Ready For Digital Source...Computer?
auxinput - OK Dr. DAC, thank you for all the detailed and informative advice! With that, I have been in contact with Young at SHENZHENAUDIO. He says he will honor his Black Friday pricing on a L.K.S Audio MH-DA005 until I have finished the remodel on my house. All the best to you and your family over the holiday season, thanks so much again!
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First thing to realize is that RME is a big name in the pro audio industry (recording studios, etc.). The price of RME components is significantly higher than other pro audio components. So you are already paying more for the RME than you would for comparable items. Second, the RME has additional features for audio analysis and DSP audio EQ. So you are paying for that as well. If you need a DAC that has DSP EQ, then it's definitely an option. There is one youtube video where the guy says the Topping D90 sounds cleaner/better than the RME ADI-2 DAC. At $764, it's significantly less than the RME. The Topping D90 may be a good option if your budget is really low at the $700-800 level, but realize that the D90 has an internal switching power supply. No way to upgrade to linear power supply here.
ok, so let's talk about Gustard X22. The Gustard X22 is like a "half-version" of the LKS 005. Good power supplies, dual ESS chips in high current mode. However, it uses bunches of op amps for both I/V and output stages. Plus you have Nichicon Gold Tune for main power supply capacitors. Is the sound good? Yeah, but you are not going to have the greatest transparency or high frequency "air" in your music. Even the Topping D90 is more transparent with more "air" than the gustard. I would actually get the D90 over the Gustard at this point (my personal opinion). The Topping D90 is great if you really only at that $800 level, but you're kind of stuck there at that point. There is no where to go, no way for improvements. |
A couple of final contenders: https://aoshida-audio.com/products/gustard-dac-x26-pro?DIST=Q0U%3D Or the least expensive (yyzsantabarbara raves about): https://apos.audio/products/topping-d90se-dac
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Touché auxinput
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I really hate comments like this because everyone has them. Just watch now for people coming out of their nooks and crannies and saying "this DAC is the absolute best" just because it's the dac they have. I generally try to tell people what kind of sound a certain piece of equipment or combination will make instead of saying "this dac is better than this other dac". I would love for people to do the same here. In what ways does the Bel Canto 2.7 sound --different-- than the BP and Ferot dacs? What does it bring to the table? What does it take away? lol. This will help people much more than just saying "this dac smokes xxx". As far as the Bel Canto 2.7, it doesn't look really impressive internally. A rather small transformor and power supply with op amps littered all over the I/V and output stage. Because of the linear power supply, this dac may sound better than the stock Ferot. But I bet the Ferot with linear power supply would beat the Bel :Canto. As far as Border Patrol vs Bel Canto, I think it is a difference in sonic signature. jerryg123 might like the resolution of the Bel Canto much better than the organic (slightly messy) character of the Border Patrol. Does that mean Bel Canto smokes Border Patrol??? It's up to the listener and what they are looking for.
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auxinput - Thanks for your long & detailed response. I think
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Ah, one thing that the Merason POW1 linear power supply has that all other generic external linear power supplies do not are 3 different power supplies internally. The POW1 connection cable is actually a special 5-pin DIN cable. It has power supplies for digital section (probably 5V), and two separate rails for I/V analog section (this is something like a +15V line and a -15V line, but it could be any voltage). The important part is the analog section works better with a + and a - voltage power supply line.
