Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews

Nah, it’s just sophistry being used to baffle. Look at all the angles and attempts deployed, the feints, the parries, the side steps. Getting kinda boring.

@kevn Thanks for the cleanup on aisle 7. Your vigilance is commendable and most appreciated.

All the best,
Nonoise

@audition__audio Well, we know that the experimenters were able to produce the test sounds and play them for subjects without difficulty using (likely) average quality audio reproduction equipment, so it's obvious that conventional reproduction systems are not masking the dynamics the subjects report, but I can change "edge" to "newly found" to remove any stigma the term invokes!

Yeah I was a bit taken by the "edge phenomenon" comment. That entire paragraph sets an interesting tone and sheds an interesting light on the "process". I am not on that page either. 

@kevn I’ll note also that I think you may be misinterpreting the Fourier uncertainty principle in this particular context as I and Amir have mentioned to @mahgister in several contexts. The authors are showing that if you used Fourier analysis as a model for human hearing there are limits to its applicability because there is likely nonlinear bucketing that allows for discrimination of time/frequency in excess of what a linear system is capable of.

That in no way impacts the FFT of an audio spectrum which is an accurate frequency domain representation of the sounds up to its intrinsic limits, it’s just a showing that there are likely nonlinear ways we sort out sounds. The speculation is that the fine acuity is derived from evolutionary pressures and the mechanics of it are due to the shape of the cochlea (as I repeatedly discussed previously).

So when we focus on the specific topic of sound reproduction, the sounds so reproduced contain as much information as always (and with greater fidelity the more accurate the information is). It arrives at our ears and then we exceed the FUP. It has little to do with equipment design or assessing reproduction fidelity.

Still, it is an interesting little edge phenomena!

Hundreds of thousands of words here yet not one opinion changed.

The very definition of "running in circles".

Is anyone having fun?

@kevn Well, fair enough, but you have not demonstrated that human hearing exceeds those measurements for music listening purposes! If we had just one great ABX test that showed me wrong, I would be thrilled because that would pave the way to something new. All those dynamics would dance again and the mad scientists who brought the systems to life would be celebrated for rightly finding a path towards a new audio Xanadu.

My focus on equipment design is a foil for, as the cognitive scientists say, requiring an "effective procedure." That is, if you can build it you demonstrate you understand it.

I'm certainly indoctrinated in the epistemic humility to be as careful as possible in assessing ideas, my own and those of others who hope but have not fully honed those hopes with the calm clarity of rationality.

Best to you, too!

@pynkfloydd - thanks for putting that little complaint into context ; )

@audition__audio - thanks! : )

@markwd

“Sure, we have this great hearing capability and some experimental results that suggest some curious little edge phenomena but we have no way of actually telling whether it is useful to us in the context of music reproduction and listening.”

• We are definitely not on the same page - first, hearing ability that outdoes measuring equipment is not a little ‘edge phenomena.’ It puts measurements in its rightful place, as a mere start. Second, we have been discussing the fact that human hearing exceeds your measurements, and that better listening skills can be developed to maximise this natural ability, not whether better measuring equipment can be invented. Third, being able to listen deeply into the music is the most useful skill to have, in order to be less reliant on measurements.

 

“Or, the other way to approach the problem is to figure out how to measure the ability down to the level of granularity of the human ear, perhaps using approaches that are not applying FFTs for analysis. Then, voila!, we have a new measurement regime to use for designing equipment, etc. Measurements prevail again!”

• As I had earlier said, your measuring instruments are not able to keep up with the human ear, being limited by the Fourier uncertainty principle. Do have one more read of the article - https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html

 

The way you avoid all discussion over relevant points, and fail to respond to my responses to your arguments is quite the problem Wittgenstein cautioned about whom you misquoted. I was mistaken earlier, and I am now quite convinced your indoctrination runs too deep to break through. In any case, I don’t think it matters, you seem quite happy with your quality of rationalised sound : ) - I wish you well on your journey.

 

In friendship - kevin.

You should have seriously listened to the Tambaqui when you had it there......would have blown your Topping to kindom come. 

When and where have you compared the two?

My friend with his totally new, totally tweaked Apogee Duetta speakers (yes, you can still buy brand new Apogee speakers) is constantly trying new things....

Thank you for answering but I was not asking your friend.  I am asking if you think the outlet makes a difference and you need to listen to pick the right one.  And if that does, does the cover make a difference?

Amir,

If you want the best sound possible (largest goosebumps, tears, etc.) and if you have the time, energy, money and will.....you will do whatever it takes to make your stereo amazing sounding. Obviously, this is something you have to WANT.

My friend with his totally new, totally tweaked Apogee Duetta speakers (yes, you can still buy brand new Apogee speakers) is constantly trying new things.....yes, power cords, AC sockets and plugs, Furutech cable lifters, footers, floating air tables for his amps and turntable, all my tweaky deeky things, he is off the grid with a 5000 watt inverter, uses a separate ground rod for his stereo, has ground filter, super ground wires, modded Puritan line filter after the inverter, etc. etc. He LISTENS To everything he does. He does not like all tweaks. He wants it to sound as real as possible. For instance, he has tried some of the Synergistic tweaks and finds they change the sound and make it more spacious and larger.....but he thinks it is phoney.....it is not real. His sound stage is enormous without them. He does love what my Music Purifiers and Ground Enhancers do. He listens to music way, way more than he tweaks......but he also researches when he has time all over the net for things that might improve his playback.....He recently bought a $14K phono stage from Japan (got it half off). He loves it....has had many phono stages over the years. He listens to every kind of music and attends concerts. A few years ago I asked him if he was "done"......He said.....’If you can find me more ways to reduce the noise (distortion and noise are the same thing).....then I want it". So, he keeps reducing the noise and gets bigger and bigger goosebumps. He says his distortion is so low now that he can play soprano opera singers at super high levels without a problem.  He now has way over $100K in his system.......I have maybe $6K in mine.......but I am seriously tweaky and modifiy or make my own stuff....so it sounds way, way good (makes me cry).......but nowhere near his level.

