Speaker shootout update; aggressive treble eliminating some (fairly?)

Trying to help and chatting with Hilde45, here is what I’ve gathered since his speaker demo startup. May help for anyone assisting to analyze the gaps and opportunities. Hopefully these notes (or assumptions) might save some time for those chiming in late not reading prior posts on the gear, updates - fwiw.

Some fairly well knowns:
+warmish well known QS tube preamp, recently new, but burned in.
+warmish well known QS mono block tube amps, recently new
+warmish matched Brent Jesse vintage 1960s input/driver tubes
+neutral to warmish well known interconnect cables, med quality OFC
+neutral to warmish well known speaker cables, med quality OFC
+neutral to warmish well known MHDT Orchid tube DAC, neutral GE5670 Triple Mica (t/b replaced)

Some variables, and uncertainties:
-AC Power, non dedicated power circuit used, check as tbd.
-Room, very low ceilings, no room treatments yet, hard walls/floors
-Speakers with bright "ish" midrange and tweeters don’t gel well
-Speakers over 90db sensitivity are more in question so far...
-8ohm vs. 4ohm speakers may be a better match for the tube amps
-up to ~150-200hrs on preamp, amps, tubes, caps, in total, so far [est.]
-most demo speakers excluding Fritz demos are relatively new
-tube in DAC, pending replacement with warmer Telsa 6CC42 soon

If you believe some or all of these notes and assumptions listed here, what comes to mind to you first, ..1,2,3? :)

With ceilings that low, you are getting massive reflections. I would be very aggressive in knocking that effect down. Go with tweeters that have very little vertical dispersion (RAAL or AMT) and put 3 inches of rockwool overhead and in front of the speaker location. You might want to get some little mirrors and a laser pointer to figure out the angles to make sure you’re not sitting right in the worst spot.

As far as speaker suggestions... try looking at Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 line. RAAL tweeters and ruler flat response curve.

Thanks for the summary, decooney.
Ceiling has a thick blanket across entire area of reflection points, same with front wall. No side wall reflecting problems. Floor is carpeted, by the way. To quote my OP, “No terrible reflection points; room not overly live or dampened.”

I feel your pain because many of my customers complain about the same thing. My experience is that many speakers are deliberately designed for an immediate positive Hi-Fi response in order to make sales. This starts a vicious sequence of changing electronics, cables, room placement, power line conditioners, and other expensive band-aids when a look at these speaker’s measurements would reveal the tweeter is playing louder than the rest of the drivers. What was charming is now an aggravation. I noticed your list does not include Vandersteen which you should audition as they are always very musically engaging and transparent.

Best, JohnnyR

If you can't do a lot of room treatments like most of us you might consider something like a minidsp and use some room correction software. It can help for less money than room treatments depending on the model. With that low a ceiling it might be your best investment.  Then again Those Salks with a nice flat FR might be the ticket or try Revel speakers. 

6.5 ft ceiling!?!
If your info is correct, that ceiling needs major acoustic treatment.

Agreed with furiouslyadrift about the raal tweeters. I have the ascend acoustic sierra towers with raal and they have very narrow vertical dispersion. Great clarity at ear level in your sitting sweet spot, but more subdued when standing up. 

I’m puzzled as to why you have not tried or auditioned wharfedales. It seems you are fixated on aggressive treble. Why try and fix something when you can just select a speaker with a non aggressive treble. Wharfedales are known for their smooth and somewhat warmer tweeter. I would recommend you audition the lintons or the Dentons.. there are also the 4.2's as well as older stock towers such as the diamond 240's if that's your thing. I have never had an issue with aggressive anything with a wharfedale. 

High end is pretty directional, and bright tweeters are usually beaming straight from tweeter to ear, so room mitigation is limited.

From experience, when a company features a special tweeter, there seems to be a tendency to showcase it a little too much, which I've heard on several berrylium offerings.

Re: Celestion vintage. Never owned but remember the Ditton 66 as a wonderful sound.

With the monitors try putting them on low stands given the low ceiling, maybe with slight tilt back.

Also play with toe-in. Brightness can be tamed often by not having direct tweet exposure to ears. Also often helps with soundstage and imaging.

The Fritz will be hard to beat if you can get them set up optimally. I’d stop and work on that first if it were me.

@furiouslyadrift34
Agree that ceilings likely a problem. Since I have been trying tweeters that have very little vertical dispersion (AMT) I'm now aiming to deal with what's overhead and in front. I've done the mirrors and laser pointer thing. Thanks for your reply. Very interested in Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 line, but worry a tower is too much, regardless of tweeter type.

