Remarkably better sound possible with just 1 system component change?
I could have posted this discussion to a few other categories but chose this one because discussions related to 2 of the 4 components in question belong here.
So it's been ~2.5 yrs since I purchased my current system. I did a lot of research at the time here on audiogon, but no auditioning, and put together a system that sounds very, very good to me.
While I have no complaints, the itch to upgrade has surfaced recently.
I am curious as to whether you guys think it will be possible for me to replace just 1 of my primary 4 components and obtain significantly better sound as a result. The more discernible and obvious the sound improvement, the better obviously. I am not looking for a marginal upgrade - I want dramatically better sound. And I am not looking to replace more than 1 component at this time. I am hoping to get a few ideas/candidates and then may decide to audition some of the recommendations before making a decision. Hopefully some of the upgrade paths are such no-brainers that I may even be able to take a leap of faith without auditioning. Note also that acoustic room treatments are not viable in my current listening location.
My current 4 part system:
1. Lumin D2 - 100% of my listening is streaming via Tidal 2. Mcintosh C2600 preamp 3. Mcintosh MC452 amp 4. Focal Kanta 2 speakers
Cables are Cardas Golden presence RCAs from the Lumin to C2600, Cardas Clear Cygnus XLRs from the C2600 to the MC452, and Kimber 8TC speaker cables to the Kantas.
Soundstaging, dynamics, imaging and overall clarity are all great. I have to say I love the Be tweeters. And the bass is punchy, tight, fast and certainly sufficient for my needs. Vocals and overall sound are warm, liquid smooth and analog-like, just the way I like it. (Forgive me if I've botched some of the characterizations - I'm no expert at this). The only thing I can think of that could use some improvement is the sound quality at lower volume levels, although that is not terribly important to me since most of my listening is in the 90+ Db range. Would be nice, though.
So while I do love the overall sound, surely dramatically better sound can be obtained via a 1 component swap? Budget is ~10k. Or will I need to spend more, or upgrade more than 1 component to achieve the desired result?
If I were you, this is what I will do: 1. Change to Lumin X1 (used one for ~ 8.5-9 K). 2. Get fiber optic ethernet connection, with or without ethernet switch like etheregen (strongly recommended) (< 750 $). 3. Definite yes for room treatment. You can then consider changing speaker cables, ICs and power cords. For cables, you will get tons of suggestions, but to keep under budget, you might have to do some trials. My favorite is Silversmith Fideliums.
I love your system - I have the C2600 and the MC302. My upgrade path will likely be mono blocks- I am interested in the 901s. If you like your sound I would focus on the source or the speakers. Since you enjoy the Focals upgrading the model would be worth a listen. I am currently trying Qobuz versus Tidal. Too early to say it’s more than a marginal difference. The other thought I have is bi-amping with a tube amp. Perhaps the MC1502. Good luck and let us know your experience
Yes, Qobuz sounds better than Tidal, I tried both though don't listen to either - they don't have what I want and the sound quality is not good enough. Suggestion of two subs makes a lot of sense. Still, I would probably try to improve the source first. As for cabling, I am a cable guy and do my best in this respect. And the last thought. If you want dramatic improvement - get rid of everything, one by one, and start building your system anew. In this case, choose speakers first, of course.
From your photo, it looks like your setup violates just about every "best practice" for how to set up a listening room acoustically. Multiple hard reflective surfaces in the most sensitive areas, etc. No amount of gear changes or upgrades will overcome poor acoustics. Best recommendation is to invest some time in any of the many publications available (RH's bible for example) on the do's and don't's of setting up a room for good acoustics.
You may want to consider adding instead of replacing. and With the Be tweeter and with Focal's famous 6.5" mids, I'm sure the vocals are terrific as you mention. However, the Kanta 2 speakers only go down to 35Hz. Not surprising for a pair of 6.5" woofers. You say the bass is 'punchy'. Punchy bass usually means bass you can hear, not feel. A subwoofer may add what you're looking for by providing bass and slam that you can feel, especially at low listening levels. And you'd only need to spend $2,000 - $3,000.