What is so cool is when you reduce the noise (audible not measured) then you not only can hear that there are 5 back up singers instead of 4.....but you hear/sense their actual presence. It sounds like people and instruments are right there playing for you.....Wow that is a Gibson guitar with Fender strings and a Maple top and his fingers are dirty and he is playing his soul song to ME. You can feel the interaction between the musicians.....you can feel the intent of the composer and players......you feel the soul of life. This is what happens when you lower the noise in your stereo. The veils go away and you are transported out of time and space into the heart of life.

You should have seriously listened to the Tambaqui when you had it there......would have blown your Topping to kindom come. But, you think they all sound the same as long as there is low measured SINAD. Too bad, you are missing so much.

Enjoy the trip. Music and audio can be a wonderful journey despite the best efforts of those who will try to convince you that you cant trust your own senses. Even more ridiculous is these people may attempt to convince you they have your best interest at they discourage experimentation.

@audition__audio - Assuming your response was directed at me, but appreciate the wisdom and understand where you're coming from. 

My take is the strong responses to ASR (and particularly to Amir) are due to arrogance, hubris and half-truths.  People have been including measurements in reviews long before ASR existed and will continue to do so after.  Gene with Audioholics comes to mind and to the best of my knowledge, Stereophile has always included measurements also (and neither has received such negative community blowback).

If all parties involved were being totally honest, they'd admit the digital side has rapidly evolved in the past few years due to a maturation of technology, which has made affordable options more accessible.  I think that's why people are getting rubbed the wrong way by ASR folks since they're claiming to have started a revolution when the revolution has already happened, is done and we're onto the next one...  --It wasn't until fairly recent where storage and networking have reached a point where it made business sense to stream lossless content, which was then followed by more mainstream hardware to do so.  Audiophiles also seem more open to directly marketed Chinese products following years of Parasound, Cambridge Audio, multiple headphone brands, etc. building goodwill--  Just to draw a parallel, it'd be like one of the video review YouTubers claming they've influenced TV manufacturers to make 4k go mainstream when its major influences were actually Blu-Ray, Netflix and gaming. 

Personally, it's been a fun journey so far and having a resource like Audiogon has been an invaluable resource. 

 

@tomic601 - Thank you! 

YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT SOMETHING SOUNDS LIKE WITHOUT LISTENING. 

I hear you but where do you draw the line?  I listen to all speakers and headphones I review.  I also listen to every headphone amplifier and portable DAC+HP amp I review.  As you go further upstream, I listen less and less.

How about you? I assume you think the power cable makes a difference so you have to listen there.  How about the AC outlet on the wall?  Do you have to listen and pick one based on that?  If so, how about the outlet cover?  Does that make an audible difference and hence you have to listen?

@pynkfloydd excellent summary of how that thread went. i for one am happy you are here :-) Enjoy the music

By now I think we all know the real Amir. Unfortunate that he found a bunch of people that seem to be as impressed with him as he is with himself. I respect anyone that builds something and because of this I get doubly upset when the ego of one person prevents proper development. Do as I plan to do. Ignore him and dont visit ASR. 

What more proof of Amir's arrogance are his own words.

I co-founded What's Best Forum (and came up with that name!).  So I speak from actual knowledge that we had battles between members like no one has ever seen.  Raging wars would better explain it. 

Bold letters to emphasize patting yourself on the back as oh so clever and smart..  Disagreement with what you were peddling you characterize as "raging wars". You had no role in the battles and were completely innocent of adding fuel to the fire?

It got so bad that I had to sell my half and go and start ASR as people became incredibly rude and intolerant of any measurement or talk of science.  In some sense, if people were cordial and respectful of everyone's opinion, ASR would not exist!

How ironic to cite rude and intolerant as reason for your departure.  Seems like that model of behavior followed you to ASR.  But, of course, rude and intolerant is perfectly acceptable at ASR when it is in support of you and measurements.  The final put down and demonstration of your superiority is another chart comparing visitors to ASR and Whats Best.  Real class on your part.

Amir has turned this thread into a rent free branch of ASR.  Abusing Audiogon with excessive cut and paste of ASR material as if sheer overwhelming volume will crush disagreement or valid criticism. 

 

Wow need to proof before posting. Who knew! Should be "have your best interest at heart as they discourage experimentation". 

Yeah academia. What a trip!

At least with some academics you get some viable arguments and up until recently discourse was encouraged. 

My advice is to trust your instincts. Take what Amir has posted on this thread and judge for yourself. Take a close look at the responses of other members and then think of your experience with people in your past that exhibit certain tendencies and judge not only who to believe but who is attempting to engage in meaningful conversation. A lecture or discourse. Further take a look at possible motivations. I respect the attempt to indoctrinate for financial gain more than an attempt to indoctrinate for the satisfaction of one person's ego. 