Most DACs that have internal linear power supplies (like the LKS 005) do have multiple power supplies. My LKS 004 dac actually has 6 separate power supplies internally (2 for analog I/V, 3 for digital, 1 for controller and front panel). The LKS 005 most likely has 6 power supplies as well (it follows Musetec approach). |
Okay. I looked it over. Yes, I think the Ferot can definitely be a budget level DAC that sounds really good. Here is why. The Ferot uses an old schoool Burr-Brown 1794 DAC chip. It is extremely easy to engineer a DAC that sounds good with these chips. When using these chips, the DAC normally has two different TCXO clocks for the two primary audio sampling rate multipliers (i.e. 44.1/88.2/172.4 vs 48/96/192). The 1794 dac chip is very forgiving and you don’t have to focus a lot on power supply and I/V stages too much. The 1794 is a two channel DAC chip and DACs will usually only have one 1794 chip for a stereo output. At $1350 it would be a good "get your feet wet" option. I would definitely recommend getting the $900 Merason linear power supply for this because it is very well designed and uses a 4-pin XLR connection for the power (as opposed to a normal 2.1mm 5.5mm barrel plug). Although, you can still get a lower cost linear power supply if you want (like the Farad Super3). The Merason Ferot will likely have more resolution than the Border Patrol dac mentioned above, but the Border Patrol will definitely still be more "organic" sounding. You will not have as good "separation of instruments" from the Border Patrol. When there’s a lot of instruments and types of sound going on , the Border Patrol will likely to sound a bit messy and it will be difficult to pull out the individual sound of a guitar in the middle of bass, drums, distortion, screaming vocals, etc. Some DACS will use the ESS chips. These are generally the most highest resolution and most revealing dac chips. However, it’s incredibly hard to engineer a solution with the ESS that sounds good. If you want the most detailed and revealing DAC, the ESS is the way to go. However, the chip has a different design. It is more like a CPU processor than a traditional dac because it has so many different functions built in. The core in ESS runs at 100Mhz and you need an extremely good 100MHz clock for the timing to be accurate. The ESS chip internally samples different rates using integer math against the 100MHz timing to produce the right pulse speeds (i.e. 44.1kz for cd, 48khz, 96khz, etc.). The power supply for the ESS needs to be extremely smooth and extremely stable. If you look at the LKS MH-DA005 internal pics, you can see that there is a massive main power supply on the bottom using multiple stages to power super-capacitors that act almost like batteries to give the smoothest constant voltage. In addition to that, you will see additional multiple stages of small regulators on the DAC board with tons of polymer caps for filtering the power supply that is fed into the DAC chips. In addition, the LKS uses two separate ESS9038 dac chips (one for each channel). Each ESS9038 is actually an 8-channel DAC chip. The LKS uses all 8 channel in parallel stacked to produce a single balanced output that is fed into the discrete I/V stage. That being said, all this costs money and parts, which is why the LKS 005 is $3300. The basic premise is the more you spend, the better you will get. This will extend up to $5k, $10k, $20k, $50k. You will have a point of diminishing returns where it is just not cost effective for you to spend the additional money for a smaller boost in performance. At the $3-5k level, you are not there yet. But everyone has a different budget. If you really only have $1300 to spend, the Ferot looks like an excellent choice. |
https://www.linsoul.com/products/l-k-s-audio-mh-da005 - $3,134 OR https://almaaudio.com/products/merason-frerot-dac - $1,350 Hmm... |
auxinput - sorry for not responding sooner, I'm up in the flood zone here and it's been a heck of a week for us all! Thanks for all the research. I will see if I can save up a bit for the LKS MH-DA005 DAC.
lemonhaze - Yes, thanks. I had never heard of the Merason Frerot DAC as well until this video dropped: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmAWN3faaM8 Well Pleased Audio, the dealer for the DAC, uses it exclusively in their pre-assembled systems that they sell. auxinput - any thoughts on this one?
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Many good DACs to choose from. I am in the same position and research and recommendations lead me to discover the Merason brand which I had not heard nor heard of. They have two DACs which are getting great reviews.
The newer (I think) Frerot is trickle-down tech. from the bigger brother at somewhere around $1000. Perhaps consider this as it has an additional separate power supply that can be bought with or at a later stage which apparently lifts the performance further.
A friend of mine often asks me for advice and eventually bought one without the extra PSU. Unfortunately as he moved to a different country I can't hear it but I do know his taste. He has not stopped phoning me with nothing but praise and how much more he enjoys his system now. This encourages me to consider it's more expensive bigger brother.
