Almost 40 years ago, a dealer in Montreal loaned me a pair of MIT cables. My scientific background refused the idea that cables would have any impact on electrons propagating at the seed of light.
The impact on the soud was so evident that I bought them. Since, I have tried many cables of all kinds and spent over 20 K on cable for two systems, one in Montreal and the other on the lake.
My criteria for all my components is physical: if my arms and neck hair are raised by the music, it works for me. The other critical aspect I discovered over the years is distortion, which I think has a lot to do with crossovers. I beleive that crossovers are powerful filters whose job is to kill music. Electrostatics are clean because they don't use such filters. But i still prefer normal drivers, , 2.5 ways because somehow the roll off frequencies are away from most of the music is.
My latest speaker are Wilson Sophia 3, Raidho X3 and Q Concept 500 .
The Transparent speaker cables work fine with Wilson and Q Concept. For the Raidho I use Luna Red for speakers and usb from the Aurender to the Devialet amp.
All of this just to give you context on what I a m about to say.
The cables I foud to have the most impact is the Power cable to the power amps (solid state)! Here are my recent experiments:
Audioquest Blizzard makes the Raidhos sound dark, as if the riboon tweeter were dead !
My most expensive cable is a DR Acoustics Red fire ultra ( 5K). It makes the Qconcepts too bright.
Custom made Furutech are much better with the Q Concepts.
I will try the DR power cable with the Raidhos next week.
They are all way better than the 5$ cords supplied with electronics.
Finally, I have found litthe effect of cables on Aurender streamers and Dacs. This is aanother subject though.
Thank you for any suggestions. This is my first post here, so be indulgent !
Over the last two years I continued my power cables experiments for my Raidho and Devialet 220 Expert Pro. The best solution so far was a Siltech classic 680 . Very good match with the Raidho ribbon tweeters. Very clean highs, no edginess and no fatigue. Adding a Niagara 1200 for surge protection ( wild power fuctuations during thunderstroms here ), I was baffled by the unexpected increase in volume and details.
Replacing the Z3 with a Tornado PC gave a further increase in dynamics, but somhow the separation and details were adversy affected, as if you put an entire symphonic orchestra in a two door garage. I am exxagerating of course, but its the general idea. Also, the barely audible decorations in My Secret Life of Leonard Cohen were... no longer audible.
AQ suggests I go with all Blizzard , for synergy reasons. I will try that and also a Silver coated cable from AQ. But maybe there is another solution ? Going back to the Z3 ? Getting Another Siltech ? Soimeting else ?
I’ve enjoyed reading this thread of your journey. I had a somewhat similar path, starting as a complete skeptic (because i hadn’t heard the differences in initial experimentation) to now having a significant investment in every cable category (power, interconnect, digital and speaker). I never expected to get here.
On your most recent post detailing experience with the Niagara adding volume. I can speculate a bit on why that might be the case. But, you might also consider that the Niagara unit is quite effective at reducing the noise floor such that any given volume seems higher because the background is now “blacker”.
That was certainly my experience when I first installed a Niagara 5000. That unit is now in a lake home system replaced by a Nordost QB8 in my primary, but the effectiveness of the noise reduction circuitry in the Niagara was startling when I first heard it.
I keep experimenting with cables, as there are no measurements to helps us in this quest.
I live in the country where power is unstable, blowing up led lights occasionnaly.
So I started to look for a surge protector which would not choke the amplifier, as the ifi powercenter did. I got a Niagara 1200 really cheap at the Montreal audiofest.
I only wanted a surge protection. But I wanted to verify those claims about sq improvement. S I made a playlist of well recorded music files on my Aurender disk.
I asked my wife to sit with me during this AB test. Well, to my surprise, she also noticed clear changes. The trumpets in Leonard Cohen My Oh My were more metallic. And the separation of instruments in Mahler 3rd 1st movement by Michael Tilson Thomas was mauch better.
But the biggest change we both noticed was that the volume was much louder, although the level in the amplifier was exactly the same. A big change, more like adding 3-5 db to the amplifier.
Now that was a surprise. The Niagara does the same as getting a amplifier with twice the power, a very expensive option.
Just wanted to share this.
On a completely different subject, I head the MOFI 10 speaker again, in a smaller room with Hegel amp. Amazing image and depth. What an incredible bargain.
Classé power amps come with 800 $ DR Acoustics cables. I think most manufacturers presume that customers have their own preferences. They just thorw in a basix cable just in case. Also, the final impact of this cable depends on the rest of the system. IE if the speakers are bright, a more revealing cable may be bad.
