Something For The Fuse Guys ...

Uh....... 😳

uberwaltz ...

Yesterday’s listening session turned out to be a marathon. Two fellow audiophiles came over with some fantastic records (LPs).

The prototype fuses continue breaking in. Things are still a little laid back, but with an overall improvement in inner-detail, sound staging and focus. Where the soundstage used to start at the plane of the speakers and go back to the back wall, it now starts behind the speakers and goes to the back wall. In other words, the presentation isn’t as upfront as it was prior to the prototype fuses being installed. I like the effect.

The fellow A’goner present for the session had just returned from the Rocky Mountain show. His comment was ... "with the exception of maybe two systems displayed at the show, nothing could touch what we're hearing here. And even they couldn’t do what this system is doing."

So, the general consensus is that the prototype fuses are a winner and an overall improvement over the previous fuses used in the system.

By the way, one of the beautiful recordings listened to yesterday was a 45 rpm reissue of a Nat King Cole LP brought to the session by the fellow A’goner. It was fantastic. The Audio-Technica OC-9 MK III is a very revealing and musical cartridge ... and a bargain to boot.

Frank

Frank, so what you are saying, if I am understanding correctly; you, as the listener, have moved back a few rows from the stage, and you are still hearing finer details in the musicianship......I would say that is pretty impressive. 

Except for the dates this could be last year's fuse thread.

mrdecibel ... 

• "Frank, so what you are saying, if I am understanding correctly; you, as the listener, have moved back a few rows from the stage, and you are still hearing finer details in the musicianship......I would say that is pretty impressive."

Exactly. But, it is more than just an increase in finer details. There's more of a tactile presence to the whole picture. I credit a whole bunch of "tweaks" applied over the past three years that allow for this kind of information to be passed through the system.

The prototype fuses have brought the realism of the event a little closer to the listener yet. That's saying a lot when one considers how good the SR Blue fuses are/were on their own. Impressive, indeed.

 
jaybe ...

^^^ Time marches on, my friend ... and so does progress. :-)

Frank

^^^ And then what happens? Anything different from when a stock fuse blows? 

uh...replacement cost maybe when a fuse does its real job and blows?

It's only money.   Who cares?

^^^ Maps ...

I certainly appreciate how concerned you are over how other people spend their money. I suspect that it is much appreciated by others posting on this site as well. 

In three-plus years of using after-market fuses, I’ve only had one fail. That’s not a bad record considering I’ve been through stock fuses, HiFi Tuning fuses, and the SR Reds, Blacks, Blues ... and now this no-name prototype fuse.

Not a bad record, wouldn’t you say ...??

Frank

Whoa! Wow! Hey, I didn’t realize madman was part of the brain police apparatus. Thanks for pointing that out. 

These forums are here to hopefully talk about things that matter.

It doesn’t matter how many anyone has seen fail or not. It can and does happen and that’s why the fuse is there is the first place.

If/when a fuse blows, the fuse must be replaced. End of story!  That matters.

No amount of fuse marketing will change that fact. If people are OK with it, then fancy fuse away.

Anyone truly looking out for the user rather than merely trying to sell expensive fuses will accept that fact not debate it.

Maps ...

Thanks again for your concerns. Much appreciated.

Other than you, who is debating whether fuses blow or not?

If a stock fuse blows, it will cost pennies. If an expensive fuse blows, it will cost ... well, it will be expensive. What's more expensive ... an expensive fuse blowing, or an expensive fuse NOT blowing and the surge taking out the entire circuit board?

Frank

Well OP you asked the question not me.   I see you get it now.

I had an SR fuse blow for no obvious reason other that it being seemingly rated improperly, that's happened to other SR fuse users (fusers?), and SR fuse promoters have recommended using higher rated fuses to avoid that...a real bad idea, but there ya go. 

Something interesting that I've noticed since installing the prototype fuses ... I have to turn the volume down quite a bit.

Of course that makes me really, really, really glad I don’t have to use fuses. There is never any end to it. Fuses are bad gnus. 🐂 🐂 🐂 Oh, I almost forgot to ask, are the prototype fuses directional?

Directional? I put them into four different components. I reversed the one in the line-stage ... and it sounded better. By "better," I mean more well focused. Same as all of the other aftermarket fuses. Placed the wrong way, the sound is slightly defused (no pun intended), like the system is out of phase. Placed in the proper direction, things just seem to snap into place. I know ... I know .. Impossible, right?

Frank

I have chosen not to participate in this thread because I've said all that I have to say on the subject in numerous fuse-related threads in the past.

However I just want to state a point of information: Posts that have been made by at least three different members appear to imply that the purpose of an AC mains fuse in a component is to provide protection against surges in the incoming AC. While it is possible that an AC mains fuse might do that under some circumstances, that is not its intended purpose. Its intended purpose is to blow if a fault within the component causes it to draw excessive AC current. Thereby preventing **additional** damage to the component that may otherwise occur, as well as preventing the possibility of the component overheating or even bursting into flames as a result of the excessive current being drawn.