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I actually did recommend the DAC that sns did. I mentioned the LKS MH-DA005. Musetec is the company that makes this dac, so he just says "Musetec 005" instead. It’s the same exact dac. Yeah, it’s expensive at $3300, but I think this shoots higher than other $3300 dacs. It’s also available in silver (hint, hint, lol). I have the previous version MH-DA004, which retails for $1600. I chose the 004 because if I were to design a DAC, they do almost everything exactly as I would. That being said, the parts chosen in the stock 004 were not the best choice and, as a result, the stock 004 had a harsh bright forward type of sound. I have massievly rebuilt this DAC and it’s extremely excellent now. There is a 290 page thread on this 004 DAC over at head-fi.org full of engineers like me who have done significant mods to the 004. The 005 is a much needed upgrade and design change. He focuses on supercapacitors for all the power supplies for digital sections (which are almost like batteries). Dual ESS9038PRO dacs with fully discrete Class A I/V output stage. Better 100MHz clock for the ESS chip. You can read the two threads about this 005 dac on this forum:
I looked at the Border Patrol. It’s a radically different design and I’m not familiar with this type of architecture. It uses a old school 16-bit R2R chip dac. Based on youtube videos, it sounds very analog and very smooth/clean. Apparently, you can play 24 bit music files through, but they are going to be down-converted to 16-bit because the R2R dac chip can only do 16-bit. I listened to the Guttenberg video and one thing he said was other dacs, such as Denafrips, will be higher resolution. The one thing that sticks out on the Border Patrol is that is sounds so organic. In the end it really depends on what kind of sound you’re after. Guttenberg said the Border Patrol are kind of for people who are "music first" for music that sound rich and organic, but the Border Patrol is not as high resolution and transparent and revealing of details as the other dacs in this list. It really depends. It’s not a tube sounding dac, but it carries that type of mentality. |
I don't know anything about Pegasus Musician DAC. I looked at internal pics and it looks like an okay small format R2R resistor ladder DAC at $1k retail. Not the best, but okay. This next is a complete guess, but from youtube videos and what I see inside Pegasus, I think you are better off looking at the Audio-GD R-1 if you want a good resistor ladder DAC in the $1k price point. I think the Audio-GD R-1 is going to be more open and transparent sounding. The Pegasus might sound a little flat/sterile if you do a side-by-side comparison. The Wyred 4 Sound Dac-2V2 is a good neutral sounding DAC. Single ESS and good power supply, but uses op amp for output stage. It's very nice sounding at $2k, but it's not going to have the "magic" that these other DACs have. In fact, I think even the Lumin T2 is a lot better sounding and more open with more "magic" than the W4S 2V2. |
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Just for kicks, I looked into that “432 Evo Essence” streamer/dac that you asked about earlier. It’s essentially a 432 Evo Standard (all the Evo are computer motherboards, which is not necessarily bad). They just put in an Asus Xonar Essence STX II PCI computer audio card and use that as the “DAC” (hence the name Evo Essence). This sound card originally sold for $200, but is now selling for $400-600 for some reason. I am intimately familiar with this card since I used to run this in my system many years ago. I also did modifications (upgraded capacitors / opamps). I used this for some years before I switched to using an external DAC. The stock Asus card uses Nichicon FG capacitors and somewhat low resolution op amps. This presents a very nice and pleasing sound, but it is not going to be super high resolution (due to the FG caps warming up the sound by slightly messing the high frequencies). There’s another point of concern here. The Evo website has a bullet point on this item that says “Oven controlled clock for low jitter”. I have a gut feeling that this is a marketing falsehood. The Asus Essence card uses a TCXO, which is a temperature controlled clock. This is completely different than oven controlled clock (OCXO), which are generally much larger in size and require more power supply voltage. Unless Evo did significant modifications to this Asus card, I think they made a mistake on the description (I could be wrong here – others chime in if they have the definite knowledge). Because of this, I think the Lumin T2 would be a highly superior all-in-one box. The Lumin T2 would be much higher resolution and more transparent as a DAC when compared to the 432 Evo Essence. It is entirely possible that this is the reason Audiotroy did not push the 432 Evo Essence dac when you asked about it. A note on the Evo 432 products. They have a DSP mode called “432hz tuning”. This is another form of coloration where it changes the waveforms. I have never heard this, so I cannot say what it’s really doing to the music and if this is a good result. However, the 432 allows you to enable/disable this DSP mode whenever you want. Further note on Denafrips. Based on listening and descriptions, the Denafrips generally have a thick sound that has a lot of “weight” to it. However, they are not the highest resolution / transparent DAC. Many prefer the Denafraps sound because of some reason or another. I have heard one person say that when they listen to music, they want a very pleasant sound that they can just relax/veg to. If you want a really forward / transparent / exciting sound, the Denafrips product may not be for you. It all comes down to personal preference. If this is what you’re looking for, then awesome, get a Denafrips. |
