This is my first post here, just getting involved in the earlier stages of serious stuff. I recently bought a pair of Piega p4L MKll speakers. They sound great, at least according to my perhaps unsophisticated ears.
My question/problem: The speakers have spikes on them that cannot be removed because the previous owner glued them to the base. Becaue of the spikes, the speakers are very unstable on the carpet in my listening room. I need something that the spikes will go into so that the speaker towers will be more stable. So far, neither plywood nor small metal speaker spike pads have worked. Am now considering carbon speaker spike pads and hockey pucks to get the spikes into and then a bigger base, such as wood or even granite/marble.
I would greatly appreciate any suggestions that would solve this problem.
Sorry I’m so late to the discussion. I just saw this.
If I were in the same boat, the first thing I would do is go to s store that sells bricks/patio pavers/ blocks and look for the concrete formed, big, patio blocks. They usually have designs on the top, but you should be able to work around that. Or, look for blocks with a nice, flat underside.
These blocks usually come in two sizes. The regular size is about 18”x18”x2” and weigh about 23 lbs. The larger size blocks are 24”x24”x2” and weight about 42 lbs.
Get yourself a pair of those and experiment with the different ideas, If you find an idea that sounds good to you, then you can get fancy and buy some granite. Who knows, you might decide your speakers on top of concrete gives you the sound you desire.
Competitively priced with the Townsends is the Boenicke Swingbase, which has been around since 2010. 6moons has a preview for a review going on and here's a video of the base in action:
So many ways to skin the cat. No intent to highjack this thread but to point out that if one wants to really isolate something from below, this is one alternative that goes even farther than springs.
Back to the original topic, the current plan is to drill a hole into eight hockey pucks (four per speaker) and put the spikes into them. Then put the speakers on two slabs of granite or marble. I sent an email to Herbie of Herbie's Hush Puckies last week and called too. No reply so far.
@jtcf, The silliest thing you could possibly do to a subwoofer is put it on anything but a very sturdy floor. Put your hand on the sub playing a bass heavy number. That vibration you feel is distortion. In a perfect world you would not be able to feel anything. Some of the best subs come remarkably close if placed on a solid floor. None of these have a single driver. The Newtonian forces of a single sub driver shaking at 20 Hz will vibrate even the heaviest enclosure.
@michaellent, Amplitude is essentially volume but referring to output level across the frequency spectrum. It is a essentially a different way of describing frequency response. An equalizer adjusts amplitude at specific frequencies with a specific Q.
@dadorkthe subdudes are large enough to accommodate the outriggers? I've experimented with using two platforms to fit under my subs so the feet would all rest on top and it didn't work so well. Not enough weight to compress the foam properly. Think about some heavy ceramic tiles or patio tiles to try.
@mijostyn I am in agreement with you regarding relative masses. A concrete screed laid on good foundations in the ground will always be far heavier than any speaker as it is coupled to the mass of the Earth. For a concrete screed intimately attached to the frame of a large apartment building, again the mass of the structure will be much heavier than the speaker.
ZU speakers are known to have a bizarre impedance curve that works in real life. Might this have something to do with what I like with ZU and disengagement with the floor?
I have a suspended wooden floor with carpet. I recently swapped out OEM spikes for Dayton Audio outriggers which made leveling a lot easier and I think it improved the sound. My question is this- I have a pair of Auralex SubDude's which are MDF over some type of cushion. If I put these under the outriggers, wouldn't I have the best of both worlds? They would be spiked to something that wouldn't allow them to move, easily adjustable for leveling and they wouldn't be transferring resonance to the floor.
@michaellent, you change the amplitude response of the speaker when you raise it off the floor and you prefer that response. Just as many people are going to think it worse! There are much better ways to deal with amplitude without disconnecting the speaker from the floor. As long as the floor is significantly more massive than the speaker's drivers it is much better to spike the speaker to the floor. This is easy to demonstrate with test signals and a measurement microphone.
My sound studio IS in the basement on a concrete slab. I noticed MASSIVE improvement after separating the speaker from the slab the way I described doing it. Magic?
@michaellent Please read my previous post. If the floor is concrete laid on the ground the mass of the Earth will absorb all forces from the speaker via the spikes. The forces can only bounce back to the speaker if the Earth is moved by those forces. But as I say the Earth will not be moved because of the huge mass discrepancy between it and the speaker. It will simply absorb the forces.
