Rnm4, Glad to meet someone who is also interested in Frege.
He wrote this article 'Uber die Algemeinheit' (generality)
to explain the use of expressions like 'all', 'some', etc.
and never used expression 'quantifier' because this expression was not used in his time. You can't attribute your first statement to Frege as far as I know.
Regarding the 'context' : 'Nur in Zusammenhang des Satzes
hat ein Wort Bedeutung' is the so called 'compositionality principle' . Ie a sentence is an composition , composed from different parts so to anylise a sentence one need to 'decompose' it. Also an sentence need to be 'abgeschlossen' . Ie a sentence need to be a complete whole. Frege was primary interested in 'scientific sentences' those which are true or false. He wanted to construct an scientific language. Now consider an mathematical or particle physics statement. Should the mathematician also state that his sentence is in the 'context' of mathematics while our physicist should add that his statement is in the context of physics?
Why should Frege provide any explanation of sentences which
are not truth functional? Say 'propositional attitudes'.
He wrote about 'common language' only to illustrate why
'we' need according to him a more precise language.
His Begriffsschrift (aka new logic) was meant as such.
Regarding Frege-Wittgenetein you should read their correspondence in which Frege made comment about Tractatus.
There you can also find Frege's remarks about Wittgensteins use of 'S is P' sentence form.
Not to avoid your statement: ''no ,you can't analyse every
sentence because you have read Frege'' I must admit that you are right.
Regards,
|
Orpheus10
I guess someone thought things were getting out of hand. It always seems like whenever the attacked responds, things are getting out of hand. :) I have no idea who controls all this. I don't think audiofiel has that power. |
I wanted to make another post, why did they stop new posts. |
|
Orpheus10:
The thread can still be read, but will not accept new posts. Everything I said is still there. I can be a smart ass or wise ass or a pain in the ass, but Audiofiel is a NASTY person. Look at and read his track record. He called everyone on this thread 'buffoons' for no reason. this was not his thread, and Inna, the OP, was still engaged. Thread was not highjacked. He takes pleasure in humiliating and embarrassing other people. I hate that. I think FROGMAN is ok, just views himself as a member of the old guard. Maintaining standards as he sees them. If you can't open the thread I can send you my post. |
Rok, HAHAHAHAHA oh shit that was great |
Rok2id, what did you say to make Audiofiel shut down that thread on protocol. I tried to start a similar thread but they didn't accept it. |
Nandric:
Since you and I are now friends, I would like to offer my apology for calling you french. I know we exchanged insults 'in the heat of battle', but there is never a reason to call a non-french person french. That was uncalled for and way beyond the pale. Peace. |
Rnm4, that was a little too much for me though I did manage to finish high school, barely. What the hell does it all mean? Just translate it into "Kentucky English", will you?
No, France won't take them back, but if they want to become a new French province France might agree. |
Timeltel
I'm glad that you understood the satire without reading far too much into it, humour can cure many afflictions.
Also I'm flattered that you would welcome me to tip a few on your porch, swap stories and enjoy some music.
Kentucky is a beautiful State and I picture your place in a very tranquil rural setting, it's all good.
Timeltel here's a bit of more humour.
I found Nandric referring to me as a French Canadian as satire good humour that fits well up here.
In Canada we have the Province of Quebec with about 8 million French speaking Canadians with many that dislike the rest of English speaking Canada, this issue kind of ties in with Riks perception of the country of France itself.
It's not uncommon while visiting in Quebec to be treated rudely and at times to be told in broken English, no speak English.
I scrugg it off but others have found if you wear an American pin flag on your lapel and try to pass yourself off as an American, you will get clear well spoken English back at you along with far better service.
Some Quebecers refuse to learn English, one high profile case was Celine Dion. She finally had to learn English if she wanted her career as a singer to go anywhere.
There are immigrants to this country that all ready know how to speak English before they even arrive.
Well this is the French Canada and France won't take them back.
Nandric
Innuendos and put downs mean nothing to me over the net and this is how I perceived your curator after reading the following.