Ah, a little bit of further googling and found documentation on DSP that Roon provides: https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/dsp-engine#Getting_Started
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What auxinput is suggesting is exactly what I thought you should do all along. Get the Roon nucleus with lps, and those dacs are the exactly what I suggest. I use the Musetec 005, wonderful dac, recent comparisons with Holo May and Mola Mola Tambaqui favored 005. Still, any of dacs mentioned would be superior to the server/dac combo. |
I was not trying to "push" the Antipodes product. I was just stating what I compared the Innous to when I listened to it (it was an audio shop in San Francisco). There are a lot of streamer options. I’m sure there are going to be competing arguments here, but I think you would be extremely happy with a Roon Nucleus with linear power supply. You don’t necessarily need to spend $5k+ on just the streamer part. It’s all about your budget. My point was that the Innous is definitely coloring/changing the waveforms and most other streamers are not doing this (unless you forcable enable some sort of DSP in your streamer). Like I said, many people have listened to Innous and think it’s the greatest thing on earth. Everyone has different points of view of what the "best sound" is. Also, depending on what you want to do. the lesser priced Roon Nucleus ($1459) might be good enough. If you don’t need to do DSP on DSD audio files or have a need for multi-channel audio, then you probably do not need the Roon Nucleus Plus ($2559). The lower priced Roon Nucleus will still do DSD, but you won’t be able to apply much DSP to that. Lower priced Roon Nucleus will still do all DSP functions against PCM audio (such as CD, 24/96, 24/192, etc.). The Nucleus is using an Intel i3 processor; the Nucleus + is using an Intel i7. This allows Roon Nucleus + to do all the extra DSP on DSD files. Some examples of DSP functions are Sample Rate Conversion, Procedural or Parametric EQ, Convolutions, Crossfeed, some Speaker Setup and Headroom Management. I’m not exactly sure what the Roon Nucleus provides for DSP. As far as how I know this stuff, I’ve been in this audio game for 22 years at this point. My hobby also includes rebuilding/upgrading audio electronics (replacing/upgrading capacitors, internal wiring, rectifiers, audio stages, power supplies, etc. etc.) I’ve been doing that for about 15 years now. I don’t know if this is something you want to consider, but there’s a used Roon Nucleus Rev A on audiogon for $995. It’s Rev A which means a limit on SSD thickness size and you only get one HDMI output, but this item does include a 1TB internal SSD for song storage. It’s used, of course. |
auxinput - How do you know all this stuff, amazing and great information, thank you again. No, I do not want coloured music, but I'm afraid the Antipodes is way over my bugdet.I will keep researching. |
I'm just pointing out what I see on the Lumin T2. It is definitely not a bad product if you want a single all-in-one-unit (but also with that Sbooster power supply that you could put anywhere, even on the floor). A note on the Innuous products. Even as just a server/streamer, they do changes to the sound via their DSP. It is a type of waveform smoothing that changes the sound somewhat. Many people love this affect from Innous and think it sounds better then other products. I heard the Innous and I did not prefer this sound. I compared it to an Antipodes streamer and the Antipodes sounded a lot better (since it was neutral). There is a youtube review comparing Innous and Auralic streamer where they commented the Innous sounded more lush and silky. The Auralic sounded more dry. I actually think this is because the Auralic is completely neutral and is not changing the waveforms from the audio. Like I said, many love Innous. Just something to be aware of. |
auxinput - WOW exellent (aux) input, thanks so much for pointing all this out to me! I was just about to pull out my check book for the T2 (at the discounted price) and you have made me re-think this.I have limited space for audio equipment in this house and trying to keep everybody happy (it’s just me and my wife here), hence the thought of the one (or in my case) two box solution. But yes, I could get a better DAC then a smaller server (Nucleus, Innous Mini or?) and tuck it away behind or under the amp stand, on the floor.With all the rave reveiws of late, I was considering the the Deafrips Pontus. I would go with the less expensive but still highly rated, Ares II but it doesn’t come in silver.adasda - agreed, laptop out, working on the DAC now (see above).