Read these forums, visit both sites, read what the members have to say and how they treat those with whom they disagree and take note. Further avoid people that are constantly taking about themselves and attempting to convince you of their worthiness or superiority. A true asset to this community will let others build them up and will let the hobby decide who is a true asset. Avoid people who speak in terms of absolutes and  avoid people who discourage you from buying based on anything but actual experience. 

Enjoy the trip. Music and audio can be a wonderful journey despite the best efforts of those who will try to convince you that you cant trust your own senses. Even more ridiculous is these people may attempt to convince you they have your best interest at they discourage experimentation.

Many of us will be dead soon so it is encouraging to know that there exist a few enthusiasts below the age of 50.

 

Every DAC that measures the same will sound different.....this is what those that listen know.  Every amp that measures the same will sound different.....this is what those that listen know.  Every wire that measures the same will sound different....this is what those that listen know.  

Those that do not listen?  How can they have an opinion on what they did not experience?  This is crazy.  To suppose a distortion measurement on some machines actually signifies in total how something sounds is literally insane.  NO LISTENING = NO KNOWLEDGE.......No serious listening tests to prove your measurement theories = BS......plain and simple.

YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT SOMETHING SOUNDS LIKE WITHOUT LISTENING.  You cannot know what something looks like without looking.  You cannot know what something tastes like without tasting......etc. to infinity.  Our own senses are the most scientific instruments ever existed.  We are meant to experience directly.....not live through machines.  Machines are soul less.  That is why a Amir approved cheap Topping Dac sounds soul....less.....because it was designed for MEASUREMENTS ONLY.  The designers who listen....design for good measurements and GREAT SOUND......Topping does not have great sound.  This is what all the reviews describe......Most say they are great for the money.....some say even other Dacs for the same money are better.  No one who has heard more expensive Dacs thinks the Topping DACs are as good......no one....except for Amir and his Minions.

So many opinions on how Amir & his moderators treat posters who don’t fall in line with the forum.

Funny thing, I posted a thread here about my experience of testing some AQ Dragon power cords where I didn’t hear a difference...

...I was told I was boring, just send the cables back. I was mocked for inviting my neighbors to listen & give their opinion. Then it was agreed by many that the problem was that my speakers were too close to the wall behind them, apparently just inches away (they were 48" from the wall behind them). I was told the problem was that I have a tin ear (ignoring all of the other people who came by to compare cables & heard no difference, including one man who manufactured speaker/XLR/power cables & brought his by).

@dwcda - Most people within that thread had actually encouraged your observations, agreeing that if you don't hear a difference you should send the cables back and not waste money.  Your initial response was taken as sarcasm by one individual and it seemed to have kicked off an argument between you two, which you're attributing to represent all of Audiogon.  Some unsolicited advice I can offer is to not take it personally and not to dwell on the matter.  It's the internet.  Your time and focus are better spent elsewhere.

Personally, I can say I've spend the equivalent of a new well-equipped automobile on Audiogon and AM classifieds and appreciate the personal experiences shared on forums like Audiogon that have led to those purchases.  I've met great people during these exchanges and it still amazes me when I wire a large sum and get the thing I ordered in the exact condition described on an Audiogon listing.  I am much younger than most typical audiophiles, but my first observation was/is that they're an extremely opinionated, but well-intentioned bunch.  I don't get the same impression of the folks at ASR.  They remind me of some of the bitter critical theorists I've had the displeasure of meeting whilst in academia.

To sum up, I interpreted that thread much differently than you are describing it and would encourage you to move on.

@markwd ”WRT the Wittgenstein quote, I was mentioning that it has been internalized as a way of expressing the epistemic humility of contemporary science crossed with the requirement for positive evidence of novel claims, but thanks for the clarifying context!”

You’re welcome, markwd! More later ; )

In friendship - kevin

@dwcda 

Im sorry you had a bad experience with audiogon, dwcda, and I’m glad you stayed on - that’s the nice thing about this site - it really takes a huge lot to get booted : ) - I appreciate that kind of tolerance. And there is a huge variety of members here, who come from all kinds of audiophile persuasions and beliefs - it makes for a terrific pot to hear it all; for all views to be heard; relationships between those viewpoints to be made; and clearer decisions to come to. Thrive in it. Please do not allow dissenting or even rude views to upset you - it’s a varied and wonderful place to find your own learning from. We all learn and grow from diversity and adversity, never through the agreement and laziness that homogeneity breeds.

In friendship - kevin

@kevn Well, we certainly do seem to talk past each other. Your responses demonstrate that you are not quite internalizing the problem that I put forward. Sure, we have this great hearing capability and some experimental results that suggest some curious little edge phenomena but we have no way of actually telling whether it is useful to us in the context of music reproduction and listening.

We can't design systems that exploit it or, if we do, no one has demonstrated that they have done so. For instance, let's say that human hearing can detect aspects of music that are not distinguishable based on the spectrum and that the designer figures out a way to use that to improve the system, the way to establish that is through a consistently reliable ABX test that shows this remarkable new achievement while the signal measurements are otherwise unchanged. Or, the other way to approach the problem is to figure out how to measure the ability down to the level of granularity of the human ear, perhaps using approaches that are not applying FFTs for analysis. Then, voila!, we have a new measurement regime to use for designing equipment, etc. Measurements prevail again!