Regards,
-- Al
 

Al, thanks for deciding not to participate in this thread. 😃

Glubson
Not around here.

So true. Learning disorder one assumes. 

Many thanks, Al, for your contribution to this thread. 

As you've stated (and if I properly understand), the purpose of the fuse is not so much as to protect from AC surges incoming and prior to the fuse, as some here have said. It's main purpose is to keep amp processes after the fuse from drawing too much current, making the fuse an integral part of the operation of the amp and therefore having more of a direct bearing on the sound, though it's exact reason as to why cannot be readily explained.

It just does.

All the best,
Nonoise

Even though what Al pointed out may be true, and probably is true, it actually has no real bearing on the case. You might as well say the sky is blue.

I could also point out that oregonpapa’s statement that all aftermarket fuses are directional is only a partial truth. Since all fuses -including stock off the shelf fuses - are directional. And all wire is directional - e.g., wire in all cables, interconnects, power cords, HDMI cables, Ethernet cables, transformers, capacitors, etc.

Cheers everybody!

I would like for one of our professional metallurgist members to chime in here and share with us any information they may have about the way metal is extruded during the manufacture of wire, and how that extrusion would affect the direction of molecules, and subsequently the directionality of said wire. 

Frank

Even though what Al pointed out may be true, and probably is true, it actually has no real bearing on the case. You might as well say the sky is blue

. 
If what was said is true, then it would have significant bearing on the case. Up until now, all naysayers have used the "it's only a sacrificial device" argument, which is not the case.

If I remember correctly, even @auxinput pointed out something similar which was quickly and conveniently glossed over in past threads.

All the best,
Nonoise

I have no idea what the “it’s only a sacrificial device” argument even means. The fuse obviously prevents high current from going any further, regardless of why the high current is there. It’s irrelevant to the fuse debate how the high current got there. There are really only a few bones of contention for fuses. Allow me to quickly summarize them.

Fuses do not all sound the same
Aftermarket fuses as a general rule sound better than stock fuses
There are easily identifiable physical and electrical reasons why some fuses are audibly superior to stock off-the-shelf fuses
All Fuses are directional in the sense they sound better in one direction than the other

In fact, it’s unnecessary to know why fuses are directional.  So the whole argument about molecules and atoms is actually irrelevant. We already know all wire is directional. And have known for 25 years. I use the word we editorially. 😬

Geoff, your troll skirt is showing. I enjoy your banter but when to proclaim ignorance on something that's been repeatedly debated and to say anyone said that you said it, when no one did, is just deflecting, using the good 'ol red herring approach.

And for your reasons as to why all fuses don't sound the same, I don't know of anyone who've actually heard them who would disagree. In fact, I've argued those points enough times to be weary of the subject.

All the best,
Nonoise

nonoise, What the heck are you going on about? Now that you mention it I don’t recall you ever making an argument one way or the other. Maybe you can refresh my memory and provide some arguments other than calling names. (I just hope Al doesn’t turn too fast or you might break your nose.)

Geoff, go back to any or all of the fuse threads that I participated in and it should easily jog your memory. And, do you really think I was name calling? Meh.

And your cheap shot with the comment on Al shows you to be having, what, a particularly bad day? That was low, even for you.

All the best,
Nonoise

Just as I thought. No arguments. No, I’m not going to go back and search through fuse threads. If you want to copy and paste your arguments go for it.

Again,......
meh

Just as I thought. Begone, troll! 

At 17,000+ posts, I don't think anything valuable would come from this member except excessive trolling and flaming.  Unfortunately, even the naysayers will flame this troll.

Gosh, did you think of that all by yourself, auxinput? That’s almost as clever as your moniker.

With these prototype fuses, I'm able to turn the volume knob down to a considerably lower setting and still get the same volume out of the system as before. Could some fuses be more efficient than others? Any science-minded folks want to chime in on that? 

And by the way, the system is sounding fantastic.

Frank

Yeah, it’s not obvious how much resistance a one-inch long wire could possibly have compared to all the wire in the power cord plus the internal wiring of the component. 😛 Recall the data sheets from HiFi Tuning showed definite differences among various fuses for measured resistance. And the data sheets showed reduction in resistance for the same fuse following cryogenic treatment. 🥶 All fuses, including bog standard commercial fuses showed improved resistance values after cryogenic treatment. AND all fuses showed differences in resistance according to direction in the circuit 🔛

Of course, the elephant in the room is how external forces like vibration and RF affect the signal through the fuse which is itself an electromagnetic wave.

