I’ve been very happy and impressed with my Rel T9i
and the T9x is incrementally better. Very musical yet punch with home theater. Hi or Low input.
and the T9x is incrementally better. Very musical yet punch with home theater. Hi or Low input.
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I have two nice systems, both with a pair of REL subs. The older pair are REL Carbon Limiteds, run with Longbow REL wireless. It works great. The wireless allowed me to play with the sub's location until the boom went away. I was stubborn about this, as I just felt that the subs should sit right beside my speakers. Not so. Moving them to the front corners of the room on an angle was the ticket. Now I can't even locate the subs, but when I turn them off (only for demonstration) they are sorely missed. I have never had reliability issues. They improve everything about the music, not just the bass and sub base. So when I did my new system I quickly went for the newer Carbon Specials with their newest Airship wireless. Beautiful subs and easy to set up. They were quickly dialed in and sounded superb. But I had an issue, and it took me a bit to figure it out. My home wifi went down the tubes around the time I installed the new Airship REL wireless. I had an old Apple wifi router, so I replaced it with a newer mesh system (Eero Pro 6). Supposed to be easy and amazing. Did not work well either. Turns out, it was direct competition from the REL Airship, which also uses the 5 Gh band. Contacting REL, Eero and my IT guy, there was no solution. So I returned the Airship wireless and ran Baseline Blue cables which sound great. Fortunately I had the positions dialed in so it was ok. Precision Audio and Video in Chicago was great on the purchase and shipping to Maryland, and support of the wireless issue. Call Albert. My summary: -I love the REL's. Extremely musical and support the soundstage and imaging. -no reliability issues at all -two is much better than one -caution on the new Airship 5ghz wireless -the baseline blue cables are much better than the standard cables -the high level inputs are a must -play with the locations even if it does not seem like the most obvious spot Thanks! Ken |
@james633 , I think you underestimate yourself. Building one of these kits is not that hard. Finishing them nicely with something like Piano Lacquer is not so easy but you can have that done by a pro for reasonable money. I tell people otherwise just to cover the enclosure with black carpet. The JTR woofers are very interesting. It looks like they are using a Dayton reference 18" driver which is excellent. Plywood construction is better than MDF. They are using a smaller sealed enclosure, a lot of power and DSP to force the woofer down lower. It is still a very large subwoofer. It would be impossible for me to fit four of them into the situation I have and with multiple subs a woofer that large is overkill. But using two in a point source system in a room 15 X 25' or larger would be fine if someone did not mind the look. You will also have to weight that enclosure down to keep it from shaking. I would put a granite slab on top of it. Used with digital bass management I would think it would be significantly superior to any Rel, SVS or JL sub. Here is the driver https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-RSS460HO-4-18-Reference-HO-Subwoofer-4-ohm-295-472 |
Get dual carbon specials and thank me later. You won't regret it; they sound INSANE. Or at the least dual 812's from REL. Much like my iphone, everything good is made in China (along with plenty of not-so-good-stuff). JLs are good as well and reach deeper, but not to my liking. No bad choices here...flip a coin...and hope it lands on the REL..lol |
From past experience, it’s not about how big the subwoofers need to to be. I completely understand the larger the sub, the mor air it moves. There is a trade off and it is a negative one. The base is not going to be detailed. It’s about matching the speakers you are using for your 2 channel rig. It needs to have the speed and accuracy as well. It’s easy to forget this. It’s like an elephant trying to keep up with the cheetah, lol. Big is great for movies because most soundtracks are muddy, slow and sloppy. Big subs benefit from that. Music in. A two channel rig doesn’t. I learned that from IASCA Competition in Car Audio decades ago. I applied that in today system and loving the output. Remember make sure the subwoofers complement you system, not drown it. Makes all the world of a difference. |
I've owned JLA, Rel, M&K Martin Logan and others. I've heard SVS, Rhythmik, others. The best combination IME which I currently own are JLA Fathoms with an outboard Jensen high to low output converter. Also, any sub can be difficult to integrate if you don't know how, and without measuring to aid with dialing in, it's nearly impossible to get seamless integration. Then of course, final tuning with your ears. |