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If you are looking for an all-in-one that is pretty decent, the Lumin T2 has gotten great feedback in the industry. That being said, you need to think of the Lumin T2 as a $2000 music streamer combined with a $2200 DAC, both powered by a shared $300 switching power supply ($4500 total price). To get the most out of this, you really need to upgrade the power supply to linear power supply by getting that Lumin Connection Kit $60 and the Sbooster external linear power supply $400. Is it going to sound good with this? Yes, I think it will sound very good. The DAC section uses two ESS9028PRO dacs, which is good. However, the I/V section and analog output section are all op amps. This is not the best sound quality, but with a $2200 DAC you are not really going to get any better. There are a lot of very excellent DACs in the $3,000 to $5,000 range that would totally outshine the Lumin T2, typically all using discrete analog stages instead of op amps. You can look at products such as Audio-GD, Holo Audio May DAC, Denafrips, LKS MH-DA005. All of these have different approaches to power supply, analog circuit and sound signature, but they are all excellent. If you combine one of these with a Roon Nucleus you would be doing better than tha Lumin T2. But it would be separate devices (not an all-in-one). |
auxinput - OK but whadda ya think? I've been checkin' out that Lumin D2 as recommended hear. It looks decent (for $1200 off).https://upscaleaudio.com/products/lumin-t2-network-music-player |
realworldaudio - this looks real cool, that is until you click this link:https://www.ap-linux.com/documentation/ap-linux-v5-install-instructions/ I'm not sure if I have the smarts (let alone the time) to figure that all out!
auxinput - thanks, but I think sns already talked me out of it...
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The Hi-Fi Rose RS-250 is a much smaller unit in physical size. This translates to smaller power supply, less circuitry, no modular board sections, etc. That is the primary price difference. I do agree that an all-in-one probably won't perform as well as a really good off-board DAC combined with your Rune Nucleus + 100W HDPlex. There are some servers that have good DACs built in, but they are generall over $10k. |
My issue with all in one server/dac/storage equipmet is it kind of defeats the whole idea of maximally quiet streaming setup. Adding internal noise and functions of dac and storage in server chassis is not optimum. With outboard dac, you have far more options, and these combo packages are generally not designed/built by dac specialists. |
Thanks all, I think I am going to find a decent combo music server/DAC with an upgradable DAC. This looks interesting: https://eng.hifirose.com/rs150 at $5,000 or this one at half the price: https://eng.hifirose.com/RS250-info . Not sure what makes the big price difference though? |
@high-amp ...You’re welcome. I’ve been a Win/pc clone since the ’80’s as Apples’ only appeal to me as Granny Smiths’. ;) But it’s mostly ones’ tastes and what you’re familiar with. Not saying either is good/bad/indifferent, but what one can mod to taste(s)... I’m not afraid of opening the cover on the box and poking about. Macs usually require one to ’outboard’ any peripherals, whereas a pc can either acccept a card and/or install a program or an app. It comes down to what you want or intend to accomplish. I run the fast purpose built as source, and an older one as a monitor running various analysis progs for RT display of system and/or what a calibrated mic is ’hearing’...an ’in vs. out’ comparision is what I’m most interested in... The ’loudest’ background item is a ceiling fan, that pulls warm air down from the 14’ ceilings I live with....*L* Esp. now that Maude Winter is at the stoop...;) |
On this forum you are always going to get lots of opinions regardless of how sound your position might be. You can make a test for little or no money. If you have an old laptop or PC (both free if you already own them) and a DAC (maybe you already own one) then all you need is a good media player like Foobar2000 or even VLC (both free) and some lossless audio files to send the analog audio to your existing system and decide for yourself if you like the sound. Windows 10 Media Sharing settings, Foobar2000 and it’s associated Foobar2000 smart phone remote control app are not the most elegant solution but it is entirely workable and low cost/no cost. The results could be excellent sound with little investment. If you are not happy with the sound then you can choose how and where to improve. |
@High-amp if you are doign a remodeling, my advice is run LOTS of ethernet cables from a hub location. eventually you'll want it (much better than wifi). It can be nice to create roon zones through the house. I also ran a "home run" 20A circuit dedicated to a quad plugoutlet behind my equipment area. Its also nice to put your roon server in one placeand the system elsewhere - both mechanical and electrical isolation 'later |
auxinput - Wow! Thanks so much for checking that out for me. That was so kind of you and very helpful indeed. With the price of the Keces P8, I think I’ll be sticking with the HDPlex for some time to come. kellyp - Thank you, and please see my response to itsjustme below. itsjustme - Thank you for your detailed reply. There is nothing more that I would LOVE to do is to be more hands-on with this and learn from members like you and many others that have posted here. I find computers and the likes very interesting indeed. Presently I am up to my ears in alligators with regards to a major home remodeling project. My intention is to get some kind form of an audio system in the home early next year, with some form of a music server, but there will still be another year’s work to do after that (no, I’m not that slow, I have a day job as well). So, no time at present to tinker with the likes of computers. Hopefully, once done, I will have a small workshop to do things, just like that! In the meantime, I would enjoy reading your blog.
