So I bought the Willsenton R-800i

@chmaiwald 

Thanks  for taking the time to provide an update. I’m happy that this amplifier purchase has worked out so well for you. With the 805/300b combo circuit, this will provide beautiful music reproduction for many years of enjoyment.

Charles

A quick update:

After testing quite a few 12AX7s I must say: Believe the hype. The Telefunken (ECC83) is the best. Not by far, but overall it does its job extremely well. Second would be the Mullard (current production).

At the moment I´m running old soviet 6SN7 NOSs and really, between them and Sylvania GTB NOSs I´d find it hard to decide. I bought them here for a mere 15€ and I´d be happy to hear what others think about them. I didn´t try too many others, just the stock ones and RCA GTA NOSs, which both just didn´t compare. I heard good things about the bass performance of the PSVane Treasure MkII, if I ever spot a bargain I may be tempted to try these.

5U4G – Svetlana.

805 & 300B – I´m saving for replacments. I didn´t find much info about different 805s so I may go for PSVane Acmes. As for 300Bs the one thing most people seem to agree on is that between cheaper/mid-priced and the more costly tubes it makes most sense to just go for the expensive ones. No secrets here it seems. So the question is which exact model and I´m still not sure. WE (new production), Takatsuki or Elrog? Well, well... I´m favouring the Elrog, maybe just because I tend to support the underdogs. And after some production hiccups some years ago the current tubes seem to be reliable and they give a 1 year warranty too. (When it comes to this the 5 year warranty given by WE is a very good argument as well.) Did anyone have a chance to compare Elrogs with other 300Bs?

Aside from all the tube talk I must say that I´m still very happy with the amp and the prospect of improving the sound even further is thrilling to say the least. I listend to records by Matthew Halsall and 700 bliss today and was very pleased with how well they both sounded even though they are sonically pretty different. Overall I still could do with a wee bit less treble but that´s nitpicking, really.

Assuming that amp up to it, top tier tubes will be impressive upgrade from present tubes. Crazy, but I could easily spend $2500 up on those three tube sets alone, even more crazy, it would be worth it.

Agree 100%. If it is a good quality SET build, then the upper tier DHT tubes will exploit its full sonic potential.

Charles

In order of importance to sound quality I'd rate 805 first, rectifier, than 300B. The Cossor is produced by Psvane, wouldn't expect much change from stock Psvane, Mullard NOS rectifier is one nice tube, use them in my custom 300B's, much greater reliability and longevity compared to modern, 300B, any number of top tier would be nice.

Assuming that amp up to it, top tier tubes will be impressive upgrade from present tubes. Crazy, but I could easily spend $2500 up on those three tube sets alone, even more crazy, it would be worth it.

I don't know what tubes cost back in day, assume pennies on the dollar, even accounting for inflation. NOS always going up, increasingly limited supply, likely greater demand over time, add inflation, prices up to be expected.

A short update here:

I have tested a few tubes and maybe you´d like to hear.

805 – stock replaced for Cossor
Judging from how they look the stock ones seem to be rebranded PSVane Hifi 805s. After listening to the Cossors for a few weeks I now put the stock tubes back in and I´m surprised that they also sound very good. Maybe a bit too boomy on the low end and with less stage, but tbh I still have to break them in properly, so for now they stay in.

6SN7 – stock replaced for Sylvania GTBs, waiting for Fonon NOS
One of the Fonons was broken. So I´m using the Sylvanias atm. Ordered some RCA NOS and of course I´m tempted to buy and test others but I´m holding back for now. It´s just costly and the Sylvanias are doing a great job. There´s the 300Bs and, probably, the 805s to be taken care of so I´m not trying to get carried away here.

12AX7 – stock replaced with current Mullard model, waiting for West German ones from AEG and Telefunken, East German ones from RSD and Funkwerk Erfurt (both used) and also Sylvania JAN 5751 NOS (a military model)
Still waiting for the west german ones. The stock one was JJ and just like the Sylvania and to a lesser extend the RSD it did a nice job. But the Mullard stands out for me in overall performance: Detailed highs and lows, lovely stage and nicely pronounced mids. Would like to hear NOS Mullards without having to buy them.