Flat dwellers in big modern blocks with concrete frames standing on piles driven into the Earth and concrete floors fixed to the concrete frames will obtain similar benefit.
Putting the speakers on flexible supports that allow the speakers to move will cause far more distortion. Max has made a lot of money by convincing people otherwise. Although those with suspended wooden floors are his legitimate customers and there are plenty of them.
@clearthinker@mijostynare misled. @jtcf and @vinylvalethave the correct understanding. If the speakers are connected to the floor, then the vibrations are passed out of the speakers through the spike, and then turn into the floor, then back into the spike and back into the speaker. That is real distortion.
Townshend products, cones, pucks, et al, break the floor, connection from the speakers. These products cost a s* load of money and receive the kudos they do, because they work. I don’t see anybody advertising spikes, by themselves, as a great solution. No one is selling spikes for $2k. If they worked, speaker manufactures would charge for them. Using spikes on a cutting board would be better than setting them on the floor.
I have no dog in this fight. No relationship to any of these manufacturers. I use spikes on a wood support which is spiked to as well. Double spiking if you would, but my speakers are not connected to the floor directly with spikes.
@joshua43214 I never said spike speakers to suspended wooden floors. Indeed I said don't spike speakers to suspended wooden floors. For the reason you state.
But if, as I do, you spike speakers to a concrete slab laid on a screed in the ground the vibrations in the speakers caused by the music signal will be damped by the mass of the Earth which is 5.972 × 10^24 kg. If we take the speaker as having mass of 100kg, then the small movement in the speaker will cause a movement of the Earth that is 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times smaller. I think we can take that as no movement.
The statement near the end of your post is therefore correct, save that you can replace 'often' with 'always'.
If you use those black rubber and cork pads be aware that the black rubber can bleed into any wood surface they're left on for a length of time. I had permanent black squares that were left when pads like that were used between my speakers and a maple living room floor.
Spikes are for coupling, if you have a suspended wooden floor, it will cause the entire floor to resonate.
I tested both coupling and decoupling my speakers, and decoupled was better by far on my suspended wooden floor.
As for the speaker moving? Some folks have invoked the Great Isaac Newton, but didn't bother to do any Newtonian Science.
Your speakers weighs 14kg, a typical 15cm paper driver has about 8.5g (0.0085kg) of moving mass and an extension of about 4mm.
F = mass*acceleration
Work = Force*distance or
Work = mass*acceleration*distance
The force acting on the cone and the speaker body are equal and opposite, and the work done by the cone on the speaker is expressed as:
your speaker will move 2.5 microns at full excursion.
This is in a frictionless un-damped setting.
If you are curious, a 12" woofer typically has a moving mass of about 100g, or about 11.7 times the mass of a 6" cone. In this case, the same enclosure would move about 30microns, which is in the vicinity of a 12MHz sound wave.
We get enough hand-waving junk science from Amir over at ASR, let's not infect this fine forum with more of the same nonsense.
Spiking to a concrete floor often improves the damping of a speaker, isolating a speaker from a suspended floor improves the damping of the floor.
What works best in your system depends on your system and room.
I like the idea of setting the speakers on a board of some kind be it a cutting board or a hunk of MDF. Use your feet of choice on the board, spikes will require you to drill some holes and add inserts, isolators can be inexpensive "pucks" you put under the board. I suggest these things
It is possible they are already thicker than your spikes are long and you wont need a platform at all, or maybe you can add something under them like machine felt or heavy cardboard to give them a bit of extra lift.
I probably would not go with anything fancy, these are (according to the Piega manual) entry level speakers.
Actually, it doesn’t matter if they have four as long as the cones are taller than the spikes, but do use only three cones of you decide to try this. The cones don’t have to be attached. The cones have flat upper surfaces, so the speakers simply rest on them. The original metal TipToes or similar were about 1.5 in. in diameter. Alternatively, you could simply use double sided tape to secure them lightly or a bit of Bluetac. It’s the same principle as using cones under electronic components. It works well.
The speakers have four spikes each. How would the cones be attached to the speakers? I would like to include a photo of the spikes but don't see how to do. Thanks.
