So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...
Here is a very relevant discussion among physicists about the directionality...the way signal and electrons should flow... based on conductor orientation. Some esoteric, high-end manufacturers say they listen to each conductor to see which way the signal should flow for the best audio quality.
Read this discussion. Will it make you rethink what you’re being told and sold?
All it takes nowadays to be an "expert" is to just go out and buy some test equipment you can afford and viola!, you're an expert. Now you can measure to your hearts content being guided by your expectation bias as the measurements you make bear out what you always believed to be true. It is, after all, your intention.
Gabriel Galen procured lots of patents that Belden Cables holds and with 32 years as one of their chief engineers, can't be summarily dismissed. He's been wholly of the objectivist camp for most of his entire life. He says that it's impossible to accurately measure inductance with any meter priced below $8,000. The Hewlett-Packard LCR machine he measures on costs $80,000. How many objectivists posting here have access to or use this level of test equipment?
When Gabriel set out to design his line of Iconoclast cables (done at Blue Jeans Cables) he discovered that UP- OCC, OFE, ETPC copper all sound different from each other yet it can't be measured. He still builds by measurement (each cable comes with it's own certificate with all the specs), but lets the consumer choose which level of copper to pick for the build. Even this objectivists admits that not everything can be measured.
andy21,300 posts05-17-2021 1:07pmA lot of the so called "objectivists" believe in some of the so called "measurement websites". They measure some frequency responses, some basic distortions and make some wild claims that nobody cares to check.
It's funny how these "objectivists" are taken for a ride and they just blindly believe without even questioning about the validity of these so called "measurements". How funny as they are being duped.
On my third order of popcorn, movie style of course. The subjectivists are pulling out their heavy hitting, well frankly I am not sure what to call this. Measurements are repeatable. The test methodologies can be documents so that others can recreate the experiment. Come on now, you are not even trying with this post.
nonoise7,051 posts05-17-2021 1:56pmAll it takes nowadays to be an "expert" is to just go out and buy some test equipment you can afford and viola!, you're an expert. Now you can measure to your hearts content being guided by your expectation bias as the measurements you make bear out what you always believed to be true. It is, after all, your intention.
Gabriel Galen procured lots of patents that Belden Cables holds and with 32 years as one of their chief engineers, can't be summarily dismissed. He's been wholly of the objectivist camp for most of his entire life. He says that it's impossible to accurately measure inductance with any meter priced below $8,000. The Hewlett-Packard LCR machine he measures on costs $80,000. How many objectivists posting here have access to or use this level of test equipment?
Did Galen Gareis qualify what he meant by accurate? $500 may be enough for many things. Test equipment that is $8,000 from a Western supplier may be $2,000 from an Asian supplier. Then there is EBAY. On ASR I am surprised by how sophisticated many people's home test benches are. Far better than almost all cable vendors. That is marketing speak by Galen. It impresses his target audience, and is obviously successful
Can you please explain Galen's expertise on audio or audio equipment. I do not think he has any other than being a hobbyist, and he does not even have relevant design experience. All we are going on is his word it sounds better. That is not very objective at all. Seems all you need to be an expert is to claim you can hear things. Galen does have a lot in common with a lot of people posting here.
So now you’re back pedaling on what constitutes the cost of the cheaper test equipment? That maybe they’re all created equal and is just the price exchange of different countries. Right......
As for ASR, it’s been ridiculed for how they measure and the costs of it’s test equipment by other test measuring sites. Surely you’ve know that for awhile. As for Gabriel Galen’s expertise, you’ve got so much to learn. Just a hobbyist? Try google.
Enjoy your popcorn from the cheap seats. The view from there is very limited but you can still have fun.
All it takes nowadays to be an "expert" is to just go out and buy some test equipment you can afford and viola!, you're an expert. Now you can measure to your hearts content being guided by your expectation bias as the measurements you make bear out what you always believed to be true. It is, after all, your intention.
Gabriel Galen procured lots of patents that Belden Cables holds and with 32 years as one of their chief engineers, can't be summarily dismissed. He's been wholly of the objectivist camp for most of his entire life. He says that it's impossible to accurately measure inductance with any meter priced below $8,000. The Hewlett-Packard LCR machine he measures on costs $80,000. How many objectivists posting here have access to or use this level of test equipment?
When Gabriel set out to design his line of Iconoclast cables (done at Blue Jeans Cables) he discovered that UP- OCC, OFE, ETPC copper all sound different from each other yet it can't be measured. He still builds by measurement (each cable comes with it's own certificate with all the specs), but lets the consumer choose which level of copper to pick for the build. Even this objectivists admits that not everything can be measured.
nonoise7,052 posts05-17-2021 2:49pmSo now you're back pedaling on what constitutes the cost of the cheaper test equipment? That maybe they're all created equal and is just price exchange of different countries. Right......