You’ve obviously gotten a lot of suggestions, but I’ll add to the pile.
The two upgrades that made far more impact than I was expecting were adding power regeneration (in my case a PS Audio Power Plant 12) and Isoacoustics Gaia feet to decouple my speakers from the floor. Both were nearly as dramatic as any non-speaker upgrade I’ve done.
Agreed with the other person in the thread who said that given how sensitive your speakers are, a lower-powered tube amp might improve things quite a bit too.
Hi You surely have put together a respectable and good system. And I admire your writing and intelligent use of language! Too many casually toss out difficult to follow diatribes. Surely, a unique and interesting room. Super fun. Although I agree that your listening position would be much better served by moving, at least, the central seats up to create the equilateral triangle required for proper sound staging, imaging and focus. One simple change to help a lot. And, IME, money best spent would be the Podium platforms for the speakers and SRA platforms for, at least, the amp and preamp. Basically, allowing the speakers and components to function as design will be a huge upgrade. Vibration control is a major issue. IME, a $10K speaker with the proper platforms will then sound like $20K ones. And a similar improvement to the components. Changing out components can be very significant but also a bit of a risk. Vibration control is a sure thing. Wishing you the best to more fully enjoy!
I can’t believe it no imbed or imbedding in this post this must be some kind of special occasion.
it is just that i realized that a new " word-concept" is too much for some brain.....Then sometimes for people afraid of a new word i try to keep the concept without using the "word"....
Here is another idea as you stream only. convert your streaming links to fiber. I have not yet but have heard nothing but great reviews on this. Here is a link to look at for the company who is dedicated to this concept. https://www.smallgreencomputer.com
First before you jump into the deep end of component envy. Dump tidal and move over to Qobuz. Many here including myself noticed a drastic upgrade in sound between the two. Some claim tidal has larger library but I have had Qobuz for over a year and experienced only one search that came up empty.
I second, or third, the subwoofer suggestions. It's not just the bass, but the improvement in soundstage (especially depth) and imaging is quite noticeable. One is better than none, and two are better than one.
Well if no room treatments are in order I agree with the suggestion above on getting JBL speakers to let it RIP but I wouldn’t bother with the 4329 go with the S4700 or say to hell with it and go all out with the K2 S9900.
Thank you all for your thoughts so far - keep the ideas coming please. All of you have presented me with a bewildering yet cogent array of first class options to consider - that's for sure.
To aid in the analysis of the myriad options laid out thus far, and to help whittle them down and converge on the optimal game plan, I will be implementing one of the oft cited recommendations this weekend, as illustrated below. I find this helps to achieve a much enhanced clarity of thought, and makes my system sound much, much more expensive and remarkable than it is in actuality. Totally obviates the need for acoustic treatments, upgrades, et al. Perhaps this is the road out of the never ending rabbit hole and which leads to salvation of the wallet and soul for all audiophiles.
@jond - I have a HT system integrated with my HiFi stereo system via an Anthem AVM60 processor. And I will sometimes swap amps to see how different permutations sound..
And when HiFi audio isn’t the overarching objective, I will let ’em all rip in unison, to the point where I occasionally trip the breakers and rattle the foundation..only when the missus ain’t around tho..or during a favorite sporting event..like UFC 257 tomorrow..
And somewhat miraculously, perhaps because the overall space is large, none of my art moves in the least during the audio induced plate tectonics. If that happened, I’d be quick to yank them all off and go with some acoustic treatments..
I know your itch. I’m always scratching. I’ve ended up with three very large systems, with dozens of other speakers and amps in storage. I swap them around every so often. I found equipment is sort of like wine. Many different types to try, different flavors.....all fun.
$10K will get you a very good turntable/cartridge/phono stage/cable and some records, and will sound better in most cases as long as the records were recorded well and the pressings are clean.
Audio nowadays is no more electronic enginering first but acoustical engineering first....
