Speaker Placement - When it's perfect!

@fourwnds  Nicely done.  It is amazing what a relatively minor adjustment to speaker placement can do to lock in the sound!

 it's taken me a long time and a lot of listening and trying different ideas. But tonight I got a little closer, I used a tape measure. I realized I was 3/8 off on the toe in and I moved a bookcase back so as to adjust the angle of an absorption panel measured from the wall that extended it out an inch Furthur than the side that had better bloom.  Center image had been listing left lately. I guess I screwed it up when I tilted speakers back awhile ago. So much better. Lyrics are a lot easier to pick out and of course soundstage is equal. I had right side with nice bloom but vocals favoring left. Dual volume controls kept me  from getting on it, ie laziness. Sometimes you just want to listen to music but shite that wasn't hard at all in practical terms. 5 minutes. 

@wester17   Great job doing the work needed to find that ideal speaker location!  I kept measurements on notecards, you marked the physical location with tape.  Same idea, different implementation.

IMHO that is the key.  In whatever way appeals to you, keep track of where the speakers have been in your quest for the best.  It keeps you from trying failed locations tried in the search and hone in on that ideal spot.  For me the final trick was toe-in.  No kidding... I was adjusting it at 4mm. at a time until instruments locked into their positions within the soundspace with a smoothness of timbre and natural dynamics as heard at the listening seat.

The destination is worth the trip.

I spent months trying to find the sweet spot for placement of my speakers. During that time, the floor was covered with numbered pieces of masking tape. What a sight! Not exactly what my wife had in mind for her décor. In the end, it was an effort well rewarded. The masking tape is now gone, and I’m enjoying audiophonic and marital bliss!

@soma70 That’s a great idea! I use an SACD of Clark Terry’s "Portraits" album. The trumpet images outside the right speaker with good setup and the piano images outside the left speaker. If I’m not hearing that I know I’m not there yet.

My system really only came together after I had dealt with first and second reflection points  and then positioned the speakers straight ahead with no toe in.
A nice way to test speaker placement is to use Roger Waters album Amused to Death and the track Too Much Rope. Its recorded in QSound so that some of the voices and sound effects can come from far left and right through a full 180 degrees. Spooky!  Also Vogue by Madonna has the same QSound effects but you might need a few beers for that one first! 

If you have completed the journey to perfection in a year you have certainly done so much faster that I was able to so do. I complete that same journey two +/- time a year until I play a recording or two that sound terrible and I then renew my interest in improving. For me at least this has been a hobby that continually inspires me to try something new for a greater return. I think half of the fun of this or any other hobby is continuing to try to improve what we have. I shudder when I think about how much money I have spent seeking perfection and the best I have done is I may have gotten a little closer to perfection. The manufacturers also try and in some cases do convince us that the finish line has again been moved.

Over the years, I've found that the Odd Dimensions rule (1/3, 1/5, etc.) for speaker placement seems to work well in most situations. For my listening room, the speakers were placed 1/3 of the room width from the side walls.  The front of the speakers were then placed 1/5 of the room length away from the front wall as a starting point. After a few listening sessions, moved the speakers a few inches closer to the front wall for some added bass reinforcement.    

Dialing everything in right is time-consuming but worth the effort.  Worked the better part of one year with speaker placement and room treatment.  The final phase was fine-tuning with speaker cable and interconnect combos.  When I started listening to the music instead of the equipment I knew that I was done.  

Wow. The Spica Angelus. Haven’t thought about that speaker for a long time. That was, to me, one of the most unique looking speakers in its time. I never had the pleasure of hearing music through them.

Agree with you about the differing demands of various speaker designs/sizes. It is a long way from the Angelus to the Maxx 2!

The classic Spicas were the TC50s which had superb imaging. The Angelus added some bass extension but retained the excellent imaging, while looking like a pair of nuns staring at you. A shame John Bau stopped designing speakers!