As for ASR, it's been ridiculed for how they measure and costs of it's test equipment by other test measuring sites. Surely you've know that for awhile. As for Gabriel Galen's expertise, you've got so much to learn. Just a hobbyist? Try google.
The Klippel speaker measuring equipment they use is absolutely state of the art. The headphone testing system is similarly very high end. The Audio Precision gear is not the very latest and greatest, but it still reveals issues in what should be state of the art products.
I would have to pedal forward to back peddle. Galen made an unqualified off the cuff comment. Their $80K unit was at Belden, and would be for very high frequency cables. He makes no justification for that cost or precision requirement for audio. Even $8K he has not justified. A quick search shows $10K for 0.05% accuracy out to 1MHz. No need for that level of accuracy. At audio frequencies and well beyond, a signal generator, scope, and precision resistor and I can measure within a % or 2. I can even get pretty close on characteristic impedance. That's $1-2K. That is sufficiency accuracy for a cable in audio.
It has not been called HP for 22 years. One of the best HP LCR meter for 20Hz - 300Khz is <$5,000 now. Times have changed. I can find equivalent or better specs from a tier 2 for 1/2 that.
You made a comment about people claiming to be experts, but you are quoting someone without the expertise to know if what they said is accurate or relevant.
It's interesting that you now admit cable measurements are actually useful, and Blue Jeans Cable is very forthcoming about what they do. here's a bit of very useful info from their website. I have never bought from nor have a relationship with this company, but I do appreciate the honesty put forth.
BTW...HP test equipment is now Agilent...has been for years. Time to get yerself educated. The problem with self-education is the glaring reality that you have not been educated in the first place.
For crying out loud, what is wrong with you people? I’ve never said, implied or proffered anything saying measurements don’t matter. Just that they can’t measure everything.
You guys are bending over backwards to justify your inability to hear and having to rely on test measurements to make yourself feel better. If you can’t hear it, fine. No one is going to fault you for that. If you can’t afford it and begrudge others who can, then that’s a different kettle of fish, isn’t it?
Practically every, single argument lets slip the cost factor, even when it’s not brought up by those who are willing to pay just a little more for something that sounds better. Get over it.
As for the better accuracy of the more expensive test equipment and the negating of it since it’s not necessary for your purposes, you’re gonna have to do better than that. All sugabooger is doing is some really poor rationalizing, spilling his popcorn.
Even John Atkinson mentioned the limits of some modern day test equipment that couldn’t hold a candle to the ones he learned with in the old days. Those scopes showed more, varying info than the newer ones which showed nothing amiss.
As for HP now having a different owner and a new name and calling me out on it is juvenile, at best, and shows just how desperate you are to be right. The machine he uses still is called HP. You're bordering on moronic.
In my day job, we wouldn’t trust any equipment. We actually have to characterize equipment to make sure they measure what they advertise.
Apparently, some here just google up some equipment and think they are good enough.
$10K for 0.05% accuracy out to 1MHz
I suppose some people have the data to back up 0.05% is good enough to measure human hearing. I don’t, but if you post something, you need to back up your claims.
That is sufficiency accuracy for a cable in audio.
Again, a statement without evidence or proof.
Interesting how some can so readily believe in what they search on google. :-)
I never said i couldn't hear the differences in good vs. not so good cables. Being a guitar player for 47+ years, and a gigging musician, I can definitely hear and FEEL the difference in cables. Especially the difference of long cable runs through passive vs. active pickups.
My post several hours ago about directionality in conductors was removed because I pointed out that a thread from 2010 avoided the issue, and pretty much proved my point with this thread. Don't tell me that my comments were abusive, because the same type of abusive comments have not been removed from other's posts.
The point is the sheer absurd expense of the high end cables and the claims they make with zero technical justification, unlike those made by Blue Jeans Cable.
I trust your "moronic" comment will be removed, because it's abusive. But....with the fratboy mentality of rules enforcement around here, I highly doubt it.
I see that Danad, ATDavid, Audio2design, Dletch2, and the sadly short-lived Hotdogbob (I am sure I am missing more) has crafted another profile within the last week. He keeps getting the boot and keeps coming back. It is truly a sad existence if all you have in life to keep busy is create multiple screen names on an audio hobbyist site, and relentlessly argue about stuff that doesn't really matter.
Time to get yerself educated. The problem with self-education is the glaring reality that you have not been educated in the first place.
You do know that a 1 1/2 yr old child is self aware? Right?
I trust your "moronic" comment will be removed, because it's abusive. But....with the fratboy mentality of rules enforcement around here, I highly doubt it
I trust
your "moronic" comment will be removed, because it's abusive.