You said, I progressed from a worm and even French which was meant by Rik to be a stronger insult via Dutch scum to a wild Serbian warrior.
Not bad result I think from two days of discussion.
No rebuttal, you didn't even flinch, I just found that paragraph comical,...Oh well |
Hey Nandric,
1) They are called "universal" quantifiers because they they say that the sentential function is true of everything, not because every generalization contains one.
2) Frege may not (or may) have used the word translated as "context", but there are at least three senses in which context was crucial to Frege's thinking. One is the so-called Context Principle, that only in the context of a sentence does a word have a meaning. Another is the idea of an opaque or intensional context, in which the principle of substitutional of co-referential terms salva vertitate does not hold -- or rather, as Frege would have it, in which we have to treat the customary sense as the referent in order that that principle hold. A third is in the case of determining the referents of indexicals.
3. There are ever so many kinds of sentences of which Frege never managed to give an adequate logical analysis, and while some progress has been made since his day, there remain many for which no such generally accepted analysis is forthcoming. These include sentences involving deontological elements, sentences involving attitude attributions, sentences involving explanation, and many more. So no, YOU can't analyze every sentence because you have read Frege.
4. Wittgenstein sure as heck did understand Frege's analysis of subject predicate sentences. he also took Frege's own context principle far more seriously than Frege himself did.
You are right about one thing. You haven't completed your study of Frege. |
YES- The post-nazis have closed the thread about, 'Post Protocol.' So much for our First Amendment rights to Freedom of Speech. Given how badly this site now $UCKS, with it's, "new improvements", perhaps it will become, 'AudioGONE' before long! |
Nothing is blocked as far as I can tell. I suggest we all learn Bavarian and write here in that language. Kind of going underground. I hate censorship, it is intolerable to an anarchist. |
I think posts to Inna's other thread are being blocked. Maybe the Frog and Blowhard Bill have more power than we thought. |
Marakanetz, My own experience from the communist Yugoslavia
is that it may be possible to forbide people to publish their thoughts but it is impossible to forbide people to think what they think. I have no idea why they refuse to switch to the former site.
Rok 2id, I am glad to see that you are able to make jokes
about your self. As with your German you are learning very
fast. With all of your experience you must be able to tell
us very interesting stories. 'Shoot' as it is called.
Regards, |
There was a post about how horrible audiogon now with all it's new beta cwap posted yesterday and it dissapeared. They don't want to see people bashing it for a reason. For this one moderators would not care.
Piece. |
"This 'great' German philosopher had no idea what he was talking about."
Now this is news! Now when people say I don't know what i'm talking about, I will say at least I am in good company. |
Dear Professor, Any general statement involve quantifiers.
That is why they are called 'universal quantifiers'. The
'some' as existential one (There is some x, such that) imply the existance of some entity. I stated that I am able to logicaly anylise any statment made, not because I am smarter, but because I learned this from Frege. I spend more then 20 years for my study of Frege and am still learning. Frege nowhere mentioned 'contex'. It was Wittgenstein who made this 'reproach' to Frege but from their correspondence it is clear that Wittgenstein never
understud Frege's explanation of 'S is P' sentence form.
Wittgenstein used this sentence form his whole life with
as consequence that nobody knows what he realy meant. Ie with 'context' one can enter any forest or labyrinth of the so called 'çoncepts' as is so evident with Kant and Hegel.
Desperate to find the way out from all the concepts he invented Hegel concluded: there is the unity of the opposits and even the unity of the contradictory. This 'great' German philosopher had no idea what he was talking about. As Frege also explained : a concept is a fuction with one argument while the relation is a function with two or more arguments. Those functions are of course expressions containing varibles such that by replacing variables with 'names' one get an 'real sentence'. Frege was btw the first to state that the sentence and not the 'concept' or a word is the basis for any linquistic and scientific analysis.
Regards, |
Regards, Nikola: Twice, in less than twenty-four hours, you have taken what I've written out of context. The error is yours.