The Wilsons also have very good imaging along with a bass down to 20 Hz and the sensitivity to operate well with lower powered amps - I change out and use a CJ Premier 11a for music and a Roland 5 for video. I’ve heard the Maxx 3 and they are indeed an improvement but the 2s are something one can be happy with indefinitely unless one suffers from audiophilia nervosa.

Any hifi addict should take the trouble to hear some speakers at least once - original Quads, Spica TC50, Apogee (preferably Scintillas), Magnepan Tympani, I’m sure many here can add their candidates for ’special’ speakers.

I've been aware of it for years, and on page one it's already mentioned-the Cardas setup

http://www.cardas.com/speaker_placement.php

For my situation, it was the answer for wasted time fussing. Like everything, this too is a YMMV thing. Bass traps and first reflection control,make my non listening room sound like a hack audio geek system.The drawback is your speakers are way into the room-5.5' and 3.5' from the sides, in my setup.

Instant speaker upgrade, without the obsessive tinkering. If I had $10K+boxes,
that would probably be an excuse fo endless tweaking with measurment tools, pro consultation and such.

@wspohn  Wow.  The Spica Angelus.  Haven't thought about that speaker for a long time.  That was, to me, one of the most unique looking speakers in its time.  I never had the pleasure of hearing music through them.

Agree with you about the differing demands of various speaker designs/sizes.  It is a long way from the Angelus to the Maxx 2!

Some speakers are more demanding than others.

I recall setting up some Spica Angelus - they were capable of pin point localization but needed to be positioned exactly right to get that.  Helps to have someone to help you - if you can just sit there while the helper moves the speakers closer or further apart, or toes them a bit, it is easier to compare the sound in your own mind.

My current main speakers (Wilson Maxx 2) have advantages and disadvantages. Each one weighs over 400 lbs so you have them on casters to even be able to move them. We used a laser range finder to be sure of distances to listener and moved them back and forth to zero them in. They have the advantage of having the mid and treble drivers in a movable module that you can precisely angle according to head height and distance from speaker.  Still, it takes awhile to set them up.

Right now I am doing battle with a pair of original Martin Logan CLS - slight changes in distance apart and toe can make or collapse the soundstage, plus there is the variable of amount of tilt, and height off the floor (customs stands are either unsightly or impossible to find).

It is worth all the trouble once you get the zeroed in, though.

I know this thought is not unique to me as many A'Goners have mentioned this on other threads.  I've been in this listening room for 25+ years.  Regardless of all the locations I try for my speakers, they end up in pretty much the same spot.  That may, in part, be because I have only had Vandersteen's in that room.  In any event, where the Treo CT's are now seems to be the place I always end up regardless of speaker model.🤔

Every room is different with different challenges to overcome acoustically.

 I finally had to have Jim Smith come out and voice my room.  Move a lot around, took 7 hours but the difference was beyond words.  
Very emotional experience listening in that room today...

I think it's funny you keep stalking me. 

It took about 13 months for my main system. I went through the gear merri-go-round for almost a year. My speakers have always been dialed in rather quickly thanks to a little math, manufacturer practices, and not so common sense.

Based on the pics I encounter of most set-ups, it seems the majority of audiophiles have their speakers in highly compromised positions, or in completely too large or too small a room. They’ll have >$5k speakers placed something like 12’ apart, only a foot from the walls, with a 60" TV flush between them.

What I have in mind for my next CES is making an unexpected entrance just as a demo of my new fabulous and preposterous device is about to begin. I am wearing a suit of multicolored strobe LED light bulbs. At that moment I give the direction to douse the lights and I turn on the multicolored strobes, set to pulse at the Schumann frequency in a sequence of azure, cyan and violet. As the room erupts in color the sudden and instantaneous improvement to the sound produces gasps and general uproar and even shock in the audience. The incredible lift in sound quality is instantly verified by the many nodding heads and smiles of inward satisfaction and, frankly, bliss.

while we are at it..
why not have a wearable helmholtz suit...thinking tge big suit from talking heads with 40 or fifty water bottles attached...
i prefer Woodford over water but we can take that up with
God

god, dog, particle, field, gravity well, all create a positive, neutral or negative expectation bias...

unless we pay the spouse to introduce unknown change....

god, dog, particle, field, gravity well, all create a positive, neutral or negative expectation bias...

unless we pay the spouse to introduce unknown change....