@audioconnection Thanks. Vandys are on my list. Just hard to get an audition. Same with many other speakers people mention.
@ djones51 I'd consider a minidsp but am hoping to keep things simple. Still, good to have a backup plan. Thanks.

@ baylinor Just measured it. 6.5 ft. Old bungalow basement. Not sure a tower can work, even with RAAL tweeters.

@audioguy85 I've not tried or auditioned wharfedales because of local availability. I'm not "fixated" on aggressive treble. I am learning. My process has been to try speakers which have a number of qualities I am looking for and one of those is detail. Reviews of what I have tried have said good things about their treble. I'm discovering that my situation possesses some factors which are making them aggressive. That said, I'm open to Wharfedales and appreciate your suggestion.

@electroslacker
I'll be curious if the specific type of beryllium tweeter in these speakers is implemented in a way that makes them bright. I've learned that certain judgments about the material of a tweeter can not tell the whole story; not only are there different ways of using beryllium, there are different ways of designing a beryllium (or any other kind) of tweeter.

@mapman
I've played with toe-in. I'll try lower stands for the monitors if they're bright. Right now, the brightness is a problem with towers. I've played a lot with the Fritz, but will again. If your suggestions can change them toward more detail in that upper end, that would be optimal, but I've had them in virtually every position, so…

Hilde45,
A quick and dirty test to do and report back. Sounds really stupid and crude, no cost, but it works as another method for process of elimination and targeting some things with a particular speaker to get some ideas. Quick to try.

1. Put grilles on speakers if speakers came with them and note any change - at all? Did any etch, glare, or other disappear at all - report back.

Remove grilles - if they were on...now for the crude part :)

2. Cover the tweeter with one layer of thin paper towel, stick on lightly with a small piece of painters blue tape, and report back. Any etch or glare disappear?

3. Next cover the midrange with thin layer of paper towel, barely tape on with painters tape, be sure to not double-up on it, report back.

4. Do 2,3 together, both tweet and mid, report back. Does it become fuller and more musical with 2,3 together?

Just a simple test to get ideas with an overly bright tweeter/mid layout before trying any mods internally, or padding down either. I agree with prior assessments of exaggerated tweets/mids on some speakers, and the room can make it better or worse.

You can add/remove the pt back and forth as you are sitting there listening. Extrapolate from here,

Oh, note this and for AMTs, here is what Legacy does - trim buttons +/- 2db look here, old method from early days of AMTs because rooms and gear varies greatly.  
link: https://legacyaudio.com/images/made/images/uploads/products/Fronts-Mains/new_binding_posts_434_609.j...

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Trying not to overemphasize burn in (I read your article); just trying to do some burn in and put it out of my mind.

sorry, but I disagree here in burn in.  I have burned in so many different cables, capacitors, power cords, equipment, speakers.  They all require burn in.  Some more than others.  I know that tweeters could have a slight bright edge when they are new and will smooth out after a burn in process.  I have had some connectors and cables that sound absolutely nasty in the middle of the burn in process, but you need to be patient and wait.  Sometimes my equipment is absolutely unlistenable in certain points of burn-in and I just have to stop and wait another few days.

Stop complaining and get yourself speakers that are custom tuned to your ears. 

Regarding more detail on the upper end, have you ever had that with your setup in the past? What was that setup if so? Not familiar with your amplification but perhaps something could be done there? If you like tubes, take a look at the Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL gear. It seems to excel in that area with it’s low output impedance which helps reduce distortion. Would love to hear that with the Fritz.

Maybe the monitors on lower stands will help.

https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/the-technology

Funny thing about burn in .Is it your speakers need time to break in or you mind needs time to get used to the sound you are hearing ? Breaking in shoes.sometimes they feel just right ,other times there tight .Does the leather stretch or does your feet get use to the pain.

So then we should buy used speakers because there always broken in or is it because  they just suck.

Funny thing about burn in .Is it your speakers need time to break in or you mind needs time to get used to the sound you are hearing ? 

Both can easily come into play.  It usually takes some time to be sure about things. 

You would be very dissatisfied if you settled for the Focal 936 or the Martin Logan Motion 60's.  You will get ear fatigue from the Martin Logan's.  

I ended up buying a pair of Paradigm Prestige 85F towers and adding a pair of REL S3 SHO subwoofers.  They sound so much better than the Focal's and the Martin Logan's.  For $6,000 the SALK Song3 Encore's are much better.