5U4G – stock, waiting for RCA NOS black plate and Svetlana NOS „Coke Bottle“
Currently the Svetlana is in and the overall sound seems a bit more transparent. But really, just a bit. Maybe I´m entering the world of audio voodoo because I want to hear a difference. But they also look better. Having read that 5U4Gs shouldn´t have much of an effect on the sound (if at all) I feel no need to look any further here. What a relief!

A few things I learned in the last weeks:

So many people write about audio with a presumed authority but considering their experience, their ears and taste on one side and ones own system, room, taste, ears and financial means on the other there is only so much you can take from it. You have to go your own way. And it´s ok not to end up with a system filled with Telefunkens with diamond bases, other NOS-tubes from that one specific year and whatnot. (By saying this I´m also reminding myself of it.) It´s also the structure of forums like this with people exchanging views about what´s better or not that implies you always have to hunt for the best.

Also, having a system now with much better resolution I also get to hear some mistakes or imperfections that were not so prominent before. Take „Roads“ by Portishead for example, a devastatingly beautiful song. It starts with a great organ intro that immediately pulls you in (down, some would say). Unlike before I now hear that on CD there´s some overdrive on the right chanel there. A few times the sound distorts. It´s bugging me like hell! I checked on spotify – the same. So maybe it´s everywhere and no mastering error. Still, it´s the first time I feel the strong bite of the sudiophile bug that wants to divert my attention from the song (which is still amazing) to the recording. Luckily he doesnt bite that often and I can still focus more on the overall improvement of the playback and a deeper connection to the music I listen to.

Lastly, for now, a question:
How much were tubes back in the day? They were so common but still needed skill and precision in production. It´s hard to imagine how much 12AX7s or 300Bs or 6SN7s used to cost when they were widely available. Does anyone know more or less? And I keep hearing that prices went up a lot in the last years for NOS. How much?

I have read a bit about it in the past and was not sure if I´m up for the task. Is there any mod you can receommend?

Look into some of the simple DIY mods to those Cornwalls.  They really make quite a difference in SQ.

charles1dad,

From everything that I've read I'm hoping that it will be a good match. The x250.5 was so highly praised at the time, and I had several sets of speakers to try it with, but with all of them it sounded thin and transistory compared to my vintage Mac 2105, but that was a very different animal. I will let you know how it goes.

 If one can purchase a legitimately backed extended 3 year warranty for 160.00 USD this is good news and reassuring. It seems that from reviews and word of mouth the Willsenton amplifiers are a quality built product. 

I find it very interesting they can offer a 805 (DHT) output tube that requires high voltage circuit/power supply/transformer and driven by another DHT 300b in pure class A at this price point. And do so in a presumably very reliable package. That’s quite impressive. This is an ambitious undertaking.

Beyond the far more common class AB tube amplifier using pentode type tubes in a push-pull circuit.

Charles

philgo01, for those of us with trepidations regarding service after the sale, if you buy these amps through Amazon (including the smaller brother R8 which I've been eyeing after hearing it drive some Lintons), you can buy a 3-year electronics warranty for about $160.  Likely worth it in the long run I'd think, just for peace of mind.  All the reviewers say these Willsenton integrated amps are built every bit as good as the also communist China made Primaluna Evos.  Due to their popularity, Willsenton had to move to a larger factory space recently. Of course, Primaluna has a brand name recognition among "audiophiles" so resale percentage value would perhaps be higher, however if you are only caring about sound quality, the R800i (or the R8) might make sense - with an American company warranty. 

@2psyop Probably some would argue that „organic“ and „pure“ may be a contradiction, but I think I know what you say. And what @sns says goes for me in the same direction: Event though tube amps have their particular characteristics such as the warmth it doesn´t mean that it can´t handle all kinds of music that have very different sonic signatures. Maybe my comment on tube amps not being able to handle super clean style (such as Alva Noto) or something else was uninformed. And I´d be happy about that. Thanks for the correction! This changes the position of my goal posts. I´d be happy to achieve a warm but still linear sound that doesn´t let its qualities clash with music that may not need them.

