Lewm: " I do think he (Art Dudley) is a fine writer, in contrast to many."Yes, I agree and he's a delight to read. It's just a shame that such usually open-minded writer has such blindness towards one genre of products without even looking into their inner workings before dismissing them. Sometimes you just have to look for the "soul" of a turntable. _______ |
I can confirm the Final Labs Parthenon was reviewed by TAS, first by Harry Pearson and then by Warwick Mickell who was a TAS writer based in Japan. I own the unit reviewed by Warwick, a personal friend. Unfortunately HP insisted on putting a high mass turnable onto an unstable air platform, against the designers advice and although HP liked the tt he commented on the bloated upper base. It is still more advanced than most heavy mass tt's built today and the Micros & Melcos. The motor controller includes reconstructed power supply sine and cosine waves, to provide stability for the motor controller/motor, the ability to adjust the torque applied to the thread drive and precise independent 10 turn potentiometers to dial in 33 & 45. In my experience both the high mass turntables and the top direct drives, the L07D and Technics SP10mk3, got poor reviews due primarily to poor set up and incompatibilities with tonearms of the day. Many of the tonearms in those days had resonances and required careful matching to the tt and armboards of the day. |
HiHo other mid to late 1970s mass loaded designs, Melco including the Final Labs Parthenon from what I understand is a sophisticated advanced design for it's time also from the 1970s. Either ignored or mis-used by TAS if they ever had one to test. Instead the LP12 reins supreme at Sea Cliff during this time period. Briefly more about the Final Labs member Dover uses one and I think Johnathan Carr of Lyra fame also has one if i'm not mistaken. Topclass audio have some Melcos and currant production? Final Labs for sale if anyone want to buy one or two. |
Lewm: "What's a "Melco"?"Here's some Melco history and info: http://www.soundfountain.com/beltdrive/belt-drive-turntable.html http://www.melcoinc.com/english/business/history.html http://www.soundfountain.com/beltdrive/melco_500.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v681/cids/MelcoTT.jpg http://www.topclassaudio.com/web/eng/used_product_details.jsp?gid=5699 http://www.topclassaudio.com/web/eng/used_product_details.jsp?gid=5618 ______ |
Art Dudley has never really changed. However, he is recently in love with Garrard and Thorens and out of love with Linn LP12. (In_shore, "Linn Ittok" is a tonearm. The turntable is "LP12".) But as recently as last year, Art Dudley scoffed at all direct-drive turntables, remarking that putting the motor so near to the platter made no sense to him in terms of noise. Apparently he has never investigated the construction of the better dd turntables, wherein the platter is essentially the rotor of the motor itself. Ergo, there is no source of noise, only bearing friction can contribute noise, just as for any other type of turntable. How he can diss a whole class of products on the one hand and be so monotheistic about arcane Japanese electronics, like Shindo, on another, is beyond me. But I do think he is a fine writer, in contrast to many. Prcinka, What's a "Melco"? |
In_shore: "Mass loaded designs were not in favour and none of the Micro Seiki's were ever reviewed as far as I can remember."The Micro-Seiki RX-1500 was reviewed by Steve Watkinson in the November 1987 issue of Stereophile, page 108-110. It was a negative review and MS never recovered from the market place and lost distribution in the west since then. In fact the mass loaded genre never got attention until Dick Olsher gave a rave review to the Aura turntable from New Zealand. Of course, decades of Linn dominance and hardcore Linnies from the likes of Art Dudley didn't help either. The RX-1500 review was probably the worst review from the magazine by a no name reviewer, whose reference turntable is a Sota Star Sapphire. It was rather biased from the get-go by saying... "Turntables seem to be a frequently targeted item for Japanese manufacturers attempting to break out of the mid-fi mold and expand into the high end. Both Nakamichi and Denon have offered several supposedly audiophile turntable models in recent years which, despite a number of fancy gimmicks, failed to generate much enthusiasm in the audiophile community." And the writer concludes with this: "The RX-1500 is the type of product that distinguishes between the true audiophile and the yuppie technofreak. In a sense, it provides a valuable service: the yuppie can at least enjoy audiophile-quality sound. This is more than the high-tech direct-drive turntable wonders from the large Japanese manufacturers allow."Wow, what drivel! The manufacturer's retort was also a hoot to read. I can't find an online copy of the review but perhaps when I have time I might transcribe the whole thing for all to read. If you look around in the high end turntable marketplace today, mass loaded designs influenced by Micro-Seiki is everywhere. What does that prove? All the yuppies turned audiophiles? ;-) _______ |
