So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...
Here is a very relevant discussion among physicists about the directionality...the way signal and electrons should flow... based on conductor orientation. Some esoteric, high-end manufacturers say they listen to each conductor to see which way the signal should flow for the best audio quality.
Read this discussion. Will it make you rethink what you’re being told and sold?
I'll make another astonishing statement. All audio frequencies that pass through cables in a home setting as well as studios can be measured. There is no audible differences in the direction of wires unless they have been designed to be.
Everything a human can hear can be measured, no ifs, ands or buts. There is no equivocation, no in principle, it's a simple fact. Plain and simple everything we hear is a physical phenomena transferred via the air around us.
Everything that can be heard, can be measured...except tinnitus...and one's imagination...though tinnitus can interfere with a hearing test.
Not everything that can be measured, can be heard.
When testing loudspeaker components/systems in my shop, particularly high frequency devices such as compression drivers, quite a few customers can't hear a sweep tone beyond 14KHz. I've had lots of older folks...especially men...that can't hear beyond 8Khz...and that's driving with 2.83V into 8 ohms.
And yes...even speakers that measure similarly can sound sound quite a bit different in their presentation of a musical image by how they're designed.
What on earth does this have to do with conductors being directional?...which they are not.
More avoidance, and obfuscation, and changing the subject. How many of you subjectivists hold public office?
Maybe the most naive statement in audio. The objectivists are starting to show how gullible their reasonings are.
There are levels of gullibilty...
--First level is : buying costly audio cables based on "quantum" marketing pretense, is a gullible act....
But even if the "quantum" explanation is a publicity hoax there exist anyway audible difference between cables, the gullibility is born then more from ignorance about more powerful upgrading factor, than from the buying of costly cables, like cheap acoustic law and devices for example....
-- Second level of gullibility is: not trusting our own cumulatively informed listening experience and experiments but relying ONLY or MAINLY to some measured numbers to buy something in audio....
-- Third level of gullibility the deepest of all gullibility is : confusing science with technology and power, and erasing reality to give technology all the place to work.... Shamans are less gullible than transhumanist...
This is "cult" and "religious" attitude without the positive basic truth behind all religion....
The ability to measure only tells a very small amount about the complexity of this process. Mahgister brings up a good point about djones in that he does seem like one of the people in the pod on The Matrix.
Everything a human is capable of hearing can be measured, IN PRINCIPLE ...
Yes, exactly.
... But
all that can be measured NOW does not correspond NECESSARILY with what
we can hear today...Or to what need to be measured to represent the
audible impression...
Yes, exactly. But that is difficult to accept if your religion is measurementalism, hence the periodic kerfuffles here.
Everything a human is capable of hearing can be measured
Here another sophism by our "objectivist" apprentice...
Everything a human is capable of hearing can be measured, IN PRINCIPLE, But all that can be measured NOW does not correspond NECESSARILY with what we can hear today...Or to what need to be measured to represent the audible impression...
Then some perception can escape through the limited way we measured for the time being... And perhaps for a long time indeed because all the body is a multidimensional measuring tool in a way our actual measuring unidimensional tools are not...Ears/brain/body are ONE perceiving apparatus...
But stay calm, A.I. will figure it out with a "universal constructor machine" and you will be invited to upgrade your humanity on another level soon...I dont joke here....It comes ....
Not everything can be counted, counts. Not everything that counts, can be counted.
You can’t judge a speaker by just the freq. response graph. Same for cables.
Yes, if there are some obvious anomaly in the freq. response, then sure you can say it’s a bad speaker or cables, but within some acceptable range, measurements cannot separate the bad from the good.
The problem is 99% of the speakers or cables on the market all fall within the "acceptable range". Only listening can tell.
If you think you can measure a cable freq. distortion and can tell the good and the bad, you may as well spend your time watching paint drying.
If you trust your own brain, in a sited listening test, even though physics tells you that what you perceive you are hearing is impossible, then you a self deluded, whether intelligent or not. If further measurements validates the physics and you still are trusting your perception, then are you an audiophile?