Because the setup will not play vocal jazz only. My taste is also pretty broad, from Renaissance Choir Music to Chaotic Hardcore, from Ambient to Classic Rock and so on. So it has to retain some kind of neutrality while being tubey. This tube rolling adventure is about finding out to exactly what extend this can achieved.

@philgo01 All I can say is that whatever question I had was answered within half a day or a day via email. They also asked after I bought if everything arrived safely and if I was satisfied. The amp came double boxed with heavy foamy plastic inbetween. An info sheet inside said that with improved packaging they pushed the return rates because of transport damages to (as far as I remember) about 1%. Returning would definitely be a hassle but somewhere I read they were very helpful once it happened to someone. But yeah, China is not downtown.

@noromance I´m not exactly sure what you are referring to here. As I said my reference is the old Rotel I own, which it easily outperforms. Comparing to other tube amps was impossible. Going to other cities, numerous shops with different setups and rooms, probably even on different days to check out other amps that fit my criteria seemed not a desireable way to compare amps as neutrally as possible. Maybe you see that differently, fair enough. Sure, I could start with a smaller tube amp to get a feel for it. But as I mentioned before, I´m impatient, if this is the right word here. Why not go for the real deal right away. The Willsenton is cheap. Of the models I narrowed my choice down to it was still the cheapest while getting the best reviews. And cheap in this case means no dealer round the corner. It´s something, a gamble you might say, I have agreed on by buying straight from China. And that´s not something I´d recommend to everyone. It´s just what I did. And do I know that it is the best tube amp? I don´t. Does it make me happy and feel like I made a good choice? Definitely.

@ibmjunkman Thanks for the hint. Being able to speak german, english and polish already gives me quick access to far too many offers. I saw that hifishark.com automatically scours some Italian websites. So I may even buy a tube or so from there in the future.

That gives me the idea to set up a tube website list. I came across so many websites ever since I started getting into the topic, I definitley have no overview. I forgot the url of a dealer that just put up NOS tubes on his blog once s/he got new stock in. Let´s see.
There are some nice tube comparisons on websites, blogs and in forums. I wish they were all as extensive as this one about 6SN7s.

@poke33 Thanks for pointing to this, but it´s about the R8, not the R-800i model. They come with a considerably different choice of tubes so there´s only so much info I can take from this. Like what he says about 6SN7s.

Yespoke33, but that's a different amp, the less expensive kt88 one  which is also supposed to be very nice.

Tarun has a nice review of this AMP....

Enjoy your purchase!

@chmaiwald You should be able to play all genres of music with a good setup, no inherent reason your amp/speaker combo can't do it, problem elsewhere.

I have modded Klipschorns and SET amps, it plays extremely nice with the exact cuts and albums you mentioned,  EDM, electronic or really any genre. Has human warmth, along with momentum, timing, impact enough to propel and invite total involvement. My listening sessions can go from traditional vocal, lets say Nat King Cole to rock to EDM to expeimental to hip hop to jazz to classical, all very involving. 

First thing is getting timbre  and tonal balance correct, getting proper match with amp/speaker combo should take care of momentum/impact side of equation.

Over time you should play with better 300b tubes, those and 805 should have more impact on sound quality than signal tubes.

@roxy54 

The First Watt F7 should very likely be a much better match for your horn speakers compared to the Pass Lab 250.5. Intuitively the 250.5 does not seem a good match for a horn speaker. I'm curious as to how you find the F7 compared to a high quality tube amplifier driving your horns. I'm looking forward to your listening impressions.

Charles

@chmaiwald 

Congratulations on your purchase.

You are so correct, the Cornwalls love tubes!

All the best.

JD

Cart before the horse. Always listen to original first. 

Unfortunately without any reference point it will be hard for me to describe the sound of the amp accurately.

I've always wondered about after sale support from the likes Wlllsenton, Cayin, and multiple seemingly well regarded amps that don't have wide distribution in the USA.   That's the major reason I stayed away from them.