Having built more Helmholtz resonators than the average bear 🐻 I think I can say they can be made to be relatively broadband. Otherwise they wouldn’t do much, no? But the very low frequencies are a tough nut to crack 🐿. No doubt about it. If your system goes down to 20 Hz that would be one helluva system. Sounds like you’re a good candidate for the DIY Room Lenses. They are broadband resonators. I’m a fan of Tube Traps too. Various resonators are in my product line up, too. They are also broadband. That’s what they skeptics used to say about the tiny little bowl resonators -"They’re TOO SMALL to have any effect on bass frequencies!" 😄 Even crystals can affect low frequencies; it’s all energy and they’re not biased. Just to add: you really should map out your room in all three dimensions using a test tone or two and a SPL meter to get an idea of the acoustic anomalies you're actually facing.

Helmholtz resonators are too narrow in their frequency band. I need 20-200 Hz absorbed.

No worries about the God particles, I'm agnostic. They leave me alone

What I’m talking about is not a particle. It’s a field. I like to call it Lucifer’s field. Unlike magnetic or electric fields it does not (rpt not) attenuate over distance. Mess you up.

and all those God particles getting in the way.....

I once built a fifteen foot long Helmholtz resonator to take care of an obnoxious 70 Hz standing wave located along the rear wall. The Helmholtz resonator was a folded S shaped 8" white PVC pipe with elbows and straight sections and end caps and put together with PVC cement and the purple stuff. A brass nozzle of the appropriate dimensions was screwed into one of the end caps.

Interesting factoid: At the big shows there are often a lot of empty bottles, coke bottles, whatever, lying around. These innocuous looking bottle are powerful little Helmholtz resonators. Unfortunately for the sound, they’re the wrong size and in the wrong locations to do any good. They actually hurt the sound quite a bit. That's a shame!

@geoffkait you could hire yogis to do yoga asanas in the corner. We can measure the absorptive properties of each asana and then tailor them accordingly. A headstand over behind the speakers, a nice corpse pose in front of the speakers to absorb floor reflections.. 

@kalali - ha! Yeah, I'm aware and am researching bass traps at the moment. It's just that I recently bought a measurement mic, so I can finally see what frequencies I'm having booming bass problems with. And it's getting colder, so it was time to bring the orange tree in.. I just didn't think that the potted plant would almost cure my bass issues.

I'm thinking of building a slack membrane bass trap, as it seems I can make it reasonably small as long as I can find a very dense membrane. So, we'll see where this goes..

What I have in mind is a team of trained professionals hired out to act as bass traps by standing in corners during demonstrations at the big shows or even for individuals, on a case by case basis. Special dress requirements for the human Helmholtz resonators will be considered. 👙

There are less esthetically pleasing but more effective methods for managing the unwanted bass frequencies. How about planting a round corner bass trap in a pot? You never know,  you may have a taller bass trap if you give it enough Miracle Grow...😄

@stfoth   peace lilies are easy to care for.. they go limp when they need water, you water them, they perk back up. Not sure they’d be in a big enough pot to absorb much bass. I kinda lucked out with the orange tree.

@geoffkait I’m open to the possibility that the plant will affect sound in ways that aren’t instantly obvious, but right now I haven’t noticed a degradation in sound. In fact, the opposite. But that is definitely from the bass absorption

I understand that hibiscus has the best bass response.

Addendum,
Ooops I almost forgot. The tree in big pot may have helped the bass but it hurt the sound in other ways. Ways you did not detect because you weren't expecting it. Is that the opposite of expectation bias? You decide. 

+1 toddverrone. At least we know it's not the tree or the plant or the flower. 😄 That gives me an idea for a new tweak. 😬

Well, the plant may not be a good bass absorber, but the giant pot it's in, full of wet soil and placed in a corner is probably where I'm getting the bass absorption. Or super strong expectation bias. 😁

I have my measurements and they show a significant drop in bass decay time on a waterfall plot. And I have my ears.

twoleftears wrote,

"I don’t remember the name of the guy (German? Austrian?), but he has videos on youtube.