The other possibility as I discussed is to figure out a theory and model for how it improves on our ability to process music and then incorporate those findings into the design phase. Hence my suggestion that there may already be some insights in the hearing-loss literature...I'm not sure how you read my comments on that as somehow suggesting I wanted to improve age-related hearing loss! To be clear: "Still, in order to do this we could use experiments that first demonstrate it will improve human hearing." means that we need experimental results that show that my proposed method of DSP-ing to counteract heterodyning/nonlinear cochlear phenomena would actually improve on the listening experience, improve our hearing, rather than artificially scramble our natural interpretation of the sonic landscape, reduce our capabilities or just be neutral.

WRT the Wittgenstein quote, I was mentioning that it has been internalized as a way of expressing the epistemic humility of contemporary science crossed with the requirement for positive evidence of novel claims, but thanks for the clarifying context!

"The main problem with ASR is Amir. If he were a congenial host who conceded that there are many ways to audio bliss which can include exotic and/or high end gear, he wouldn’t be demonized."
It certainly is. He is arrogant with little to be arrogant about. He is also rude and condescending and brooks no  counter arguments. His attitude promotes the rudeness exhibited by many, (not all I agree), of ASR members. I was ridiculed for asking about information about Dacs and asked if anyone had heard the Meitner range.
Posters on other sites have commented on how his tests are often flawed, yet he sets himself up as a Messiah.
Look at the number of people he has thrown off his site, yet he comes here and bleats. I have never met him and have no desire to do so.

 

I am glad that Amir recommended an expensive DAC.  Of course, he thinks it sounds the same as his $900 Topping......which is why he never seriously listened to it.....and if he did he would say they sound the same. 

It would.  It has to based on science of how our hearing works.  Same science predicts issues with PS Audio DSD DAC and that is what my listening tests indicated:

"Listening Tests
For subjective testing, I chose to use the recently reviewed and superb Monoprice Monolith THX 887 Balance Headphone Amplifier. This headphone amp has vanishingly low distortion and hence is completely transparent to DACs being tested. For the alternative DAC, I used my everyday Topping DX3 Pro 's line out RCA to Monolith. I then used the XLR input to connected the DirectStream DAC. Once there, I played a 1 kHz tone and used my Audio Precision analyzer to match levels using PS Audio's volume control. PS Audio claims perfection there ("bit perfect") so I figured they can't complain about that.  The final matching was 0.3 dB difference between the two.

For headphone I used DROP + MRSPEAKERS ETHER CX with its XLR connection to THX 887 amp.

I started the testing with my audiophile, audio-show, test tracks. You know, the very well recorded track with lucious detail and "black backgrounds." I immediately noticed lack of detail in PerfectWave DS DAC. It was as if someone just put a barrier between you and the source. Mind you, it was subtle but it was there. I repeated this a few times and while it was not always there with all music, I could spot it on some tracks.

Next I played some of my bass heaving tracks i use for headphone testing. Here, it was easy to notice that bass impact was softened. But also, highs were exaggerated due to higher distortion. Despite loss of high frequency hearing, I found that accentuation unpleasant. With tracks that had lisping issues with female vocals for example, the DS DAC made that a lot worse."

See?  I don't say all DACs sound the same.

Amir, why are you still here?  

As I have explained, this thread is directly about ASR.  People like to discuss the very forum I have created so I am here to give first hand answers.  You have a choice of posting anywhere in this forum yet you are hear arguing with me.  What you want me to tell you?

Amir still here?!  Come on.....let's do what he does on his forum....let's ban him forever (like he did me and many others).....Give him a taste of his own medicine.  Not serious, he is perfectly fine being here as long as he is nice......unlike how he treats people ON HIS FORUM.  He is da rulla.  He gets what he wants.

Amir, why are you still here?  You are not making any new friends.  No one believes you about your basic point of view except those that already were predisposed to false science, followers of yours, angry cynics and the like.  You are NOT gaining any sense of credibility.  The more you post the more people come out of the woodwork and talk about your gestapo tactics, etc.

I am glad that Amir recommended an expensive DAC.  Of course, he thinks it sounds the same as his $900 Topping......which is why he never seriously listened to it.....and if he did he would say they sound the same.  Everyone, please read the reviews on the Topping and then on the Tambaqui Dacs.....completely different class of transparency.....except to Amir....he even thinks stock $400 Dacs are sonically the same as the Tambaqui.  He is missing so much musical pleasure.  He is missing the soul essence of music.......which is easier to feel when your stereo has REALLY low distortion (and I am not talking about numbers measured.....but ears heard)    

I think it is time for this thread to be closed......really getting boring.  Nothing more needs to be said. 

What is the fun of being an audiophile if you cannot constantly improve the sound of your stereo and get bigger and bigger goosebumps? 

You can do that all day long with better speakers, headphones, IEMs and room response.  These are are all the areas where variability is there.  In case of speakers, you do indeed need to spend more to get more in many cases.  Even spending $100K+ on speakers would not be out of line as long as the design is right.  Getting high dynamics there is going to cost you as does deep bass extension.

With respect to DACs, you can get a superb, transparent one for a few hundred dollars and be done.  Amplifiers can cost money as you want to get as much power as you can.  You also want them quiet or you would get hiss out of the tweeter.