@decooney Thanks. I will try those things. Interesting AMT history.
@auxinput I'm not qualified to partake of a burn in debate. I decided to get 100 hours on the speakers right away and they're now up to 200. Rather than wonder about it, I just did it.
@kenjit Do you know what the word "complaining" means? (Rhetorical question.)
@mapman This is really the first hifi rig (beyond mid-fi) I've put together and only in this room. LTA sounds interesting but I think I'm sticking with the amps and tubes I just bought. The speaker is the variable at this point. Trying the stands idea if necessary.
@limomangus I was using the shoe analogy recently for this topic with a friend. I no longer try to talk myself into shoes that aren't quite fitting in the store. I never wind up wearing them.

@auxinput

sorry, but I disagree here in burn in. I have burned in so many different cables, capacitors, power cords, equipment, speakers. They all require burn in. Some more than others. I know that tweeters could have a slight bright edge when they are new and will smooth out after a burn in process. I have had some connectors and cables that sound absolutely nasty in the middle of the burn in process, but you need to be patient and wait. Sometimes my equipment is absolutely unlistenable in certain points of burn-in and I just have to stop and wait another few days.

+1
I’ve found about 50% of the people don’t believe it and don’t want to, or simply cannot hear a difference in their particular system and choice of source components and speakers in particular. And those with extra amounts of $ and impatience dump the gear prematurely. One can pick up some decent 2nd or even 3rd hand deals this way with components barely used a few months or less. A typical replayed pattern with Pass Lab amps, people panic’ing after spending big $. I have a new phrase for that "be a 2nd owner of a 90 day old Pass Labs amp, save time and money, haha!"

Literally drove myself close to crazy again burning in some of the upper end SG Mundorf EVO caps (3rd set of amps) and brand new AP Crystal Solo OCC cables lately, thought I/we would never get there along with a few buddies doing the same in parallel. As a baseline check we’d swap back to former cables periodically to stop second guessing, then comparing back to other used sets of the same model. OCC copper is a rollercoaster too. Some days exactly as you described it, had to step away for a few days. Spot on.

Patience can pay off in some cases with some gear known to have long burn-in cycles to finally settle in. :)

+2 on the burn in process. Whereever it’s possible, I always opt for burn-in offered by cable manufacturers. I don’t normally sit down for any critical listening before 200hours burn-in mark.

My rig is wired with Audio Envy’s OCC copper loom and I couldn’t be any happier. They ended my quest for best possible cables for my system.

Besides one of Fritz's models, look at the Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grand.  It's a magical speaker that produces no treble-itis.  In your sized room it should be plenty.

Maybe others here have knowledge of the amp that might help to clarify what can be expected.

In general it’s worthwhile to pay attention to impedance matching amp, pre-amp and speakers. Distortion results otherwise which can produce the symptoms observed. It’s generally more of an issue when higher impedance tube gear is involved.

Personally I would go no further until I confirmed all my components were well matched to each other in regards to impedance. Could be a wild goose chase with speakers otherwise.

Also what is a “tube R2R DAC”? Also what is a “QS tube”? What amp and dac specifically? That will help to assess. Thanks

Of course with tube gear, it also helps to test tubes to know the condition. NOS tubes sound like a good thing to many but they are still old and may not be a good place to start.

My concern Here is the focus on the speakers Unless it is safe to assume first that all is well upstream.


MIT terminator ICs are good for taming brightness but may just be a bandage and not address the root problem. I find DNM Reson ICs to be very coherent and easy on the ears. Those are my personal preference.

@mapman 
QS = Quicksilver. For both preamp and amp. They're matched perfectly.
“tube R2R DAC” = MHDT Orchid DAC with tube.
NOS tubes purchased from Brent Jessee and carefully tested.
I think it's safe to say that upstream is ok.

@hilde45   I have been living with a metal dome tweeter for too many years. That, along with a 5' mid-range and the overall "presence and brightness" is just unbearable with music that isn't extremely well recorded & produced.  Well done records sound quite good.  But, anything less in quality is rather harsh.  So, I made the decision to change.  I have lived with Dynaudio speakers in the past and have auditioned their newer models.  I now have on order the new Dynaudio Contour 60i (the i is the improved, next generation of the Contour 60 that was released in 2016).  Dynaudio silk soft dome tweeter is marvelous.  So is the soft dome tweeters produced by Scanspeak.  Any speaker you get with either of those tweeters should be very pleasing to your needs and tastes.  Just my opinion, of course.   By the way, the Evoke series uses a different model tweeter than the Esotar 2i in the Contour series.  It does utilize similar design technology of the Esotar 2i but is not the top-end technology from Dynaudio.  If you want the best from Dynaudio you may want to consider a model from the Contour series as they all utilize the Esotar 2i tweeter.  The Contour 20 is around your budget and the Contour 30 is above your budget, but would be very well worth the added investment.  And the build quality is superb and the finish quality is stunning.
Best to you.  Be healthy.

