Solo streamer

@audphile1 @rvpiano 

have followed this thread with interest. tempts me to go and buy an Aurender N200 right now. But a bit out of my budget. @audphile1 or others - any views on the N150? Or any other streamer in the $3k-4k range?

regards,

Manu

@ghdprentice it isn’t the worst but it isn’t the best. It sounds fine on my system. But it’s kind of bunched up and overdone. Dynamic range from quiet to loud is fine. The loud is the overdone part. No fault of N200. 

@aldnorab,

My Benchmark is already at the lowest gain setting.

Thanks for your suggestion though..

@rvpiano there is something else you might try. Your CJ preamp is capable of 20 volts output. The Benchmark amp has three gain settings. Try setting the Benchmark gain to a lower setting. Hopefully it isn't already at the ~2v setting. Krell has been known to run one stage of the amp high into the next stage, giving the dynamics a boost.

Mick designer of Supratek believes line stages must have high output for this very reason. He realizes it won't be optimal for every amp and system, so the linestage as adjustable volume and another control for output voltage. My PS Audio S300 amp has an stage in it and 10db more gain than the Orchard Audio Stereo Ultra DMC V1 amp. I have to change the preamp to match the amp. Your amp is providing the same adjustment. 

Good luck,

aldnorab 

It makes me think of how my professor reacted back in 1988 when I took a music class as an elective. He put on a CD and soon ran over and had to turn it down before it blew the speakers, and then complained how he couldn't tell how loud it was just looking at these digital numbers on the CD player, instead of what he was used to, putting the vinyl on the platter and turning up the analog dial until he heard a certain level of static and pops. "There's not enough noise! it's too quiet!" 

OP,

You bring up an interesting observation. I am now listening to Bruckners 9th. Sounds great. To me the recording is doing what it should, the real symphony has a very wide dynamic range, to me it seems to be capturing that without exaggeration.

I had season tickets to the symphony for over ten years, 7th row center. And I would carefully listen to how the softest of sounds would emerge from the background ambient noise floor. Then the very loudest would nearly overload my ears. I would then go home and adjust my system to mimic it. I believe the noise floor of your listening room could be causing / contributing to the issue. If the noise floor is fairly high, then you are going to have the system cranked up higher in order to hear the very quiet sounds and consequently have it too high during the crescendos.

So, I would think it is the interplay between the ambient background noise floor in your listening area and the volume of the system. I would think the recording is correctly capturing the dynamic range of the symphony. At least on my system it sounds right.

Anyway, something to think about.

No clipping but it’s overdone. Unnecessary for classical. 

@audphile1

I think you’ll find all the Pittsburgh/Honeck recordings are that way.  I don’t sense clipping. Just too loud; and the soft passages, too soft.
I’ll search for other examples.

@rvpiano I’m listening to Bruckner 9th. The loud passages sound like borderline microphone clipping. It’s the recording. Not horrible but this particular recording may potentially be a victim of loudness wars. It’s overdone.
So there’s not much you can do.

The Pittsburgh Symphony recordings with Manfred Honeck are examples of recordings that have too much dynamic range on my set. It may sound real in a concert hall, but in my listening room it’s overpowering. Impressive, yes, but overpowering.

I’ll report back after investigating.

 I’m becoming inured after listening to so much music.

@rvpiano I haven’t experienced what you’re describing with volume variance being this dramatic. I agree with @lalitk as to the reasons why - it is the recording. However there are many other factors that can contribute to this such as DAC, preamp and amp, where the components cannot reproduce the dynamic range of the recording correctly and you end up with higher than necessary volume settings on a quiet passages and get your eardrums pierced when the DR is in the norm for the electronics

May be you can post the album and track you were listening to when this happened?

@lalitk 

Probably the best explanation.

“It’s very disconcerting to be immensely enjoying a track and then be blown up by an ear splitting, unnatural uptake in volume.”
@rvpiano

10 plus years with Aurender, I never experienced this in my system. A streamer job is to faithfully transmit digital bits to your DAC. Could it be the subpar sound quality on some of those tracks that leading to unnatural sound?