Screwing around with cables, footers, etc. is all waste of money based on extensive objective and subjective testing that I have done.  If that makes you unhappy, then I say you are putting higher priority on screwing around with your hardware than listening and enjoying music.

 

Speaking of WBF, my partner used to always keep telling me that he had brought all the members there and without him, we would not be anyone.  Well, look at current stats as far as visitors:

This clearly shows that the audiophile community cares about objective performance of audio gear, and science and engineering behind it. 

Look at What’s Best Audio Forum. Most posters are congenial and obliging of alternative views, anxious to hear what’s new, posing answers as to what improvements can be made to existing equipment. 

I co-founded What's Best Forum (and came up with that name!).  So I speak from actual knowledge that we had battles between members like no one has ever seen.  Raging wars would better explain it.  It got so bad that I had to sell my half and go and start ASR as people became incredibly rude and intolerant of any measurement or talk of science.  In some sense, if people were cordial and respectful of everyone's opinion, ASR would not exist!

So if you want to pick an example and say I am the bad guy, you should avoid referencing WBF.  😀

@fleschler 

Thanks for your kind words, flescher, I can get long winded too, and I’m so happy you got something from my long post. And you’re so absolutely right about magnetic tape - it is actually one of the prime reasons I believe the magnetic side of electromagnetism holds secrets we haven’t plumbed just yet - something to do with the analogue continuity of magnetic flux that we all receive some benefit of in its transmission of audio signals, while it defeats the discrete nature of digital music….and all attempts to understand the discrete measurement of it, haha. I didnt put it in only because I wanted to draw more attention to how high fidelity began rather than evolved.

On a side note, your posts over the past four years were some of the many that helped me along this amazing wonderful journey I’m on - it’s medicine unlike any other. Thank you so much!

 

In friendship ; ) - kevin

@markwd “The problem isn't that there are interesting experimental results, it's that they don't demonstrate that there is anything that can be done to audio equipment to implement better solutions to whatever gaps may be present.”

• Thank you for your reply markwd - but, like amir, you obsess over the equipment a little too much : ) - my discussion of the test was to underline the entire point of mahgister raising of it, which you again missed - it was to inform about how powerful our sense of hearing is, that we can and should reclaim that birthright instead of leaving it to handicapped measurements to do it for us. Why handicapped? Because measurements will always be limited by the Fourier uncertainty principle, while human ears aren’t. Why is that principle important? Because it limits the measurement accuracy of frequency simultaneously with time, the very foundations from which music flows. Are you following now?

 

@markwd “Now, you can suggest that somehow listening on the part of the designer is allowing them to choose between design pathways but this is just speculation. It may be true, as I noted to @mahgister, but we don't know and neither does the designer.”

• I do not suggest anything of this, markwd - it IS happening, this is how the best audio equipment designers in the world are designing their servers and DACs, while of course putting equal effort to improving power supplies, and reducing realism damaging distortion. They are simply not applying signal fidelity as much as high fidelity, to their process. Do please reread my earlier post on this : )

 

@markwd “So there is a certain faith built into all this speculation, just like god-of-the-gaps arguments in other online communities ("listening-in-the-gaps" arguments has a nice ring to it!). It's interesting but needs proof and a proper measurement methodology that shows a path forward for determining exactly how these phenomena impact equipment design and use.”

• No ‘faith’ whatsoever. Have you not read that article properly? It was a test that showed human hearing capable of bettering the limits set by the Fourier uncertainty principle - here is the link again - https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html

 

@markwd “Since you are a bit of a student of ideas in philosophy of science, one key one in contemporary thinking on the topic is lifted from Wittgenstein that we must remain silent on things we have no knowledge of and we have no knowledge of this.” 

• I believe you took Wittgenstein quite out of context - he wasn’t discussing the lack of knowledge in his quote, but the clarity with which we should be using language. The correct quote in context here - “What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent.
• Ludwig Wittgenstein: Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

 

@markwd “Until we develop it sufficiently we do have an AP and spectral sweeps.”

Yes, we might use analysers to help with room set up, but no, in fact, if the measurement of equipment is all that will be done for decisions - it is more correctly stated that until we are able to determine how to accurately measure frequency simultaneously with time, we have our more accurate ears to help us on this difficult but amazing and rewarding journey. We just need to apply ourselves to each develop our listening abilities.

 

@markwd “I'll just add one footnote to my previous post: we might actually be able to address the specific issues of heterodyning and nonlinear cochlea interactions in audio by using DSP to simply mute tones that interact in those areas of the hearing range. This would be like addressing a room mode but within the ear itself. Of course, we would be robbing the signal of its fidelity in so doing.”

• you once again fall back on signal fidelity without fully understanding it matters less than high fidelity. And ‘equipment’ (in this case the tech of DSP) is again your default to address that human laziness inherent to putting effort to developing listening ability. Markwd, you have to grasp the fact there are no shortcuts in our hobby. Measurements will bring you signal fidelity, and that’s all you’ll ever have. Be happy then.

 

@markwd “Still, in order to do this we could use experiments that first demonstrate it will improve human hearing. There is a great deal of literature on methods for overcoming hearing loss; there may be something in there concerning speech that points towards something useful for audio equipment design.”