Some of Syntax's comment's are like a bran muffin for the brain. If my memory is correct Linn Ittok was Harry Person's reference for sometime earning back then the magazines pregidous 4 out of 5 star rating while tables like for example the Micro Seiki RX 5000 including other all out designs during that time period were briefly mentioned included with criticism. Mass loaded designs were not in favour and none of the Micro Seiki's were ever reviewed as far as I can remember. During the early 1980s sales of the Linn skyrocketed with Harry's praises up until some of the writers of TAS including some owners found glaring fault's with the Linn which some were voiced in letters to the editor. No social media back then to voice your opinion or read others not like today but sometimes the forest is just full of tree's. |
Some time ago I was at a phono stage demo. The reviewer used his own Linn LP12 (ok, he was a Linnie and got some money from them) and when he put the needle into the first groove he started walking with head shaken' and finger snipping'...but the music has not started yet. My neighbour whispered: "Is he sick?" I answered: "Yes. Ebola virus. Stay away from him" High End can be dangerous.... |
Syntax I had direct experience with a black table purchased to see what all the chat was about, believing this chat it would float the music like a butterfly but instead it stung like a bee. Inna you need cable risers? I retired from Hydro One and can get you special audiophile select cryogenic treated risers with custom soul paint job for 20 % discount. Audiophiles that use them report a living presnts to their music. |
Because of Syntax I thought about Germans and then about Hegel and his method of 'opposites'. For each concept there is the opposite one,then the opposites of the opposites etc. Say: objective-subjective; inside- outside; on one hand and the other,good- bad etc.,etc,. Now 'the soul' is of course the opposite of the physical so we get 'metaphysical' speculations about inanimate physical objects like turntables. To my mind such kind of speculation should be allowed only for the speakers . Ie those are 'essential' while, according to Aristoteles, only the essences are important. Regards, |
In a recent interview, Frank Kuzma had a Q&A exchange in the following: Q: "Is there a place for mystics in audio or simply good and great engineering?" Maybe all this talk about turntable with "soul" is just good and/or bad engineering that people forgot to talk about. Ok, I'm done. _______ |
Rhythm is perhaps a foundation of music but not a "location" of soul of it. And much music actually lacks anything that could be called that.Really – maybe to you but not to the fans of the music that you are referring to. As for turntables being machines made by humans, well, first of all people are machines too just of a very different type and second exactly because things are made by people they have soul too, or they don't.Again really – interesting The only people I have come across that have no soul were dead at funerals. Not pleasant. Every living person has soul and each of them given music that hits home with them will show you their soul. Frogman nailed it. |
Rhythm is perhaps a foundation of music but not a "location" of soul of it. And much music actually lacks anything that could be called that. As for turntables being machines made by humans, well, first of all people are machines too just of a very different type and second exactly because things are made by people they have soul too, or they don't. |
A turntable cannot have soul (soul, not A soul); it is a machine. Music has soul. Some turntables reproduce more of the soul of a musical performance than other turntables because they are better machines; they let more of the rhythmic nuance in a performance be heard undistorted. Rhythm is where the soul of music lies. |
I found that as I tried to increase the damping of my TT's plinth I gained clarity but lost the "soul". Happily, I did find a balanced place where I was able to damp the plinth and retain the soul of the music. From this I would say that overdamping anything can remove the sould from the music. Have you ever heard an overdamped room. It just doesn't sound natural. I think the same applies to components. You can reduce vibrations and unnecessary jiggly stuff, but if you go too far it starts to sound dry and uninvolving. Is this distortion or coloration? Yeah, probably, but it is far more enjoyable than an over detailed, dry, unforgiving and joyless sound. |
