Searching for the most "accurate" speaker (below 15K)
I’m looking for the most accurate and resolving speakers (budget is <= 15K). Paradigm Persona 3F, Kef Reference 3 or Focal Sopra 2 are some of the options I can think of. Any opinions on how these compare? Should I had other options to this shortlist? The amplifier is the (absolutely extraordinary) Nagra Classic AMP.
@vermeer My previous home in Upstate NY was also a suspended wood floor, though having the main system on the first level meant a more coupled setup to / with the foundation. This house is nearly 100 years old. I'm now in New Orleans in a home that is raised, with suspended wood floors also. This home is over 80 years old. When my son 'walks' in the room the TV, which is on a console, starts seriously waving reflections at me. I may have to isolate the TV!!!
Let me know what you find as you 'play' with isolation solutions for the speakers.....PM if you prefer your thread to stay on track.
As noted here, one has to "go out" and listen to as many speakers as possible. All speakers introduce coloration to the sound, so it is vital to listen and find out what YOU like in terms of sound and which brand YOU favor. Hype about a speaker or any electronics is flat out dangerous if you don’t have money to waste or blow through. Many audiophiles here have listened to dealer hype or went on the advice of a brand "fanboy" only to have bought something that does not sound good to THEM. Dealers have an agenda, sell their products. Owners of products they like, will get over-enthusiastic about the great stereo they have. The smart prospective audio buyer will listen to as many components as they can, and find (in your case) speakers that truly fit what YOU like.
From a practical perspective it is impossible for anyone to audition all available speaker options in one lifetime. There are many hundreds of brands and thousands of brand/model combinations. So at some level, purchasing decisions becomes a crap shoot.
Similarly, to the point of a fanboy club or cult, in the singular sense caution is advised, but once the number of fans grows into the thousands, tens of thousands and beyond you can usually rest assured there is something grate to behold. And should things still not sound good to *you* at that point, it may be time to question *your* hearing and/or change your preferences.
If I were looking at speakers at the $15k price point, I could make calls to dealers to make appts and listen within a reasonable driving distance. Also Audio shows can be fun, and one can listen to many (not all?) speaker brands. That bit of research could prove to very constructive, working toward a smart purchase.
Last saturday I brought the Paradigm Persona 3F home ... and they are not leaving (!) Its neutrality, transparency and speed are shocking for its price tag. I felt like they asked me: "So, you want the truth? Can you handle the truth!?". Well, it turns out that I can ... but it's a (rewarding) challenge. These are "dangerous" speakers. They will be everyone's favourites. It adds and subtracts so little from the signal that one has to re-educate the ear. Recording you used to consider great are, after all, not that great. And the opposite is true as well. My wife is a lyric singer. We were listening to one of the "perfect" performances and she was noticing for the very first time some "imperfections" ... which in her perspective make it so much more "human" and authentic. I do agree ...
The organic ultra-resolution of the Nagra Classic Amp are a perfect match. They deserve the very best electronics you can get ... And I have them sitting on the top of
Seismic Isolation Podium from Townshend. So, I think I'm treating them well :)
@audiotroy : I totally agree with your analysis. Not everyone's ears are the same ... but it looks like we listen in the same way ;)
@tomcy6 : I took my amp to a friend's house to listen to his Summit X with the Nagra. The sound was awesome, but the place is some 70 sq. meters ... when I moved to the position where I will be listening to them at home, the sound felt unnatural (like having huge headphones). The Persona are a perfect fit for the room size ...
@vermeer Congratulations and terrific to hear you've found a pair of speakers you are already loving. I imagine it will only get better as you further optimize.
We just over the weekend setup a set of the Persona 9H with the T+A PA 3000 HV integrated amplifier.
Untreated room, starter interconnects, no power conditioning, no room tuning a cheapier Oppo player and you know what??
Still freaking amazingly real. The gentleman is a piano player with an classic Steinway, we sat there and compared the live sound of the Steinway with the same track on the Personas. and the Persona sounded increadibily lifelike so much so it was truly a testament to who brilliant a job the Paradigm engineers did on this series of loudspeakers.
Vermeer if you are ever in the states New York area, we would love to have you in for a visit our setup is among the best setups of the Persona’s anyone can hear and life like it is.
Congradulations and burn in the speakers well, they will get even better, also get a set of the Isoactoustics Gaia footers for a remarkable improvment that will take up the speakers by a good 15-20%.