• With all due respect, I’m concerned there may be a disconnect with how you read, and comprehend with what you write - there is nothing wrong with the human hearing apparatus. Well into our seventies, while there may be a big drop in our hearing the upper registers, all our abilities to detect frequency/time nuance is still robust and functioning - the enjoyment of music continues with every fibre in our being. What needs to improve is the development of listening ability, not the apparatus we are born with. I hope you understand that distinction.

 

In friendship ; ) - kevin

The main problem with ASR is Amir. If he were a congenial host who conceded that there are many ways to audio bliss which can include exotic and/or high end gear, he wouldn’t be demonized

You are wrong.  I own high-end gear.  I recommend high-end gear.  Here is an example:  Mola Mola Tambaqui USB DAC

 

Conclusions
The Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC shows again that just because a DAC is designed from ground up, it need not perform poorly. It is actually the opposite with it performing at the top of the class with respect to distortion and noise.

Since I am not the one paying for it for you to purchase it, it is not my issue to worry about the cost. As such, I am happy to recommend the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC based on its measured performance and functionality.

Nearly $12,000 streamer/DAC is recommended.

What I don't recommend is high-end gear that takes massive steps backward in performance, attempting to please audiophiles who believe in myths.  Here is the direct competitor to above, the PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC:

 

This is its distoriton+noise relative to frequency (in blue):

 

This is the Mola Mola (now in red):

 

PS Audio is selling you a noise and distortion generator.  Mola Mola is selling you a state of the art DAC.  Both are custom solutions.  One designer (Bruno) knows what he is doing. The other, not.

This is what measurements do.  They bring clarity and cut through marketing claims and user random opinions.  When they speak, they speak.  Build me a $100,000 DAC that performs well and it too would get a recommendation from me if it looks gorgeous, performs great and has nice and easy functionality.

You don't have an answer for these facts so resort to personal remarks and blame game.

Most problems arise when listeners make assertions in which no listening is involved. I applaud those that admit they dont hear a difference. Takes guts. In the end you listened and this is all that matters. 

FWIW, it takes alot to get banned on this forum. Which is as it should be. 

- His company is also posed as an integrator, which implies that he sells AV gear. I would wager that he sells Sound United products (Denon/Marantz), because he he’s been measuring the low sinad and granting happy panthers on Denon products. His minions go wild and feral when they hear the word "Denon".

Madrona doesn't "sell" anything.  We have no retail operation, nor online.  And no showroom.  D&M is a top AV brand and as such, have heavy requirements for demo gear, amount you sell per year, inventory, etc. before you can become a dealer.  For this reason, almost all of their dealers are big box stores.  Existing stores would also want their turf protected which makes it even harder to become such a dealer.

As a result, most AV integrators will source products through a distributor.  They mark it up so what you pay as your cost, will likely be higher than what a big box store puts them on sale!  Translation: you have no prayer of competing for business against major dealers.  For the handful of AV Receivers we install every year as part of much larger project, this is fine but if you are going to try to sell things, it is a losing proposition.

If you go one step down to Yamaha for example, you can get that line and indeed Madrona is a "dealer" for them.  After being asked repeatedly to test one of their AVRs, I bought one out of my pocket through Madrona.  See this review of Yamaha RX-V6A: 

If you are not familiar with "panther rating," the above means it is mediocre and not recommended.  That review starts this way:

"This is a review and detailed measurements of the Yamaha RX-V6A "8K" Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). They only announced two such 8K AVRs and this is the upper model. Our company (Madrona Digital) is a dealer for Yamaha so I was able to purchase this at a discount for testing. Retail cost is US $600."

Notice how the reader is put on full notice immediately on potential conflict of interest.  Needless to say, after that lackluster review, I got stuck with the unit.  No one was even interested in buying my discounted sample let alone more of them at normal price.

Back to D&M, I have repeatedly given poor ratings to their products on the Marantz side.  See this review of Marantz AV7705: 

$2,200 processor gets my "headless panther" indicating a broken design.  Why?  Because they took the Denon platform, screwed it up from usability and performance point of view, and sold it for more!

This went on and on until last year where they finally decided to give the proper option for the filter and improved the performance of the HDAM buffers based on my feedback to the company.  That then resulted in a great review:

Marantz AV10

 

So this is a great example of the impact ASR has had on the industry.  Even major companies like this are paying attention and using measurements to improve performance of their products.

To be clear, only one person has ever asked me to sell him an AV product.  That was a Yamaha and when I gave him the price, I think he decided to buy it elsewhere and that was that.  Did I tell you I hate the business of selling audio gear?  I thought I did.

@dwcda the difference is you are still here, you didn't get you posting privileges taken away.

So many opinions on how Amir & his moderators treat posters who don’t fall in line with the forum.

Funny thing, I posted a thread here about my experience of testing some AQ Dragon power cords where I didn’t hear a difference.

It was misstated twice by the same poster that previously I had auditioned $80,000 worth of Transparent cables. I assume that was to make me look foolish or like a liar. Even when I corrected the poster about the value of Transparent Super cables he persisted & repeated the lie.

Same poster referred to my experience & discussion with the dealer who sent me the Dragon cables as hearsay and doubted that I actually had the Dragons to evaluate. IOW called me a liar again.

He then referred to my posts as bullshit.

Another referred to my posts as being a part of the Naysayer Church (multiple posts referring to this Church) that wants people to blindly follow science.

