed and I get '0' interference from the PC. A Simple test of TURNING OFF the PC might prove if that is the source of the problem. I can stream multiple sources and I get as good of sound quality, from the PC and more convenient than even my dedicated Streamer. But it is what I work with 16 hours a day also. And convenience is not sound quality. I would start replacing Less expensive and easier-to-try components like that MINIMAL CAT6 cable. An acceptable CAT 7 or 8 Cable can' be acquired for chump change. Also if it is the cable, try replacing it with ANYTHING. Even lesser quality should show a marked difference if it is the cable causing the problem.
Then find a friend that might be willing to let you try a piece or two of their equipment in your system or to put some of your pieces in their system. Even if theirs is of a lower quality.

Get the PC out and put ANY streamer in.  I have a Node N130 and it’s much better sounding than my PC. I’m sure i do better, but this is where I started.

Oh, maybe I missed it, but what streaming service are you using? Good or bad, they all have a different sound.

All the best.

dr-john

before spending any big $$, I would

1. dump WMP
2. download JRiver (a couple of $$)
3. download the Moon USB HD driver
4. connect via USB A-B
5. start listening to music. 

If you are not happy with the result: forum members have provided quite a few inputs how to invest your money in additional gear.

BTW, the Quobuz player app will detect your DAC. So you are able to stream directly from the app.

Please report back, I'm curious how your final setup will look like.

Cheers, eagledriver

I agree with @juanmanuelfangioii, save your money. The main problem is that you're not using the MiND app to access and playback your music over the 780D. You'll probably need to set up file sharing on the PC that has your music library. Then the MiND app can access, index, and stream those files directly to the DAC.

I took a look at the 780D manual and it mentions none of this. Did you buy from a dealer? They should've helped set this up for you.

Streaming is so joyful, convenient.  Initially when I started streaming music, the sound quality is not comparable to cds/SACD. Definitely. But after I upgraded to a better Router/MESH/Network Switch for my wifi, it improves tremendously. 
Wow, your Moon Evolution 780D Streaming DSD DAC is already a streamer it seems. Just get NAS connected to your wifi network where yu can store hi-res musics. I did that, it sound better than streamed from Tidal. More dynamic. And stream from IPAD. U can also subsc to Qubuz or Tidal and stream from IPAD. 
 

Remove the PC from playback stream.

As everyone else has said, dumpthe PC, get a quality streamer…..even an iFi or Node is better than what you have

@dr-john You can use a computer to stream with amazing quality. The easier way is to buy a dedicated audio server (really a computer) as mentioned by many others on this thread and be done with. If you are a bit more technically oriented, then you can easily get a CHEAP computer based streaming system setup as I described previously (I did not dive deep in the description).

Most people on Audiogon go the dedicated audio server way and that is a great choice for most. Though this is not the way I do it.

BTW - I was also curious about the elephant in the room. Why use the Windows media server app if you have MIND2?

You’re getting a wide variety of advice here, some good and some bad.

with the price of the rest of your system, it would be a gigantic waste to keep an ordinary PC in the chain.

 I’ve found that Roon running on a separate dedicated server (like a Nucleus or NUC) feeding the player through Ethernet and the player feeding the DAC through USB is best.  AND turn off the Roon DSP and volume control in the Roon settings.  Makes a huge difference.

A quality Ethernet cable and USB cable help a lot, too.

The Mind2 interface and streamer in your 780 are easy to use. Down load the app on your IPad and connect your 790 to your network wi-fi or Ethernet.

Well you have found what  I have found it is plain and simple very hard to get a streamer close to a high quality  cd player. From what I have heard of streaming  and the cd player you have good luck finding something  as good. 

@OP

As already told by many, obviously your issue is streaming from your PC, you need a separate streamer. However you don't need to pay 5k or more for it as many recommend. Take a look at my streaming setup in my system. Not counting the DAC, I have only around 2k in it including cables. And it sounds just great. As good as my vinyl rig and cd player, just a slightly different presentation for each. However I did spend a good sum of money building the proper listening room, so I don't have to buy top of the line equipment or accessories to make up for the shortcomings of the listening environment. Foundation first.

