So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...
Here is a very relevant discussion among physicists about the directionality...the way signal and electrons should flow... based on conductor orientation. Some esoteric, high-end manufacturers say they listen to each conductor to see which way the signal should flow for the best audio quality.
Read this discussion. Will it make you rethink what you’re being told and sold?
"By participating in a discussion regarding the existence of God you have proved you believe God".
“The law of gravity and gravity itself did not exist before Isaac Newton." ...and what that means is that that law of gravity exists nowhere except in people's heads! It 's a ghost!" Mind has no matter or energy but they can't escape its predominance over everything they do. Logic exists in the mind. numbers exist only in the mind. I don't get upset when scientists say that ghosts exist in the mind. it's that only that gets me. science is only in your mind too, it's just that that doesn't make it bad. or ghosts either." Laws of nature are human inventions, like ghosts. Law of logic, of mathematics are also human inventions, like ghosts." ...we see what we see because these ghosts show it to us, ghosts of Moses and Christ and the Buddha, and Plato, and Descartes, and Rousseau and Jefferson and Lincoln, on and on and on. Isaac Newton is a very good ghost. One of the best. Your common sense is nothing more than the voices of thousands and thousands of these ghosts from the past.” ― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values
The original theory of MOND by Milgrom was developed in 1983 as an alternative to "dark matter". Departures from Newton's law of gravitation are governed by an acceleration scale, not a distance scale. MOND successfully explains the Tully-Fisher observation that the luminosity of a galaxy should scale as the fourth power of the rotation speed. It also explains why the rotation discrepancy in dwarf galaxies is particularly large.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternatives_to_general_relativity#Relativistic_MOND
Damn! Now I don't even know if I should believe in God or these so called scientists :-)
This reminds me of the philosophical conversation the theologian had with an atheist. "By participating in a discussion regarding the existence of God you have proved you believe God".
I have wires that are directional - balanced cables and internal biwire speaker cables.
I don't care who is right...if I buy a freakin cable of any kind, and it has directional arrows, then that shall be the way it is installed. I also follow what chord recommends, and connect wires with the print reading in the direction of the signal, it makes me feel better. 😬
Who among us, upon finding an arrow on a cable, will not abide by that directional instruction, or ignoring it, will be bothered by it, regardless of what rational thought says?
Legit curious question: What more than 1's and 0's constitutes digital signal?
1's and 0's are the abstraction. There is really no 1 and 0 in real world data. It's just the voltage level. We assign a high voltage as 1, and low voltage as 0, but that voltage level can be anything. You can also call high voltage as 0 and vice versa if you want. There are rise time fall time. There are jitter. There are overshoot, undershoot. It's all analog.
What most don't see is how these can affect the signal jitter. Why does jitter matter in audio? Because the DAC needs a clock and if the clock is affected by jitter, the audio coming out will be affected too.
Most RF engineers probably don't get it. I know because I get asked this same question by a lot of so called "electrical engineer", and I have to explain this to them. They would soon understand.
It’s just not true...especially for AC. The AC current travels in both directions. Here’s an easy explanation.
Wrong. AC current travels in one direction. Look up Poynting vector. We’ve been through this. You’re a bit late to the party.
The link you provided is like high-school level for those who can’t get past first year college.
You’re also convoluting the discussion of which direction the current should flow through the conductor...which is also not true. It’s the purity that matters more than the direction it was drawn...which is zero.
Reverse the leads at the speaker and the drivers change direction based on the polarity of the charged magnets. The AC pulses back and forth.
Those guys in the link above from the OP, when they start talking about digital signal as 0's and 1's, well they pretty lost all their credibility. Only a layman would think digital as 0 and 1.
I've never bought into the directionality myth. Blind tests over the years indicate I cant tell the difference when the directions are reversed, no matter where the arrow is. I align the arrows just to assuage my OCD, but that's all.
The same with most cable quality. My 15' and 20' lengths of Canare 12 gauge speaker cable is indistinguishable from the 8 foot runs of Acoustic Zen Holograms I had before.
I especially found interesting in the link to the Physics Forum the idea that this myth is even more fantastic when it comes to digital signals.
speakermaster382 posts05-13-2021 4:58pmThe reason that some manufacturers put the arrow on the wire is because they made the wire and know which way the copper was drawn through the dies when it was manufactured the other manufacturers listen for best sound but i can understand how the sound would be better in the direction the copper was drawn out it is the best explanation i have ever heard about this.