I was told I was boring, just send the cables back. I was mocked for inviting my neighbors to listen & give their opinion. Then it was agreed by many that the problem was that my speakers were too close to the wall behind them, apparently just inches away (they were 48" from the wall behind them). I was told the problem was that I have a tin ear (ignoring all of the other people who came by to compare cables & heard no difference, including one man who manufactured speaker/XLR/power cables & brought his by).

In the end a poster that lived nearby came over with his speaker/XLR/power cables and a power conditioner and we had a listening session. For each change in cable he couldn’t hear a difference. When they were all connected he felt there was a small difference but wasn’t interested in a blind listening test.

After the results of that session were described the thread died. This forum isn’t hugely welcoming to people with different opinions either. I haven’t been banned yet so I’ll give you that.

@markwd You hit the nail on the head.  I was evicted by Amir from ASR a couple years ago (I knew nothing about the site at the time but noticed it was very active).  I mentioned that I preferred a digital cable and of course, maybe a dozen acolytes tore me a new one for not adopting their "cables are all the same" and "fuses are all the same if they measure the same" mantra.  I noticed another post concerning an isolation platform for large amps and they did the same to him.  ASR has a place but so many vitriolic members that it's a big negative "vibe" (ironic).  Well, I'm glad to have Audiogon and WBF forums where I can trade information and learn. 

It was J.Gordon Holt in a about 40 year old Stereophile who imagined activated carbon filtering built into walls as bass traps.  I took his advice and did the same in my 2019 custom built listening room (see my profile for details about my room).  When Von Schweikert came to set up speakers as a friend, it took only 1.25 or 1.5 hours instead of his 5 hour blocked out time frame.  The room is so well designed/built that it is a breeze to set up (without resorting to DSP).  I finally had the great sound and dispersion that I never had after 20 years of stats and then 22 years of dynamic speakers (except those Signature IIIs in my living room).  

@nonoise Gradualistic repositioning of the audio Overton window 😂

@markwd Is it me or are you damning with faint praise a bit too much?
It's getting a bit off putting.

All the best,
Nonoise

@fleschler I guess I'm still baffled by this kind of sentiment. It doesn't impinge one iota on your preferences for others to state that X or Y has better objective performance than some choice you made. You b u!

If someone says something like, well, there is no evidence that cables make a difference, to me it's worth learning why they make that claim and what reasons and testing that they are citing to back up their claim. You can of course carry on thinking that cables do matter and you can hear a difference, but at least you have learned an alternative perspective.

I guess I side with @ricevs on a happier way of engaging with online communities, though I'm calmer in general and not quite so ecstatic! 😎

Until this year, I was using Legacy Signature IIIs (superior to the Focus) which I purchased in 2004 for $1600, running them with highly modified Dynaco ST70 (tremendous bass when made a voltage regulated amp rather than ultralinear) or with a simple tube pre-amp. My friends still use older tube gear and their audio systems are fabulous sounding. I have the ability to splurge and enjoy high end sound now in my custom built room while keeping that system above for the living room (quite impressive to guests-out of the box sound that is rich, dynamic, enveloping and with great dispersion). Yet for analog, I’ve gone backwards in price and am using a Dynavector 20X2L. It is perfectly set up in a highly modified SME IV-sounds great on so many LPs rather than just the best recorded and pressed. $1100 cartridge in a $200K system plus I don’t fear using it or breaking it compared to a much more expensive cartridge. Now that I have solid state amps (Westminster Labs REI) as well, the only continuing cost is replacing the cartridge every 3 to 4 years.

The main problem with ASR is Amir. If he were a congenial host who conceded that there are many ways to audio bliss which can include exotic and/or high end gear, he wouldn’t be demonized. Look at What’s Best Audio Forum. Most posters are congenial and obliging of alternative views, anxious to hear what’s new, posing answers as to what improvements can be made to existing equipment. Generally, it’s expensive equipment. No one ever put me down when years ago I posted the question if most CD transports were not as important as the DACs. Of course I was 100% incorrect.

markwd,

Totally agree. ASR has its place.

There was a woman on Youtube describing her Near Death Experience. When she was out of her body, she experienced more love and joy than she had ever felt. After a while God told her that her time was not yet and she would have to go back into her body.......She pleaded with God, saying she was a good person and helped others, etc......which was true. Then God says to here.......did you Love them like I am loving you? She replies......How can I? I am not God!......He looks at her and says.....YOU CAN DO BETTER........and immediately she was back in her body. This is what life is about. We can do better. For we are made in the image and likeness of the almighty. Be kind. Everyone is your child. We are the children, we are the world.

@ricevs Well, it's a collection of nice sentiments, sure, but I don't see any reason not to include ASR rankings and reviews in one's journey of music and music equipment enjoyment...just another data point! You indicate some at ASR are mean but, hey, the world is filled with many types. I just ignore them and focus on the value-add.

You see how your ego driven mind will just have to come in and say "something is wrong"? This is the nature of the mind......it is a MAKE WRONG MACHINE. You understood what I was saying......you get it....yet your mind still had to find something wrong and then comment on it. You did not comment on what was right with what I said.....just what you felt was wrong. Please be greateful.....life is a constant miracle and you can continually grow and experience more of the amazing love and joy that has always existed. Wow! We are so magficient!!!!! I love you.

