I used PCs for a bit, Mac and Windows. You can achieve good sound. A software program such as Audirvana Plus really helps, because it attempts to shut down the rest of the computer and leave music playing part, as well as providing a GUI to manage your music.
Otoh--it can be a pain switching out of Audirvana Plus when you need to use the computer for non music functions. Frequently I had to reboot several times, which is annoying when you have a task that you have to perform.
If your present computer is still breathing, you may want to use it exclusively as a music server until it croaks, and use the new computer for everything else. However, if I understand the OP, he or she needs a DAC. I would just buy a DAC/Streamer for a few hundred bucks more and get an inexpensive PC. Computers are designed to be obsolete in a few years, and you might have issues with Mac or Windows updates suddenly bricking your PC, then there goes your server. A dedicated streamer is probably more durable and less likely to meet that kind of fate
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Why would you want to use a computer to control your music?
Too bulky.
Just buy a streamer and control it with your phone.
Much smarter.
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If you search, i have posted pages of posts on making digital good - its more than buying box(es).
You'll need both a server and a DAC. What have you tried? what are your sound objectives?
You say "no Roon". Roon actually would be a srong suggestion of mine. It wouldbe good to knwo your objection: price i presume? Certainyl not sound ( if done right).
I personally run Roon, on a dedicated server with a DIY LPS, to a raspberry Pi bridge with TWO DIY LPSes (one for the "dirty" RPi and one for the "clean USB I/F, isolated). And into a DAC which cna generate tons of sunsubsantiated suggestions :-) I have several - some ancient to whcih i have added USB and clocking, two new, mid priced, and punch way above their weight IMO.
You comment re: Spotify tells me sound may not be that high a priority. There are so many better services out there. Like witgh cooking, you cannt make the best disjh from poor ingredients - and compressed music locks in mediocirty regardless of how much you spend later.
Honestly, read up ont he chain. Hans B is a good resource.
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@high-amp Can you share your current system, room, etc.? Is it the one represented by the photo on your system page? Thanks.
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Building a good streaming system with a computor can be done easly. Dont listen to the negative people who claim to her " noise " in the electrical wire because the power company uses a bad resistor 20 miles down stream. The first thing to consider is to have the best internet connection coming into the computer this should be done with a cat7 hard wire dont use wifi. Next is a good signal path to an external dac of your choice ( the dac option is unlimited). I use my mac book pro as my qobuz source and it sounds great. Look at this company for help to get the best signal into your computer.
https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/
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For Qobuz or Tidal: Any Mac with Audirvana music sofware: This puts the music playback in hog mode which prevents the computer from doing things in the background which creates a lot of noise. It will automatically recognize and playback DSD files and or hi rez pcm: Plus, you can use it to up convert cd files to DSD or PCM. If you prefer Apple music, you can use Amarra SQ+ with Airplay but that only supports cd quality, for Hi rez Apple music you would need a direct connection to the DAC via USB. I used Bit Perfect for a time but it was buggy and at the time didn't support gapless playback. I have not used it in years so it might be better now.
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I run Qobuz using an ASUS ROG (Republic of Gamers) laptop using Windows 7. I connect the laptop to my PS Audio PerfectWave MkII DAC with a regular (not expensive) USB cable. I also have a PS Audio PerfectWave Transport (I have several thousand CDs). The core of my system consists of Krell preamp an amp plus a pair of Thiel CS6 speakers.
I have compared at least a dozen CDs with their corresponding Qobuz stream to determine the difference in sound quality. I've been careful to make sure that the CD and the streaming file are the same version. In all cases the stream sounds virtually identical to the CD. Sometimes I think I can hear a very slight difference but in practical terms they are the same. I seriously doubt if I could tell them apart in a blind test. Just for the record, I've ripped my CD collection and I've also compared ripped files played through the PC using Foobar to their respective CDs and the Qobuz streams. They sound essentially identical.
One reason for this may be that the PSA PW MKII fully buffers and reclocks the incoming data. This step should eliminate any noise or other nastiness from the sound.
This result was a surprise to me. I figured that I would surely get a high quality streamer but now I'm taking my time. I'm probably going to spring for a Node but it will be mostly for the operating system and convenience.
If you don't have a CD player then it will be difficult to judge the sound quality of whatever you do. I firmly believe that in order to judge the sound of new components you need a control. Using a CD player as a control will help you to figure out if a streamer really sounds that much better than a computer. I honestly believe that we all hear amazing things when we spend thousands of dollars on a new piece of gear but often with careful controlled comparison those "blew me away" differences become very minor.