And (not so) cleverly hidden in that statement is a faulty premise. They are saying you can't hear what is being measured but not everything can be, and is being, measured.
We are not at the height of scientific achievements and, as has been already pointed out, they need better tools to measure with.
This is turning out to be a knock-off of Revenge of the Nerds.
One side cant prove its point because there is no consensus on the validity of measurement. In fact there is no consensus on what you should measure.
The other side, which I support, cant prove anything either due to the significance of the individual experience. Difference is that we are not telling you to stop measuring and to migrate to our camp. Fact is we dont care which puts us in a much more enviable position.
Just dont tell us what we hear and attribute it to soft science. Also dont tell us that there is no variability in the ability to hear.
Today it's estimated to be doubling at around 18 months or less.
**************** This is what happens when people take information out of context and equate it with general knowledge. Did you know that this was also said, "According to IBM, the build out of the “internet of things” will lead to the doubling of knowledge every 12 hours."
Knowledge in this sense simply means recorded information. I am increasing it by typing this statement.
I could just as soon argue that the specific knowledge of controlled listening testing of cables using scientific methods is doubling at a rate of once every 10 years. It takes specific actions to occur for specific knowledge to increase.
If you trust your own brain, in a sited listening test, even though physics tells you that what you perceive you are hearing is impossible, then you a self deluded, whether intelligent or not. If further measurements validates the physics and you still are trusting your perception, then are you an audiophile?
You are never trusting your ears, you are trusting your perception. There is a big difference between the two.
If current day scientific knowledge explains everything about sound reproduction, why do the self professed "engineers" have the very worst sounding systems?
By 1945, our knowledge was doubling every 25 years. Today it's estimated to be doubling at around 18 months or less. If there is anything that we can be totally assured of, is that each and every so called scientific law know to man, will be proven false or woefully inadequate some time in the future.
If you trust a measurement over your own ears, you are not terribly smart.
Note. I have not personally heard a difference in direction of a cable, but I have no reason to doubt those who claim they have. Science most certainly does not prove them wrong.
andy2 "I didn’t realize how an objectivist can be fooled so easily."
They are the very easiest to fool because they rely on what a meter or computer tells them ad in fact they are expert at fooling themselves as is evidenced clearly, plainly, and abundantly by they're posts on this site.
Since when does success in any educational system equate to intelligence or overall ability?
Was a time when the U.S. was good at teaching kids how to think. Now instead of facts we have opinion and social indoctrination. Public schools of course, cant speak to private.
Do you two jokers know how many times stuff like that has been linked to in discussions like this, long before you showed up?
Did you expect to see lots of white flags waving? Unconditional surrender? Granted, that math and science is all over my head, and always has been, which is why I rely on my ears, which seemingly, you can't, or are afraid to. The reason doesn't matter: that's your cross to bear.
So you found something from 5 years ago that's basically a diatribe against subjectivists with lots of "science" and "math" behind it. This is not the audio Rosetta Stone. Too bad the guy can't hear all that well or he'd be just as suspect of all he wrote as we are.
What it does answer is the $64K question: Where's Waldo?
It is sad and unfortunate that someone without success in the American educational system feels the need to insult someone not educated in the American educational system, with significantly more accomplishments by making up lies, suppositions and innuendo. It is neither mature, intelligent, not funny to do this and whining to a moderator is not an indication of maturity, but an indication of an inability to behave as an adult in public.
clearthink1,222 posts05-18-2021 12:54pmIt is sad and unfortunate and probably a reflection of the American public educational system that so many new users struggle to communicate their ideas, concepts, and questions in such a way that it is clear, concise, and literate and yet also complies with the very liberal, accepting, and accommodating rules of this forum and that must be the reason, explanation, and justification for the moderator's to have deleted so many of these posts.
It is sad and unfortunate and probably a reflection of the American public educational system that so many new users struggle to communicate their ideas, concepts, and questions in such a way that it is clear, concise, and literate and yet also complies with the very liberal, accepting, and accommodating rules of this forum and that must be the reason, explanation, and justification for the moderator's to have deleted so many of these posts.