A recording with poor or low Dynamic Range would sound hot and unnatural. This is one of reason that I always verify the DR of a digital recording or file before buying.

Your DAC is known to be unforgiving so with N200 high resolution, you’re hearing everything…the good and the bad of original data stream. 

Getting back to the Aurender N200, the only problem I have with it, as mentioned before, is the extreme dynamic range. It’s very disconcerting to be immensely enjoying a track and then be blown up by an ear splitting, unnatural uptake in volume. Lowering the overall volume can make the rest of it unenjoyable because the music becomes almost inaudible. Thank goodness this does not happen with the majority of tracks.

Oh well, i guess one must take the extremely good with the bad. Otherwise, I love it.

You miss my point @ghdprentice Im not comparing a sbc with a high quality over engineered 46 lb streaming device built with precision and fitted with  custom hardware, No expense spared on your streamer.

I'm saying that  these manufacturers who build sbc's in the 3,000 to 4,000 range are using some off the shelf parts made in Vietnam, they may have some custom tuning and support, that's worth something! 
I'm suggesting we could build these same kind of sbc streaming devices ourselves for a lot less money without having  specialized training and install free programming. If we budget more we can up the anti somewhat! 
 

There is a guy on what's best forum who builds his own streamer with no expense spared, I would post a link if I knew how. I suggest everyone finds that thread, it's very interesting.  I'm speaking of high end DIY.  I've been down this diy path for a while now and that my friend makes this audio hobby all the more worthwhile! 

@brunomarcs 

@oddiofyl +1

My Aurrender streamer weighs 46 pounds. I have listened to PCs and streamers at every level all the way to top level ones. Dedicated audio streamers sound better than PCs nearly without exception because the fact it has a processor is a minor part of the component and design effort involved in producing one. 

@brunomarcs your post reminded me of “One Piece at a Time”, a song by Johnny Cash

There is more to Aurender than the fact it is a PC that's hot rodded. It is,  BUT for me it takes the computer out of computer audio.   As I type this with two fingers. I have to say that's worth something to me .....

Ever pick up an Aurender ?   They're heavy.   They reek of quality inside and out compared to any computer.    Support is great.  There's a lot to like.   You can also say that about Innuos. Auralic, Lumin too , they are more than just a PC.  

You are also buying into a slick user interface and real support with most companies that only do dedicated streamers .    

I started streaming with a Vault and I could not consume enough music.   I stream all day at work,  if I work from home it's going on in the background.   It absolutely made sense to me to buy a N200.   I can justify it when. I see buddies spend the same amount on a week doing their favorite thing, skiing,  golfing , whatever. 

You can buy off the shelf components build a single board computer, get an operating system  and save a ton of money, And have a nice server/streamer.  Will it be as good as a 23,000 Aurender or a 35,000 Taiko extreme? I seriously doubt it. It would be a fun project and could save you a lot of money to upgrade another component! 

Just about any streamer under 4,000 is nothing but a SBC  with $500 worth of parts.   Ask to look inside the streamer first before you buy.  Add up  the value of the parts? You'd be shocked. You can buy  some high end parts from Pink Faun and  Jcat and improve your streamer also as funds grow. 

@old_ears 

Your welcome  

Glad to be of service.

On a more serious note. The advantage of I2S via HDMI is that the clock signal and the data are maintained in separate lanes within the same cable, and that I2S speaks more directly to what is native to the DAC (i.e. less conversion required).

By contrast, with AES or digital Coax the clock signal and data are multiplexed, and more translation is required on the DAC end.

That being said, so much is system dependent. What is your DAC best optimized for, and how best does it play with the source. And quality of the cables and system synergy are also very important pieces of the puzzle.

As a side issue, I was unaware of,  but thoroughly explored by Amir at ASR is HDMI (I2s) is a poor audio source connection, cause it just sticks audio in the spare video spaces of the synchronous stream, and is very susceptible to jitter. 

