Raven Blackhawk LE... am I going to be disappointed?
Only reason I ask is because it will be pushing Salk Veracity Ht2-TL’s... Im coming off a Belles Aria, which was fantastic, but wanted to try something different. My concern is the low wattage of the Raven and low sensitivity of the salks, but my Belles 75 watts sounded better than 3 other nice 225 watt integrateds. So, anyone with experience with the Raven Blackhawk LE pushing somewhat low sensitivity speakers chime in and let me know.
Ok, understood. Why not use the sub in a traditional hookup with the low-pass crossover? The mid bass driver on the mains is going to present better SQ than a subwoofer driver. Set the crossover on the sub and use it for the lowest octaves.
{On the back are an ungrounded AC socket, RCA line-level inputs and high-pass (80 Hz, 6 dB/octave) outputs, Volume control, Low-Pass crossover control (40 Hz - 120 Hz, 12 dB/octave initially, 48 dB/octave ultimately), Crossover in/out switch, Phase toggle (00 or 1800), Subsonic selection (20 Hz or 35 Hz), and a remote sensor switch.}
"I was really curious what 95+db speakers were like so I borrowed a pair of whatever klipsch’s... RF3’s? He picked them up for $200... they mopped the floor with the salks and they are not even close to the same level as the Salks, so it was the sensitivity / synergy that was doing it for me." Did you try using the Belles Aria with those speakers?
Interesting path. You had Carreras and then Salks and the Belles Aria wasn’t doing it so you got a 20 watt tube amp to go with the speakers; but it wasn’t enough power so you’re now getting rid of the speakers to go with the amp? Is that what happened?
At first, I was looking at 20 wpc and 40 wpc tube amps. Not enough. I consider 80 or more tube amps (Octave, Quicksilver, Atmasphere, etc.) but they were too expensive. So I settled at 60 wpc. Preamp and amp for about $4k. Turns out, 60 is fine for my Salks. I drove them recently with 225 wpc and they did not improve overall (they were solid state watts, so better bass but not better midrange, soundstage).
So, choice of speakers, first; amp to match, second.
In your case, I see that you’re seeking synergy by going with a very well regarded amp. I don’t know how the Tektons and the Salks compare in sonic character, quality of parts, looks, etc. That would have been a comparison to make early on with an amp that could drive both of them, ideally. But you are where you are, and good luck!
I really do not see the need for such sensitive speakers. It’s one kind of synergy but there’s so much testimony about other synergies that work equally well, listener-relative, of course.
As a parting comment -- which I expect people to disagree with -- I don’t see the choice of a tube amp in this price range to be all that critical. I see the speaker choice as much more important. I mean, couldn’t one get a number of really good tube amps in this price range to do justice to a speaker in the 87 db and up range? Could it really be that hard? (Looking new or used, might a match not be found among Aric, Cary, Modwright, Octave, Quicksilver, Supratek, Raven, Rogue, Prima Luna, et al.?)
It’s not just sensitivity but load. Easy load means more mileage out of however many watts. That’s the forte of the not particularly sensitive Fritz that makes them a more viable choice than most stand monitors for use with most tube amps.
I’m still confused about the sub out on the Raven. Would be a show stopper for me as described. Fixed level means sub level is the same at all volumes of the mains regardless of how the sub is adjusted. You want the sub level to go up and down with volume just like the mains. Raven product manual online offers no insight on how the sub output works only the filter adjustment.
Great job b_limo, doing all the right things one step after another not getting distracted by the nonstop string of irrelevant comments.
hilde45, can you explain how you worked through all the math that proves the unsuitability of low sensitivity speakers and then nevertheless came to the conclusion there is no need for high sensitivity speakers? I mean, this is literally a wait, what?!
If it does not work out as hoped and you want to keep your speakers, trade-up. If you like Raven, the "Shadow MK" amplifier paired with a really good preamp w/two sets of pre-outs would get the job done! AND you get to keep the lovely sounding Salk speakers. Best of Luck.
@millercarbon I worked out the math which said I didn’t have enough power. But what I also learned was that there is a much wider range of possibilities than you would accept. There are many reviewers and forum folks have found a lot of success with speakers below 93 or 95 or higher with modest wattage amps which are well designed. You might say they haven't seen the light or don't know how to listen. That doesn't pass the smell test for me.