OP, I was thinking about a 6.5" lid. In the seated position. 
Your ears in a normal chair, are pretty close to the ceiling.

That's a BIG problem. I would try a low rider chair, just to see
if that would tame a lot of the HF, issues your speaking of.

I would also pitch the top of the speakers. forward, 5-15 degrees.

Eric, said in the first post (and I agree,100%) room treatment of a particular, and really peculiar, type is needed. You have a very different room, for sure.

You say your pretty new to the HiFi world, understand like most, I had to learn 40 years ago, too. TREAT the area your in FIRST, as much as you can, then place as best you can.  

Your speakers, or your ears can't be that close to a border... HEAVY (right) over your head defusion, or you'll boil your ears. Stay away from clad wire. Silver over copper, can be REAL bright, with ANY hard dome.. Pure copper, pure silver... Just not as bright.. Soft domes are not as bright, GOOD planars are not bright. 

There are a lot of ways to tame "Bright", normally it's not the speaker as much as the, room, weird cables, and roll a signal valve or two.
I know my valve units VERY well.. Pretty easy to adjust, "Bright" in or out of my units..

Regards

@mammothguy Thanks for the report about the Dyns. I've seen the Confidence series used (about 1/2 price at The Music Room) and I think they had the Contour series recently. Possibly of interest. I'm really starting to realize that I've just got too much energy, overall, in the room. Bookshelves or at least smaller towers are probably the way to go.

@oldhvymec
Great suggestions; thanks for a helpful post. I'm going to swap my seats out today and try your suggestions. Will avoid those wires, too, and the experiment with soft domes will continue, soon.

But if you're right about seating position, and if I do more work on the area acoustics, I may be able to get the detail I'm looking for from a well implemented non-soft dome tweeter, like the Be tweeter or perhaps an AMT. I'll have a nice trio of options to compare soon -- Fritz soft-dome bookshelves, Salk Be dome bookshelves, Dynaudio soft dome towers (shorter than ML or Focals).

HILDE45 try two nimbus clouds above the speakers on the ceiling one above each speaker

You will need your speakers custom tuned to your ears. When you buy a pair of shoes you buy the size that fits your feet. Its the same with speakers if you want perfect sound you will need them to be tuned by hand. 

Hi HLD,

I have the Fritz Rev Carbon 7 mk II, I also have had the Fritz Carbon 7, Fritz Rev 5, and the first Fritz Carrera. None of these speakers are bright and all of them have something very unique about their sound. The Fritz Carrera Be May be something you want to take a look at. It has even more detail then Carbon 7 mk II (but is less bright) better sound stage depth and extension, and has a midrange that is lush, magical, and rich. It also can be driven by a few watts... Fritz even demoed it with a Tube Headphone amp at one the shows. 
Under $4000 your not gonna find a speaker you like more if you have and eversion to bright treble. The Dynaudio that you are going to try will be probably have less magic in the midrange but you will like the mechanical nature of its control and prat. Be forewarned though as they require amplification that cost a lot more ( the Fritz speaker responds well to pretty much any amp). If you are entertaining the thought of the special 40 you may be disappointed in its midrange as they really skimped on the crossover. 

@audioconnection

I feel your pain because many of my customers complain about the same thing....

Hi John,

ProAcs like tube amps, noting you also sell ProAc too, and Quicksilver amps. Perhaps something like a Proac D20 type smallish 2-way 8ohm floorstanders, w/soft dome. Perhaps another match with Hilde45’s QS Mono 60 KT88 amps, what say you - your thoughts?

Hi @ditusa — I have that right now. (At least an absorbent blanket.)
@djverne Thanks for the suggestion. I think my Quicksilver Monos will have the juice needed for the 88 db Dyns, but we'll see. No cost experiment.

Some 244 or 242 panels above your speakers will help a little bit.  
Your issue is that you are sensitive to overly bright speakers.  If you go dyns, try to get something with the esotar tweeter, not the esotec.  I’m not sure that you have enough power to make the dyns sing though.