- Your humble narrator and theoretical physicist

AhHa ... I thought so. Thank you, Mr. Humble, for that. 

So, there's the wire extrusion factor (which no one has commented on yet), and now we have cryogenic treatment.  How many more factors could affect the "sound" of different fuses? How about the use of different materials like graphene, beeswax ... etc? 

Frank

the humble... @geoffkait

😛 Recall the data sheets from HiFi Tuning showed definite differences among various fuses for measured resistance. And the data sheets showed reduction in resistance for the same fuse following cryogenic treatment. 🥶 All fuses, including bog standard commercial fuses showed improved resistance values after cryogenic treatment. AND all fuses showed differences in resistance according to direction in the circuit 🔛

All true however, in the interest of full disclosure, the magnitude of the total resistance is minuscule relative to the resistance of the associated wire in power cords, power supplies, etc. etc.....sort of like saying that adding a rounded grain of sand to the other sand below your beach blanket will noticeably improve your day at the beach. BTW, we are offering half-off pricing on rounded grains of sand this week, only $75.

The more important aspect of the very small differences in resistance is that the direction exhibiting the lower resistance is always (rpt always) the direction that sounds best. I would be the last person to claim that relatively large differences in sound exhibited by fuses are due entirely to the very small differences in resistance. In fact, this very point is stated in the HiFi Tuning data sheets. Hel-loo! To make matters even more irritating to the non-believers, as I’ve pointed on at least one occasion — the percentage of measured differences in resistance stated by HiFi Tuning are incorrect. As I recall 5% is the stated difference. In fact, percentages are much lower. Do the math. However the lower resistance is in the direction of best sound. 

Mitch
How much is shipping on 5 bags to Florida?

What is the purpose of all the sand? I’m assuming it’s for the refuseniks can pound sand?

@geoffkait

I would be the last person to claim that relatively large differences in sound exhibited by fuses are due entirely to the very small differences in resistance.

Geoff, you are learning...I am glad you agree that any differences in sound likely result from the improved contact achieved by removing the replacing the fuses, and not something silly like minuscule differences in directional resistance....🤔

@uberwaltz
We can offer further discounts on bags. Our rounded Lake Michigan sand grains are way more comfortable than laying on Florida coral and mollusk shell fragments. We offer free hand-delivery between December and March. ✈️

Mitch, you’re right, I am learning. Unlike the non-believers who, if I can be so bold, all seem to suffer the same learning disorder. If you’d been following the fuse saga closely you would have seen that resistance is not the root cause of directionality, it’s only a symptom. That’s the point HiFi Tuning was making. The root cause of directionality is something we haven’t figured out yet, even though I’ve offered a prize to anyone who can. So far, there is not much consensus on what the signal even is. That’s life in the fast lane.

oregonpapa OP
So, there’s the wire extrusion factor (which no one has commented on yet), and now we have cryogenic treatment. How many more factors could affect the "sound" of different fuses? How about the use of different materials like graphene, beeswax ... etc?

>>>>>Oh, geez, we’ve covered all that before. Hel-loo! Are you channeling Wolfman? 

mitch2
Geoff, you are learning...I am glad you agree that any differences in sound likely result from the improved contact achieved by removing the replacing the fuses, and not something silly like minuscule differences in directional resistance....🤔

>>>>>Geez, Louise! That makes absolutely no sense. No matter how many times you take the fuse out and reinsert it in the opposite direction the sound will always be better when the fuse is in the correct direction. It’s predictable and it’s repeatable and transferable. You’ve heard of the scientific method, right? The fuse holder has nothing to do with it. Hel-loo! It’s just another example of silly non-believers grasping at straws. No offense to you or my pal, Al. Hey, that Rhymes! 😬

GK repeat the same things a few hundred more times. Maybe people will learn.

While at it show your references that support all the conjecture and maybe they will also care.

It’s ironic that such a comment would come from someone who’s the poster boy for audiophiles stuck in the 80s. Some folks don’t learn no matter how many times I repeat it. A little bit of a re-tar-da-shun, I suspect. No biggie.

if you don’t learn from history you’re bound to make the same mistakes again. - Old audiophile axiom

Oregon...Can you give us a date when you think you can reveal this prototype fuse?

Indeed...WTF is this fuse...??

Fuse directionality is a myth...prove that to yourself by reversing the fuse in any component and note that the sound doesn't change one iota, regardless of the hyperbole and silly claims otherwise. Also it bears mentioning (again) that the little wires and circuit board traces aren't installed with any thought of their directionality, thus rendering the tiny fuse wire's directionality utterly irrelevant. One may ask, "why do so many claim unmistakable sonic attributes due to Special Fuses?" Because they can, and subjective opinion, expectation bias, or mythology based belief is by it's nature difficult to dislodge from the faithful, or anybody motivated by commercial incentive over objective logic.