What I’ve come to learn is that the path you proselytize for -- high sensitivity speakers driven with efficiency by lower or moderate watt amplifiers -- is indeed a very good way to go. But it’s not the only way. And once one is past a certain range of mismatch, synergy wise, a lot of other factors can make for a happy marriage. And then there are my ears -- which have found that a number of lower db speakers work with a number of modest watt amps.
And then there are my ears -- which have found that a number of lower db speakers work with a number of modest watt amps.
Great post!
In the end, we buy what makes sense to us in that given moment, the gear we are able to audition, and our listening preferences. For me, it is a learning process which I suspect will never end -- i.e. I will never be a ’know it all’ believing in ’absolute’ truths like so many on this website. And, frankly, I hope I never become like that.
The point of this hobby is to experiment, learn from your mistakes, admit your mistakes, and most importantly make an emotional connection with the music regardless of the cost, medium, or topology. There never has been, and never will be, one type of speaker or any other equipment that will satisfy everyone.
Some of the posts remind me of the story of the oracle at Delphi and Socrates. I quote ...
"In each case, Socrates affirmed that he would rather be as he is, knowing that he knows nothing, than to be inflated by a false sense of his own great wisdom. Thus, he concludes, he truly is wiser than other men because he does not think he knows what he does not know."
@millercarbon Sorry about the word "proselytizing." That word implies that a certain way of doing things is the only best way.
So, would you agree that high efficiency speakers are only one "best" way to go? Or would you agree that moderate efficiency speakers can also be "best"?
I’m pretty sure you’ve spoke about the virtues of Raven, Tekton, and high efficiency in such complimentary terms that you’re pretty committed to it being best. Viz.,
Buying speakers and amps is so easy. Yet it is not so easy some audiophile can't make it darn near impossible. All you do is eliminate from consideration speakers less than 92dB sensitivity. I know nothing about your speakers, except for having heard the name Magic and knowing that means they are crazy expensive and have a well earned reputation for being hard to drive. So without looking I will guess they are somewhere down in the mid to high 80's. [Fact check: 87dB. Tol ya so!] Which in itself is low enough to all by itself be a problem. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-is-floyd-toole-saying-about-extra-amplifier-power-and-he...
It will take you a very, very long time listening to a lot of different stuff to realize this, but amplifier specs simply do not matter. Only one spec matters: speaker sensitivity. Good luck if you buy speakers with less than 92dB sensitivity. Good luck finding an amp. When you read all the problems people have matching speakers and amps first thing you should do is go look up the sensitivity of the speakers they have. Go. Look. You will see. Happens all the time. Guy just the other day took a pass on some very excellent easy to drive speakers, bought some 89dB when could have had 99dB, the ones he got will require TEN TIMES the amplifier power to play the same level.
Good luck with that. Really superb sounding 50 watt amps are all over the place, and are actually affordable. He needs 500 watts. All because he screwed up the one thing that matter about amps, and that is speaker sensitivity. Good luck.
So forget amplifier power. Do this one simple thing right, find speakers that sound good and are at least 92dB sensitivity you will have no problem whatsoever driving them with anything from 20 watts on up. So power ratings, forget em. Why I said they are meaningless. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/difference-between-amps
These are the kinds of things which are super reasonable and convincing but are they the only "best" way to go? Perhaps I’ve erred and there are other best ways to go and you've posted about those ways, too. But this seems like the idea you are convinced is best, and even the only really good way to go. Happy to hear what an equally good alternative is that does not involve speakers at 92 db and up that does not involve 500wpc
Well it seems like B is enjoying the journey including the various detours along the way so that is all that matters.
Yes as anyone with eyes and ears will learn over time there are many ways to skin the cat, each with their associated advantages and disadvantages.
Do note though that high efficiency alone does NOT, repeat NOT, assure optimum performance with any amp. It only means things are most likely to be loud enough with most any amp in most any room in peoples homes.
Reviews of high efficiency speakers with measurements have shown that high efficiency speakers are subject to the same kinds of load issues at various frequencies as low efficiency speakers to the extent that tonality can vary significantly still amp to amp. So it may pay to be aware that high efficiency alone does NOT assure optimal performance as designed. An easy load still matters. You can have the ability to go loud and still never have the desire to actually do it. Some may simply have no need...more modest volumes may suffice.