Just a thanks to everyone for all their input. I am at this crossroad right now deciding on Rel or JL.for my Monitor Audio pl300ii's. Prior to the 300's, I was using Klipsch Forte's with an SVS sb1000. Now, the SVS just doesn't cut it musically with the 300's. Hence, I'm leaning toward Rel but have heard good things about JL subs as well. So thanks for the read folks, cheers. |
manelus, I hate to be a stick in the mud (ya right) but, speed has nothing to do with it. When a driver can not move fast enough it's high frequency response rolls off. Look at the frequency response of the 18" Dayton I mention above, 20 to 500 Hz. It has no trouble putting out 500 Hz so 80 to 100 Hz is not a problem. Most 12" drivers make it to 1000 Hz without issue. It is usually not speed that cuts the drivers off either but cone breakup. So, then what are you hearing? Transients and detail are being smeared because either the subs were not well match to the main speakers or the amp driving the subwoofer was not able to control it well. Driving big powerful subwoofers is not easy. There is a lot of back EMF. This is a problem we noted way back in the late 70's when subwoofers were a brand new deal. Some amps made great bass others not so much. Basically you need a lot of power (big power supply) and an output stage with extremely low impedance. The class D amps that most of the Subwoofer manufacturers are using usually do an admirable job but IMHO not as good as a big class A/AB amp. But, in a small enclosed space you can't have a big amp that generates a lot of heat. By the way, if vibration affects electronics why are we sticking amplifiers in subwoofers? Just a thought. I prefer passive subwoofers and outboard amplifiers. With outboard digital bass management there is no need to place electronics in the subs. You can then pick the amp you think makes the best bass. As far as matching subs to main speakers is concerned, the vast majority of sub owners are not able to do it correctly because they do not have the tools. Doing it by ear is folly. It's like pinning the tail on the donkey. It is easy to do if you take off the blindfold. Using a measurement mic/program along with digital bass management allows you to dial it in perfectly every time regardless of where you place the subwoofers and boy do you get big smiles when everything is working right. Subwoofers are neither fast nor slow. They are either driven and integrated correctly or they are not. Don't get me started on enclosures. |
I was never interested in adding subs to my 2-channel system. However, I decided to try some REL T5i’s to complement some stand mount speakers I was trying. I was really impressed with how they filled in the low end, improved the soundstage and integral easily. I recently moved and my room is a bit bigger so I decided to try a JL F110 v1, with the goal of likely getting another. I really just moved two weeks ago and just set up the JL and haven’t dialed it in at all. It obviously goes deeper than the T5i’s but other than that it is too hard to tell yet if I like it more. I’ll report back as I dial it in more. I’m still just dialing in the whole system so it might be a few weeks. |
mijostyn5,059 postsSome of the information I agree with you but when it comes to speed and accuracy with the subwoofers, I don’t. It has to do with time alignment with the speaker of choice. You want everything to be in tune, exactly how it is produced. If the sub is ported, it doesn’t require as much power as a sealed subwoofer. If it is a push-pull subwoofer with 2 active or 1 active and 1 passive, it reacts a bit faster and requires less power. I will agree from experience that a class A/B amplifier subwoofer sounds a little better but that does depend on the build. JL, REL, M & K, etc have been in the game a long time and have mastered the Class D amplification. JL started in the car world and now dabs in both home and auto. The subwoofer that’s in the Fathom subs which are my favorite are W7 10”, 12”, & 13”. During the time when a JL representative was on a video chat at HIFI Buy I asked if they have considered utilizing their W7 8” in a single or dual for their Fathom or their Gotham. He answered that it wouldn’t be cost effective to build but he does understand the want for it. The 8” W7 is their best seller in the car audio world. I’m not a fan of Bose but think about how they figured it out utilizing 5” subwoofers. The cabinet design also plays a huge part. |
I have had 2 JL Audio F112 v1 for a long time now, they are pair with Wilson Sophia v1, I use a Trinnov AL16 to do bass management, they are brilliant and build quality is tops. I have used them with multiple setups, tube and SS preamps. If you take the time to do the setup with location and built in room correction, they are solid addition to any setup. |
