I recently sold a pair of mono amps and checked the box that indicated the original manual was included. I never use the manual for something like this and just assumed the manual was in the box as there were some various papers from the manufacturer in the boxes.
The buyer got the amps safely and they are in perfect condition as described. I shipped the same day the item sold. Unfortunately the manuals were not in the boxes the amps came in. These were the original boxes, but the manuals are not there according to the buyer.
I sent him the link to download the pdf of the manual. He is not happy with that. I offered to print a color double sided copy (on good stock) at Kinkos for $20 (at my expense) and ship that to him. He says that the original manual was promised and that I have to deliver that to him. And that he dervers two of them since the amps came in two separate boxes. He is threating to kill the deal and dispute with audiogon and paypal.
I admit that I'm in the wrong for mis-stating that the manuals were included. I will attempt to order the manuals from the manufacturer on Monday, but I don't know that the manufacturer will provide them even if I pay for them.
I'd appreciate comments regarding this problem. Thank you.
I also agree about the rating system. I've seen 8/10 that looked like they took a belt sander to it and I've seen 9/10 amplifiers that are sitting on a paver patio for the pictures. How about speakers in a messy garage?
I understand that the deal was breached, but the buyer is the kind of person I love to hate. I would have taken up that guys offer immediately and backed out on the deal with an apology. When the amps arrived back at my door step I would have a party. What Agon should ask of buyers is are they collecting gear to look at or are they buying gear to listen to. We all make mistakes and this guy doesn't seem to realize this and has his pantries in a bunch. He's playing you. I would call his bluff. Nothing in audio is a collectors item and anyone who says your amps are worth less without the manual is dillusional. Don't get me wrong though. This is clearly your fault. I just don't see what the big deal is.
Can you contact the manufacturer and ask them if they can send you an original manual for the amp? If so, that should solve the problem. Unless it is a vintage or collectable, rare amp, I think they buyer is being VERY unreasonable, and just wants to back out of the deal.
"One last point, if people are going to get worked up about misrepresentations in ads, then a far more serious problem is the 1 thru 10 grading system describing the equipment's condition. Are there really that many pieces for sale that qualify as 9s?"
On that point, I see clearly wrong ads all the time. In fact, the guy that sold me these exact amps, his ad said they came with "Remote". He checked the "Remote Included" box on his ad when he listed it. Now, of course power amps don't have remotes. However, should I make him give me my money back because he did not ship the remotes?
People make mistakes all the time in these ads. I've saw an ad yesterday where the expensive item was listed for $0. Should I demand that be honored?
A professionally printed version of the pdf, printed in color on thick glossly paper, printed in magazine format and center stapled like a magazine will be equal to or most likely far superior to the cheap black and white copy that was probably the original manual (which, by the way would probably have been folded and wrinkled too). And it surely would satisfy the future buyer should this guy ever sell. Which means there would be zero financial loss over the missing manuals. So how has he been damaged under those circumstances? It would be different if this was a collectible manual and the "original" version was somehow coveted by collectors and thereby added value. But that is not the case. Nobody collects "original" high end amp manuals. A quality copy has no less value than the original.
I don't see how a reasonable person would conclude that was not good enough. We are not talking about the amps OR any of the accessories which were all shipped as promised and were described correctly.
Since this is the most anal hobby known to man I would be a bit bent if something didnt come with the manual. I always like to have the original boxes, manuals & if possible original purchase receipt or copy of the receipt. It makes me feel that the product was treated with the respect it deserves. Like others, try to buy the manuals. If they come in photo copied from the mfg, see if they will give you a letter that states this is what they originalally supplied. If thats what they were/are and the buyer still doesn't like it, then they're just being an ass. Good luck, John
"My brother is a toy collector and he will often buy an item just because the original box is in better condition than the boxes of two of the exact same item that he already owns."
I don't believe that is a fair analogy. This is not a vintage piece. Collectability is not a factor here at all. Professionally printed versions of the pdf would be indistinquisable from the original to any future buyer. There is no intrinsic value in the paper used by the manufacturer to print the original copy of the manual.
As Elizabeth pointed out earlier in this thread, often manufacturers include very poor quality manuals. I've often received normal copier paper stabled in the corner as the manual.
I contacted the seller that sold the to me on audiogon. He was the original owner. He claims the boxes never contained manuals. Maybe the manufacturer just directs people to the pdf downloads.
I would download the .pdf and get them professionally printed. Send to the buyer, and if he accepts then you're good top go. If not I think you need to eat it. That would suck, he's being unreasonable, but it's not the end of the world. Relist and move on.
You haven't provided any of the correspondence between the the buyer and yourself so I can't get an idea of the buyer's attitude. Basically, if the buyer is coming off as a jerk or worst yet, an asshole, then I think it's perfectly within your right to act like a prick to his asshole behavior. Take a hard line and if he gives negative feedback so be it. On the other hand, if the buyer seems like a truly nice guy, even an unreasonable, but still nice guy, then you might want to just cancel the whole transaction.