From what I have observed over the years, the key to good sound in one's own system is to do exactly the opposite of what Amir recommends. 

"Reality only exists because we invented Time"...Oppenheimer 

So, thanks 

jazzman7 for sending me down a Tech rabbit hole of "clocks" for 3/4th of my day... lol.  

   Back in the good ole Air Force pre-GPS, analogue days (1970's for me) we always did a Time Hack during any mission brief with multiple airships to insure coordinated actions...easy!  The transition to digital requires a lot more brain power.

   Denafrips has been notorious for not being fully transparent with their signal processing, eg "real NOS"... ref GoldenSound reviews.  I'm totally guessing here but it seems on the Pontus II, their PCM FPGA module acts on all? incoming signals.... that could allow a synchrous slaved DAC clock to accept I2s data which is then stored and buffered, resampled?,... then re-clocked with the DAC clock and sent to analogue out.

   As a side issue, I was unaware of,  but thoroughly explored by Amir at ASR is HDMI (I2s) is a poor audio source connection, cause it just sticks audio in the spare video spaces of the synchronous stream, and is very susceptible to jitter.  He goes on to show async USB can have very well controlled jitter and low noise flour= better. Hmm, maybe, yrmv.  

   I do notice a slight improvement in sound from my OPPO 83 playing a cd/sacd if the "pure audio" button is used...it shuts down most video processing.  Maybe that lowers the noise floor and shifts the OPPO clocks from video sync to the OPPO DAC clocks?  Regardless of which clock is in-play,  I2s does sound better than any USB or SPDIF source...    

   My ears still LOVE the Pontus II (with the 3rd FPGA firmware upgrade) however it works!

OPPO 83, Pontus II, Holo Bliss KTE amp, Susvara HPs   

Thanks @lalitk !

Wishing you the same!

@audphile1 

Good luck with your pursuit. I am about to complete my year long quest on analog setup…should have my TT up n running by end of the month. 

@lalitk yes I agree it’s all in the design and implementation. I’m sure it sounds fabulous! Add to that the awesome Roon UI/UX and it’s undeniably a winner!

Right now I’m focusing on amplification first, DAC second. So who knows what the future holds!

+1, @mclinnguy for “sacrifice that 2-3% just for the better UI”. 

@audphile1 As you know, the devil is in the details a.k.a implementation. I am using a Merging +player, which is a turnkey solution for ROON. The render + core is neatly implemented in the same chassis as my DAC. 

Looking back, I always felt something was missing with ROON vs Aurender. I think the shift in SQ with ROON started in past few months. During my last A/B test, I couldn’t justify keeping N30SA around. The differences were subtle at best. Keep in mind, my Merging stack consist of +power and +clock modules which elevates the DAC + Roon performance to nth degree…a $45K (retail) digital front end :-) 

mclinnguy

340 posts

08-08-2024 at 04:18pm 

 I’ve got two amps battling it out.

ooh, the Coda and the ??? 
 

Boulder 866

 I’ve got two amps battling it out.

ooh, the Coda and the ??? 

No kidding! I just canceled my Roon subscription because the sound quality thru Aurender (and previously thru Bricasti dac network card) was subpar compared to Aurender proprietary processing. But I’m sure if you have a roon centric component, i.e. Grimm MU2, you’ll be fine.

My system is undergoing a few major changes. Sold my Pass Labs separates: X260.8 monos and XP22 preamp. Simplifying my setup and going the integrated route. So in addition to DAC changes I’m also between integrated amps. I’ve got two amps battling it out.

@lalitk 

I was conversing with @arafiq other day about ROON sound quality, looks like it’s gone up few notches.

I concur. In my system to my ears squeeze still has a little more air and separation, and Roon is a wee bit fuller/warmer, but the gap has gotten closer. I have no issues listening to Roon for days at a time and sacrifice that 2-3% just for the better UI. 