Chocolate
Peace, |
Dear Thuchan, As you already know I speak 5 languages. I wrote many e-mails to you in German and you was very kind reg. your valuation of my German. As a military historian you should know that Russian was an obligatory subject in the educational system of the Eastern bloc.Ie you may missed my Russian. I know that language capabilities make one 'richer' in social-cultural sense but, alas, not smarter. One of course need some language to put his thoughts in the linquistic form. But if one has not a clear
thought no language will be of ony help. Wittgenstein thougt that thinking and speaking are the same. But I was always skeptical about this as well of other of his theories. To me he was always some kind of 'second hand' Frege who was his 'intellectual father' btw. Recent research has shown that he was wrong. My own case would be very confusing btw. Ie I would need to answer the question in which language I thought the things that I stated. Say: 'as the Dutch bastard', 'the German Nazi','the Serbian murderer',etc.
However I am sure that Rik is no more thinking about me as a 'Frenchy'(dank God), Dutchman, etc. but as a individual person with whom he can exchange his thoughts. Idem Ninna I would hope.
Regards, |
Dear Timetel,
in your case you may show up again after 29 posts. What is your favourite shake?
Dear Nandric, Inna, Rok2id,
Don't forget that learning a language enabels you to understand the culture of a nation or region much better. Having learned no other language sometimes supports building up mental barriers.
Best @ Fun Only |
Dear Professor, My graetest intellectul debt is to Frege,
the German logician, mathematician and phylosopher (of science). For some strange reasons he still has the most 'students' in the USA and is rarely known in Germany. I learned English by myself to be able to read about him because the most publications were in English. Thanks to Frege I am able to analyse any statement made in logical
way. The most 'logical errors' are made because of the deceitful simplicity of the 'subject-predicat' form. Frege was the first to explain 5 different logical contents 'hidden' in the 'S is P' sentence form.
Rik obviously thought that he needs to know first from which country I am to be able to 'çharacterize' me. However he already had a preconception of what a Frenchman, Dutchman, German, etc. 'are'. I as a individual person was actually not relevant. His logical error was to think that 'all Germans are Fx&Gx' is somehow clear and stuffed with 'meaning' as well with 'reference'. This sentence is however the so called 'sentencial function' which means a sentence which contains variables. Variables
are not names but logical places in which one need to put
some name to make a sentence from a sentencial function.
If Rik thinks to know what 'all' refers to then he must be
also able to know what 'some' refers to. Both are quantifiers. If so he can become the reachest American ever in two years time by providing names by :'someone has
stolen my car', 'someone has stolen my x' etc.
You stated that some of us in this discussion use 'sterotypes' but your own 'typical American' is a prototype of a 'sterotype'. You dear Professor also made logical error connected with quantifiers.
Regards, |
Dear Rok2id, You are 100% right. Anyway according to my own
experience. I learned better German in 4 months in Austria
then in 4 years at school. I learned Dutch in 4 months and
was able to follow lectures at the university in Utrecht.
I was forced to learn Dutch very fast because the Dutch refused to speak German with me. But they prefer to speak English with English speakers so the English speakers get
no chance to learn Dutch. There are even schools and faculties with English as official language. When I come to Holland the students at high school learned 3 foreign
languages (German, French and English) while gymnasium students learned also old Greek and Latin. At present only at gymnasium is so much attention for the languages. The Dutch phylosophy was that in a 'open economy' like Holland
but also because of the Dutch spirit of comerce the languages are very important.
Regards, |
Regards, Nandric: Nikola, my reply concerned what constituted a "typical" American. As one of the two examples of that peculiar species hanging around on this thread I felt it somewhat incumbent to respond, it had nothing to do with the "tall people" comments. You were simply faster to the enter key. Had I read your post first it would have been modified. Please accept this clarification.
Meanwhile, our forum brother was having a jolly good time with those "American" jibes. It was percieved as such and offense was neither received nor intentionally given in return, as have been none of the other comments concerning the U.S. Ethnocentrism and its sources are easily understood, sometimes justifiable and rarely a thing to be ashamed of. There is little reason to become upset about it. Rational discussion and amicable resolution of differing views should be attainable considering the obvious educational attainment of (at least) the other participants.