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@perkri Totally agree...took the same path and am HAPPY!
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rbstehno - "If you are using usb to the dac, you will never get the best performance"
Then why does EJ at Wyred 4 Sound recommend that as the only method to connect to his DAC (i2s with his server)?
asvjerry - Cool, thanks!
wsrrsw & ghdprentice - what DAC/Steamer combos are you using?
elangley01 - "LMS Qobuz plugin" Can you elaborate, maybe a link?
mahler123 - all good points, thx
vanson1- I’m learning, thank you
itsjustme - "What have you tried?" Macbook Pro with Bit Perfect with a Schiit Bifrost, a Primare DAC 30 and W4S 2v2 SE, after the Mac I tried a W4S Music Server with the W4S DAC, then finally a Roon Nucleus with the W4S DAC before losing my job (Covid shutdown) and selling the works.
"What are your sound objectives? - To listen to high-quality digitally reproduced music on a mid-fi 2 - channel stereo.
"You say "no Roon".- Roon is awesome, great format but yes, but another box in the system and I really don’t want to pay for both Roon and a streaming service as well. I am really waiting for Spotify to start streaming 1,411 Kbps, until then Tidal or Quboz will do.
david_ten - my system page shows what’s holding me over whilst I rebuild!
Past system was Coda CSiB V1, Martin Lagan Spires, W4S DAC, Roon Nucleus, OPPO BDP 93 for CD’s. I would revisit ML speakers again but I don’t have room to pull the speakers 3" out from the walls.
The system I am working on now (I think) I will be going with KEF R11s. They only need 9" off the back wall and 20" off the sidewall. If I could find something that sounds good, I would like to be even closer to the sidewall. Amp is a Luxman 507uXII. Still need DAC and streamer, hence the thread.
Lots of conflicting opinions on this subject, but the general consensus seems to be to go with a music server. Maybe I will start a new thread on this?
Thanks to you all!
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Aurender for high quality streamers. They have them at all price points. The Auralic Aries G2 gets good reviews, I owned one, Aurender sound better to me.
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@high-amp Thanks for answering my question.
Many ways to go about what you are trying to achieve. Other posters have offered you valuable advice.
If you are truly trying to keep it simple, while rebuilding your finances, home, room, etc. an extra phone or tablet is a great solution. Depending on the OS, using an app or additional software to maximize sound quality (via this route) will deliver good results; even more so if you also focus on the quality of the cabling and using intermediate devices to ~clean~ things up.
Since you seem to be open to a DAC...
AND are keeping your budget reasonable...
AND are open to a ~multi~ function device...
AND since it hasn't been mentioned...>>>
Take a hard look at offerings from iFi Audio. High scores on performance to value, on overall flexibility, portability, and broad feature sets.
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ghdprentice Thanks, I’m aware of these products and will research them further.
avid_ten - Great advice. I have heard great things about the Ifi Zen Stream. Thanks so much!
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A MBP with bitperfect is a decent source sonically. depending on the program you use to catalog and stream it can be weak or strong, but you want streaming anyway. I'm not sure how good/bad the native streaming clients are - warning I have seen some that are different animals on their own, and vastly btter in, say Roon.
The bifront multibit is decent. No more IMO. But you did say, honstly, mid-fi. At what, $700 its ok but there are much better. The non-multibit is weaker IMO.
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itsjustme - $700 it's ok but there are much better"
Suggestions, please?
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Hello high-amp. I've been using a computer as a music source for over 24 years. If it's good enough for the Library of Congress to archive historically important music, it's good enough for me. I record live perfprmances at both 44/16 and 96/24 and edit using Wave Pad (highly recommended), and another program that lets you edit one channel at a time. Spotify and Amazon put low level "ticks" into the music to prevent persons from selling their recordings. It is audible on good systems. Very annoying! Many YouTube offerings are of high quality and generally do not have "ticks." What are these "streamers" anyway? Special purpose computers, of course. As for computer noise, some are noisier than others. Inside the cabinet sound cards tend to be noisier that others. Take a pair of sensitive headphones with you to the computer store and plug them into an attractive unit. Take a thumb drive with low level tunes of high quality on it (girl singers w/guitar, chamber music). Play the music using the computer's own software. Move the cursor around as the music plays. Do you hear any odd noises? Pause the music and turn up the volume. Wiggle the cursor around. Hear anything? if not, good!
