SR Tuning Discs, Psychoacoustic Bias and Listening Fatigue

I am sorry I used the term snake oil at this point in the discussion. But I DID acknowledge clearly more than once that just because I don’t hear it doesn’t mean it’s universally true for everyone. 

If it works or doesn't work in your system does NOT mean it will work/not work in someone else's system. There are no absolutes in this hobby. I literally cringe when someone uses the term "Snake Oil". 

Buy it, try it, if you don't like it, return it.

+1 @coralkong 

At a major audio show, SR tuning dots were demonstrated. I couldn’t hear before and after differences, but I did NOT jump to the conclusion that MY experience is Universal Truth.  These tweaks are relatively inexpensive, so one shouldn’t expect “transformative” changes.

Bandying the term “snake oil” implies no benefit and the manufacturer is dishonest, but the truth is it “may” be beneficial or not, it depends on one’s audio chain transparency, room conditions, and hearing ability.  And no, unlike some I don’t make the baseless claim my hearing ability determines universal truth.  

😁🎶

I wonder if listening "deadly serious" might be deleterious to your objective.

Yes. Understood. Thanks. I am open minded, despite that I don’t sound that way with these SR discs. Couldn’t help but poke a little fun at the whole “just use the sticky putty to affix the Tuning Disc to your [fancy] cable” thing. 😁. As a dedicated audiophile though, I took the listening experiment deadly serious though. As I always do when critically listening. 

@tlcocks I certainly was not referring to your review in my comment.  I found your comments open-minded and helpful. I appreciate you sharing your experience. The comments that put me off are those that treat other peoples’ curiosities, experiments and interests as ridiculous. 

@wesheadley You described my evaluation procedure to the T! Cheers.

@hce1 -- Thank you. Apology accepted. I have been an audiophile for nearly my entire life, purely for the love of music. I have tried many types of tweaks over the years with an open mind -- always an open mind. My policy is to live with a system change for a while before making a judgement on it. Then, if I believe that I’ve made a true improvement, to remove the tweak and live with that a while. Things like better cables (better is not equated to ever ascending prices) prove themselves out over time -- so when they’re removed, it’s often easy to hear what’s now missing from the presentation. The most obvious tweaks that I’ve made almost aways involve the listening space itself. Improving EM noise levels, reflections, etc. Sometimes you just don’t know what you have improved until you take it away and live for a time with the absence. Some things are obvious and can be heard immediately when introduced and then later removed. Those I put back. If I have to reason and argue with myself over a tweak’s impact of the sound I learned that this, for me, is a sign that it probably doesn’t need to be there. If that’s the case, then I err on the side of keeping it simple over adding more complexity to achieve an uncertain benefit. Finally, until the room itself has been tuned to it’s maximum potential, my experience has been that it’s better to put the effort there -- even if that’s (usually) not as much fun as searching for that elusive silver bullet.

And I don’t want to mock. I really don’t. So I did take the task seriously and really really tried to hear a benefit. But didn’t. Either straight signal or with a high end studio analog mastering EQ with W shaped curve in signal path.   That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It simply means I didn’t hear it. It MIGHT mean it doesn’t exist however…

To the mocking part…c’mon folks!!  This is HIGH END AUDIO!  We are paying thousands for gear all the time!  SR wants to use sticky PUTTY to attach the tiny disc to the cable!  They and others have said it’s best at or near the terminal source end. Just incorporate it into cable design, so it’s aesthetically pleasing!  It’s ridiculous!  Sheesh, SR could REALLY rake in big bucks by doing exactly that but offering different location options on the cable. Which undoubtedly invite many enthusiastic souls to spend inordinate amounts of money buying many more cables than they need. Wouldn’t SR love THAT boost in profits. Regarding loaner batch of three, I bought Shunyata Theta. Sounded best. With or without disc and putty!

@wesheadley As I said in my previous post, I was making no accusations against you. The subject of our discussion is one that tends to generate dismissive and mocking comments, which I find unpleasant and inappropriate. I feared you might misunderstand my general comment about those posts as a personal one. It was not directed at anything you said. Please accept my apology for the confusion.

Funny, yes…not nearly as funny as the notion of taking a tiny carbon disk, well less than the diameter of dime, and affixing it with sticky putty to a nice cable to confer an audible benefit.  I honestly tried though over days to hear a benefit. Just did not. 

Audiophile know thyself… and it’s called ear brain… for a reason

@hce1 - I never intended to denigrate anyone with my criticisms, and looking at what I wrote, I can't see where I did that. I know for a fact that some cable companies are in fact making obscene margins with very questionable product claims. This is not research that trickles down either. Each unproven claim is based upon (as a rule) an untested theory. This is no different than pointing out that the electronic devices used to find spirits or ghosts, don't. Despite the belief by the many people that buy them to the contrary.