Too much to read through all the previous posts, but the one thing that has never been explained to me (satisfactorily) is if PCs make such a profound difference, and if matching is so critical, why don't Amp (and any component) manufacturers help us out by providing the best cable for 'their' products?! I am not suggesting that cables do or do not make a difference, I'm simply asking a question from a practical/logical perspective. Manufactures spend countless hours and invest countless dollars to have their product stand out from the crowd, why would they leave something as simple as a PC on the sound-quality table?!....
Thank you for sharing your experiences with me. I really appreciate.
I want to keep you posted on the pursuit of my experiments.
I now have two high end sound systems now, over 100 K invested, of which 10 K in cables. In Montreal I have mostly Transparent speaker and interconnects with a Simaudio amp and recently Q concept 500 speakers. In the chalet, now our main home, I have new Raidho X3 with Devialet amp and Luna Red usb and speaker cables.
My problem here is with power cords. Here are my findings:
The Audioquest Blizzard with the Raidhos make them sound less lively than a cheaper power cord. The same setup with the Q concept worked fine ( I had them at the chalet for a month)
The Q concepts back in Montreal replace Wilsons Sophia 3 . Now the sound is too bright. No distortion, but too bright nevertheless. So I took out the DR Acoustics Red fire ( 5 K) and swapped home made Furutech heavy gauge. ( 200 $). And guess what: the balance of the speakers was back to normal. Could have more separation in instruments, but at least you can listen to the music and not the equipment.
I am not an engeneer, bus I said to myself: if the DR are more revealing, why noy try them with the Raidhos. Well, I just did and .... it works !! The Raidhos are now as good as they were in the store.
In tis swap, the impact of the power cord was as big as one qurter turn in the old treble knobs. Much bigger impact than interconnects , digital and even speaker cables.
Finally, I want to point out that I went to a lot of live concerts in my life: Pink Floyd, ELP, Police, Sade etc, as weel as many symphonies in Montreal, Paris, Vienna, Milano, Carenigie hall etc.
My criteria for any music, live or reproduced is: does it make my hair raise on my arms and the top: on my neck.
My exprience with 4 power cables fron 50 to 5000 $ made that happen in both systems.
Conclusion: experiment with power cords. If your hair stays down, do not buy.
Power cords, interconnects and cables do make a big difference, one thing I have learned that new cables or used cables that have not been in use will need some time to break in, I had retired a pair of speaker cables that sounded just as good as the pair I'm using but of course I thought I would compare them again and the difference was night and day, the cables that had been out of use sounded nothing like they did before but after a few days of normal listening they sounded much better.. It's weird that what sounds good with someones gear might sound bad with your gear.If your like me sitting in the sweet spot wanting the best sound you can afford then you will have try a lot of combinations of cables, cords and interconnects but if you are happy with the way it sounds best to leave it alone and enjoy it. Instead of upgrading a preamp or power amp try different interconnects and you might be surprised how good it can sound and a lot cheaper than upgrading your preamp and less you go for the really expensive gear, and this is my thinking but most of us know if you have a high end or ultra high end system to get the most out of it you will need cabling to match that gear, basically match your cables to what your system needs, don't put high end cables on modest gear and don't put modest cables on high end gear, that is my advise to the newcomers of this hobby but for us old farts we know all that and let your ears decide what sounds the best on YOUR system and let the cabling break in but if the cable you just put in sounds better than what you have been using it should keep sounding better as it breaks but if sounds worst give it sometime of normal use then make your decision.
Your scientific skepticism toward cables was justified, as few still understand them. First, electrons do not travel at light speed. While the EM wave travels at 50-80% c, after Feynman and applying the index of refraction for skin depth effect at frequency we find, for example at 20 Hz, the Vp, velocity of propagation, is 1.83 m/s. Therefore the wavelength is 0.30 ft, therefore cable length matters at AF. Secondly, what you are hearing with different cables is the result of matching impedances with amplifier circuits. To prove and measure this, watch the reflected pulse on an oscilloscope to prove this to yourself. Better yet a spectral analyzer to see the intense noise remaining on your cable. Cables are active places, while amplifiers are relatively quiet. These tools are far less expensive than a single audio component yet who has them.
Third, power cables have a different application. To be brief again, a very low inductance is desired, yet I have yet to see this parameter advertised. Secure connections with a high clamping force are essential. The bandwidth should also be wide because of the switching delay from the forward bias of the diodes, among several other factors.
Not enough time to address your several concerns. Also I don’t know how to respond to responses as I comment infrequently.