As some have stated, you want to have solid contact with the floor below; so, yes, the spikes have to pierce the carpet. I don’t believe that a wood platform, even slate (or other stone) on top of the carpet will be completely free of rocking even with the weight of the speaker placed on it. Additionally, you don’t want for the bottoms of the speakers to be making much (if any) contact with the carpet below which will serve to dampen the speaker. My suggestion: get cones with sharp enough points to pierce the carpet and that are taller than the spikes on the speakers now; original tall TipToes come to mind. They don’t have to be glued on or screwed in to get most of the benefit. On the assumption that you currently have three spikes per side, simply reverse the 2&1 arrangement. If you currently have two spikes in the back, put one cone in the back and two in the front; or, vice versa. Leave the spikes as they are. Good luck.
To be clear, the spikes are not removable for me because they are strongly glued onto the speakers. If someone knows how to loosen the powerful glue, please help. Otherwise I need to sink the spikes into something that then can be put on a carpet or on a base that goes on the carpet.
My speakers are Hartley Reference, yes the one with the 24" woofers (each powered by ARC SS amps running as mono blocks in a tri-amp system).
They weigh about 300 lbs each. I use teflon footers that are about 1.25" in diameter so that I can move them without tearing up the new heavy duty vinyl plank flooring over concrete.
As an experiment I balanced a nickel on edge on each speaker. Actually I thought that they wouldn't last one listening session. Well to my delight and amazement they remained exactly where I put them for over a month. Okay enough already, I got tired of looking at them.
Just one guys experience, couple...decouple...whatever sounds best to you.
Wouldn't it make more sense to spike the speakers into something that dissipates the energy before it reaches the floor? If one insists on spikes why ignore the floor vibrations as if it doesn't matter?
@vinylvalet.@clearthinkeris absolutely correct. Any movement of the speaker enclosure is distortion. This occurs mainly in the bass. Put your hand on the speaker while playing a bass heavy number. That vibration you feel is distortion. The floor to the speaker is analogous to the tonearm to the cartridge. The floor has to absorb the energy transmitted by the speaker without reflecting it back. Admittedly, some floors are better at this than others but, that is a floor problem not a speaker problem.
All Speakers producing bass have to be anchored to the floor. Any other approach is absurd. The OPM should take this into account and anchor his speakers to the floor. If the spikes are too short to make it down to the floor then you need longer ones. If you feel uncomfortable doing this yourself find someone that is not. I would gladly do it for you if you live in New England.
Simply not correct. Credo is wrong. Its representative says speakers need to be isolated from vibration by being decoupled. But this involves supporting them on a system that allows the speakers to move. The movement of the elements in the speaker that transmit sound creates forces upon the the frame and fixed structure of the speaker. This allows the speaker body to move in response. Newton's third law I think. If the speakers were spiked to something solid that movement would not occur. The movement of the speaker body moves the mounts of the sound transmitting elements that moves the sound transmitting element. This movement is not driven by the music signal. Accordingly it smears the sound for the listener. This will be heard mainly as inconsistency in the sound stage.
Another solution is to cut a length of 2 x4 into four blocks or even just two lengths for each speaker.Drill holes to set the spikes in then use your choice of feet or felt pads on the wood feet.Tall rubber feet for heavy appliances could also be used instead of wood.Cardboard would work too.
The other approach, based on discussions above, involves Herbie's Hush Puckies on granite. This seems the most logical to me. I was considering actual hockey pucks. I have sent an email to Herbie, no reply yet. As you may have noticed, it is harder to get businesses (or individuals) to answer the phone these days.
Thanks again. I appreciate these and any other suggestions. Will let you know how it goes. (Not an empty promise.)
The Piegas weigh about 40 lbs. each, not as heavy as most. The cardboard approach might work. I tried it before but didn't go the distance with awl and hammer. will give it a try.
I have spikes on my floorstanders. I pierced them through thick berber carpet and pad by rocking them in place until they made contact with the concrete floor.
Next step is levelling.
I suspect the OP’s issue is that the spikes are glued in and not adjustable.
Spikes have to be adjusted so that the speaker is level and that all 4 make proper contact with the floor. Otherwise the speaker will be unstable regardless of carpet or no carpet.
OP- if you have access to an industrial heat gun you can heat the glue and when it softens use a set of vice grip to loosen the threads and remove them. Once they become adjustable again try to pierce through the carpet and then adjust for level and stability.
How much do these Piega p4L MKll weigh that they don't go through the carpet!
Anyway you stated you're not worried about the rug or the floor. GOOD!