I'm sorry you find my criticisms crass and disrespectful. They aren't intended that way. Is this AG forum only for "true believers"? I think there is room for a more skeptical POV in the mix. It's not negative. It is anything but. I believe that people who haven't formed an opinion on this thing or that in this hobby deserve to hear more than just one side of a claim about "tweaks" -- many of which do work and make a real difference (system by system, room by room).

Just because you saw it does not make it real. Just because you heard it does not make it real. That is freedom. That IS open-minded.

My solution:

Do not buy anything...

Learn basic acoustics...

Be inspired by "tweaks" sellers but instead of buying, design your own...

If i  could everyone can...

Discussions about snake oil or biases are endless deadend...

Be creative and BEFORE buying upgrade tweak , experiment ...

The greatest joy is enjoying something you create yourself, not something you paid for .

This thread is funny. 

@wesheadley You seem to be conflating three distinct points. First, unconventional tweaks or other system components not grounded in scientific theory or results are likely bogus. I disagree on two counts. First, the world is a mysterious place and science understands very little of it. Second, much scientific theory is stimulated by anomalous empirical discoveries, and we may soon find scientific studies exploring and confirming some of the observations we make as devotees of our hobby.

Your second point is that my experiences with group listening sessions is contaminated by group bias or group think. I can’t deny that completely. Peer pressure is real and it is potent! What’s worse is it becomes more important as the conversation progresses. Inevitably, opinions tend to blend. But, we are not a mob; we are a group of informed and interested individuals with our own expectations and opinions. There always is a variety of observations and conclusions. The group bias is not nearly as powerful as you envision.

Your third point, that the costs of some improvements in product categories are overpriced by the companies that offer them in the market, is noncontroversial to me; though, i’m sympathetic and somewhat receptive to the argument that those costs often go into research and development that benefits the entire audiophile community in the long run. I’m making no accusations here, but I feel compelled to add that I don’t see the value in denigrating someone who chooses to spend their money for marginal improvements in their sound. I feel such criticism is both crass and disrespectful.

@hce1 -- There's all kinds of bias, including group bias. I'm just saying that without any empirical corroboration, many of these tweaks that rely upon untested pseudoscience are more likely confirmation bias and/or placebo effect than anything else. That is the simplest explanation. Take the bias that extremely expensive high-end cable sound better than well made cables of comparably materials, like OF copper, using quality connectors assembled properly that happen to cost vastly less. That a $5000 power cable is, for example, simply audibly superior to a $300 power cable. I do not believe there has ever been a blind test -- ever -- that has born this out -- that the differences are in fact improvements and therefore justify the stupid money pricing of many of them -- backed up by scientific sounding nonsense.  People want to believe in these things, that is clear, and I think many (not all) of these types of companies are gouging their customers with their bogus claims.

@wesheadley I can’t agree with your point. I belong to a large audiophile “club” including folks with vastly different preferences, tastes, expectations and biases. So, I’ve seen hugely different responses to new audio experiences, particularly in the tweaks and cables domains. In my experience auditioning tweaks and cables over the years, I have found the negative bias of those who believe only in measurement as a valid indicator of performance is far more intractable than the expectation bias the owner of a tweak or cable might have. Indeed, I rarely have encountered strong positive expectations where tweaks and cables are concerned. Most of my fellow listeners take a try it and see attitude. After all, if the experiment fails, the item can be returned. But, there is always someone in the group who strongly, and I mean strongly, denies the possibility that tweaks or cables make a difference, even when most in the room hear one.

The argument for positive expectation bias, that people hear what they want hear, is nonsensical to me. I don’t remember ever witnessing somebody insisting a new tweak in their system improves system performance when no one else hears it. After all, who can be fooled by expectation bias over the long haul, when their system continues to suffer from sonic imperfections the tweak they purchased was designed to correct. To my mind, the psychoacoustic argument hasn’t even face validity, let alone empirical reliability.
 

Of course, this is not to say that all tweaks work in all systems, or even that any given tweak works in any system at all. I’m only saying that outright dismissal of the possibility of an audible effect is far more immovable than the expectation that a tweak will, rather than might, work in a given system and room.

This post gives me reading fatigue.

I have a Don Sachs preamp, & one day I got a bug up my ass & swapped from existing feet to Maple footers & made no significant sound change. I had a set of Panega's feet laying around & tried those, & instantaneously, the music opened up. Tried that a few more times to see if I was nuts but, I haven't move them since.

Who knows if the discs really make any difference? But negative bias is far less likely than good old positive confirmation bias and the venerable placebo effect. What bothers me is that many of these products have stratospheric profit margins because that is the surest way to trigger confirmation bias-- price it high and lard it up with pseudo-scientific claims that are next to, if not impossible to prove or even comprehend. Just my opinion, but most would be far better off if they focused on room acoustics before going for a ride down twisted tweak road.