I think that they are on the same level. It depends on how you want to Intergrade your system. I just trust JL Audio and being an American company, in-expensive and easy for them to repair. Honestly you couldn’t go wrong with either. Also the look for me matters as well. Both companies make exquisite pieces of gear. |
mijostyn, thanks for the opinion. If my JL subs fail for the 3rd time I might give JTR a try. As for DIY just not for me. As an engineer for 20 years I sure I could figure it out (I dabbled in a lot of tech over the years in industry), but it just does not interest me. I want things as plug and play as possible. Creating things, tweaking software, etc just seems like work to me these days. But I really respect the big DIY setups, very cool for sure. I have also remodeled two houses from the studs up and I just want to listen to music these days. No more construction, electrical, plumbing, no more projects for me. |
missioncoonery “Seems like the people with the high end loudspeakers are using JL AUDIO. Is REL Midfi?......are you for real?...” Don’t you know if your cables are not 3 months salary you have a mid-fi system lol. I find much of the discussion here to be total nonsense and relate a lot to psychoacoustics I bought a pair of revel and in the process of researching opinions I ran across a number of articles on Revel’s blind testing and found it fascinating. This recent video is good. Get better toward the end. https://youtu.be/xEZkz4Li-0M Anyway back on topic. It does not matter whether you go JL or Rel it is all about integrating it well. You need a highpass and you should measure your room or you will spend a long time dialing it in. Subs are super important these days as speaker prices are getting crazy and bass is very important. Even the newest crop of mid sized speakers (Sopra 2/3, Wilson Sabrina X, Olympica III, Revel 228be etc, 803d3) have no deep bass. They rely on room gain and that never sounds a good as a proper sub or very large speaker. |
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I have two B&W DB4S subs and I love them. 1000w and 8.5Hz at -6db. Terrific for music and movies where you feel as well hear the sounds. No worries with integration. FOR Great sound Easy to position Superb calibration controls AGAINST Requires phone & app Limited Android support Wrong side of the Atlantic LOL |
adsell I have had 2 JL Audio F112 v1 for a long time now, they are pair with Wilson Sophia v1, I use a Trinnov AL16 to do bass management, they are brilliant and build quality is tops. I have used them with multiple setups, tube and SS preamps. If you take the time to do the setup with location and built in room correction, they are solid addition to any setup.adsell, my experience with an F113 A.R.O. was quite similar. The cabinet and amplifier/driver are extremely robust but the internal test tone, single peak auto only room optimization was very limiting. With optimized placement and detailed manual parameter adjustments the 13" F series sub was every bit as potent as the 18" model it was compared with. The majority of onboard Hi-Fi subwoofer processing has advanced very little in the past fifteen years and judging by the brand loyalty customer experience has stymied. jeffvegas, does your name imply you reside near the Silver and Black Nation? |
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@james633 , With either the Anthem STR or Trinnov Amethyst all you have to do to completely integrate the subs is put the subs wherever you want them, set up the microphone at your listening position, tell the unit what crossover you want and tap the button. The units will ping each speaker in succession, calculate correction curves, crossovers and delays and plug them in automatically. Takes a quiet house and 15 minutes. This is a whole lot more like plug and play than crawling around the room trying to figure out what the right position for your subwoofers is. You will never be able to achieve this level of performance manually. I tried for 20 years and even though I thought I had it figured out the first cut I played after hooking up my old TacT 2.2x (Red Hot Chilli Peppers) totally blew me away. decathalon1991, You have a fine system. I believe you are using the CR 1 crossover? While greatly superior to the low pass filter found in the vast majority of commercial subwoofers it is not near state of the art. I am also intimately familiar with the Fathom f113 and JL's drivers. I considered using them at one time, specifically the 13W7. I decided not to use it because it overs no advantage over Dayton's Ultimax drivers in home installations and I am not inclined to pay extra for cosmetics. The system I am currently working on uses 8 12" drivers. At any rate digital bass management is far