But....with the fratboy mentality of rules enforcement around here, I
highly doubt it
The moderators do a pretty good job here. If you disagree, I suggest you direct your concerns to them for resolution. Or, are you a "new" user who's been previously suspended from the site multiple times?
edgewound is a musician. Explains a ton based on my experience with musicians especially those who play through amplification.
To some a little knowledge is a wonderful thing and to others a curse. Those who dont know what they dont know are a bane.
So typical to call for the removal of comments you dont like, especially when these offensive comments are no worse that others that jumped from your keyboard moments earlier.
Stay as long as you like edgewound, but perhaps you should quit while you are behind.
andy21,301 posts05-17-2021 4:51pmIn my day job, we wouldn’t trust any equipment. We actually have to characterize equipment to make sure they measure what they advertise.
Apparently, some here just google up some equipment and think they are good enough.
$10K for 0.05% accuracy out to 1MHz
I suppose some people have the data to back up 0.05% is good enough to measure human hearing. I don’t, but if you post something, you need to back up your claims.
That is sufficiency accuracy for a cable in audio.
Again, a statement without evidence or proof.
Interesting how some can so readily believe in what they search on google. :-)
************************************************************** If you are unfamiliar with a topic, i.e. electronics manufacturing, then it is best to not comment. Nothing in audio is controlled to 0.05%. Not at the time of manufacturing, not over time, and not over temperature. With a cable, the impact would be volume (resistance, 0.05% is inaudible), or a filter frequency (0.05% is inaudible).
So yes, 0.05% is more than good enough for human hearing, or any practical manufacturing process.
As they say, the criminal tends to come back at the scene of the crime. Or something like that. And yes, the pattern is unmistakable, different name or not. Sick dude
csmgolf664 posts05-17-2021 5:09pmI see that Danad, ATDavid, Audio2design, Dletch2, and the sadly short-lived Hotdogbob (I am sure I am missing more) has crafted another profile within the last week. He keeps getting the boot and keeps coming back. It is truly a sad existence if all you have in life to keep busy is create multiple screen names on an audio hobbyist site, and relentlessly argue about stuff that doesn't really matter.
If you don't know the relevance of 0.05% measurement accuracy to the measurement (or design) of audio equipment, you could just say so instead of trying to make it look like the fault of someone else. A high school drop out would probably admit he or she does not know.
That is 0.004db as a level difference. At 20KHz, it is a frequency shift in a filter of 10Hz. You could just say I don't understand the relevance of 0.05% measurement error.
I trust your "moronic" comment will be removed, because it's abusive. But....with the fratboy mentality of rules enforcement around here, I highly doubt it
The moderators do a pretty good job here. If you disagree, I suggest you direct your concerns to them for resolution. Or, are you a "new" user who's been previously suspended from the site multiple times?
A detective, you're not. I've only one registration. Never been banned to come back as someone/something else. Maybe I should be flattered?
audition__audio831 posts05-17-2021 3:04pmedgewound is a musician. Explains a ton based on my experience with musicians especially those who play through amplification.
To some a little knowledge is a wonderful thing and to others a curse. Those who dont know what they dont know are a bane.
So typical to call for the removal of comments you dont like, especially when these offensive comments are no worse that others that jumped from your keyboard moments earlier.
Stay as long as you like edgewound, but perhaps you should quit while you are behind.
I've actually been in the audio business full time for the last 33 years and counting.
It's amazing the things one can learn about audio hardware/software in the professional and consumer markets after 4 decades with hands-on experience and how transfers through being a musician and attending both professional and consumer trade shows. CES, NAMM, AES. The consumer market has no standards body to answer to when it comes to outrageous claims. AES has pretty stringent standards when it comes to specs publishing. CES not so much.
...and oh....BTW...not one person has come up with evidence that the wire conductors in cables are directional.
Why?...because they aren't.
And if you simply cannot understand the simple concept without attempting to get into molecular physics at audio frequencies, you're hopelessly in search of something that isn't there. So much has been said that has been deleted because of contradictory statements....while trying to change the subject away from the original post.
Even $8K he has not justified. A quick search shows $10K for 0.05% accuracy out to 1MHz.
OK, some misinformation here. You claimed your LCR meter can measure up to "0.05%" of accuracy. How does that equate to .004dB at 20MHz? Seems like a slight of hand. Unless you are referring to frequency response of .0004db at 20KHz in which case you sort of changing your story. I don't see how .05% of LCR can equate to .004db at 20MHz. Anyway, if your meter can't measure the difference between silver and copper cables at 20KHz, I am not sure it is worth that much, because anybody can clearly hear the difference between silver and copper cables. Oh wait I know what you'll say. You say these people are all delusional and you're right. I guess it's the case of the whole world is wrong and you're right.