@vermeer , Congratulations on the Paradigms. I had listened to these speakers about 2 months back. And that too is a really bad setting - huge glass window (1 piece) behind them. The speakers were also not set optimally with the right speaker near a doorway while the left had plenty of open space next to it. The amp was a Peachtree. And guess what! They sounded really really good in this setup. I was amazed that they "focused" so well with vocals, especially the way they were setup. If you set them up correct in your room, I am sure you will be more than thrilled. I believe they are very good value for money. Enjoy your music!
Well, since this is one of the few threads featuring talk of the Paradigms that hasn’t gone to sh#t, I figure I’ll post this here:
As I mentioned on the Thiel owner’s thread (I have Thiel 3.7s and 2.7s), I auditioned the Paradigm Persona 3F recently. (Love the Thiels, but if I hear a speaker like better I’ll buy them). Here’s my report, to be taken with the same grain ’o salt any in store audition requires:
They were in a sizable room. Should have been a bit further out from the back wall (they were probably about 2 1/2 to 3 feet from the back wall, and I like to pull speakers out further than that). But still performed very well. Amp was a big assed Anthem amp as I remember. The speakers were fairly wide apart - I’d guess 7 to 8 feet, and I sat at an equilateral triangle from them much of the time. The speakers were very slightly toed in toward the listening position.
I istened to a bit of vinyl, but then mostly my CD demo disks which span from pop, to electronic, classical, soundtrack, world, jazz, prog, folk, etc.
My main impression was that the Persona’s sounded pretty much like I expected: Really open, super clean and clear. The "air" extended like there was no cap on the frequencies hence they could sound very "there" and realistic, especially with higher frequency bells, cymbals etc.
There was also a real sense of balance to the sound from top to bottom - reminded me of the Revel speakers (and my Thiels). The sound was full and in control from bottom to top. Bass, in this set up, started hinting at being over-warm, or "port-like" but in most tracks it was really beautifully controlled. The bass in Mile’s "So What" was presented in as balanced and effective way as I’ve heard it: properly holographic in the back ground, quiet, yet each bass note having good heft and subtle drive.
Generally there was excellent pitch control for bass guitar, with good differentiation of tone and timbre. Sometimes maybe a bit fatter on the bottom than I’m used to, but still stopping and starting well. The Persona’s grip on mid-bass/bass pitch, combined with the super smooth open, crystalline sound gave one of the most believable and fun reproductions of Herbie Hancock’s Chameleon that I’ve ever heard.
The see-through transparency and rich mid/bass tonal grip gave Herbie’s synth’s really wonderful character, and the close mic’d drum sounded "in the room."
On some tracks I felt I heard a more accurate, real version of some instruments, like some snare drums, that I’m really familiar with.
I’d say the dynamics - which I’d check with drum solos and other similar fare - were average: certainly quite good, but not stand out in any way. The realism came more from the tonal clarity and life-like high end, vs dynamics.
Soundstaging was excellent - they did a great job of disappearing as sound sources. I checked some tracks that show me whether a speaker "disappears" well or not - tracks with some hard panned instruments that "get stuck" in the speaker on lesser speakers. The Paradigms floated behind, to the back of, or even outside of the speaker - the sign of a great imaging design (my Thiels do that incredibly well).
I played music from Everything But The Girl, some songs with layers of acoustic guitar (and stand up bass, intimate vocals), and the Paradigms layered them beautifully, not just in the sense of imaging, but bringing out the particular clarity and sparkle of each different guitar.
I am crazy about soundtracks, especially those by Bernhard Hermann, so one of the discs I play is the Jason And The Argonauts soundtrack - which is a fantastic recording, fairly close-miced like many of Hermann’s soundtracks are, for maximum tonal color and dynamic impact. The Paradigms played this brilliantly, the famous Hermann woodwinds having rich body, super clarity, every "buzz" of reed intact and easily audible, nice bass weight and growl, and a good separation of metal from reed instruments - Hermann’s music is great for this because he so often pairs horns and woodwinds playing the same descending patterns, so a system that can let me discern which part of the note is which instrument earns high marks. The close-mic’d percussion, wood blocks, bells, castanets, had a starting "thereness" and realism.
Finally, I found the general "size" if the sound, in soundstaging, image sizes of singers and instruments, and impact, to be very satisfying. The 3F hits that nice sweet spot; a nice looking speaker, not obnoxiously big, but just big enough to get that full range picture you can’t get from stand mounted monitors.
It was indeed high-end sound with a bang!
So all that said, did I find myself compelled to possibly purchase? No. They were intriguing, promising, better than most speakers I’ve auditioned recently. But in the end did not fully grab me.