superior to anything you can do in the analog world. Distortion levels are orders of magnitude lower and you can delay the signal to various speakers as needed to time aligning the whole affair. It is close to impossible to do this by analog means. You have a fine system. Please, look into the Trinnov Amethyst preamplifier. It will push your system to a whole new level. Trinnov is a French company that makes commercial systems for theaters and studios. They currently make the best audio and theater processors and that is not IMHO. I have no interest in Trinnov other than I plan to replace my aging 2.2X with an Amethyst in the near future. I probably will not use it's phono stage but everything else is top notch. As for the efficiency of subwoofers, this is a real wild card. It depends on where you put them and how much correction they require. The beauty of digital correction is that you can get away with a much smaller enclosure as long as you have the power to do it. Adding a port or passive radiator does not necessarily make a sub more efficient. The sub will go lower before rolling off but when it rolls off it does so twice as fast making it more difficult to correct if you just happen to want to go lower. With correction like you have in your Fathom it is best to use a sealed enclosure. If done right you can push it lower with less power and avoid issues like port noise and passive radiators bottoming out. Take a strobe to any passive radiator and watch what it does! The only commercially made subwoofers I would buy are made by Magico. They are using what is called a balanced force design. This involves putting two drivers at opposite ends of a symmetrical enclosure. The drivers operate in phase so their reactive energy cancels out and the enclosure remains stationary instead of shaking. Turn the volume up and put your hand on your subwoofer. Any vibration or shaking you feel equals distortion, a lot of distortion. Countering this requires a very stiff, heavy enclosure with a balanced force layout. This is also the main advantage of a down firing subwoofer. The driver is trapped between the floor and the weight of the enclosure. The main problem with this is how stiff the floor is. |
Interesting to hear from people who’ve used both brands. I used an f110 v1 for years in a couple of different rooms and systems and am now using two T7is in a large open living room with Magnepan 1.7s. As has already been said, it comes down to your personal taste and situation. Both companies make good products. For me, the setup approach of the RELs was easier, faster, and worked better. For me, things like differences in sub amplifier power or bottom-end limit didn’t matter nearly as much as how easily and how well they could be integrated with my room (including visually) and system. But whatever works for you, go for it. |
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B&W or Bowers and Wilkins, whatever they call themselves today makes fine loudspeakers found at Best buy. I've failed to see Wilson, Magico, Marten, Estelon, or MBL there for sale. Inside the Bowers & Wilkins factory to see the new 800 D4 speakers |
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The first subwoofer I had in my van was a top of the line JL. It was one of the first ones with a dual voice coil. It was a beast. I could run it as hard as I wanted and it took it all. When that one eventually died I replaced it with a Dynaudio driver in the same box, same amp, same everything basically. I blew it up within a week. Luckily the dealer thought it was a dud so I got a replacement under warranty. Somehow though, I knew I had just driven it too hard so I ended up changing the power output of the amp to keep it alive. Even though the JL was much more powerful and more fun if I wanted to play loud, the Dynaudio was by far the best sounding sub. There was no contest really, the difference was huge. The JL made low frequency noise, the Dynaudio played low frequency music. there was detail with the Dyn's that the JL's had never even hinted at. I put that to the way the drivers work. JL drivers need a lot more power to get going, the Dynaudio moves much easier. That makes it move quicker, hence it keeps up better with the rest of the drivers. JL's boxes are generally smaller and their amps more powerful that REL's. I assume REL subs don't need the power because their drivers are easier to drive and because their boxes are larger they also need less power overall to reach the same SPL. That equates to less movement of the driver for the same output. That can only be a good thing. Hence, on the above, I would go for REL out of the two but when I'm ready to buy subs, I'll put my money to Dynaudio subs. I might need twice as many to get the same SPL but they're much cheaper too so the overall outlay will be the same. |