Basically, his method is this: hook up just one speaker, and position it exactly where you will be *sitting*, right in front of your chair or move the chair and position it exactly where your ears will be. Play some music with some good bass. Get down on your hands and knees, and crawl around the approximate area where you’re planning to situate one of the speakers. Perhaps do a grid search. Find the exact position where you can hear most bass. Mark. Repeat, crawling around the other speaker position. Set everything up and enjoy.

On the face of it, this sounds intuitively right. What do people think?

(And you get a little exercise!)"

>>>The XLO speaker placement track will give the best results. Better than that method. Better than any trial and error approach. Optimizing one parameter (bass) ignores the other parameters such as frequency response (smoothness), coherence, soundstage depth and dynamics. Thus, you wind up with good bass at the expense of everything else, no? The XLO Track insures ALL audio parameters are optimized simultaneously. AND it does so regardless of room dimensions, room acoustic devices or lack thereof, etc. That’s why I frequently say that trying to find the ideal - the very best - locations by ear is a fool’s errand 😜 as one can never be sure he's found the very best locations. Plus once you change something in the room the locations you found are no longer valid anyway. Trial and error methods are like trying to solve X simultaneous equations in X + n unknowns. 😝

@hifiman5 ,

That is almost always the case, but my room is irregular, with a large alcove on one wall, and large walk-in closets with bi-fold doors from corner-to-corner on the opposite wall. Hardwood floors with a rug covering most of the floor. Bass frequencies have lots of places to escape. After covering all first and second reflection points I was happy to find out I did not  need to treat the corners.

Tom

Most likely expectation bias. 😀 Besides, everybody knows plants don’t affect low frequencies. Can you think of a single scientific theory why they would? Maybe there were other people in the room when you were measuring, or something else affected the measurements. Temperature, pressure, the weather. Who knows? Human beings, you know, being mostly water DO affect lower frequencies. They are terrific Helmholtz resonators. So color me unconvinced. 🙄

@geoffkait it sounds great so far. Plants and I get along. 😉

Once I realized that speaker placement was perhaps the most easily and affordably addressed key to good sound, and started to get the hang of how to best tackle the issue, everything else became much easier and cheaper especially when I realized getting placement right is the key to making even less expensive speakers sound pretty good.

I run speakers concurrently in 6 rooms of my house currently (off two good quality source systems). Two pair could be had for <$100 used these days. The biggest/best list for $6500 these days. They are all only enjoyable and sound very good (within limitations of each). The big bad boys pretty much do it all.

@ejr1953   That's a big listening space!  I can relate to the one note bass problem as I had such a situation in our first house.  You went to much more heroic steps (10 bass traps) to get it under control.  I just looked at your system.  Great gear!  Adding the subwoofers really does change the way everything sounds.  It's not just about the deep bass they produce, it's about the sound of everything.  Glad to hear you had success in dialing everything in.

One question...How much of your system is running of the P10 regenerated power?

@tomcarr   Those of us with dedicated listening spaces have a distinct advantage over those who have to integrate their stereo gear into a family living space.  Great kudos to those dedicated 'philes who find that perfect spot with great positioning restrictions.

I would be willing to bet that you treated all of the corners of your listening room to keep sound from concentrating/distorting there.

I feel everyone's pain, been there, done that, have the t-shirt with speaker positioning.
In my case I struggled integrating a new pair of speakers into a 24 x 26' room with pretty awful acoustics.  I got the speakers sounding really "dialed in", then had to start all over, after adding a pair of sub woofers.
The room added a single bass tone (no matter what notes the bass players were playing) that was about as loud as the sub woofers.  As I got the bass under control, eventually placing 10 bass traps around the room (with the help of REW and a calibration mic), I had to re position the main speakers to once-again get that "performer in the room" sound stage.
I eventually "got it" and have left well alone since then.