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And it can, in fact sound pretty darn good. But a quieter USB signal will eb better since any ground noise there affects both jitter and the ground of the the DAC (depending in degree of isolation of course). Note i clearly thought my MBP/bitperfect was better as a source (same DAC) than a CDplayer.
Roon Nucleus honestly ought to be very very good - caveat - assuming it has its own LPS. I am not sure. Its basically an Intel NUC with convection cooling, some isolation and a fancy box. I built my own starting with a NUC. Its was a PITA but i experimented and learned a lot.
Well, on an absolute scale, they are. but they can be fixed or isolated. And some dont seem to undersand that fancy servers ARE computers.
Ah, yes. the Roon Tax. I think way back in the beginning i said i have a love/hate relationshipw ith Roon. Its nto cheap, tech support and document are awful, it integrates with only a few services, it does have bugs that they deny or ignore.... but to badly paraphrase Winston Churchill, its better than all the other options. Feel free to PM me. If you enjoy learing about this stuff, read my (terribly inconsistent and behind) blog. |
@high-amp - Ah, I did not know you already had an LPS. I looked up the 100W HDPLEX. It will handle a 5A continuous load on the 19V output, so it should be fine for the Roon Nucleus. The Keces P8 might be better since it has a larger power supply for a max load of 8A. However, either of these power supplies will be a lot better than the stock "wal-wart" switching power adapter. |
I did it. You can buy a music server, but you won't hear the difference if you do it right. 1. Get a cheap scope for $200 and see and measure the noise. It will pay for itself and you'll learn something. 2. You have to replace your SMPS with a very quiet one. 3. Filter every output with PP bypass capacitors. Especially the power to the hard drives, better to use a SSD. 4. Get a quality outboard D/A converter and power it by a super-regulator. D/C the DC of the USB in the cable going to it. 5. Shield the whole computer with low carbon sheet steel. In fact, shield all low level devices. Don't let anyone tell you it can't be done.
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david_ten - Figure out, with help of the members here, if a computer is going to work as a music server for me. Very conflicting opinions so far. And thanks for the scoop on the Keces P8, the price kind of says it all.
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No need to apologize. You are likely clear on this, but I'm not and perhaps others are not as well.
For example: Figure what out? If you have, restating what you've figured out in this thread or starting a new one would, I believe, offer focused insight from members. It's a suggestion. If you feel you have already addressed it and stated so, I'm cool with that. All the best. |
david_ten - I did, my apologies. |
@high-amp It would be very helpful if you clarify (read: lock in) your choice of path. It has wavered since your original post. Members will be able to help you with better recommendations and approaches, once you clarify and select the path. Re. the original (100W??) HDPlex: it's a good starting point. The Keces P8 is at another level. |
auxinput - the only piece of gear I have left after the great sell-off is a 100W HDPlex linear power supply, which I bought second-hand.It has 4 taps: 5V, 12V, 19V (using for my old Nucleus), and a variable outlet. It never got hot when I was using all the outputs at once, but it is rather old, so maybe I should be upgrading it? |