I did in the end find them a bit relentless to listen to; to fall back to the old audiophile cliche, a bit on the "hi-fi" side; a classic case of transparency and highs and detail being almost "too much of a good thing." On many tracks, especially pop, or Van Halen, my ears really scrunched down because of the cutting quality of the highs. The artificial, electronic nature of most recordings was shoved more in my face - hard vocal sibilance etc. It reminded me a little of my experiences with older (and some newer) Focal speakers, a bit of "look at me" performance from an expensive tweeter. It’s not that I heard the beryllium tweeters sounding detached from the beryllium mids, just that hi-fish aspects of the sound seemed prominent - the breath of a singer being more pronounced, hence vocals often had a bit more whitish, breathy quality vs the fleshier in-throat tone of the actual note. So while vocals could sound startlingly clear and present, I didn’t get the sense of listening to a real, organic person nearly as often as I do at home.
Overall, at least from the equilateral position, speakers very lightly toed in, the Persona’s had a tonal/timbral quality that veered to the "bright, whiter, silvery." So trumpets, cymbals etc, more constantly evoked "silver" in my mind, rather than "burnished brass" that I get at home. Whether one likes that is a taste thing.
As I always do, I experimented with various listening positions including much closer to "take the room out of the equation" a bit more. Closer up, as with most speakers, the tonal balance mellowed and darkened a bit and to my ears because less hi-fi, more natural. It was there that they sounded more promising in terms of how I would position them if I owned these speakers.
When I got home I spun the same tracks on my home system (at the moment I have the smaller Thiel 2.7s set up, but know this stuff like the back of my hand on the big Thiels). It made me want to hug my Thiels :-) Admittedly the Thiels benefit, for my tastes, paired with my Conrad Johnson Premier 12 tube monoblocks. But the sound in comparison is a bit darker, lush, warm, amazingly believable vocals, dynamic, open, clear...almost ideal. I’d say the Persona’s are more impressive in the area of frequency extension, clarity. The big Thiel 3.7s are less colored than the 2.7s, with an even more open and boxless sound - still the most even, uncolored and boxless presentation I’ve heard from a dynamic speaker. The Persona’s were excellent, but I did not hear that top to bottom "there is no speaker there" sensation I get from the Thiels.
But the Persona’s are very promising. I’d really enjoy a chance to hear them in my home, but at this point I think it would be more for curiosity and I would never ask a dealer for a home audition if I weren’t sure enough from the store audition that I may purchase the speaker.
Thank you for the honest feedback on the Paradigms (all too often there is personal bias involved on these sites)
I tried twice to spend time with Persona 9H’s at CES but they had them playing so loud I had to leave the room...like most attendees. Owning Theil 3.7’s must keep you pretty satisfied at home.
The issue with the Persona's and I would add Radiho, and Focals is that these remarkably high resolution loudspeakers do not have as much coloration as many other loudspeakers and so you must be very careful of finding the right matching gear.
In our shop we show the Persona 9H with the fantastic T+A HV Series of electronics and we demo with three different state of the art digital sources.
When we showed them at the New York Audio show we used the T+A reference PDP 3000 which sounded great, however, in our shop we also have the Light Harmonic Davinci and the Aqua Hifi Forumula Dac with a Baestis music server.
The Light Harmonic brings a bit more warmth and life which it should it is a $35k Dac but the point is the system goes from really good sounding to absolutely amazing, The bit of extra midrange magic just adds the right touch of texture and boy the speakers sound is elevated accordingly.
So what we have been preaching is that when you have speakers with this kind of clarity, speed, and lack of colortion you must add some flavoring to the mix or the sound can be too netural which to some listeners is going to be too cool or analytical.
You can see the same kinds of issues with the Magico guy who is going from a Rethem wideband driver to the Magicos in his thread and was first driven out of the room as he is going from a polite top end to a Beryilium tweeter which doesn't hold anything back.
This is the age old battle of resolution vs musicality and those in the easy to get right camp ie Harbeth, Vandersteen, Quads, Rethem, Legacy, Sonus Faber etc vs the high resolution camp Magico, Radiho, Persona etc
Prof there were many people who hated the Thiels I used to sell them because they were too forward for many listeners.
I used a Bat or Preamp with a Vac PA 100/100 with the Thiels and the match made the Thiels come alive with the right amount of tone color hence this is why you love the CJ/Thiel combo.
What was the dealer using with the Personas when you heard them?
I’ve been at this hobby a long time too, I’ve got a good idea of why I like the Thiels ;-)
I know the old Thiel rep for brightess. It was actually hearing the Thiel CS6s on VAC amps, way "back in the day" that got me interested in Thiels and tubes, and the CS6s sounded fabulous on my CJs.