But data will not be on your side here. No two cables will measure to have exactly the same LCR. But oh wait I know what you'll say since you guys are all too predictable. It's all "below human hearing threshold". Like parrots repeating each others. But a lot of these guys at the so called "measurement websites", have no clue about the science of human hearing. If you have no idea about human hearing, how in the world do you know something is below the human hearing threshold.
I have to laugh at some of the attempts of these guys trying to measure cable frequency distortion. They would compare the distortion of two cables, and declare that they are close enough to be all below human hearing threshold. They actually tried to show off that they could measure up all the way to 100KHz. I had to laugh. A flaw measurement doesn't make it right even if you can do it at 100KHz.
Might wanna recheck what you posted. Several things are glaringly inaccurate.
And...the link I posted to AudioScienceReview.com tested cables from 10Hz to 200KHz to within a 1/2dB variance...with mentions of the threshold of human hearing.
I’ve purchased speakers just by looking at measurements. I’ve also ruled out components by measurement which is where I find them most useful in narrowing down what I want to consider. I relation to this post cables aren't very high on my list of priorities I pretty much stick with pro cables at a reasonable price,
They are directional just ask Nicola Tesla’s grandson , Ted Denney from Synergistic search , he is always boasting claims on 1 Million volt Tesla coil ,I asked to see proof and white papers to substantiate ,he hung up on me 3 years ago . Even if the wire is drawn in that direction , within 24 hours if reversed it will sound the same. Thst being said purity of Copper silver does count like 7-9s pure OCC copper is drawn in a nitrogen atmosphere when cooling and the pours like bumps in a road instead of 1000s per yard ,to a few hundred it’s a much more linear signal path. as well as type of dielectric ,speed of signal ,and connectors,brass most use ,are vastly inferior vs Silver plater pure Copper connectors 3x lower resistance, as well as 3x better conductor . certain things count, in absolute terms. I have found coating the contacts ,and AC cables with High fidelity audio cables 1260-3D contact enhancer fills the voids or in the pours in the metal with their super conductor formula , for $350 it’s a exceptional product ,and by far the best signal enhancement product I have found ,and I have tried most everything available the last 5 years.
Hey, I think even Ted draws the line at claiming 7 nines silver (or copper). About the only people "claiming" to be drawing wire at that purity is "no-name" vendors out of China, all targeting audio of course. Good luck getting a test report after wire drawing that verifies the purity (or heck, even before).
...and oh....BTW...not one person has come up with evidence that the wire conductors in cables are directional. Why?...because they aren’t.
Actually, that documentation has been provided. Either you haven’t been reading other posts in this thread carefully, or you’re just another "new" user who comes here to debate and insult.
You
better watch it Edgewound. The old users may get upset if you try to
intrude on their exclusivity for snark and insults. And debating? That
is strictly verboten.
Hey sugarbooger - please try to stay on topic. This thread is: "
So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again..."
Some of you are like tying to herd cats when it comes to discussion.
Eschew, obfuscate, change the subject, fail to pay attention ...
@cleeds ....you should read more better before you reply with snark and sarcasm.
I see you're a new user. Here's a tip: This is a moderated forum. Complaints about users are to be directed to the moderators, not the general forum.
It is sad and unfortunate and probably a reflection of the American public educational system that so many new users struggle to communicate their ideas, concepts, and questions in such a way that it is clear, concise, and literate and yet also complies with the very liberal, accepting, and accommodating rules of this forum and that must be the reason, explanation, and justification for the moderator's to have deleted so many of these posts.
clearthink1,222 posts05-18-2021 12:54pmIt is sad and unfortunate and probably a reflection of the American public educational system that so many new users struggle to communicate their ideas, concepts, and questions in such a way that it is clear, concise, and literate and yet also complies with the very liberal, accepting, and accommodating rules of this forum and that must be the reason, explanation, and justification for the moderator's to have deleted so many of these posts.
It is sad and unfortunate that someone without success in the American educational system feels the need to insult someone not educated in the American educational system, with significantly more accomplishments by making up lies, suppositions and innuendo. It is neither mature, intelligent, not funny to do this and whining to a moderator is not an indication of maturity, but an indication of an inability to behave as an adult in public.
So you found something from 5 years ago that's basically a diatribe against subjectivists with lots of "science" and "math" behind it. This is not the audio Rosetta Stone. Too bad the guy can't hear all that well or he'd be just as suspect of all he wrote as we are.
What it does answer is the $64K question: Where's Waldo?
Do you two jokers know how many times stuff like that has been linked to in discussions like this, long before you showed up?
Did you expect to see lots of white flags waving? Unconditional surrender? Granted, that math and science is all over my head, and always has been, which is why I rely on my ears, which seemingly, you can't, or are afraid to. The reason doesn't matter: that's your cross to bear.
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