Media Monkey software is available in a free version and sounds good to me. I use a desktop computer I assembled (easy), and a laptop with an external DAC running off the USB out on the computer. I edit and produce CDs and files of all sorts of music and it all sounds fine. These multi-thousand dollar streaming boxes seem unnecessary to me and cannot give you anything better than the files they download. You don't need them. Enjoy!
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There are going to be people like boomerbillone everywhere. Not everyone is going to be chasing the best music server and for him, a general purpose computer is more than good enough.
That being said, if your system has the resolution, you will be able to notice significant differences between computer / music server and power supplies. I built my own general use computer for my office computer / audio system because I need a "general purpose computer". I play music, do a lot of gaming, youtube videos, photo editing and work on my system. Currently, I’m running a stock Pink Faun S/PDIF PCI audio card on an AMD processor motherboard (with multiple sets of mirrored SSD drives and video card). It uses AES/EBU cable to connect to a higly modified LKS MH-DA004 dac. I can definitely hear differences in sound between powering the Pink Faun card using the internal computer switching power supply and an external Farad Super3 linear power supply. With the computer switching power supply, you can hear a lot of distortion and noise in the audio signal and the sound just does not have as much "oomph" and resolution when compared to the external Farad Super 3. The Pink Faun card is awsome becuase you can upgrade it with a high end OCXO clock, but it is definitely expensive.
Now you can take this further and compare my computer with a dedicated high end music streamer/server, such as the Aurender or Auralic models. I have not done this, but I suspect that the Aurender/Auralic could very well sound better than my computer. They have fully linear power supplies with hardware that is selected and designed specifically for only doing music streamer/server duties. They are NOT a "general use computer". You don’t have to have 32GB of ram with expensive 10-core cpu and hard drives with video card to be able to do what a music server does.
There have been people who have been very succesful in building a music server from a computer platform They generally have fanless cases and cpu heatsinks with linear power supplies such as HDPlex. You are not going to get a super processing computer because the linear power supplies pretty much max out at about 500 watts. If you need to do gaming and processing, web browsing, business, then a general purpose computer may be what you need.
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Wow, auxinput, all that computer stuff is a little bit over my head so maybe I better just stick with the music server solution, but thanks for all that.,,very interesting indeed!
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Yes, that's another good reason to buy a server. I was an IT executive... so I was good fiddling around with computers... or if I had a real technical issue, I would call one of my tech guys to fix it. It is pretty easy to set everything up, then find out a switch somewhere wasn't thrown and you were limiting you output resolution.
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An older windows laptop and a good dac are a great choice for folks with lots of music on hard drives. Use Foobar2000 and the related Foobar2000 remote control for smart phones and it is super convenient. Set up Windows sharing across your home network and you can also use Plex if you wish though I don't like it as much since it doesn't allow selecting WASABI or ASIO to by pass Windows audion settings.
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in place of Moon, you might want to consider Hegel integrated amps. I use a Mac and Audirvana. When Audirvana works, the sound is divine.
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I’ve streamed airplay (via Mac mini) to a Hegel h590 and found it to be superb. It also works with quobuz, Audirvāna, Roon. The Hegel HD 30 DAC works as a streamer and DAC with volume control and digital preamp. The simplicity is amazing.
most of my music is legacy cd, streamed from a synology server in my office.
I didn't see enough of a difference with high bit rate quobuz audio to pay every month.
there is also a challenge with playlists. Most can't import them. And if you choose to move on to another service, your playlists don't come with you!
as such, I still value Apple Music (iTunes) for the metadata capability.
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Call Andrew Gillis at Small Green Computer.
He told care of this old timer who didn't know squat about setting up streaming. A great experience and great products.
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@high-amp
You can see two of my systems if you click on my ID. If your budget I'd ~$5K then I recommend a Aurender N100 streamer and a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC. I use a Aurender W20SE streamer and Audio Research CD9se DAC. On my headphone system I use an Aurender N100 streamer and a Ayre QB-9 2020 DAC.
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I bailed on this issue years ago by getting a series of good SPDIF converters, then recently a DDC. The USB cable goes into the SPDIF converter and outputs digital (up to 24/192) via coax cable to the DAC.
It’s not perfect, but especially w/the DDC in place, any noise from the big desktop computer is less of a concern.