In the spirit of give and take and in good humor, In_shore could tease to an even greater degree and still be a welcome guest in my backwoods Kentucky home. We could trade a few ripostes, perhaps down a few and spin some vinyl on my beat up old rig while watching the deer pee in the front yard. Yeah, In_shore, right here/right now, being an American is good. There have, though, been times---
Think I'll sit the next few out. Bash away.
Peace, |
Nandric:
"I know some Americans who live in Holland for more then
10 years but are not able to construct one decent sentence in Dutch. In Holland, you know, even kids speak English."
Tha fact that almost all dutch people speak english is the reason the Americans there never learn Dutch. It's the same way in the military, no matter what country you are in, the people you deal with speak english.
Once in Germany I enrolled in a German language class. The professor, a german, said the first time the class met that he would never speak a word of english in the rest of the classes. He didn't, and I learned more german than I ever thought I would. It is amazing how fast you can learn a language when you have no choice. |
I meant that though they all speak English, they do not quite understand the meaning of what others are saying.
In New York City area there are many very well educated people, some of them even speak "rare" languages- Dutch, Danish, Catalan etc. But if you take rural South Carolina or even rural New York state than yeah, the educational level can be very low. America is a land of contrasts. |
Dear Inna, I am really confused by your linquistic toughts.
If the most Americans speak no foreign languages how can
they 'often speak (in) different languages'? Do you mean
Mexicans, Chinese, Russian, etc. who live in America?
BTW I assume that they also share in this remarcable 'status' of being Americans.
What is the point of the fact, if it is a fact, that 'quite
a few ...speak at least three foreign languages'? Why three
and why at least? Why should they anyway when English is the dominant language in the whole world?
I know some Americans who live in Holland for more then
10 years but are not able to construct one decent sentence in Dutch. In Holland, you know, even kids speak English.
Regards, |
In_Shore, I was alas not able to find any humor in your first two sentences. In this regard I obviosly have some other sense for humor then Timeltel. However you remarks were addressed to me and not to him.
Your reference to my 'evolution' from a 'worm',etc., missed an important part of my 'meaning'. The fact that despite the inicial insulting qualifications from Rambo Rik to my account we are now 'good comrades' and able to discuss any question in a neat way. We agree to disagree about some questions but can agree on some other. Nobody
claims the apsolute truth for himself. So actually we don't need comments from those who don't participate in this discussion but have some problems with some of the participants.
Regards, |
There are quite a few Americans who speak at least three foreign languages. On the other hand, there are those who don't know that there are other countries. America is very diverse, that's good, but it's also a problem. Americans do often speak different languages while talking to each other. More so, I guess, than Dutch, Canadians or even French. |
Timeltel,
Rest Assured I have a few close American friends, lived myself in the U.S., Saw and experienced countless wonderful things and I will continue my travels in that great country.
It's a good thing most Americans think they live in the greatest country on the planet, I like my small population.
|
difficult should been different |
In_shore:
Conscientious:
: governed by or conforming to the dictates of conscience : SCRUPULOUS *a conscientious public servant*
2 : METICULOUS, CAREFUL *a conscientious listener
Given the context, I don't understand your point, but we'll just leave it at that. If by chance, you mean that what I said about collaborators does not apply to EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN EUROPE, then I concur. But this does not change the validity of what I said one iota.
It is difficult to converse with people that speak a difficult language. But I commend you all on your grasp of English, because if I had to speak your language, this would have been a one sided short conversation. BTW, that is one thing we can all criticize Americans for, lack of widespread ability to speak a foreign language. |
Nandric
I found humour in your comment with your discription progressing from a worm, Dutch scum to Frenchman then to mountain Serbian, Now I don't know why you reacted the way you did with me as opposed to someone referring to you as a worm and Dutch scum,...is a little much don't you think?