The Carbon 7’s you’ve been listening to have a nice Scan Speak air circ soft dome tweeter.  It will probably be on par with just about any other soft domes out there.

The BE tweeter is going to offer up lots more detail without being harsh or overly bright.  I’m very similar in that I can not stand hard domes but at the same time I love Beryllium.

I would even go so far as to say that if you do end up not liking the salks, which I highly doubt, the Fritz Carrera BE’s may be your ticket.  They will play very nicely with your tubes and they have an awesome, natural organic sound with great air and detail up top.

Something to take into consideration, and something that others here are more knowledgeable about than I, when an impedance curve drops dowm from 8 ohms to 4 ohms, if your amp doesn’t double down in power (100 watts at 8 ohms, 200 watts at 4 ohms), it will make the speaker sound bright.

Honestly, the Fritz Carreras are probably the best speakers for your tastes.  If you aren’t smitten with the Salks, have Fritz send you a pair of Carreras.

Lastly, you really should strap on some headphones and google frequency sweeps.  Check your hearing to see whats going on.  Doing that was a real eye, er, ear opener for me.  The sweep should stay the same volume and centered throughout the range.  For me, I have hearing loss in my right ear through a certain range but I am also highly sensitive to 2khz, 6khz and 10khz with no hearing above 15khz.

I remember when we first started talking months ago that I had recommended that you check out Monitor Audio Golds with the ribbon tweeters.  I think that might be something else you look at.  They are very detailed while being laid back as well.  They are beautiful and built extremely well too.  Theres some gold gx 200’s in parker for sale on C-list.  Maybe you can arrange an audition.

I really think though that they soft domes aren’t going to get you the detail that you are after.  You will need to go Beryllium, amt, ribbon or planar.  The nice thing about ribbon and planar is that the limited vertical dispersion will actually be beneficial for you with your lower ceilings.  

@b_limo 
It's not at all clear that I'm sensitive to overly-bright speakers.
For one, if they're "overly bright" then *anyone* would be sensitive. So, it's not uniquely me. (And others hearing these in my room have also flinched at how bright they were.)
Second, the room has 6.5 foot ceilings. As many have deduced, this indicates that it may not be that the speakers are overly bright. It's the room is causing the issue.
All that said, a soft-dome may be the right thing for anyone who had my room.
Doing some hearing tests would be good. It very well could be me, but doing it outside of the strange acoustics of my room would help.

You wrote:

I really think though that they soft domes aren’t going to get you the detail that you are after. You will need to go Beryllium, amt, ribbon or planar. The nice thing about ribbon and planar is that the limited vertical dispersion will actually be beneficial for you with your lower ceilings.

My suspicion is really that *any* tower is probably overloading the room. I bet I could get any speaker and as long as it's right sized (and I'm sitting at the proper, lower, height) it could work.

In other words, I've put too large speakers, too high up in a room with low ceilings. I've created an acoustic challenge that makes it seem to be about the material the tweeter are made of — but that is just a small part of the equation. That is what a bunch of the really smart comments on this thread add up to, as I synthesize them.

HILDE45 the blanket will not work one cloud above each speaker thats why jbl makes some monitor that can be put on there side look at the jbl lsr-32or 6332 jbl 4412 takes the tweeter a way from the ceiling they can be put h or v 

@ditusa I'll try to parse what you're saying about why a blanket won't work. Not quite sure what you're saying.

Being sensitive to bright speakers isn’t a bad thing.  Many people like bright speakers because at first, and for shorter listening sessions they have more sizzle.  I think many manufacturers voice their speakers this way because in a short listening session at a brick and morter store, when a/b’ing them they’ll win out.

its like looking at tv’s.  If one has really vivid colors you may like it as opposed to another that is a bit duller but that vividness / brightness wears thin after an hour or so.

Speakers that are darker sounding or more laid back have a more lasting quality in my opinion.  Speakers that don’t grab your attention are usually the ones that you can listen to for hours and the good ones will lure you in.

I also think that it costs a lot of money / research to produce a speaker that is laid back but that still offers detail, thats why many manufacturers just crank up the highs and lows in order to sell speakers in b&m stores where quick a/b comparisons will be made.

I agree, and stated twice now, that 2 244 or 242 panels above your speakers will help but the speakers are the main culprit.  The rest of your system is either neutral or warm, as stated by another member earlier. 
This may all be solved once you get your Salks.  They should be the ticket!

In other words, I've put too large speakers, too high up in a room with low ceilings. I've created an acoustic challenge that makes it seem to be about the material the tweeter are made of — but that is just a small part of the equation. That is what a bunch of the really smart comments on this thread add up to, as I synthesize them.