Almost everything about this hobby is wildly subjective. That's why an exit point was so easy to find for me. Just pick the set of colorations and sound that you like, then play your music and smile. Linn would always talk about "pace" and "musicality." Assuming that a turntable's speed is accurate, the factors that will have an effect on what you hear are mechanical, rather that ephemeral. A well-damped, heavy turntable can have silent soundstages and killer bass, because of that immense foundation. But I just don't believe that any turntable plays music, assuming that speed and setup are accurate, better than any other. The notion of "soul" is unfathomable to me. |
As an atheist, this soul topic is rather pointless to me but I understand the poetic attraction of it. A turntable or any hardware is just a product, a thing, made by people and its design and mechanism reflect the mind of its maker. But very often, I believe, the designers themselves are clueless. Sometimes, it's just a happy accident. Sometimes not. I think most sonic traits or inherent qualities are quantifiable if we look close enough... To me, the degree of "soul" or soulfulness in a turntable depends on the motor and the compliance of the interface, be it a belt, an idler wheel, or magnetic force. So the degree of three major components, Torque, Compliance, and Cogging play into the overall sound or tonal character of a turntable. Hypothetically, if we have several turntables using the same material and parts, how a designer dial up or down these three things will determine the majority of the sound in each table. Material, mass, isolation, vibration control, machining tolerance, execution, etc... fill up the rest of the recipe. I think the motor is the heart of a turntable. Your mileage or soul-meter may vary. _____ |
Hmmm... Nandric, Perhaps I should do some R&D to find out if there are audio components made in (Wherever) first or what components they're using and if they're being somehow blessed by Central Commitee. I've also ommited some other means of blessing by buddhist or krishna, but the main point had been made. Whatever... PS: If the manufacturer is jewish, it's blessed 100% by rabby for each product line it builds. It's a must for jew to bless the whole business and each product line individually. No blessing -- No success. |
I think you (Inna) are conflating "soul" with what Harry Pearson first called a "dark" sound. And having owned a Notts Hyperspace, I can agree that on that basis the Notts had soul. I am going to guess that tt's with big heavy platters and belt drive, especially where the belt is rubber or anything with compliance, will be said to have soul. This is NOT a bad thing, IMO. On the other hand, I would say that, comparing my Kenwood L07D to my Technics SP10 Mk3 (two very fine direct-drive tts with rather heavy platters, as dd tables go), the L07D has more soul than does the Mk3. Maybe core-less motors (a la the L07D) also tend toward soulful sounds. And this topic is NOT worth 6000 posts, Nikola. |
Turntable design...Soul ... Love ... Pace...Rhythm ...Timing... and more Basis knowledge for High End Design Keep spinnin' |
I think you (Inna) are conflating "soul" with what Harry Pearson first called a "dark" sound. And having owned a Notts Hyperspace, I can agree that on that basis the Notts had soul. I am going to guess that tt's with big heavy platters and belt drive, especially where the belt is rubber or anything with compliance, will be said to have soul. This is NOT a bad thing, IMO. On the other hand, I would say that, comparing my Kenwood L07D to my Technics SP10 Mk3 (two very fine direct-drive tts with rather heavy platters, as dd tables go), the L07D has more soul than does the Mk3. Maybe core-less motors (a la the L07D) also tend toward soulful sounds. And this topic is NOT worth 6000 posts, Nikola. |
Yes, the term "Soul" may be vague, but I know it when I hear it. My ARXA has soul in spades. My Well Tempered has soul. I think both my Thorens TD 166 Mk 11 and Space Deck lack a bit of soul in comparison. My Sota had no Soul whatsoever. I remember some audio reviewer asking if a particular big buck major turntable could "boogie" because "many of them cannot". This I think is similar to the Soul issue. I'm sitting here trying, but I just can't actually define "Soul" I think speakers also can have or have not "Soul" Perhaps because they too are "acoustic" instruments rather than electronics. Like a fine violin or cello, this comes from a mechanical/acoustical sound created by the materials of their own composition. Even the varnish on the wood can affect the sound, as well as the Soul. |