Your reaction to my comment about straining your neck that Dutch people are tall, well they are! and very tall at that.
You think I was insulting you somehow?? WOW
My wife is Dutch and she stands 6 feet and when we are in the Netherlands visiting her family, it's like the land of the giants all around you.
|
Regards, In_shore: I'm amused by the evidence of good humor in your post, as such you avoid the error of stereotypification in evidence in previous posts by certain others. This peculiar form of irrationality is much like stating the "typical" DD turntable has no soul whereas the "typical" belt drive does, or that the "typical" Canadian is considered well-mannered if he uses his own (instead of anothers') snowmobile keys to scratch his ears.
As there have been no reports of an impending polar bear invasion of Toronto, isn't it obvious that the combined psychokinetic might of American intellectuals was sufficient to relieve the residents of that event?
And yes, it's true that SOME could benefit by extending their awareness of the impact of geography on politics and economics, or simply to glorify in the wonder of strange and exotic places. It is also a fact that many have done so, this is evidenced by the NAFTA treaty, for which all Americans sacrifice a degree of personal financial security in order to build and maintain a stronger alliance with our good neighbors to both the north and south.
I believe this is close enough to thirty posts since my last to this thought-provoking thread, I'm going for my milkshake and wait for the next twenty-nine ;-). Meanwhile I'll give consideration to wether or not Chinese turntables have karma, I suspect they are the next major "players" in the production of audio gear. Chocolate.
Inna, don't worry about the Canadians. Or the Swedes. The Swedes have their home militia, the Canadians their blackflies and 'skeeters as big as sparrows. And those pesky polar bears.
Peace, |
Now I feel the need to defend Canada. Why is national identity so important and easily offended? |
In Shore, Sarcasm is a dangerous weapon in the hands of an
nitwit. To postulate some specific status for all Americans
speaks 'volums' about your intellect. As I alredy mentioned I got my Law degree in Holland and will add that I was university teacher for 35 years. I live in Holland for more than 40 years and because I am 190 cm tall I don't need to look up to anyone in Holland. You are probable a 'French Canadian' in the sense of 'French' as our Rambo Rik suggested. What is btw your competence regarding the Americans? You obviously like to speak in their name. I am sure Rambo Rik will protest. Do you use your Kalashnikov to earn your money? I will be not suprised at all if this is the case.
|
Roc,
You mention above the conscientious of the civilian population in war torn Europe during that time, really? is that a fact.
Blow a little harder, you should actually have conversations with a verity of nationals including veterans of both sides to get an inkling of the mind set and times.
Have you watched Rick Mercer yet?
Bye
|
"you being American it's just your comments and views of other nations and their peoples are typically skewed and misinformed.
What I mean by typical American knowledge of World history and geography, it's blatantly evident it's not your strong point for many of you."
In_shore: I do believe you are evading answering my question. I hate to sound like a broken record, but these are serious 'charges', so I should get the benefit of chapter and verse as pertains to my so-called lack of knowledge. This has nothing to do with Bush or polar bears. We are speaking of world war in Europe. Please point out my errors. If you can't, I will just assume you spoke in haste without thinking and regret your statement. Apology accepted. |
Nadric good for you, your moving up the evolution scale however some may out of prejudice and pure ignorance will view you never reaching the status that of an American, but I doubt this would bother you. May I ask when you made the Netherlands your new home did you get neck strains looking up at all those tall people?
Roc, not accurate,you being American it's just your comments and views of other nations and their peoples are typically skewed and misinformed.
What I mean by typical American knowledge of World history and geography, it's blatantly evident it's not your strong point for many of you.
Google "Rick Mercer Talking to Americans" including a folly of episodes of interviews with George Bush even educated? university professors including students signing a petition stopping the Polar Bear hunt in Toronto, just for an example.
Don't take offence we Canadians like to poke harmless fun at Americans because of our own personal experiences and the examples with Rick Mercer.
You being in the military you maybe interested to know your and my citizen history going back to the American Civil War including every other conflict,we are freely to cross boarders to sign up.