Also, good quality full range high efficiency speakers tend to be large and expensive. There are much fewer options to choose from. That is a big downside for those to whom it might matter.
But, if you filter the bass from the mains and use a sub to carry the load, that effectively makes you speakers MORE efficient than they were otherwise because producing flat and extended bass response is where most of the work is. So a properly implemented crossover and sub greatly increases the choices for speakers to use with a lower power amp ....in fact most any speaker might be made to work well with a 20 watt soft clipping tube amp if enough of the work producing flat extended bass is offloaded elsewhere.
Even in the best case though, listening at levels > than mid 80s SPL regularly is scientifically proven to be bad for your hearing over time so best to avoid that as much as possible.
Also as always, of course YMMV. It pays to be aware of these things (efficiency, load/impedance/phase measurements at various frequencies) when matching speakers to amps in order to get to a synergistic combo faster and more cost effectively. These are specifications/measurements that truly matter, but of course you still never know for sure exactly what will float one’s boat exactly for sure until you try. While good performance can be predicted, good sound is largely always still in the ear of the listener. That part of it is very hard to quantify. Good specs/measurements merely helps assure that more people will be able to achieve some degree of optimal performance faster and easier and along with that chances go up that the sound will be deemed "good" by more.
Of course price alone can often be the best spec/indicator to predict what people will think sounds good. People are funny that way....but its true.
My personal recipe for good sound is based on speakers first. No secret I am a fan of wide dispersion speakers particularly omnidirectional speakers like mbl.
In my case, the key ingredient is still the Ohm Walsh speakers that are designed to work well for omnis in most peoples actual rooms. So I build around that.
I use high power high current Class D amps that do the job of driving Ohms to the nth degree. Throwing the kitchen sink amp-wise at speakers is much more practical and cost effective these days with advances in amplifier (not speaker) efficiency, mainly Class D.
CLass D and Ohms are a match many have found to be heaven made.
High efficiency amp technology takes one in a totally different direction than high efficiency speakers. It’s the wave of the future. It allows amp and speakers to be smaller and hence work better for more. Whereas large full range high efficiency speakers are the opposite, although as mentioned powered subs that almost always apply Class D amplifier technology these days helps even out the battlefield.
Of course most Class D amps have very high Damping factor that can make many smaller speakers tend to sound thinner or dry than tube amps which typically have low Damping factor. So not all will take to the sound in all cases. Just like anything else. Though I do also run a pair of small Kef ls50 metas (also measured as having very good dispersion for a box design) off the same CLass D amps as my big Ohms with the 12" main Walsh driver and the sound is to die for, especially with CLass D powered sub added.
Its definitely a preference kinda thing. I much prefer lower sensitivity speakers in the 90-93db range when paired with the right tube amplifier(s). It can be a more forgiving and less forced type of sound.
Did the low-watt triode thing with 95+ db efficient (shouty) speakers. An entirely different type of presentation if that’s what you are in to. People with low-watt amps tend to rotate a lot of speakers.
+1 @decooney A preference thing. Not an objective best thing. Exactly. There must be synergy (weasel word but valid in its weasel way) but beyond that preference. Trial and error.
Sorry about the word "proselytizing." That word implies that a certain way of doing things is the only best way.
Apology accepted. Especially since I get it now. Lots of people use words they don’t understand, thinking they mean one thing when really they mean another. Proselytizing is nothing to do with being the best, it is trying to convert one to a way of thinking, to which I plead guilty. But with religious connotations that implies belief, to which I emphatically say no way. My reasons are logical, and sensible, and that is that.
So, would you agree that high efficiency speakers are only one "best" way to go? Or would you agree that moderate efficiency speakers can also be "best"?
Again, this is about an approach, not any particular set of speakers. Said many times what I think about certain speakers. But it helps to not confuse the issues. The big long sections you quoted should be required reading, but there is nothing in any of it saying anything at all about how they sound, let alone what is "best".