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Great thread! I am learning lots! Getty too many to thank individually, so thanks to you all!
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I just want to add another option. Start with a Raspberry Pi as a streamer and use this for a few months or a year. Then you can upgrade to something better. You may be able to try another streamer in your home and compare them. I have a RPi with a s/pdif card and it works great. I might upgrade later but have to upgrade the dac and speakers first. This solution may be had for around $120.
I also use the Volumio software (including their $3.5/month subscription) which let's me use the Tidal app on my phone to control what to listen to.
RPi requires some technical knowledge and tinkering. If you don't feel this is for you there are pre - built solutions available for about $500.
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itsjustme - $700 it’s ok but there are much better"
Suggestions, please?
OK, but remember that things are personal, i have not heard everything etc. I really try to avoid the superficial "buy this i like it". Using that logic we can deduce from this thread that aPC is both perfect and laughably bad. :-)
All that said, I’d listen to are the Denefrips Ares and -- if you can put up with a "kit car" and nonexistent customer service -- the Allo Revolution DAC with the USBridge and their Shanti linear Power supply. The shanti both measures and sounds suprisingly good.
People also seem to like the Chord. I find it somewhat analytical which is not great for poor recordings/masterings of whcih there are many right in my sweet spot of superb classic rock....
I have heard many, many $2-4k DACs that are far worse. Listen! Spend some time and effort and get something you really enjoy. And spend more time on getting the basic right than listening to "this is awesome and that sucks". generally both are wrong, at least IME.
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itsjustme - Thanks for all the info!
The rest...you are the best!
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BTW, if you choose the Allo, its based on the ESS 9038 chip and therefore has transparent (no truncation errors) digital volume control. No balance, but voluem contorl. For an all-digital system that has real advantages both in signal chain integrity and money
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high amp there are no options in the evo line
standard model $3500.00
high End model $5,500.00
Aeon model $7500.00
the Master $16,000.00
and with an Evo you can start wiith a standard
and up-grade it to any of the better sounding models
Dace and Troy
Audio Intellect NJ
us importers 432Evo music servers
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audiotroy - Is the EVO a DAC as well?
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Usb to dac to hifi is all that is needed to test the waters initially. Cheap and easy just try it and see. I recommend a longer usb wire to keep noisy computer at a safe distance from hifi gear. Cost a few dollars on Amazon.
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After so many appalled responses to your suggestion of using a computer, I will have to consider my system as unworthy until I get a dedicated streamer! But to your initial question, I have loved the sound of my macbook playing hires files from the hard drive or streaming TIDAL. I use a Schiit Modi Multibit DAC into a Schiit Freya, a Marantz 8B and Totem Rainmakers+REL3. Adding a USB DAC years back was a very noticeable upgrade from a headphone out to RCA, but my Dragonfly phone DAC was also a nice (cheap) upgrade. Since you're just keeping costs low for now, I'd say enjoy the music through whatever you can afford! I find so much variation in recordings, that sound quality varies with any gear. And now I can go researching all the streamers...
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Buy yoursellf a nice computer. Reserve $550 of your budget to get yourself a Bluesound Node streamer besides it.
I have a fanless no noise PC that I used for streaming. Works OK. Still I bought a Bluesound Node next to it. Great sound and great ease of operation.
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Haveing read and re-read the OP and many susequent posts, i admit its a little confusing. But my read is OP is not unaware of computer/DAC methods and has tried some. Heck, if he's tried Roon he's way beyond ("you can use a PC as a source").
But the key question was 'are they too noisy?"
I saw a few answers that i simply have to correct. First., yes ccomputers are noisy ask anyone who has tried to lay ou a PC circuit board or design an embedded system. The osciallators, chips and SMPSs all conribute to a lot of electtrical noise.
But inthe end, what do you think is behind that fancy faceplate with the 4 gold-plate machine screws and the engraved logo? very likely a Raspberry Pi, likly in embedded form, or something similar. Maybe a full- blown intel NUC or similar, like in a Nucleus. It MUST be a computer, the onyl question is "what efforts did they take to reduce noise?". Multipl power supplies, some linear; ground and power isolation; convection cooling, and nosie filters are all part of the game.
Youcna buy it or build it or make simple accomodations to minimize it. I suggesteed some methods of separating the sournce (noisy) fromt he DAC (must be clean, accept the point folks, the "digital" signal into a DAC is quasi-analog, with the magnitude digitally coded and the x-position semi analog. Its a cartesian system.. period.