Many years ago I owned a Bryston 4B. My friend had a Threshold 400A which sounded better. Passing through an audio salon I found a used 400A that I manged to obtain for a great price. I got the dealer to throw in a SEAC cable (litz wire, rhodium connectors) for free. I was astonished to discover that the $100 cable made more of a difference in my system than the $3000 amplifier. This experience mad a believer out of me.
man, ive had a bit of a learning experience around cables reently. i always used 16 or 14 AWG zip wire/extension cords for spear wire. if its long or higher wattage i use 12/2 landscape cable--pure copper, stranded, 12AWG. been happy. also used 12 AWG speaker cables for high power PA systems in my home stereo as well.
used some cheap interconnects and used some blue jeans cables.
bought some morrow audio recently. set up my smaller system entirely with morrow audio level one for components and level 2 between preamp and amp. usin level 2 or 3 speaker cable. the speaers im usin are really midrange foreward with plenty of detail in the upper register to use for nearfield monitors. lately theyve sounded harsh.
well somethings happened. that hardhness has steadily been going away. im not getting used to it--the sound is getting smoother and sweeter ,and i dont know what the heck it could be other than burn in.
my brother came over today and said its the best goddam desktop system hes ever heard.
my source components are
rega 3 w/ sumiko blue point #3, laptop -> moon audio 100D DAC, cheap DVD player-> moon audio 100D DAC
-> audio by van alstine fet valve RB preamp, stock jj tubes -> adcom GFA-535-> halford loudspeaers margaritas
hey, somethings happened. its defnitely sounding sweter and other folks have, unprompted, noticed.
Sharing my experience, In 55 years of owning audio equipment, I've never heard a mind-altering difference if you swap out one quality cable with another. I have heard differences but nothing that ever made me say, "Damn, I just have to have one of those."
I connected my current system together with Purist Audio products and a couple of other manufacturers of like level and the system sounds fine to me. The audiologist tells me I have some specific hearing losses (different in each ear) so, at this point, if there is a difference I'm probably not going to hear it. Makes it a whole lot easier than chasing the ever-changing world of the "best cable for my system."
I understand people who do it as a hobby, it's never been a hobby for me, I treat it like it's a system to use not futz with trying to find the ultimate sound for the money I have Holy Grail pursuit.
If you enjoy tweaking your system - and cables are the latest do-dad - have fun doing it. Just look out for those fuses...
Yes power cords are crazy. Yes, they can make the biggest change over all the other cables. Try a Purist Audio Dominus AC cord for your analog components. Try their Aquila AC cord for Digital sources that output digital signals.
@sparkymaui OCC single crystal is a method of manufacturing. The metal is drawn in very long smooth strands with no breaks and fewer imperfections. A crude example would be a long strand of silk vs a strand of twine.
Yep sure is $10K Integrated, $10K Speakers. $10K Digital front, $10K Analog front end, $100K in Cables.
Man it sounds good in my garage.
I am partial to Purist Audio 30th Anniversary AC cable at $15,000 a pop. A loom of 6 of these babies (90 grands) will make your system sing. What?? That’s not what you guys use? 😀
I am partial to Purist Audio 30th Anniversary AC cable at $15,000 a pop. A loom of 6 of these babies (90 grands) will make your system sing. What?? That’s not what you guys use? 😀
"Objective opinion" is not as clear as "fact" -- to me. Because opinions are typically thought to be "subjective." But as long as you think it's precise, I'm happy to leave it where you think it should rest.
On my system I can't tell much difference on power cord. Although I have changed all to include various different from AQ. Monsoon for amps, NRG for pre and everything else. Can't tell much difference in Digital cables. However I do use Kimber D60, AQ Carbon usb, DH labs d110 Aes/Ebu, Harmonic technology magic, and AQ Carbon Digital rca. They all sound kinda the same. Great. I do tell a difference in interconnect between pre and dacs, amps and phono pre, CD player. There I am using a mix of Mogami Gold, Harmonic technology truthlink, Kimber Hero, Kimber PBJ, Cambridge Audio and AQ Carbon. All are XLR except CD and Phono pre.
@lucmichaud1I have been exchanging my OCC wire Cables to PC Tripe C wire Cable and DUCC wire Cable.
The impression the PC Triple C cable has had through the initial use as a Phono Cable has been enough to trigger curiosity and to learn more about how it can influence the SQ from the system.
The System is nearly completed with a full Cable change. At present there are Cartridge Tag Wires, nano treated Power Cord, RCA Phono Interconnect's and Speaker Cable, that are introduced.