The issue I am addressing is nothing to do with any one particular speaker- or amp, for that matter. Instead of specifics I am talking about an overall or over-arching approach. Never said you or anyone cannot build a beautiful satisfying and excellent sounding system with 87dB or whatever speakers. Simply said you are making it unnecessarily hard on yourself to take that approach.
This is the furthest thing from controversial. Sure it ruffles some feathers when people see themselves in my comments. Too bad. Follow the proselytization, come around, live the good life. It is so much easier you won’t believe.
Yes it’s easier with high efficiency speakers because your choices will be limited. Not necessarily better but a different way to roll. The facts speak for themselves. High efficiency speakers are a niche for a reason. That is because to be efficient and full range they have to be large and often expensive, things most do not want these days. Also Tekton is not really high efficiency though more efficient than many. Klipsch heritage line designed a long time ago when only tube amps were available are. There are others but again very large and very expensive. So really the “high efficiency” solution being pitched is not even high efficiency compared to others that are like the Avantgardes of the world. More like somewhat higher efficiency. Which is fine if that fits the bill. Add a sub and crossover like with many and no problem.
Never said you or anyone cannot build a beautiful satisfying and excellent sounding system with 87dB or whatever speakers. Simply said you are making it unnecessarily hard on yourself to take that approach.
It's only "unnecessarily hard" if there's no real benefit to doing it another way. Got it.
I power washed my deck, waited a few days for it to dry sufficiently, and today I applied a coat of beautiful semi-transparent, natural cedar, oil-based stain. Approximately 36 hours from now I’m going to do some serious victory laps of my own. Meanwhile, my 86db Sonus Faber stand mounts are sounding wonderful powered by a surprisingly robust Chinese SET integrated. I had the windows open and was rocking an average of 88db’s according to my Radio Shack meter. Sure helped make the deck work a lot more pleasant.
That's the technical explanation for why Krissy magic works especially well inside speakers. So much energy is wasted that if you improve electrical efficiency even a tiny little bit it results in big gains releasing tremendous dynamics and incredible inner detail.
No tektons, raven went back. Not sure why a sub out would be fixed and not variable...
anyhow, if it the sub out was variable and the raven had the crossover, i would have kept it.
Im keeping the salks thankfully. I think I would have been disappointed with the finish and drivers on the tektons. I more than likely would have liked the sound but...
anyhow, I have a kinki studio exm1 (latest iteration) coming on sunday.
@b_limo Im keeping the salks thankfully. I think I would have been disappointed with the finish and drivers on the tektons. I more than likely would have liked the sound but...
Good for you and smart move. Maybe its time for some worthy mono tube or ss amps with a good tube preamp to make those Salks sing properly. Check with JS he was testing different tube amps last time I corresponded with him.
That sub out thing with the Blackhawk is strange. Would like to hear from the vendor if that is by design or something else. Agree I would not want a unit designed with a fixed level output to a sub. That sounds like design flaw which makes me wonder. WIth that out put and the high pass filter feature, sounds like they tried to make the amp integrate flexibly with subs out of the box by design but failed due to that.
Tektons after beautifully crafted Salks? I don’t think I could do it but you never know what might float one’s boat.
Good choice, @b_limo but I'm biased. I don't think the Tektons are in the same league as Salks, and the Raven was clearly not going to power them. Start with speakers, then get amp to match is good advice. Be curious to hear about your new amp. Salk is working with McGary amps, but they are very pricey.... https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/11/14/mcgary-audio-salk-sound-anticables-exogal-caf-2019/
I’m glad you decided to keep the Salks after all. I wanted to say this earlier, but didn’t want to offend anyone ... the Salks are world class speakers, both in terms of sound quality and build/aesthetics. The other brand you were considering, not so much. Apologies if someone is offended.
In the end, you should buy the speakers that appeal to you, and not sacrifice great speakers at the altar of flea watt tube amps.
Also, I mentioned earlier that the sub out feature on Raven amps is more of a gimmick. I tried it with REL T9i and T/Zero. Not only did the amp not sound any better/powerful when using the dedicated sub out, using REL's high level connection was a clear winner every time. Raven makes very good amps that compete quite well in its respective price category, but the sub out feature should not be the reason to buy them.