The Chrome browser translates foreign language web pages. I use it a lot for Italian pages.

chmaiwald. Very nice comments on the sound of the amp. I would be very surprised if you were not satisfied with that amp. Further down the road you can look at other tubes. I have replaced my output tubes with Genelex Gold Lion and the preamp tubes with NOS GE and Sylvania. That took my Line Magnetic up from good to very good. But I have heard Mullard, Brimar and Telefunken have a stellar sonic signature. It’s refreshing to know the amp does not get too hot. When I switched from SS to tubes I couldn’t go back. It’s either an all tube system or tubes on the preamp side and SS amp. I really like the old warm sound. To me it’s organic and pure...

Thanks for your replies!

@2psyop I have no thermometer at hand here, at least none I could use for measuring the amp´s heat. All I can say is yes, it does produce warmth or heat, but even after running for an hour you can touch the cage (above the tubes) without getting burned immediately.

@unison77 You are right there, but I´m impatient. I can always go back to the stock tubes once I hear how it sounds with others. Maybe some of the outlier tubes I bought will sound crappy and the stock ones turn out to be great in comparison, who knows.

Unfortunately without any reference point it will be hard for me to describe the sound of the amp accurately. I mean, that´s always the problem when people describe their impressions: Some of the terminology is so vague and perception to a good part individual, you always have to read what people say. Then factors like sound sources, the room, age of the listener, etc come on top.
What I can say is that compared to my old Rotel RA-03 the sound is tremendously different: The warmth is there, that I so desired, the soundstage opened. It´s like the music (especially voices) are not coming from the speakers anymore but from somewhere between them. The bass is more pronounced than before, in a pleasant way. As for the highs: I think it could improve there. On this soundstage they feel a bit like behind a curtain, just a bit. The audiophile bit that when I listen casually doesn´t matter.

One thing I have to point out that I found not expressed anywhere else: There is music, that will not work well with this amp and I guess tube amps in general. I tried Alva Noto´s latest record „Hybr:ID 1“: It´s super clean, almost surgical electronic music from Germany (he made great records with Ryuichi Sakamoto), there are high buzzes and beeping sounds paired with nice rolling bass. It feels like my stereo tries to put a human warmth in there but it struggles, it can´t. Which means it´s not designed to reproduce this kind of music the way the music asks for. And that will extend to other kinds of music too. Some brickwalled/LUFS-optimized pop and electronic music. Oh yes, I tried some current Drum´n´Bass – nah.

Here´s some music I know quite well that gained a new level of sonic expressiveness with the amp, ie: gave me much pleasure:
The Cranberries „No need to argue“ (the presence of the voice right at the beginning – I guess that will be my demo track for the stereo)
Stereolab „Margerine Eclipse“
40 Watt Sun „Perfect Light“
Bremer/McCoy „Natten“
Low „C´Mon“
Yob „Our raw heart“
Calexico „Feast of wire“
more to come...

I would listen to the amp with stock tubes for at least several months in order to learn its sonic signature (especially because you already love it), and then would start tube rolling - slowly, pair by pair. Just live with acertain pair of tubes for a while and listen to the music. Hectic tube-rolling would not bring you (and me) much pleasure...

ozzy62,

I’ll be glad to tell you after I receive it. It’s coming on Tuesday. I’m pretty excited about this one.

I bought it after reading many positive things about First Watt in general and the F7 in particular. It should be a great match with my efficient horns. The only thing that makes me slightly nervous is recalling my short ownership years ago of a Pass Labs X250.5. I hated it.

Not to derail the thread, but @roxy54 what do you think of the Pass?

I;ve read so many good things about the Willsenton KT88 integrated that I actually was seriously considering it as a second amp, but instead just bought a First Watt F7 because I always wanted to try one with my efficient speakers. 

The one that you got must be really good. I would love to hear it. The build quality of their amps looks great. Congrats.

Congrats on your new amp! That SHF thread is very informative obviously I hope you find a tube combo that you love.

I have been looking at that amp. It looks like a well made beast! Let us all know how it sounds. I have a chinese push-pull Line Magnetic 216 integrated that I really like...but curious about this one. Also I would like to know how hot it gets... please share with all who would want to know more about this amp and the Willsenton brand.