It's just not true...especially for AC. The AC current travels in both directions. Here's an easy explanation. Next time you have a burning question for a high-end cable manufacturer, present them with this:
andy21,286 posts05-13-2021 2:52pmKind of funny the RF folks now are criticizing about cable directional. RF folks are known for their measurements so they have to live and die by it. If you insist on measurement, you got to put up or shut up.
In RF, there is something called "insertion loss" or RF people would call it "SD21" or "SD12". SD21 is the insertion loss in one direction whereas SD12 is insertion loss in the other direction. And these are never the same especially in RF. You measure insertion loss in one direction, then the other direction, and the results are close but never the same.
Also if RF folks also are making fun of cable lifters, remember that RF cables are very sensitive to the cable bending. If you bend the cable just slightly, your SD21 will change. Expensive RF cables are less sensitive but they all are.
You see, there a lot of these voodoo scientists ... errr... I meant "objectivist". They keep pounding on the word "measurements", but they themselves can't withstand close scrutiny. A lot of these people are using the word "measurement" as a mean to an agenda but a lot of them don't know what they are talking about.
RF and audio spectrums are completely different. CAT cables operate in megahertz with the twisted pairs needing to be in sweeping bends so as not to cause interference/crosstalk with the delivery of digital data packets. Completely different signal delivery system than analog AC current signal.
The reason that some manufacturers put the arrow on the wire is because they made the wire and know which way the copper was drawn through the dies when it was manufactured the other manufacturers listen for best sound but i can understand how the sound would be better in the direction the copper was drawn out it is the best explanation i have ever heard about this.
It is just not worth it (Read cost effective) to spend considerable time and expense on cable directional issues for audio signals. For power transmission or distribution circuits from power systems, then cable science makes sense to pursue. in order to keep high voltage transmission line losses low.
also, for audio or power cord cables, it comes down to: 1. Impedance 2. Capacitance (included in impedance) loading 3. inductance loading (included in impedance) 4. Resistance (included in impedance) 5. Skin effect (maybe) 6. voltage capability 7. Current capability 8. Costs to design/construct
Unless there is serious scientific reason why, (or serious money involved),Engineers will not be concerned with low level cable signal direction.
In all seriousness, to the OP: who cares. Step One: cables arrive
Step two: if they have arrows, place them according to arrows
Step three: done
Why is this so tough??
Unless of course you buy stupid shit Christmas “wire” from Home Depot, and are wondering why they don’t have any arrows on them. Which begs the question: why do YOU even have to worry about the directionally of the cable?
Ah, with a little bit of sleuthing, I found the article from the failed link where one of the engineers for Pink Floyd talks of how they built the recording studio on the Astoria. About 2/3 of the way down he goes into detail on how cables sound different one way over the other and that one is a better sounding way: https://www.davidgilmour.com/press/2005/march/TapeOp_March05.pdf
But hey, he's only a recording engineer working with Pink Floyd so what do they know?
Let's say you have a track from point A - to - B. This track is not symmetric but have obstacles, uphill, down hill but everything is non-uniform. May have more uphill or downhill depends on direction.
Case 1: You run from A to B then back to A. Case 2: You run from B to A then back to B.
Will you expend the same amount of energy in both cases?
😀😂😂. Let’s just say this is a failed attempt to analogy
djones513,973 posts05-13-2021 3:30pmWhy is it the direction an AC wire is installed only seems to affect audio systems? You never see people complaining about their refrigerator boiling eggs or stove freezing pizza with backwards wires.
There used to be a working link I've used in past discussions on cable directionality and it's not coming up anymore. (http://www.tubemastering.com/philtaylor.pdf )It had to do with Pink Floyd and the building of a studio on the Astoria (David Gilmore's house boat), a boat they used to record on. In between sessions, they swapped cable directions and easily heard the differences, preferring one way over the other.
The best I can do right now was to find an article that doesn't go into it in such depth but speaks to the differences in cabling that can be heard. https://www.soundonsound.com/people/recording-david-gilmours-island Scroll down to the "Grounding on Water" section in grey.
There's also this from Tony Farinella who makes the cables that David Gilmore uses: http://sparebricks.fika.org/sbzine28/ggg.html There is a section where he discusses cable directionality.
