Dgarretson - now I understand. Selling high end caps says it all.
Speakers in the 5-6K$ region & their components
Hi all,
This is my 1st post here.
I'm a long time audio enthusiast and even worked in high-end audio sales for a few years a while back, but I've been out of the loop for a few years now. I'm looking now for a new pair of speakers in the 5-6K$ range to replace my current Merlin TSM. The type I'm looking for is a 2 way 6-6.5'' speaker, preferably a floorstander. I know many brands and models and went through a lot of speakers in the past, so my question is a technical one:
I'm looking only for speakers in this range which use high end componenets. which ones are there?
I've already done some research, so here are a few examples of what I mean:
Proac in its response range is using Scanspeak D2604 tweeter (48$/unit).
PMC in its "i" series - Seas 27TFFC (45$/unit).
Spendor, "A" series - Seas 29TFF/W (52$/unit).
I can go on and also bring examples of the woofers used and more speaker brands, but I think the picture is clear. These are all quality units of well acclaimed manufacturers, but are by no means high-end units. Which are?
My research brought me this far to the following (All in my price range):
Kudos audio Super 10/Super20: Seas T29CF-002 tweeter (330$/unit) + a version of Seas W18NX (196$/unit)
Marten Form Floor: Accuton C173-6-095 woofer (over 300$/unit) + a ribbon tweeter I was unable to recognize (anyone?)
Merlin VSM (as second hand only): Dynaudio D330/A tweeter (over 400$ per unit) + Scanspeak 18W/8545-01 (173$/unit).
BTW, my current Merlin TSM is using Morel MDT30 tweeter (80$/unit) + Morel MW166 woofer (124$/unit) and sounds wonderful to my taste, despite a considerable lack of bass (being a sealed- box design).
So, given all that, does anyone have any more ideas for speakers I should consider?
This is my 1st post here.
I'm a long time audio enthusiast and even worked in high-end audio sales for a few years a while back, but I've been out of the loop for a few years now. I'm looking now for a new pair of speakers in the 5-6K$ range to replace my current Merlin TSM. The type I'm looking for is a 2 way 6-6.5'' speaker, preferably a floorstander. I know many brands and models and went through a lot of speakers in the past, so my question is a technical one:
I'm looking only for speakers in this range which use high end componenets. which ones are there?
I've already done some research, so here are a few examples of what I mean:
Proac in its response range is using Scanspeak D2604 tweeter (48$/unit).
PMC in its "i" series - Seas 27TFFC (45$/unit).
Spendor, "A" series - Seas 29TFF/W (52$/unit).
I can go on and also bring examples of the woofers used and more speaker brands, but I think the picture is clear. These are all quality units of well acclaimed manufacturers, but are by no means high-end units. Which are?
My research brought me this far to the following (All in my price range):
Kudos audio Super 10/Super20: Seas T29CF-002 tweeter (330$/unit) + a version of Seas W18NX (196$/unit)
Marten Form Floor: Accuton C173-6-095 woofer (over 300$/unit) + a ribbon tweeter I was unable to recognize (anyone?)
Merlin VSM (as second hand only): Dynaudio D330/A tweeter (over 400$ per unit) + Scanspeak 18W/8545-01 (173$/unit).
BTW, my current Merlin TSM is using Morel MDT30 tweeter (80$/unit) + Morel MW166 woofer (124$/unit) and sounds wonderful to my taste, despite a considerable lack of bass (being a sealed- box design).
So, given all that, does anyone have any more ideas for speakers I should consider?