The nice thing about QS Silver 88s is you can run a variety of output tubes in them. With my QS Mono 120s I’m limited to KT150s or KT120s, higher plate voltages. With really good tubes and upgraded coupling caps, the 88s can hold their own against many tube amps at 2x the price. Not your super fast super dynamic snappy amps with high damping factor some people crave. Best to stay with solid state amps for that. All mono KT88 tube goodness for sure with these :)
That sub out thing with the Blackhawk is strange. Would like to hear from the vendor if that is by design or something else. Agree I would not want a unit designed with a fixed level output to a sub. That sounds like design flaw which makes me wonder. WIth that out put and the high pass filter feature, sounds like they tried to make the amp integrate flexibly with subs out of the box by design but failed due to that.
Seems like @b_limo is enjoying trying all these things out. Not sure he really wants to cut to the chase, assuming he knows what it is he is seeking prior to hearing it. Can’t blame him. New toys are fun! I’d play more myself if I had the time.
Got the Kinki EX-M1 in my system yesterday. Friggin fed ex smashed the crap out of it. Filed a claim, we’ll see what happens. Unit is working properly, I believe. Ran hot today but its hot here and Im pushing my speakers pretty hard for 4 hours now...
both knobs on the front are loose / smashed inwards. I can’t believe how fed dx treats our equipment. Ludicrous. Sounds pretty special though. The imaging, separation within the soundstage, image depth and width, black background, zero distortion, detail, pretty amazing. The bass is stupid, the mids and voices just float eerily in space, and the highs are there but not offensive.
The Raven on TMR is the one I had. I bought it from them. Great sounding amp but with the sub out issue and cosmetic issues, I didn’t want that to be my most expensive purchase ever, so I opted to buy a pristine Kinki and then have Fed Ex drag it behind the truck for 1500 miles
Ugh! That is a shame. But even beat up it sounds wonderful? Perhaps when you get that mess straightened out and hopefully receive another that the FedX gorillas didn’t throw around like an old tire, it may sound even better! Please keep us updated. I believe the Kinki to be my next eventual purchase.
When you get the damage issues resolved with FedEx I think you will really enjoy the M1. I am using an M1+ in one system and a Supratek Chardonnay and an EX-M7 in another. Both are great amps with similar sound. Both of my units came last summer and don't really remember who delivered them but I thought it was DHL and both units arrived in pristine condition. If you bought factory direct have you reached out to Ken or Alvin?
To clarify, I do believe the Kinki. Is functioning normal. The issues are really the whole front circuit board that attaches the 2 knobs and front display are all very loose. 1/4 - 1/2 of play on the knobs up and down and in and out. Back bottom left corner is nicked which is nuts because its 1/4 thick...
anyhow, this was a used unit in pristine shape. Seller is awesome and now someone I consider to be my friend. Old timer in the game and he knows just about everyone. Fritz and he are good friends and I consider Fritz a good friend as well.
Not to always plug Fritz’s speakers, but they are awesome. Buy a pair if you are looking and on the fence. Salk is great as well but more expensive and longer wait times. Frit’z veneer work is on par if not better than Salk. Sorry to digress but yes, the Kinki is just awesome. I really liked my Belles Aria and Raven as well but the Kinki is more in line with the upgrade I was looking for. The things internals are just gorgeous. I have never personally owned an amp with a better layout internally. Very simple, straightforward, no bs layout with really nice stuff in there. Reminds me of the Arias internals only multiplied by 2.
no complaints with the kinki. Hopefully I can recoup some money from fed ex, fix the kinki myself and keep it.
Anyone considering a kinki...if the sound profile fits your desires, grab one. The build quality is awesome, its jewelry to look at (only surpassed by rowland in my opinion, not talking triangle art or whatever).
@hilde45, the tweeters used in many of tektons speakers are a soft dome sb acoustics tweeter, probably $50. The other drivers are probably in the $30-$100 range. Fritz and Salk use drivers that are more in the $120-$350 price range.
with all that in mind though, enclosures and crossovers as well as design play huge roles. I’ve had too many speakers to count and totem arros were real eye openers and used maybe $100 worth of drivers in total. However, I’ve never heard a seas excel driver that didn’t sound smooth as butter. With high end drivers, at worst you’ll get a speaker that sounds decent.
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