So use ethernet (not wifi please) to a bridge (raspberry pi) and the problem mostyl disappears, IF you isolate the Pi's USB output with its own power - whcih might even be possible backward-powering it from the DAC.
When i began my jorney i sent SPDIF (issues!) to a vruy good DAC from the day. When i ripped everythign ALAC to my MacBookPro and played it back with itunes and bitperfect, over USB, it was ALWAYS better. Maybe not much, but better. So the idea that compuetrs cannot be used is simply false not only thoeretically btu in a crazy-resolvign system. I always test with a panel, even if its a drunk panel.
Note: the MacBookPro sounded best on battery power. Teh adapter added not onyl some potential hum (AC and ground noise) but deteriorated the sond - mostly the "black areas" (inter transient silence or decay). So that's antoher data point that power and isolation matter.
In thoery a really god DAC with it sown power and USB isolation renders all this moot. I hoep if done right that's true, and I'm heading down that path. But so far I'll note that small contributions remain that i cannot explain. yet.
So take those points as input. I still think Roon, for all is fauls and costs, has some real advantages not only as a multi-room and point of integration, but sonically (MQA unfold 1, DSP, excellent protocol, contorl ovr timing....)
G
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No high amp these are just servers you need a dac
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By the way we have tested a dedicated server vs a pc o. Many dacs the servers all outperformed pcs
To date we hve tested sotm c omputer
Mac minis auralic innous baetis laufertechnik 432evo
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itsjustme - Having read and re-read your many susequent posts I find you are at another level, far above my undersatnding of computers. When I was using my MacBook Air via USB to DAC I thought it sounded great.
I also thoroughly enjoyed using my Roon Nucleus (as a music server) to DAC via USB as well.
It is others that suggest computers are "Noisy" so I was looking for others opinions on the mater.
I just thought if I could remove one more box out of the audio loop (Roon Nucleus/Music Server) by hooking up my computer when I wanted to stream music. Along with that, avoid paying two mothly subscription, one for Roon and another for a music service.
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itsjustme correct, all servers are essentially optimized computers, the optimization is the critical difference between them. I consider actual computer diy solution, off the shelf server already done for you.
Its also correct that much of the noise upstream of dac can be eliminated by various means. Optical conversion of ethernet is one good way, do this just prior to dac or various usb renderers.
Network optimization pays great dividends. In the end, many paths to great streaming sound quality.
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Also, if you're if your choice comes down to non-optimized computer vs. server, get the server. I progressed from stock Windows and Mac computers to somewhat modded mac mini, then present extremely moded mac mini. No comparison, even the first modded mini was far superior to stock computer. Anyone using stock computer as server is missing much of the potential of streaming.
Again, diy modding of computer requires skills many may not possess.
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sns - thanks for that.
At the end of the day, I may just end up with a Roon Nucleus (optimized computer) as a music server (USB to DAC) again. Although I didn’t like the added expense of Roon, it was easy pezzy, offers a great format and sounded awesome!
Times on my side at the moment so, sooner or later I’ll figure it out (with a lot of help from you all!) :-)
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If you deciede on the Roon Nucleus, get a linear power supply for it. I would recommend the Keces P8 at this point because the Roon can draw up to 65 watts (3.5A). The P8 has a large enough power supply to keep up with this draw. I do not recommend Farad or the Teddy Pardo "TeddyNuc" power supply. The problem with Teddy Pardo is that it's a dual regulated design. The power flows through two bipolar transistors and creates a LOT of heat with high current draw. The case ends up getting burning HOT. Also, he uses heat pads between the transistors and case instead of mating the transistor directly with metal. This helps in easy manufacturing, but heat transfer is poor.
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auxinput - very helpful, I will heed your advive!
Thanks
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auxinput - the only piece of gear I have left after the great sell-off is a 100W HDPlex linear power supply, which I bought second-hand.
It has 4 taps: 5V, 12V, 19V (using for my old Nucleus), and a variable outlet.
It never got hot when I was using all the outputs at once, but it is rather old, so maybe I should be upgrading it?
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@high-amp It would be very helpful if you clarify (read: lock in) your choice of path. It has wavered since your original post.
Members will be able to help you with better recommendations and approaches, once you clarify and select the path.
Re. the original (100W??) HDPlex: it's a good starting point. The Keces P8 is at another level.
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