The intention is to have all devices powered with a nano treated PC Triple C Power Cord, as the impression made when using the Power Cord on the available devices has been notable for the perception of improvement, especially on the Digital Source Devices.
My nano treated PC Triple C Power Cord has been on loan for a period of time to a friend who has been converting to PC Triple C wire, even to the point the impression made, has encouraged them to have found a way to use the wire as an internal wand signal wire in their Tonearm. This same Person has said the nano treatment is preferred over their owned Cryo Treated PC Triple C wire Power Cord, the nano Treated Wire that is on loan is said to improve on the resolution.
The detected differences could have initially been due to a variety of factors, but now both have been compared to each other using the same Plug Connectors, the variables that can be contributing are getting less.
I ride the city bus to work. That bus has a mixture of people, but typically there are some that just *have* to tell random other people what they think. Sometimes they’re drunk, sometimes not. But for some there is this psychic pressure to let words out of their mouth. Others on the bus glance over at them or ignore them, mostly. They don’t want to get entangled with people who have "issues." Ignoring them is usually the safest course, and it allows civilized people to continue what they’re doing.
On occasion the people uttering random comments are threatening or obstreperous; so, the bus pulls over and the cops show up. Kind of unpleasant, but it’s the price of keeping things decent for everyone else.
Both the OP and another poster a few posts into the thread politely asked the naysayers to refrain from making negative or dissenting comments ... guess what? That's exactly what happened. Kind of exposes their character.
I guess it would be asking too much for them to take a hands off approach and let the conversation go on unimpeded.
Don't know if this dynamic ^^^ entertains any of our other members to the same degree as it does me, but it cracks me up to see certain members, almost always the same ones, knocking the approach someone else has taken to lower their noise floor or how they've built their own individual system.
I say this with the highest degree of respect for your particular setup, whatever you have, at whatever level you're participating in our shared hobby ... who gives a fly**g fa*t what you think. I think some just feel compelled to give others s**t?
I read one time years ago that someone likened the dynamic that goes on in these forums to the types of roles we all played, individually, in high school from a social standpoint. Like the type of cliques that were formed, whether you're a geek, dork, rich kid, bully, etc.
I'm not going to try to illustrate that point further b/c it's sort of a to each his own kind of thing as far as those perceptions go. But check out that dynamic and see if it doesn't fit. The two roles I'd like to point out are the d***h**d bully and the smart**s punk, because they seem to be the ones that are here to cause dissension.
The way I've personally come to understand the relevance, for myself, of how power being clean or not affects my system, and the role that wires and cables play in how good my system performs is by listening to what literally everyone has had to share. All respective angles, you might say. By keeping an open mind and listening to other people's experiences ... both good and bad. That's also the reason I'm of the mindset that I think there's too much censorship. It causes so many valuable points and perspectives to be buried. Not disappearing those disruptive posts would also help those of us who're trying to be constructive around here identify the troublemakers.
Like others have pointed out, there are a lot of folks around here that have waaaaay bigger resources to build their systems than I do. I personally get a kick out of some of the absurd spending that goes on around here ... but it doesn't bother me in the least. I've got a little kid bit to share, having beacon bucks doesn't equate with being happy and most of the time works in the opposite direction. Some of those folks with the biggest budgets have taught me some of the best lessons about which direction I want to move next in building my system and refining my sound. The ones that's smart and have good taste, anyway.
I've got some rather revealing speakers, some would say too revealing and they're also rather detailed, again some would say too detailed (Martin Logan, Summit) ... but my own personal experience has been that at the moment I introduced a PS Audio P15 into my system it quite literally brought everything together. It was expensive as hell but I would say worth literally every penny.
My own understanding, from what I've learned from being schooled on this site, is that what that would indicate more than anything is that I have good synergy b/w my components.
I read a ton of reviews before I bucked up for my Nordost cables b/c they're absurdly expensive, but I would have to agree that one of the best things about them is that they'll let whatever's there shine thru unabated.
To each his/her own on what it takes to get your individual system to perform at its peak. From what I can tell it's both a science and an art ... and I suppose this issue is kind of like parenting, in that we all (every last one of us) gets to have our own take on the situation. And I believe it's even more true that every one of us will get results that are commensurate with our own individual understanding/mastery of all the different variables involved.
Like I said, I guess it's just asking too much for all of us to be able to get along and play together nicely.
The OP did not use blind testing! His opinions/conclusions are highly suspect!
So are yours.
I like Synergistic Research cables (and still use some other brands in the mix for power), but like you @lucmichaud1, certain equipment seems to benefit more than others. Have to experiment and find what works best with your equipment.