Inna, I have never had to use my AK on some threatening animal so far, the ak is compact with a modified folding stock and fits nicely into a back pack.
On remote fishing trips when the float plane drops us off in the middle of no where for a week, the AK is a comfort to have.
The old adage, it's best to have a gun and not need it then to need a gun and not have one. |
In the first place this is, I hope, an 'open forum'. There
are threads (topics) with technical and musical issues for
which , to be relevant in dogmatic sense, one will need
Ph.D in electronics or musical academy. Ie each discipline
has its own vocabulary. This thread is actually very vaque
in technical and musical sense. I would prefer,say, attitude above the 'soul'. If there is such a thing as the 'soul' then probable this will be one and the same thing in overyone or in anything. This is obviously not the precondition for the attitudes. We all may have different kinds. If this thread was within the (dogmatic)bondaries
of the 'soul in the TT' issue I don't believe we will agree
on anything. Ie any consensus was from the start not possible. But thanks to the 'open kind' of our discussion I was able to learn more about Inna, Rambo Rik, Marakanetz, etc. and change my mind about them. My first impression was
'religious fanatics' with God as 'éxplanation' of everything . As a atheist I am allergic for such kind of discussion. However I learned how eloquent Inna actually is
that Rambo rik is not a war-horse and Marakanetz is one sensitive and nice guy. This is to me the advantage of an 'open discussion'. From the other side I also noticed some
change in the attitude of Inna and Rambo Rik against me.
I progressed from a 'worm' and even 'French' which was meant by Rik to be a stronger insult, via 'Dutch scum' to a 'wild Serbian worrior'. Not a bad result I should think from two days of discussion.
Regards, |
Thuchan,
Exactly. I like your very relevant straightforwardness and clarity of thought.
No we shouldn't ignore them but nor should we pay much attention to them if they continue like that.
Why would anyone need an assault rifle in Canadian outdoors? A good rifle, yes, but machine gun? |
In_shore:
Well talking about AK's is fine, but you did say my posts were not accurate. You just gonna leave it at that? Not accurate or you just didn't like what I said? There is a difference. |
Inna,
I learned this is the usual way:
while some guys are participating in a thread there are others who like reading only. Just fine!
But some very special individuals show up every 30 posts, put their ass on the table and declare: You have forgotten me, I am important! I cannot add any substantial argument but I wanna tell you what you are doing is crap, useless, BS, needs to be cencored, I will tell it daddy... otherwise I feel uncomfortable or I need to show it to my gang behind me that I am the "mighty overruler".
oh yes, come on go back into the kitchen, drink your milk shake and tell it daddy - and feel better. Yes you are important...
Maybe we just ignore these wonderful people...
best @ fun only |
Rok2id I would rather talk about one of my favorite rifles instead.
Romania manufactured during the Cold War era this AK47 is beautifully made of that regions high quality steel, it has reliability and ruggedness to the extreme,and very comfortable to fire. It travels with me in remote Canada. |
"Rok2id I find many of your comments of WorldWar History not so accurate"
Well I asked you to name them. |
Audiofeil and Frogman, Innas thread is a refreshing distraction while Audiogon is in Beta mode^->
Rok2id I find many of your comments of WorldWar History not so accurate.
Hey it's not your fault and PLEASE don't rush to any rash conclusions I can't help you. |
Rok2id, some people do want to participate but don't know how. Frogman is one of them. Let them find their own way, whatever this is. |
"History lessons from your T.V.?? Shoot it,..."
What's your point? What's your problem with historical documentaries on TV? More interesting and factual than the shallow, superficial, feel good stuff, taught in the public schools. BTW, did I say something that is not accurate?
FWIW, if the audio threads were more compelling, most members would not get into politics / history. I would suggest deleteing the 'cables' forum and create an 'audio basics' forum instead. Rookies only. Real rookies. |
Rok2id
History lessons from your T.V.?? Shoot it,... |
His turntable is piece of junk, that's what bothers him. |