I think that is an accurate statement. It’s not hard to acquire really good gear that works well together these days at all. Streaming in particular makes it a breeze. Audiophiles tend to live in the past and make it all seem much more complicated than it need be these days.
However, getting things to sound best or even good in one’s room is almost always a challenge still and very much worth becoming educated about. Nothing new or different there. That should be about 90% of the battle I would say. Maybe more if you are really on your game. The rest is largely subjective and largely based on always widely-varying personal preferences
Maybe that’s why headphones are so popular? Portable and no room to deal with to boot. You will get some consensus there about which ones are good or not but still little consensus about which are truly the best.
You have a great system as it stands for sure. If you want to stick to one component the I would consider two options in your price range. One option would be changing your server to an innuos Statement. This option really would be like upgrading multiple details: Ethernet reclock. Usb reclock. Quiet server that works perfectly with tidal. Isolated power for each. The other option would be to find the nicest sound application power conditioner you can find (not so easy but with patience...). I found the latest generation sound application (before the current tt-7) to incrementally be the biggest improvement of every upgrade I have made with regards to holographic sound stage and taut bass in particular. Like Millercarbon says every detail counts. These options both would be significant upgrades. All of your other equipment is great and will respond to both tactics! Have fun.
If my understanding of room treatments is correct -- given how much area of a typical room needs treatment -- doing room treatments adequately is not at all cheap. This is not due to snake oil or overpriced panels, etc., but due to the physics of acoustics and the sheer area of wall, ceiling space that needs to be addressed. Remember, the OP is asking for a "remarkable" improvement in sound.
I personally found it very satisfying to see how each step/part was added and noticed an improvement. If I spent my 10k on one thing i would soon want to add another.
Sound treatments are cheap at least i didn't spend much. Helps all elements of sound. Might be difficult in your room.
Clean the room up. Make sure speakers are in right places. If you get some extra room. Subs might work. Duke will sell a pair of subs(not as big as you think) and an amp for 1600. Other crazy high sub prices don't make sense to me.
If you want to sit that far back different speakers may be in order.
@chandybe Ok then let’s go with your balls to the wall lifestyle! The speakers you have do not fit that sort of environment. It seems to me you would really enjoy speakers that deliver a more dynamic, punchy room energizing sound. I would go JBL 4329 (or higher), possibly Klipsch Heritage series. The sense of liveliness and energy would really rock that room and be fun to listen to during a party as well. That kind of change will invigorate your listening experience and add excitement to your music!
Your cabling should all be the same technology for the best performance. You did not mention your power system. Power is the foundation. Depending where you are you may want to consider a power conditioner, but get your self some good power cables. I suspect you will probably forget about the component upgrade. I could be wrong I was wrong once before.
I have a very difficult room since it is over the garage. I have Focal Kanta 3 floor standing speakers and added a Simaudio 680D streamer dac to my system and it made a huge difference in sound clarity and overall sonics. I am using a Anthem Str-Integrated Amp with Arc room correction. I have listened to a lot of the same music on CD as well as Streaming on Tidal Quboz as well as using Roon and found that certain songs are better depending on witch source I use. If you only stream a better Dac and Streamer might help.
For those suggesting wire, interconnect, power cords or AC tweaks -- given his room (he gave us a picture) -- do you think this would result in a 'remarkable' improvement, which is what he's after? Given the room's situation, I cannot see how these would even hold a candle to suggestions involving room acoustics.
Without a doubt powered subwoofers, ideally with room correction. I use a JL Audio F110. You could probably use two of those, or even two F112s in your room and hear a huge improvement. Also room treatments.
Simple, relatively inexpensive...swap out your power cords with good ones. (Stay Under $500) What could you lose? In my system changing power cords to source components was transforming. I couldn't believe the difference. After spending much more on interconnects the power cords were just as transformative or maybe more so. I was shocked. Still don't why they make such a difference.
Never my man - the affliction is terminal and runs deep. I best stop before this thread quickly digresses and devolves into anything but audio related banter..