84 responses Add your response
@timlub +1 !! Look at the LM-1 for instance. The drivers are about $90 / speaker, but I challenge anyone to find fault with the crossover design, or the sound actually, and unlike all commercial speakers, the design docs are open to the world. I’ve also seen commercial makers use inexpensive drivers with extremely good integration and balance, and some use expensive diamond tweeters and end up with.... well, not so good. :) By the way, the LM-1 uses the same tweeter as found in some Krell, older Magico and Sonus Faber designs. It’s not an expensive tweeter at all, but damn nice. :-) By the way @dgarretson - I did use Clarity ESA's in the recommended crossover. :-) I have a feeling you and I should have some drinks if you are in the San Francisco area, we'd get along just swell. Best, Erik |
Timlub, Fully agree on the SB drivers I too find them to be excellent quality and very consistent. I designed a Kit for SB Acoustics as well. http://pbnaudio.com/speakers/speaker-kits/xmax Good Listening Peter |
As one who endeavors to sell capacitors to perhaps the forty or so principal speaker manufacturers in N. America, I've reached the conclusion that the majority of designers focus on drivers, cabinets, and crossover design, with the quality of crossover piece parts a distant fourth in priority. Most OEMs source crossover piece parts out of habit or marginal cost considerations parsed down to a few dollars if not pennies. The more complex the crossover, the sharper the pencil. Moreover, the task of undertaking systematic comparisons between crossover piece parts is daunting and rarely undertaken. But any hobbyist who has made such substitutions understands the gains in this area that reveal the potential of a first rate driver. Personally I wouldn't purchase a speaker from any manufacture who can't articulate the rationale of his choices of these piece parts. ClarityCap OEM Sales |
Well... yes... you can approximate the stellar sound of the WaveTouch Audio Grand Tetons with the GamuT Reference Series, or Nola’s, or PureAudio Project OB’s, or the top of the line Legacy’s, or certainly the Linkwitz Orion’s / LS521’s. But, nothing else comes close for less than 5-10+x the cost of the Grand Tetons. The Grand Teton’s are an assemblge of relatively inexpensive parts that produce sound to rival the best speakers of any type available. And... the facinating thing is the Grand Teton’s present the marvelous sound of open baffle / dipole speakers (which most of these are)... yet... are ported cabinets. Again... it’s the total design that makes the difference... and... of course a designer who is a gifted "artist" and not a scientist or engineer. It is truly an "art" and not a "science." |
So, if you were looking for a $1,500 speaker, my kit, the LM-1, would fit the bill. It will cost between $350 and $500 to build depending on crossover parts or if you build the cabinet yourself. ;) Sounds fantastic, and a great crossover designed by a true gentleman and scholar. << cough cough >> Ok, some of that was a lie, but it's free, and incredibly well measured and documented. Best, Erik |
You know, self-sufficiency can be great, but let the professional designers build speakers and other stuff. I can sometimes argue with Atmasphere here about certain points but I will not argue about how to make a great amp, or any amp for that matter. I don't like so-so quality parts though, but nor would I want or be able to to pay $6k for one driver. But $20, $30 doesn't sound right to me when it comes to expensive and presumably high-end speakers. If they would have to charge $6k instead of $5k while putting better drivers in there, that would be fine with me. Another reason to have fewer but higher quality drivers. And please no 50 cents capacitors and $1 per ten miles wires. |
If you're looking for a floor standing speaker, the VMPS RM30 has dual 6.5 " woofers, 3 ribbon planar mids, a ribbon tweeter, and a 10" passive radiator in each speaker in a slim, but deep cabinet. If you can find a used one with auricaps and silver wiring to the bass, that would be an upgrade. These are 120 lbs. per speaker and have soundcoating on the interior. They are very dynamic, transparent, with great clarity and are adjustable at all frequencies. Used ones would be about $1800-2400 depending on upgrades. Another speaker to check out would be the Evoke Eddie's. It had similar looking drivers (1 each per speaker) but it has more expensive drivers and crossovers--also a very solid cabinet. It is a larger monitor at 24" H, 10" W, and 17" D. The Eddie is new and they are running a special pricing on it until a certain number are sold. |
Hi Roy, So, in general, the retail price of a single speaker is 10x the driver cost. It goes up and down, but that’s it in general. So, it pays to go with a custom-speaker builder for a good design. Taylor, Selah, etc. Otherwise, for a $5,000 pair, on average, you’ll be getting $250worth of parts (retail) in each. There are some exceptional values though, Monitor Audio among them, which I consider very good sounding, but since they make their own drivers, it's quite likely they are actually charging more than 20x a single speaker. Lawrence audio is also another company that has exceptional value in terms of parts cost. NONE of this makes a speaker worth buying though. :) As @bassdude said, the whole package matters. Best, Erik |
"With all due respect" - this is all "such a load of BS!" It's the total design of the baffel, cabinet, drivers, and cross-over that makes the "sum of the parts" sing like nothing else... or... not. I absolutely... guarantee you... that if you try a set of WaveTouch Audio Grand Teton stand-mount monitors... you will sell your Merlins, Harbeths, Wilsons, Marten's, Maggies, and all else! Nothing sounds any better... certainly for the money! Try them - it will cost you nothing if you don't agree... but... you will! |
Personally I’ve found the Merlin VSM a great platform for development. With the designer's unfortunate demise, you can find well-priced used examples. Upgrade caps, resistors, and wires in the crossover and caps, resistors and power supply in the BBAM, and you’ll have about as much as any two-way can offer. |