Kill your PC, almost anything will be an improvement. I’m only one step ahead of you. I ran a stripped and optimized Windows laptop streaming Tidal. I upgraded the USB cables 3 times and had a noticeable difference. I recently switched the laptop for a Pro Ject Streambox Ultra II, it was a major improvement. Now consider that the people above me have listed some significantly better equipment and they are  experiencing better results than me ! Small Green computer, Audio Troy are solid people that know their stuff. Also in retrospect I have a $2000 Shiit DAC and the Project is $800. Then ad 1 audiophile power cable for the DAC and a linear power supply for the Project and a $300 USB cable , your at $4K  ! If I had a do over I’d get a complete unit in the $5K range. FWIW, I have a nice Thorens TT and a good cartridge, and I enjoy the SQ of streamed music as much, and it’s a lot more convenient. Happy Listening, Mike B. 

You don't need Roon or a high priced streamer. If you can't figure out how to make the streamer you have work, ask for help. Or just accept the BAD sound.

So you didn’t tell us the streaming source, streaming format, or player settings. You didn’t mention what you’ve done to isolate ground and noise.

Kinda like asking about your vinyl playback setup and saying "33 1/ rpm"

I'd be very wary about WMP in any serious chain,,,, older versions didnt even support USB high res audio media format 2.. the absolute basics

Learn ye about digital!

Dr John,

Try Qobuz, even on a laptop feeding a DAC via USB should be decent enough. You can chase improvements by throwing a lot of money at the problem, and you should see some minor benefits. A very good CD player is going to sound more musically complete and satisfying in my experience. I do stream music because it is so convenient, and the results can be very good indeed. Comparing albums streamed with same albums on my CD player sounds more complete on CD though. 

Almost free experiment to try first: get the Minimserver program onto your PC. It will take the place of WMP. You may want to get BubbleUpNP if you have an Android device, too, which you would use as a convenient way to select the stream or file.

@fuzztone 

@audiotroy 

@kota1 

@oddiofyl 

@carlsbad 

@fuzztone 

@lalitk 

 +1

Start with you ditching both the PC and its Windows Media Player as your source and get a quality build and quality performance streamer/player/server.

I'm a bit confused here Mind2 is a streamer and they have a proprietary app so why is Windows Media player involved at all?

@audiotroy calling BS as I can hear no difference streaming from my Innuos Statement and the Mind2 in my 680D. Crystal freaking clear on matter the streaming source, Using USB, RCA, AES, XLR all sound clear and tone in neutral. 

I would use the Mind2 software or Roon and get the Windows Media out of the chain as Mr @lalitk said. Have you done any firm wear updates on your 780 through the Mind2 software?  

Sorry peddlers bother me. 

@yyzsantabarbara , thanks, I didn’t know that about either roon or jriver, never used convolution and if you primarily stream, great.

many times its the built in streamer.

We have upgraded clients to our 432Evos ervers via rheir ultra high quality usb output which usually gives you the warmth and body you are seeking the 432Evo servers empoly unique software tunning which creates a more analog like presentation. Dave and Troy Audio intellect nj us importers 432EVO music servers

@kota1 If you go with ROON or JRiver you can have the very best room correction in the world. That is software-based convolution filter that runs on the ROON (or JRvier) server. Only negative is that it only works for streaming, not turntables, tuners, or other analog pieces. This is where an audio gear-based DSP solution would work, though it would not be as powerful as the Convolution filter.

The Convolution filter is generated by using third party DSP software. The Convolution filter is built to a defined standard interface that ROON and JRiver speak. Analogous to the ROON RATT protocol for audio gear.

If you are going with a dedicated streamer get one with room correction software built in like the NAD C658 (dirac) or the Paradigm PW Link (ARC). You can do things with room correction that you can not do with a preamp or a DAC. It will not do miracles in a bad room but in a decent or good room it is excellent.

You need something like the Aurender N20.    I just picked up their N200 and its awesome