Jason Bourne: you sound like you are in distress and / or panic mode. Three consecutive posts in a very short period of time:
The OP did not use blind testing! His opinions/conclusions are highly suspect! If I had a dollar for every "my golden ears tell me it is so" post here on Agon I’d have a million $$$$!
When is the OP going to submit his theory of why power cords sound different to the Noble Prize Committee for Physics? Enquiring minds want to know!
The Emperor really has no clothes on!
I encourage you to not do anything crazy, and calm down.
Breaking news to you: people are free to share their impressions here at will. They don’t need to provide any proof, blind tests or otherwise, to be able to share their impressions. On the other hand, please feel free to share your own blind tests, if that is what you are all about. Obviously, all your blind tests needs to be conducted under strict scientific parameters, and certified by an independent third party panel.
Call me crazy, I noticed a difference when I installed my Audioquest Thunder PC....for me, an expensive cable at near a grand. It is connecting my Amp to my AQ Niagara, from there I use a AQ NRG Z3 cable to the wall receptacle, an AQ Edison. You have to wrestle the Thunder cable like a Python, but once in place, it stays put.
it's totally crazy to spend $5000 on a pair of cables when it buys a good amp or turntable, a luxury holiday or even something nice for the wife.
Someone with a lot less money than you would say it's totally crazy to buy Starbucks when they can make instant coffee at home.
If it gives someone pleasure to buy Starbucks or an expensive power cable, then your opinion as to how they *should* spend their money is almost the same as telling them that they are having the wrong pleasure. But surely you cannot say that.
Thank you all so much for your responses. Food for thought for sure.
I can add that I do have dedicated lines with PS Audio and Audioquest wall outlets.
In my quest for the new main system, I have listened carefully to over 500,000 $ of high end speakers in the last year, not counting all those at the Montreal Audio show. A long but immensly satisfying journey. Thank you for the Dealers in Montreal , Codell Audio, Art et Son and Éric at Filtronique and in Paris, Devialet main store and Présence audio. Speakers were Magicos, Wilsons, Paradigm Persona, Audiovector, Rockport, Focal, Sonus faber, Qln and Raidho, just to name the finalists.
They were all great, but different. I could summarize my findings in another post.
But going back to cables, power in particular, I am quite baffled by the big sonic difference I hear between the Audioquest blizzard, which I would describe as dark, TDR Red Fire, too much detail and brightness for the Q Concepts and Furutech, with good balance but maybe less differentiantion of instruments in orchestral music.
I know this is all scientifically unexplainable, but I still need to make a choice.
My wife has better hearing than me, and although she has no interest in all this, she and her daughter immediately notice when I made a change and can describe it in their own terms, which are correct.
I listen to hours of music every day, often at pretty high volumes. I discover new music with Apple Music and Qobuz reviews. I then buy the hires tracks from Qobuz and store them in the Aurender. Contemporary recordings by ECM, DG, Erased Tapes etc are incredibly better than last century ones. But in the end, its the music that counts.
Thank you all again for sharing your thoughts with me.
I certainly hear differences in cables when they are in the signal path but none in power cables and certainly none in fuses - well, I've only tried putting the fuse in the other way but many people say this makes a big difference because wire is directional.
But you are quite right. All this is massively overdone and it's totally crazy to spend $5000 on a pair of cables when it buys a good amp or turntable, a luxury holiday or even something nice for the wife.
The OP did not use blind testing! His opinions/conclusions are highly suspect! If I had a dollar for every "my golden ears tell me it is so" post here on Agon I'd have a million $$$$!
if you buy OCC single crystal wire you don't have to do all this BS anymore, OCC single Crystal has been proven now for over 50 years to be the best wire for audio that is out there far superior to anything ofc at any price. and that MIT and transparent stuff is terrible those boxes just screw up everything.
totally accurate! High rises and cities power is so different. Depends on noise levels and interference. That is why in my 2 unit condo I have a dedicated 20 amp line. Cost me about 3k with nice 10-2 cable. Very important to not get cheap ass romex cable for this and don’t bend cable to dedicated line! About 750 for 200 feet. I then bought a great cable (v2) from wall into my qb8 power distributor. Then cables from the components. Hunting down and killing noise is so expensive, but is worth every penny for that hair raising on arm aound as lucmichaud1 said.
Plus how clean the power is in your house will play a big role. So many factors that may or may not apply in every system. Two people could have identical systems that sound differently in different houses because of power and the listening space (layout, surface materials, etc). A bit mind blowing and intimidating for many when you think about it.
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