Stick with it OP.. LOL you move that tweeter away from boundries it will work a lot better, You see ditusa post lay the JBLs on there side. Same kind of deal.

You're much better off getting to know your room, and going from there.

I know the perfect speaker for that room. The problem is finding them.
VMPS, 626R, with 40oz 6.5 wcf.  A few were made, people don't hardly sell them..

So I'm perfectly clear, I haven't heard ONE of the speakers your talking about.. But I do know what will work in that room... and BIG ain't it...
Being able to clock the tweeter, from horizontal to vertical, is an option you might want to look at too. You could tape the top half off for a test. Like a ribbon/planar with wave guides. Again a "TIP" forward, lower the speaker stand, lower your seated position, clocking the tweeter.  Don't cost much...

Regards

@kenjit , do you get your shoes custom fitted to your feet?  How about your pants?  Shirt?  

@oldhyvymec. Tried your suggestion by bringing in a different listening chair which lowered my ears. It helped but speakers still too big, bright. Heading in a a different direction, now...learning my room plus eliminating problematic speakers as schematized here. 

@b_limo

..The rest of your system is either neutral or warm, as stated by another member earlier. This may all be solved once you get your Salks. They should be the ticket!

Kinda what I was thinking now too, particularly after recapping what’s been too much or not enough with all prior speakers. Next, the smaller 2-way Salk monitor with fewer drivers, "Be" neutral transparency, maybe less forward with slightly less efficiency at 87db sensitivity, in a meaty slot ported cabinet, and 8ohms will compliment the QS amps well. Hopefully hitting closer to happy middle ground for you Hilde45!

Appreciate all the posts. Audio is such a tricky subject on which to compare notes. It's common wisdom to try things out in one's own home, yet every room is different. And the associated gear is different. So, when I utter a simple claim like "speaker A is bright" any number of factors *besides the speaker* can cause people to agree or disagree. Typically, it's more fun to throw out names of brands and models to solve the problem, but what turns out to be most helpful have been "rules of thumb" or basic questions which highlight the factor I might be missing — "How high is your ceiling?" or "How far apart are the speakers?" or "What kind of music are you listening to?"

For me, audio research has been most confusing when I've mistakenly assumed that technical details about gear design is the key to getting oriented. E.g., I've found myself researching "warm solid state" or "beryllium tweeters" or "front ported speakers" before appreciating that none of those things were relevant, yet. To assemble a system I've made a lot of leaps in the dark — toward my amplifiers, my DAC, my cables, etc. Once I was down to speakers, I figured it would be a simple matter of trying a few and choosing. But the room! The room. The damn room.

Hilde45 -

Don’t get too discouraged. So okay if your room is not perfect, you should still be able to find a speaker that works for you. In the meantime have fun trying out all the different options, that is usually the fun part.

if your ceiling height is the main issue, I would keep trying mini-monitors as apposed to tower speakers, assuming that you have decent stands to put them on during the testing phase. People seem to rave about the smaller Wharfedale speakers being musical yet relaxed in their presentation. Music Direct is a Wharfedale dealer that gives you 60 days to try things in home,

Remember speakers need to break in and don’t always sound good right out of the box.Doug

@hilde45  how about a $4k pair of German made speakers for $1500 and free shipping?  I bought a pair of open box and these are some great sounding speakers.
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cantventoref92dcblka/canton-vento-reference-9.2-dc-7-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-piano-black-pair/1.html

The easiest way to eliminate the room is headphones. If that's not a consideration then it's compromises. With a 6.5ft ceiling it will be a challenge. If you can you might try British speakers,  Harbeth or similar. Adjust height, listening distance, toe in, etc.. If the room isn't dedicated for music where you can cover the ceiling in egg crate,  diffusion panels,   absorption panels, bass traps, basically whatever you need wherever you need to place it,  the simplest way is with room correction like Dirac.

BIGKIDZ your right the speakers are reproducing what they are being feed reproducing that sound in a room reflecting off the floor first ceiling and walls now you hear the room treat the room so you can hear the speakers speakers are 50% of the sound in a room the room is 50% of the sound in a room no room treatment live with 50%of sound  no way out going to the moon is a great idea going with your car not a great idea its hope less

The Canton Vento Reference 9.2 DC are nice speakers with lots of bass for their size and are fairly neutral.  I have them in my bedroom system.  Having said that, you can get a lot more speaker for $4000.