Let's see... another non working link to TapeOp about the house boat and cable directionality....can't find anything else for the moment.
Kind of funny the RF folks now are criticizing about cable directional. RF folks are known for their measurements so they have to live and die by it. If you insist on measurement, you got to put up or shut up.
In RF, there is something called "insertion loss" or RF people would call it "SD21" or "SD12". SD21 is the insertion loss in one direction whereas SD12 is insertion loss in the other direction. And these are never the same especially in RF. You measure insertion loss in one direction, then the other direction, and the results are close but never the same.
Also if RF folks also are making fun of cable lifters, remember that RF cables are very sensitive to the cable bending. If you bend the cable just slightly, your SD21 will change. Expensive RF cables are less sensitive but they all are.
You see, there a lot of these voodoo scientists ... errr... I meant "objectivist". They keep pounding on the word "measurements", but they themselves can't withstand close scrutiny. A lot of these people are using the word "measurement" as a mean to an agenda but a lot of them don't know what they are talking about.
Science does not exist to prove or disprove human experience. Science is nothing more than a method that is has been proven to be the most reliable one for eventually figuring out how the world works.
Please do try and keep these different ideas separate and clear in your mind. If you can just manage to do this one thing it will be amazing how much more clear your understanding of so many things will become over time. Not now, maybe not tomorrow, but gradually over time.
yogiboy3,973 posts05-13-2021 1:09pmFrom Chord! Almost all speaker cables, in fact almost all audio cables, be they for digital or analogue are, in our experience, directional in that the sound will be better with the cable connected in a specific direction. Chord speaker cables should be connected so that the print on the cable reads in the direction of the signal.
Especially if the cable is outfitted with male and female connectors at each end. Low impedance mic cables and balanced interconnects come to mind...because that is required to actually connect the cables. For unbalanced coaxial style cables grounded at each end, with the same type of connector at each end, the direction does not matter. Speaker cables terminated with different connectors at each end are obviously directional as to how it's connected. Bare wire...does not matter.
From Chord! Almost all speaker cables, in fact almost all audio cables, be they for digital or analogue are, in our experience, directional in that the sound will be better with the cable connected in a specific direction. Chord speaker cables should be connected so that the print on the cable reads in the direction of the signal.
Why is it the direction an AC wire is installed only seems to affect audio systems? You never see people complaining about their refrigerator boiling eggs or stove freezing pizza with backwards wires.
If someone does not hear the direction of the wires, then either he is deaf or the system has a very low resolution.
The fact that engineers and scientists do not know how to measure it is the problem of imperfect models and measuring instruments. Any scientific or even more so engineering model is not ultimately true.
Engineering wise, conductor signal direction makes no sense, especially since we are talking about AC signals that change directions anyway.
However, before anyone says no. (Which I will quickly as an Electronics/Electrical Engineer), the real test is to hook it up to a signal analyzer, and see if there is a difference. Then, play a song with the cable in question. Then reverse the cable and place the same song changing absolutely nothing else.
Blind is better. If the people in the room and yourself for that matter hear differences, well, there you are.
For Engineers this is a non issue as it doesn't impact what they are designing and using cables for in the first place. For Audiophiles on the other hand, it is more perceived.
Science is not about perception, it is about repeatable environment and test, to repeat something under the same situation/circumstances/environment. It is isn't repeatable, it isn't science. it's magic.
millercarbon9,143 posts05-13-2021 10:33amLet us just say for the sake of argument that you take a look down the street and the car parked a mile away seems to be moving around. Some people look and say no it is so far away I can hardly even tell it is a car. Others look and say not only is it moving around but it is changing shape as I look at it.
You cannot settle this argument so you enlist a physicist. The physicist explains in no uncertain terms the bonds in metal make it far too rigid to possibly be changing shape. The mass of the car and gravity mean it cannot ever just rise and float above the road. It is impossible. You are imagining. It is all in your head. Someone is selling you snake oil.
Until a physicist specializing in atmospheric research comes along and says well look, this is all perfectly understandable. The sun heats the road, the warm air rises in currents. Warm air is less dense and so light passing through it is refracted, bent. This perfectly explains what you are seeing.
This has zero to do with electric current at audio frequencies in a wire. But...it’s typical of overhyped, theoretical fantasies of mind theater interconnects. How does it look to a blind person?
Your analogy is completely irrelevant. Not surprising...at all.
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