@audphile1

I would not recommend Merging DAC with N200 or any streamer with USB/SPDIF output. Merging strengths lies with using its proprietary Ethernet (Ravenna) protocol. In that scenario, you stream from a ROON server directly into Merging DAC via Ethernet. I was conversing with @arafiq other day about ROON sound quality, looks like it’s gone up few notches. As a result, I have embraced ROON and sold my N30SA.

I was looking at Merging dac on TMR but it lacks USB. 
I’ll read up on Master Fidelity. Thanks @lalitk !!!

@audphile1 

I would add Master Fidelity DAC on your trials. 

 

lalitk

5,221 posts

08-08-2024 at 01:17am 

@audphile1 Which DAC did you get?
 

I sold my Bricasti M3. Tried PS Audio DSD MkI, now taking a Chord Hugo TT2 for a test drive. My gut feeling is I am making a full circle back to Bricasti just need to figure out which model. 

Yes, I was a pianist.

I skeptically tried Paul McGowan’s AirLens because of the no hassle return policy. I absolutely love it.  $2000

@rvpiano Great thread!

....btw, I played an LP of a Haydn symphony that I know sounds wonderful.  Compared it to the same performance on Aurender.  Sounded identical.  
Digital performance has evidently been perfected.

Higher priced streamers actually sound better! Who knew! Good to know my confirmation bias works as well as yours 

I am going to go out on a limb and guess: As a "former" musician you played a piano? 

Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.  You could buy an LPS for the Cambridge and compare the Aurender, if you like to experiment. Filter on ethernet like is another improvement. 

Dawned if you do, dawned if you don't. You could buy a LPS for the Cambridge and compare the two, if you like to experiment.  Silver coated copper COAX sounds better than copper for me.  Best of luck and enjoy.

@audphile1 Which DAC did you get?

@aldnorab thanks! Good to be back to streaming music. Not sure yet on my DAC situation but I’m getting there…one DAC at a time 😂

Getting used to the new sound. I’ll keep playing around with CLM vs just turning the screen off (not a fan of displays staying on when I’m listening).

Fortunately I can read the display from where I sit.
After much experimentation I find the sound definitely more open and enjoyable with CLM off ( and using the USB.). 
I don’t know why this is, either.

@audphile1 glad you have the DAC back. @rvpiano I turned CLM on when the N200 first arrived. Before break in was complete, it sounded better with CLM. Not so sure now. Using Ayre Codex DAC with Jenving Supra Ethernet and USB cables. CLM off is brighter/more extended. 

 I was also using CLM was to keep the display screen off. I've read stories of screens burning out. It is too far away to read anyway. There is another setting to deactivate the screen. 

Thanks,

aldnorab 

Yes. I still think it’s the DAC coping with noise. After listening with CLM off I enabled it again. I’ll do some more listening. It’s odd…

@audphile1 

 Strange, isn’t it?

@rvpiano I’m back in business! Got the DAC. 
As to the CLM - I can hear slightly more open sound with the CLM off. This wasn’t the case with my Bricasti where I heard slightly lower noise floor with CLM enabled. 
The current DAC seems to prefer USB signal with CLM off. Go figure …

@old_ears

Whatever the digital connection, synchronous or asynchronous, both the source’s clock and the DAC’s clock will both be in play. There will be a handshake between the two of them. It’s just a matter of which clock will be the controlling or “boss” clock for the interaction.

With synchronous connection, such as via I2S, AES, or Digital Coax, the source clock will be the boss clock.

With asynchronous connection via USB, the DAC clock will be boss.

But either way, both clocks will be in play.

I'm a month late to the party here but to:     

jazzman7 and @monowatcher,

Clock source can depend on the DAC.  Maybe not normal synchronous I2s protocol but according to my Owners Manual for Pointus II, "incoming signals are all stored, buffered, and re-clocked using the DAC internal clock".  

     So without a streamer, using USB from a MB Pro M3, streamed RadioParadise or ripped CDs, sound is very good (would probably be better with a DDC), but noticeably better is I2s directly from an OPPO 83 to the Pontus, whether 16/44.1, 24/196, or SACD.