Jim Thiel’s last design, the 3.7, really licked those niggling complaints - not bright, open but incredibly smooth, no more slightly hollow or nasal reductive character to the upper mids (which depended on seating position). The 3.7s are really the fruit of Jim's speaker journey IMO. I tend to prefer tubes for most speakers so I love them combined with my CJs. My pal reviews for a high end mag (I used to do a bit too), and his impression of previous Thiels were "made me want to run out of the room." But he did a 180 on them once he heard my set up, and thinks they completely unfatiguing and easily the best sound I’ve ever achieved.
As I mentioned on the Thiel thread, I’d enjoy hearing the Persona’s hooked up to my CJs, or a similar type of tube amp. I’m sure it would nudge them more towards my own preferences.
That said, I’ve found there is only so far one can go with peripherals like amps etc in terms of altering the sound of a speaker. Most speakers have a voice, or timbral quality of their own, that remains and usually I hear that no matter what’s hooked up on the other end. There’s no speaker I’ve ever owned that I didn’t also like with different amps - e.g. solid state - because of the continuity in a speaker’s presentation. Adding tubes for me is just perfecting the sound, not a large alteration.
So there has to be a "hook" that I hear in the sound of a speaker, a general voice that I get on with, and then I can nudge it this or that way with set up, amp choice. (Blind testing cured me of spending lots of money on cables used as tone controls....).
If you mean accurate as in a speaker that sounds like the real thing then I think the Yamaha NS5000 sets a new reference point.Especially in the midrange.Piano ,voices,strings or anything natural are all the most convincing I have heard from any speaker.And by a fair margin. Not only are they extremely detailed but they are also very musical and organic sounding.Imaging is also right up there with the best I have heard. I used to love the Magico S5 but when I went directly from them to the Yamahas I realised the Yamahas sounded real whereas the Magico just sounded like a speaker-albeit a very good one.
@prof , Thanks for sharing your experience. I know the Anthem electronics and I see them as "good value" but a long way behind the refinement of the absolute best solid state amplifiers (the newest Nagra generation, Constellation Audio, Soulution, CH Precision, Dartzeel or Pass Labs). So I think your opinion could be somehow different had you listened to them with different electronics. But I also agree with your statement "I’ve found there is only so far one can go with peripherals like amps etc in terms of altering the sound of a speaker. "
So, "vive la différence" ... the world would be quite boring if we all agreed :) Enjoy your Thiel’s!
If you really want to hear the flatest and most phase linear speakers ever(im an sound engineer and i dont bs)then try to source&audition a pair of MeyerSound HD1 midfield studio monitors(no longer in production)....but you probably wont like them :) But I do They used to cost in the region of 3000 each Good luck
The Paradigms may be a great candidate for room correction/EQ. The speed and transparency of beryllium is pretty much unmatched short of diamond drivers. But the Persona series do veer a bit farther from neutral in the +/- FR variance based on the public reviews online. With some driver materials you have to worry about rising THD with EQ but its not an concern with a driver material as clean as be.
I’m 45 years old, and have spent the last 20-odd years searching for speaker Nirvana, and finally found it a couple of years ago when I got my first ever Harbeths. They exhibit just a beautifully, perfectly flat EQ from bottom to top, which means they are incredibly relaxing as no frequencies are harshened in any way.
I could only afford the smallest model at the time (P3ESR) which doesn’t go much lower than 75Hz, so a sub is essential. But with the addition of a sub I have * almost * all I want. The only time I find them lacking is with large scale orchestral classical music, due to their small size, but for everything else - rock, jazz, folk, etc, they are perfection. They reproduce acoustic instruments like piano, guitar and voice with extreme accuracy.
Oh, and a major factor for me was how good they sound at neighbour-friendly listening levels. You don’t have to blast them to make them "come to life."
With a bigger budget I would have gone for the M30.2, which will be my next upgrade, but I’m in no rush with the ones I have.
Most often, whichever speaker one selects to be his/her favorite has much to do with the sound coloration they prefer. Some like bass heavy speakers, some like neutral speakers, some like lively, some like musical speakers, etc, etc...The real key is to understand which coloration is the one you prefer.
2psyop340 posts11-26-2017 9:49pmMost often, whichever speaker one selects to be his/her favorite has much to do with the sound coloration they prefer. Some like bass heavy speakers, some like neutral speakers, some like lively, some like musical speakers, etc, etc...The real key is to understand which coloration is the one you prefer.
Totally agree with this statement. Dead on. We all like different flavors. I'm very sensitive to many speakers as they do have a tipped up high end. too many equate that to a more open high end or a larger sound stage etc... and it's not. Many love a more forward mid range and go for those speakers.