Some of you are like tying to herd cats when it comes to discussion.
Eschew, obfuscate, change the subject, fail to pay attention ...
@cleeds ....you should read more better before you reply with snark and sarcasm.
I see you're a new user. Here's a tip: This is a moderated forum. Complaints about users are to be directed to the moderators, not the general forum.
You
better watch it Edgewound. The old users may get upset if you try to
intrude on their exclusivity for snark and insults. And debating? That
is strictly verboten.
Hey sugarbooger - please try to stay on topic. This thread is: "
So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again..."
...and oh....BTW...not one person has come up with evidence that the wire conductors in cables are directional. Why?...because they aren’t.
Actually, that documentation has been provided. Either you haven’t been reading other posts in this thread carefully, or you’re just another "new" user who comes here to debate and insult.
Hey, I think even Ted draws the line at claiming 7 nines silver (or copper). About the only people "claiming" to be drawing wire at that purity is "no-name" vendors out of China, all targeting audio of course. Good luck getting a test report after wire drawing that verifies the purity (or heck, even before).
They are directional just ask Nicola Tesla’s grandson , Ted Denney from Synergistic search , he is always boasting claims on 1 Million volt Tesla coil ,I asked to see proof and white papers to substantiate ,he hung up on me 3 years ago . Even if the wire is drawn in that direction , within 24 hours if reversed it will sound the same. Thst being said purity of Copper silver does count like 7-9s pure OCC copper is drawn in a nitrogen atmosphere when cooling and the pours like bumps in a road instead of 1000s per yard ,to a few hundred it’s a much more linear signal path. as well as type of dielectric ,speed of signal ,and connectors,brass most use ,are vastly inferior vs Silver plater pure Copper connectors 3x lower resistance, as well as 3x better conductor . certain things count, in absolute terms. I have found coating the contacts ,and AC cables with High fidelity audio cables 1260-3D contact enhancer fills the voids or in the pours in the metal with their super conductor formula , for $350 it’s a exceptional product ,and by far the best signal enhancement product I have found ,and I have tried most everything available the last 5 years.
I’ve purchased speakers just by looking at measurements. I’ve also ruled out components by measurement which is where I find them most useful in narrowing down what I want to consider. I relation to this post cables aren't very high on my list of priorities I pretty much stick with pro cables at a reasonable price,
Might wanna recheck what you posted. Several things are glaringly inaccurate.
And...the link I posted to AudioScienceReview.com tested cables from 10Hz to 200KHz to within a 1/2dB variance...with mentions of the threshold of human hearing.
Even $8K he has not justified. A quick search shows $10K for 0.05% accuracy out to 1MHz.
OK, some misinformation here. You claimed your LCR meter can measure up to "0.05%" of accuracy. How does that equate to .004dB at 20MHz? Seems like a slight of hand. Unless you are referring to frequency response of .0004db at 20KHz in which case you sort of changing your story. I don't see how .05% of LCR can equate to .004db at 20MHz. Anyway, if your meter can't measure the difference between silver and copper cables at 20KHz, I am not sure it is worth that much, because anybody can clearly hear the difference between silver and copper cables. Oh wait I know what you'll say. You say these people are all delusional and you're right. I guess it's the case of the whole world is wrong and you're right.
But data will not be on your side here. No two cables will measure to have exactly the same LCR. But oh wait I know what you'll say since you guys are all too predictable. It's all "below human hearing threshold". Like parrots repeating each others. But a lot of these guys at the so called "measurement websites", have no clue about the science of human hearing. If you have no idea about human hearing, how in the world do you know something is below the human hearing threshold.
I have to laugh at some of the attempts of these guys trying to measure cable frequency distortion. They would compare the distortion of two cables, and declare that they are close enough to be all below human hearing threshold. They actually tried to show off that they could measure up all the way to 100KHz. I had to laugh. A flaw measurement doesn't make it right even if you can do it at 100KHz.
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