I am open to negative bias. That’s why since initially posting I’ve checked over serial days a few times. Same results. Trust me, I was very open minded to a change being heard. I certainly hear not subtle differences between two digital coaxial cables

A couple of thoughts here on "psychoacoustics":

We are overlooking the aspect of NEGATIVE BIAS, whereas a proposed concept "pegs the needle on our BS meter" yet produced clearly audible benefits.  I'm sure I'm not alone when mentally evaluating the viability of a new "tweak" with a high degree of skepticism, only to discover very positive (mind blowing?) results in many cases.  This would certainly remove the psychoacoustics element of "wanting it to sound better" from the equation, and apply "rational subjectivity" to the testing.

The term "Snake Oil" implies the intent to defraud through deceptive practices.  I would submit that the vast majority of manufacturers make a good faith effort to provide legitimate sonic benefits of their products and have done their due diligence.  Products that have endured for generations have, in my opinion, reduced the "snake oil prospect" to a number approaching zero.  "Snake oil" products are rare, and an exception in this industry.

I have no doubt that some audio enthusiasts have inserted something "new" into their systems with no sonic benefit.  They HEARD what they HEARD.  And, on the opposite end of the spectrum, the same identical "tweak" was clearly beneficial in another system.  And, they HEARD what they HEARD.  it doesn't make one or the other right or wrong.  Just an entirely different set of variables -- including our ears.

Tried them as part of the cable loaner program with The Cable Company. Didn’t buy. 

If you can’t return the SR Tuning Discs, I will buy them from you.

The tweak that really works is PURON from Vera Fi.

If it works or doesn't work in your system does NOT mean it will work/not work in someone else's system. There are no absolutes in this hobby. I literally cringe when someone uses the term "Snake Oil". 

Buy it, try it, if you don't like it, return it.

Whether its snake oil, effective or just plain difference may be difficult to discern. Ultimately, I've come to the conclusion if it stays over the long term a positive difference is being heard. Been through plenty of tweaks over the decades, most come and go, this A/B over a long term, some stay, most have gone into unused tweak box.

     No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition.   There are simply too many variables.

     LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc)  will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.   

     Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose by trying (experimenting with) such.     

     Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.       

     For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena that none of the best minds could fathom, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement that could explain it.     

     Theories have never proven or disproven anything.  It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.   

     IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, or- piques the curiosity, FOR YOURSELF.         

                                             Happy listening!

I think many of the "night-and-day differences" are attributable to head position, mood, expectation bias, gullibility, nasal conditions, and a host of other issues not related to audio quality.  Companies like Synergistic Research, Furutech, Pangea, and others play on this and prey on the naivete and gullibility of audiophiles.  It's basically what the entire snake oil industry is built on.  

Good advice. Don’t buy the tuning discs. Instead save up for a full loom of the Synergistic Research Atmosphere signal cables - with the tuning modules and ground leads. After 20+ years of cable swapping, my system sounds better than ever when they were added

I have 2 sets of HFT transducers mounted on the walls of my main listening room. They actually work, and made the soundstage a lot wider and bolder. I tried them in the basement, and they made zero difference down there, so i sent back the ones i didn't use.

It seems like this company is becoming a gimmick shop more than anything else.

Oh I am already well accustomed to this jungle!

"Psycho acoustics" is probably a much more profound subject than many people are willing to give real attention to. The SR discs appear to be discs of nothing more than carbon which as we all know is quite electrically conductive, so it wouldn't be at all surprising if placing them in the vicinity of electrical components might have some field effects. On the other hand, they may be made of the same stuff in powder form that inhabits their fuses, and I have in the past been impressed with the performance of the audio fuses especially the "Purple" ones.

It is a jungle out there. Welcome to the jungle.
 

@coralkong , just was sharing my experience and my method. I recommend instead of getting upset just take what I said with a grain of salt. 

I'm really starting to get tired of this site. No offense, but who cares? Return them if you don't like them. You have 30 days.

My gear is Bryson B135 SST2 Integrated Amp with respectable onboard DAC (see Mike Lavorgna of Twittering Machines comments), Auralic Aries Dual Femto streamer connected to integrated with Shunyata Theta digital cable, Martin Logan Montage with Transparent Music Link Plus speaker cable.  The integrated has a tape loop where I connect a Charter Oak PEQ-1 studio analog EQ via Cardas Clear Sky ‘round trip’ cabling. I cut that loop in and out to taste and mood and depending upon the material listened to by simply toggling the monitor button on the Bryston remote from the listening position. 
Thanks.