Other than the Accuton, I've used every driver mentioned. In every case, with good crossover work, the finished product would be very good. I think that your letting the price of a single driver get in the way of the finished product. Peter mentioned one of his kits and it is very good. Not sure that you'd want to go the DIY way at all, but considering your comments on a few parts listed, these should fit the bill. These are Morel Parts, the tweeter is similar to what you listed, except this tweeter offers a bit more detail than the 30. These were designed by Jeff Bagby, a well known and valid speaker designer by any standard. Basic cabinets are included, but you'll need to do some cabinet work to bring the cabinets to the level of a $5000 retail speaker... the speakers and design itself will hold up sonically at that level.... these are $1000 a pair. http://www.parts-express.com/solstice-mltl-reference-tower-speaker-kit--300-708 This might be way off from where you were going, but I thought I'd throw it in. |
At the price level you're considering by necessity there will be compromises. If we were talking about $50k loudspeakers, then there would be no excuse for anything but premium drivers. At the $5k level a loudspeaker designer has to juggle the cost of the driver, cabinet, crossover components, wire and hardware such that the end result still performs well despite not having the best components in every area. Some designers will splurge on drivers and others will spend more in a different area, yet each pathway can yield an excellent, high value loudspeaker. |
The PBN is a very good deal. If you are looking to spend a little less, the Klang Tong Nada would be around $3K, with ScanSpeak Be and 6.5" woofer. You can have it built as a floor stander by TaylorSpeakers.com or as a stand mount. Commercially, based on parts quality, this is a $20K speaker system if it had basic parts. With the upgraded Mundorf caps it would be higher. Comparing the PBN and Klang Tong kits to commercial speakers, Gryphon uses the same line of woofers, and the current Magico tweeters are built on the same tweeter motor. The impedance of the KT is easier to drive. Without hearing it in the room it’s hard to tell, but for me the PBN may be a little too flat, especially in the bass, whiel the KT has a bit of a boost I would probably prefer. However, this is not very accurate criticism to make via charts alone. The 3-way design and dual woofers of the PBN will give you a lot more dynamic range, but the KT will really amaze you all by itself. :) I say this owning similar woofers in my reference system. Best, Erik |
http://pbnaudio.com/speakers/speaker-kits/scanspeak-b741 Build your own, the above kit use the very best drivers ScanSpeak has to offer. It however also includes a fully developed Cross-Over Schematic, that ensures the drivers work together properly - you can go as crazy as you want on parts quality here - an All Duelund CAST component Crossover ? :-) Good Listening Peter |
I don't think that the premise is faulty, it is just not the only one possible. But I would be cautious about price/performance correlation. High quality is always expensive but average quality can be expensive as well. I too believe that the drivers themselves are the most important part of a speaker. $20 drivers in $5000 speakers? No thank you. And I doubt that any designer can make them sound spectacular, pretty good perhaps but nothing more. |
Scansonic MB-3.5 ($5300) or MB-5 ($6950)? Personally at $5995 I'd go for the Magneplanar 3.7i. Room filling line source, speaks with one voice, large radiating area (scales up and down well), and no box, hence no boxy resonances. |
Thank you both for your decisive opinion, but my experience (which included working closely with a speakers & drivers manufacturers) suggests otherwise. The cabinet is very important and by no means am I looking for speakers with inferior cabinets. It all has to be good- design, drivers and cabinets- save none. And no cabinet/design can compensate for the limits of a mediocre driver. Simple example: Try to play loudly an uncompressed kick drum recording on a 2 way speaker with Scanspeak P17WJ00- an inexpensive 6.5’’ woofer of decent (but not great) performance, popular with several speaker brands. The result may be the destruction of the driver. Why? because it doesn’t have enough excursion, it’s rubber surroundings are too thin and it lacks magnet power. For the same reasons, even before the breaking point, the kick drum won’t sound very punchy. Try the same with Scanspeak 18W/8545-01 (found in the Merlin VSM and Proac 2.5), or any driver from the morel MW series, and it’ll eat it without salt and sound wonderful. Why? Strong thick surrounds, plenty of magnet power and long linear excursion. and these things cost more. In this example, the driver, given a 2 Way design, is a clear limiting factor that no cabinet or design can compensate. Same goes with driver’s bandwith, inherent distortions and what not. And I want as little limiting factors in my speaker components as possible. So, recommendations, anyone? BTW, the Fritz’s look good and I’ve never heard about them before. |
Your premise is faulty. For most loudspeakers the most expensive component by far is the cabinet. Look at your Merlins, or anything by Wilson, Sonus Faber, B&W, YG, Magico and others. They all use good drivers, some even custom made, but not necessarily the best (most expensive?) ones. The talent of the design team overwhelms driver cost as the major contributor to a loudspeaker's final sound quality. |
Fritz speakers comes to mind. Most of his models have higher end drivers. Although mostly known for his stand mount models I think he does offer floor standing versions of many of his speakers. Although I have never personally listened to any of his speakers I have been curious to try them out. They have received good reviews here and on most of the other audio sites. http://www.fritzspeakers.com |
I was kinda expecting this reaction, so I’ve narrowed my question strictly to the technical domain. But since you’ve asked- then no, the final sound is what matters, and the speakers I’m looking for are to be well auditioned before buying. However, the potential of a speaker with a 50$ tweeter is far lower than a speaker with a 300$ tweeter (it isn’t the cost per se, it’s the component specs which are far better). There is simply way more that can be extracted from it. That’s why I prefer to start there. Any speaker (or any other device) is made of design + components. Both of them must be good. No design, good as it may be, can substitute high-quality components. So, I prefer to try those with the best components in my price range as a rule of thumb. If their design sucks (it happens)- It’ll be heard and I’ll move on to the next one. |
Welcome to the forum
roylindenfeld. At that price point I'd recommend a pair of Golden Ear Triton One. |