I personally like a coherent speaker that isn't as colored as many are. I also need the micro and macro detail that's in recordings as it makes it much more musical.
Accurate to too many means a tipped up high end. Nothing wrong with that if that's what someone wants. Heck, it's all about loving what you listen to and getting in front of your system as much as you possibly can. We all have personal favorites and dealers favorites are the ones they are selling at the moment. Nothing wrong with that as it puts food on their tables. Good dealers will usually have a few lines in all gear that will appeal to everyone.
I've always listened with my own ears and not to what people tell me and that's why I get out as often as I can to audition. I am lucky to have a lot of gear sent to me to audition as it's both fun and I get to hear gear in my own system in my own room. That's THE most important thing and it's nearly impossible now days to get the gear you need into your own room. It used to be much easier when we had more brick and mortar dealers. Thats' why I try to buy new when I can and from dealers (My current system was purchased from 7 different dealers, but put together as a system and not some magazine's buy of the month or great review). Go listen if you can. That said, congrats to OP. Glad you're happy with your purchase. That's all that matters.
In my listening room I currently have B&W 804s, Tekton Double Impacts and Tekton Ulfberhts. I received the Ulfs about a week ago. I loved the B&Ws for years. Tried the DIs on a whim and they sidelined the B&Ws handily. Ordered the Ulfs thinking, as good as the DIs sound, the Ulfs couldn't be $9K better. But I was making a long-term investment and wanted to know I made the right choice. I was wrong. The performance is worth the price delta in my world anyway. I am extremely impressed with them and they aren't even broken-in yet. Two nights ago the wife came into the room to listen with me. Took over the controls and was still listening at 2am. That has never happened. She will occasionally listen to things or listen with me, but I've never had to drag her out of the room before. You'll be selling yourself short if you don't audition the Ulfs. The down-side is, they are physically large speakers.
If it’s accuracy you are looking for in a speaker and you have the room and open space for planars’, the Peter Gunn modified Magnepan MMGi’s are the most accurate speaker I’ve ever heard and they are also the only speaker I’ve ever listen to with zero audible distortion. The only speaker that has come close IMO is the Vandersteen model 7. This opinion is coming from 40 years of dealing with hi end audio equipment and owning over 25 pairs of high end speakers including six name brand horn speakers. These speakers are less than $3,000 and trump other speakers costing $50,000 and up. One of his customers sold his pair of Wilson's after buying the modified Magnepan's.
Check out his website and see what he does to the speakers. I just bought a pair and they are like fine pieces of furniture. However, your amp won’t drive them, you need at least 250 watts a side to make them sing. They take forever to get and the waiting list is a mile long but it’s worth it. Also, looks can be deceiving the bass coming from these speakers are unreal.
However, if you are looking for a wide sound stage, emotional presentation and bass that will move your soul, the Vandersteen Quattro is outstanding.
I believe he already purchased. In reading this thread it's funny since the work accurate means nothing in audio. It's totally different to different people. Some go by measurements, so go by listening, some go by emotion alone. It's the way it should be, but the word accurate just shouldn't be in the vocabulary of audio IMHO.
@ctsooner, I see what you mean but in a recent article about the Magico M6, Jonathan Valin does a pretty good job explaining the differences between the
“musicality-first” and "accuracy-first" inclinations: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/magic-m6/
My view is that you one can use the terms but making the effort of explaining his understanding on a particular term. Accuracy alone is vague as most people think their "truth" is the only one around.
@audioman58 wrote: "Accurate speaker is a broad area . To my taste the new Martin Logan Renaissance Loudspeakers from the powered Dual Bass with 24 bit DSP and room correction from mid Bass on down is the first time I have heard seamless accurate Bass in a Electrostatic Loudspeaker. "
+1, although they most likely do not meet either the OP’s budget, nor room constraints.
I have sold the new ML 11-A Speakers and am totally enamored with my new speaker.after hearing these at a friends for around $8k plus capacitor upgrade which anyone can do with a screwdriver. where it allowed me to Taylor the voicing via capacitor-1 and resistor-1 and that is it or the Voxativ driver. The Pure Audio Project Loudspeaker with optional Voxativ mid-tweeter and series Leonitus crossover .2-15 inch Neodymium woofers per speaker .are the most sonicly natural and accurate speakers i know of and efficient 95dbincluding all of the latest models I have heard . Part of the success key was in part my choice of Capacitor-bypass capacitors, resistor choice. Realism is paramount . If in the area let me know in the Ma- Ct area for a listen.
Have had a pair of Graham Audio LS 5/9 the last few months, must say these speakers are wonderful, think I will keep these for the rest of my audiofile life.
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