Get the speakers placed exactly where you want them.
Get some cardboard (two pizza box tops would be perfect) cut the box tops in half.
First speaker...lean it back and put the a piece of cardboard under the front, stand the speaker back upright. Repeat with rear of speaker. Tape the cardboard to the carpet. Lean the speaker back again and using the holes in the cardboard as guides get a sturdy awl and hammer and pound the awl through holes. Do the back of the speaker. Repeat leaning procedure to get the cardboard out.
Rinse, repeat on second speaker with the new cardboard.
Heavy and stable base is needed for speakers placement. Go to granite cutting shop near you and custom order a couple granite plates. Avoid fancy expensive city stores cause it will cost you a lot, find some granite wear house outside the city line. I ordered my 20 x 20 x 1,5 inch plates $40 each, but it was years ago. Totally satisfied with the results. If you don’t want to go complicated way with custom order, Home Depot has pre cut granite tiles 18x18 inch, those tiles are not so thick and heavy, but also could do the job, I use them with great results for my components placement.
@phil59, turn the speaker upside down get a piece of heavy duty tin foil and press it down over the spikes to protect the bottom of your speakers. Find out if the spikes have a stud that is screwed into the speaker. My guess is they do.
Take a smallish hammer and lay the head flat on the tin foil and tap each spike from all directions to loosen it the get a Channel lock wrench and use it to unscrew each spike. Now replace then with longer spikes. Use three spikes not four!! If he used four fill in the rear holes with plastic wood the right color and put the third foot in the middle.
When placing the loudspeaker you have to get the spikes all the way through the carpet and padding to the wood underneath. Hold the speaker steady and using a step stool have your wife press down on the speaker right in the middle with a stocking foot while you hold the speaker and spot. She could stand on it if she has to. That should set the speaker in place and you should be good to go.
If you have a concrete floor it's best to get the spikes through to that. But if the floor is wood or you can't or won't get the spikes through to concrete, stay with granite marble or other stone. Specific gravity is much higher than butcher blocks so they are less big and ugly for the same stability offered. I have a huge marble base raised on spikes for all my source and pre-amp gear and it looks great with its white and grey swirly colouring.
Don't use any flexible support under the spikes, they just allow the speakers another layer of movement that will blur your soundstage.
I’d go with the granite/marble but I’d also use the Hush Puppies or your speakers could easily slide off the stone if someone bumps into them. Or, you could just try the Hush Puppies alone first and see how that works — you can always add the granite/marble later if you want. I would.
Wow, some great ideas here. Replies to some posts:
Can't contact original owner (not the seller to me). He is no longer with us.
Anything involving spike removal is not feasible either logistically or it's beyond my capability or my unwillingness to make this a life commitment.
So how to deal with the spikes. They do not go through the carpet. Can I simply rest sharp spikes on granite or marble? Should I force them into a soft wood base? Should I try something like the Hush Puppies recommended above? Again, this is not about protecting the floor or carpet, it is how to stabilize the speakers that have spikes which can't be removed.
Thank you to everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.
Why not grind down the current spikes flush with base. Then drill new holes and put in threaded inserts and they will allow you to add feet or iso pods.
My understanding is that you do not want have spike/fixed connection between the floor and your speakers. That’s why they make so many of those expensive speaker “pods”(Townsend et al), to separate the speaker from the floor.
Butcher blocks. I had moved my older floor standing speakers from a hardwood floor into a small carpeted room. They sounded muffled. I ordered spikes from the manufacturer and two hardwood butcher blocks from amazon. About $100 for all this. Significant improvement and spared me the expense of buying bookshelves with stands.
+2 elliotbnewcombjr.
Not everyone is comfortable with this approach but for the mechanically inclined I would have no issue with this. If however, the glue was inserted into deep holes predrilled into the speaker base, then we might have an issue vs surface mounted. Need to know.
I think the first thing I would do is contact the previous owner of the speakers and ask why the spikes were glued on and what type of adhesive was used. This could give you a clue as how to remove them. It sounds like, more than anything else, your issue is with leveling them, which is why most spikes are threaded into the speaker bases. I'm guessing yours may be stripped or non-existent.
+1 @toro3Pick up a couple slabs of granite or marble from Home Depot and put the Herbie’s Puckies on top. But, if you can afford them, Townshend Seismic products would be all you need and likely greatly improve your sound — read the reviews…
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