Unless I missed the following questions I have from the above comments, I'd like to know the following: 1) Are you using dedicated AC circuits and upgraded outlets to power your system? 2) Are you using upgraded power cords? If not I would start there.
Wow guys - didn’t expect an avalanche of responses like this. So much to analyze and consider. This forum is no doubt the greatest one of it’s ilk on earth, replete with knowledgeable folks who are generous with their time and expertise (save for a smattering of trolls, but that comes with the territory I suppose). I also love the respectable and healthy debates and differences of opinion perennially prevalent on this site. There’s no surer path to success than surrounding one’s self with differing perspectives emanating from amicable, smart and experienced folk - that goes for audio related quests and everything else..
Allow me some time to sift through all the responses and revert with my thoughts..
Dali Epicon 6 or 8 speakers, and yes move them closer to your listeningposition, or move your couch forward. The sweet spot appears to beright about where your feet are now. Equilateral triangle.
That room is a hot mess with way to many reflective surfaces and balls ⚽️. Jeez...you sit far to far away, so forget about low level listening. How many speakers are hiding there behind the muck? Do a curtain drop over the left wall, move closer to speakers (2 only) and get an REL sub, which will add dimensionality and space to your soundstage. Get that sports creep under control man.
I would love to hear your system. anywhere near Plainfield, NJ?
Your Focals are 91db sensitivity, there is no way you need that monster SS amp.
My suggestion is to get a tube amp to pair with that tube preamp you have. Maybe 45 wpc enough, others with Focals could say more. Perhaps consider 75 wpc, say McIntosh MC275, or Carver version of that amp.
My Cayin, like Carver's was designed to sound like McIntosh 275, I love my Cayin's sound, fed by McIntosh tube preamp.
If you buy used on eBay ..., buy 'returns accepted'. Love them, sell the SS monster, no love, return it.
Get the matching Cardas Clear Cygnus speaker wire, It has been my direct experience (I own both interconnects and speaker wire), that the Matched Propagation technology from Cardas needs to have both interconnects and speaker wire of the same design to let the listener here what that technology can do. I know because I started with just the interconnects and when I added the speaker wire it was everything Cardas described, more 3D holographic sound with excellent imaging and detail retrieval.
Sounds like a great system. I would add a Audioquest Niagara 5000 or one of the power conditioners. Definitely gave me more umph at lower volume and improved overall dynamics/transients.
You already have excellent components. If you still want to make a significant difference in SQ, for far less than $10K, consider a BACCH4Mac package. It's about $1K for the basic software (and set-up consultation(s)), plus the cost of a Mac (Mini/other) if you don't already have one. This product minimizes/eliminates crosstalk to improve the soundstage/imaging. The effects vary depending on the recording, but on some content can be rather dramatic.
Miller once again proves he is a danger to newbies and everyone else by recommending a $10k spend on snake oil. Not much danger though for this wise OP who sees right through this transparent nonsense.
It is time we all agree $1 spent on passive tweeks can never improve SQ nearly as much as $1 spent on active system components. If at all.
Speakers first upgrade then the amplifier then the preamplifier changing the speakers will make the biggest difference and if you go with a used or vintage pair 10k will get you way more sound than you currently have. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I like your answer, change ALL the equipment.. WOW.. Surely you jest.. No, and don’t call me Shirley.. LOL
Speakermaster... You need to get to 101 in sound reproduction.. the rule of 1/3s. Equipment, acoustics, and grid. There is a tweak portion that overlaps all three.
BUT you can’t leave a full 1/3 of what makes sound OUT of the equation and wonder what is missing.. ADD what it needs not what you want.. makes NO sense..
Add all new equipment. Man oh man.. LOOSE the crap on the walls and fix it right.. Good lord.. Heck treat the walls and hang your STUFF back over the top of it..
Not treat the room? It’s not an option if you want better sound.. You can change the sound, but it will never get better, just change... If that works for you.. Change the record... lot less expensive too..
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