Every single thought you think, word you speak, feeling you feel and action you take.....has a certain vibration....that keeps creating itself over and over again. This is how we create our reality.......by the quality of thoughts, words spoken, feelings felt and deeds done. What is the quality of life you seek? Create that quality with your thoughts, etc........Watch your thougths.....for they are at the beginning of creation. Think happy thoughts....bless others....send them blessings.....stop giving the finger and instead give your heart and soul.

@ricevs I think your metaphor may have gone awry there towards the end since we can measure the differences in performance between the Civic and Corvette?

If you are on a budget, and or cynical and angry about the high end audio costs, or are very "scientifically" oriented then ASR can help you find gear and have very good sound. If you really want to appreciate the soul of music....the soul of life......then the equipment recommended there will not do the trick. There are many mansions in heaven. ASR is the lowest high end mansion. There are far more blissful and happy realms above. I recently moved my planar mid/tweeter forward relative to my woofs 3 mm.......when I hit play....I started to cry. It was so real and beautiful. You will get way more of the "soul" of the music with other gear. Yes, it costs more, but it does not have to cost a ton of money. You don’t need to have a $150K Wadax DAC to make you cry. I have a modified $400 SMSL DAC that makes me cry......but I am sure if I had a few thousand dollars to spend I could get a more expensive DAC and mod it and I would never stop crying and dancing.

This is the problem is ASR......because Amir claims that all DACs, and preamps and amps and cables all sound the same (when they measure a certain SINAD) then he is telling his minions that they have arrived at the highest level of fidelity.....all while spendng a moderate amount of money. Nice myth.....but completely untrue. He is like a primary school teacher teaching you basic math and then saying to you, that you have all the knowledge you need to make a rocket and fly to the moon. He is like a childrens softball coach saying that you can now go into the big leagues and hit a hardball out of the park. What a joke. Limited knowledge equals limited experience.

What is the fun of being an audiophile if you cannot constantly improve the sound of your stereo and get bigger and bigger goosebumps? Amir says all you need is a Topping stack, a pair of his approved book shelf speakers and generic cables and you are set for life. Then you just drop out of the audio game, because there is no where to go. You notice how angry the ASR people are? They lynched me and banned me. Not because of MY rude behaviour (which there was none). It was because I sold tweak "snake oil" things.....so I was the devil (a money grubbing scum bag). The reason they are so angry is that there is a lack of soul when you limit your experience. And they know their experience is limited.....but on an ego level....they identify with this limitation and fight for its existence. Very sad. It is so much more fun to share new ideas on how to improve your stereo. You learn from each other and you get more and more goosebumps.........or you can fight for your limitations. The ASR types go around in the forums and point fingers and say....."bad voodoo"....."bad voodoo". However, three fingers are pointing back and them.....it is all projection. They are the unhappy ones. Of course, there are people who are angry who listen and have better sounding gear. But at least they are moved to soul levels with their stereo once in a while.

However, if you stay at the bottom levels and never experience what real soul levels there are (this goes for life as well as audio) then you will be "content" in your ignorance. Ignorance is not Bliss.....Bliss is Bliss....and usually comes with great maturity......even though its a childs essence.

A Topping stack will never sound as good as a great turntable system.....maybe a cheap turntable system. There are levels and levels and levels.....it is infinite. If you want to spend very little and not look at the possibilities of things then ASR can work for you. If you want to KNOW what is possible and attain such sonic bliss then you must look elsewhere. Don’t settle for a Honda Civic (that the dealer told you was just as fast as a Corvette)........You can afford to spend a little more to get better sound. You are worth it. You are magnificient. Hondas are great. But it does not really go that fast. You want a soul ride? You want to really experience what the composer and artist intended? You want to really FEEL something beautiful and powerful and exciting? You can, you can, you can. But you must find it yourself....you must trust your experience to know what gives you goosebumps. If you follow any one persons advice to what gives you happiness then you are just their sheep.....Be a lion of knowledge....be bold and trust yourself. You can do it. It is a fun ride.....Enjoy.

I don’t understand all the hostility to Amir and ASR. He provides valuable insights and information into our hobby. As many have noted, the problems started when Tekton’s owner threatened to sue. 

I did look at ASR as several friends touted the Topping DAC, specifically, D70s as the finest in their lineup, a balance of resolution and liquidity/musicality. Well, they are relatively inexpensive and now three of us own one. Coupled with fine quality transports (mine is a Jay’s Audio CDt3 Mk3), it extracts CD quality sound rivalling analog LPs. I have replaced it with a Lampizator Poseidon at 50X (!) the cost (not getting 50X the improvement though, more incremental). ASR touted the Topping unit as the best at the time (2021?) but soon thereafter replaced it with an even lower noise version the D90. Unfortunately, new versions don’t translate into better sond, just better measurements in this instance. My prior experience with older Topping DACs was negative, just too raw sounding, an unsettling listening experience, typical in my pre-2005 feelings toward CD playback. Even my transport costs 10X the Topping. It is a truly great unit. I read last week of a high end recommendation for a $100 DAC, possibly an SMU unit that is also a huge bargain for a DAC. It’s amazing what new design technology can do to benefit music lovers to sonic bliss. I have a relatively good ear and cannot say one way or the other why one unit’s design and materials are superior to the other as I have inadequate electrical knowledge but I am shocked at how affordable DACs (and for others who stream) good sound is available.