If you had one negative feedback and you could point to this thread as the reason, I'd gladly do a future transaction with you.
One last point, if people are going to get worked up about misrepresentations in ads, then a far more serious problem is the 1 thru 10 grading system describing the equipment's condition. Are there really that many pieces for sale that qualify as 9s?
How much does he want to make it right? If it's a reasonable amount, give him a partial refund. I hate to say it, but I think I agree with Buconero - the guy has buyer's remorse and he's looking for a way out of the deal.
Your positive feedback indicates at least 44 hassle free transactions dating from 2009. Unfortunately, representing that the original manual was included with your amp sale was a mistake - we all make them. You had the opportunity to verify the manual was present before listing the amps, and again before shipping them. Having the original manual is apparently a big deal to your buyer. If you cannot supply the original manual, or otherwise satisfy your buyer, let them return the amps (you pay shipping) and start over. Anything less and you have an unhappy buyer.
My brother is a toy collector and he will often buy an item just because the original box is in better condition than the boxes of two of the exact same item that he already owns.
Assuming that this guy is cast from the same mold, offer a refund with return shipping included. Unless this an attempt to wrangle a discount out of you, unwinding the transaction is the only thing that will work.
Rlwainwright, I have never given a seller negative feedback even though a few have deserved it. As we all know negative feedback can be very damaging to a seller in terms of his ability to sell and the amount he will receive for his equipment. Is it really worth telling a buyer to go pound sand especially when the buyer is in the right? I do not know how sellers have adopted the attitude that they are doing us all a big favor by selling us their used equipment.
It should be clear to all that the land of 'audiophiles' is heavily populated by very picky, finicky and over bearing humans, it comes with the hobby. So, buy and sell accordingly.
Oh, the buyer is in the right, so ask him to return the units. Paypal most likely will not require the seller to refund the return shipping as it is their policy to only refund the original value of the transaction, no less, no more. My guess is that the buyer is unhappy with the units themselves and wants a basis for return.
I wonder about the parenting style of people who raised some of the "super-finicky" snobs that want things "just so". Sounds like you made a reasonable effort to ameliorate the situation. I couldn't possibly express how vindicated I feel when I encounter one of these types that try this kind of crap when they need something from me that falls under the rubric of my area of expertise. I am most certainly polite, uber competent and EXTREMELY expensive. :)
Original boxes and original manuals give the product additional value. Just because a couple of people here feel it's not important to them is irrelevant. You advertised the amplifiers with original manuals and that is what the buyer paid for. However, I do not believe a set of mono amplifiers come with two manuals. If you can come up with one original manual I would consider it case closed.
The buyer is not 'unreasonable or irrational.' You said you had the manuals. Maybe he wants them in case he sells the amps at a later date, maybe, like me, he just wants the orignal equipment, boxes, packings and all else included. I lost the manual to my Nakamichi 700, got a copy from the company, but it's not the same, and I don't even buy and sell. Iif the buyer decides to take your offers that's up to him. Otherwise do the right thing. And if could be that he passed on other amps for sell just because you said you had the manuals and the other sellers did not. Cheers.
I tend to agree with Tbromgard, as your ad listed original manual and is therefore an "inaccurate" ad. Yes, the buyer is being difficult, but because he has received an item NOT "as advertised", he does have some ground to stand on. Personally, I've usually worked around such discriminations as a buyer and a seller, usually with some sort of discount involved. Fortunately though, I haven't had to deal with any irrational individuals....yet.
Hopefully you can procure a copy of the original manual from the manufacturer and that will bridge the deal. I wouldn't bother with two manuals, since I'm sure your ad simply stated original manual in the singular sense, and not original manuals in the plural sense.
Its important to be as accurate as possible in ads. Technically, you are in breach of the deal. It is slight, and you have offered to cure the defect, and the buyer seems a bit unreasonable. However, its still a breach of the deal. If the buyer is intent on backing out, there is not real loss to anyone, is there? I say if he doesnt want it, find another willing buyer. Just my 2 cents.
I don't think not having the original manual should in anyway negate the sale. You are buying the piece of gear not the manual. I would have been fine with a pdf or the Kinko's option.
I feel that maybe the buyer is using this to offset buyer's remorse or maybe his wife is mad or etc. I think something else is going on here, but just my opinion.
IMHO, if you can procure a manual from the company, that should satisfy the buyer and sale.
Well, while the buyer's response strikes me as a bit irrational, the fact is that there are a fair number of buyers on this site who put enormous store on having the original manual, and won't purchase equipment without it. And the simple, hard truth is that you did not accurately describe what you were selling. The honorable thing to do, it seems to me, is to offer a full refund, including shipping, to be paid when the buyer has returned the equipment to you in good condition (I would not refund the money until the equipment has been been returned).
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