Raven Blackhawk LE... am I going to be disappointed?
Only reason I ask is because it will be pushing Salk Veracity Ht2-TL’s... Im coming off a Belles Aria, which was fantastic, but wanted to try something different. My concern is the low wattage of the Raven and low sensitivity of the salks, but my Belles 75 watts sounded better than 3 other nice 225 watt integrateds. So, anyone with experience with the Raven Blackhawk LE pushing somewhat low sensitivity speakers chime in and let me know.
Taps are purely for convenience and to give you the option to find one that might sound a little better. Which tap you run means nothing as far as the amp itself is concerned. There is a technical difference of course but all that matters is if one does sound better, use that one. Regardless of what the speakers are rated or the amp says.
Taps are for convenience? I think an amp designer will disagree with this. You keep forgetting about impedance and matching an amp with speakers to achieve optimal performance.
You're saying it would be easier to cut open the amp and unwind windings? Remember to put brain in gear before releasing clutch on mouth. Sage advice from long ago.
Yeah, so these 20 watts are plenty. So weird. Who would have thought. And yes, this amp is pretty cool. Dont think its going anywhere except to Raven for some service, updates, upgrades. Ravens customer service is awesome, and their prices are reasonable too! Anyways, more to come later
You have enough power? Well, that's what Jim Salk said about my speakers, too. Need 100w SS or 30 watts tube, to start safely. Of a well made amp; because it doesn't come down to watts.
But he also mentions not to expect that much grip on bass, because that's not what the tube amps at that power will do. And MC said this too. I think that's all you need to know, OP. And trying different taps -- yes, yes, yes. You're on the way.
fiesta75"OP, glad you're evaluating the Nighthawk, enjoy? My question to the tube people, who drives their amplifiers into clipping?
Only the idiot (my word) drive their amps into clipping"
It is probable and likely that you drive you're amps periodically, occassionally and likely imperceptibly in to clipping most everyone does it with out being conscious or aware it is the logarithmic nature of the power required in a Music Reproduction System.
No lack of current from tube amps to drive more difficult loads well is fact not narrative. How it sounds in terms of bloom and other subjective terms IS pure narrative. It may sound nice but could sound better with better dynamics and less distortion if speakers are driven well. Not to say everyone will like better more. Better is better. What one likes is totally subjective which is fine. Lots of people like junk food but you can do much better.
lol, Im not an MC hater by any means. May put off some people but not me.
So, Im a tinker’er through and through. Pulled the schiit gungir dac out (ouch), running the bluesound node 2i dac now simply because with the bluesound, I can crossover my speakers wherever I want, dial in my sub to my speakers and just use my volume control on my bluesound to circumnavigate my sub volume control issue on the raven. Holy smokes, I'm on my way. Once I get this Blackhawk dialed in and the gungir back in the mix, its on! Im thinking of adding 2 DD10 velodynes and bam, donzo.
With the setup right now its stupid dynamic and loud. Sitting between 85-95 db’s (how accurate is my phone? Tested on 2 diff apps). Plenty loud for anyone, I promise. And this is playing bass heavy music.
the highs, soundstage and clarity on the Raven are pretty wicked. No regrets at all!
If the amp offloads the heavy lowest octaves bass work to the sub as it sounds like it is designed to do you should be in good shape. Offloading bass to a sub opens up many new possibilities with lower power tube amps for reasons discussed above. . It takes way fewer watts to achieve a higher Spl when the low bass frequencies are excluded. Heck any good quality table radio with limited bass extension is a good example. Plenty loud in most cases.
I’ve seen and heard some model Raven amps at shows but in lieu of having really heard one enough to assess, having the built in crossover feature for offloading work to a separate powered sub alone is a very practical feature for a tube integrated amp in general so Raven gets some points for that feature alone.
The Raven sub out gives the option of running the amp full range, or using the filter to trim the bass from the amp at 80Hz or 100Hz. It is a 6dB/octave slope so set at 80Hz the amp is down 6dB at 40Hz which means 1/4 the power at that point. Helluva lotta amp for $3800 https://www.ravenaudio.com/product/blackhawk-mk3/
I didn't look at the Raven stuff yet, but I'm guessing from MC's comment that it is only a passive high pass filter? I have been disappointed in tube amps in the past, so limiting the low frequency power hungry portion of the spectrum is intriguing. Gaining knowledge is fun.
Older Blackhawks dont have the eq feature but I can get it installed on mine and will do so.
I am just blown away by this amp. I just left and dropped off the Belles at Fed Ex; big gime sellers remorse. Come home and fire up the Raven and Man, watts are bs, Im telling you. These are some really really healthy 20 watts. With the speakers running full range snd 1 velodyne Hgs 10 in the center and its rocking out. It plays right up to a satisfying level for me (sorry neighbors, but I like it loud) and the sound quality is through the roof. Im so happy with this amp. Wow!
It came with a bunch of different pre amp tubes... I have some raytheon black plates, amperex, brimar, rca, rogers and pro comm.
Anyways, I called Raven, got awesome help and am going to stick with this beauty for sure.
@b_limo -- I'm happy that you are enjoying the amp. This just goes to show the incredible variety in our tastes in music, listening preferences, room acoustics, expectations, synergy, etc. In the end, there is no right or wrong in this hobby. My advice was based on my own experiences and having compared the Raven to other tube and SS amps. I'm happy to be proven wrong as long as you're thrilled with what you are hearing. In the end, that's all that matters.
Having said that, a new toy can sometimes usher you into the so-called honeymoon phase. Of course, I could be wrong and you might still be in love with the amp after a few months. But just looking the various iterations/combos on your systems page (very impressive by the way), I'm willing to bet that you will be moving up the tube amp chain in a few months :)
Good luck and enjoy the music!
P.S: If you're not already using a better power cord, I recommend replacing the stock PC. I tried the Audio Envy Mega 3 power cord and it definitely improved the performance of my Blackhawk by a few notches.
b_limo-
I am just blown away by this amp. I just left and dropped off the
Belles at Fed Ex; big gime sellers remorse. Come home and fire up the
Raven and Man, watts are bs, Im telling you. These are some really
really healthy 20 watts. With the speakers running full range snd 1
velodyne Hgs 10 in the center and its rocking out. It plays right up to
a satisfying level for me (sorry neighbors, but I like it loud) and the
sound quality is through the roof. Im so happy with this amp. Wow!
Beautiful. And I have to say, as much as I enjoy seeing you so happy with this it is equally as sweet being right, and watching all the heads explode! Reading this is the closest I will get to Usain Bolt glory. Oh, the delicious backpedaling above! No, it is not "incredible variety" it is a fricken insane good amp! Some can hear it, some can't. We can. Take another lap with the flag flowing......
People can learn from this, I mean if they are the least bit inclined to learning in the first place. Watts are not all created the same. If anyone proved that you just did, with a 20W tube amp that plays "right up to a satisfying level" like the 75W SS you just had- which in turn was better than 100-200 watt amps.
That's just one lesson, one of the more obvious ones.
Another trickier lesson, don't assume that because you read something you know everything. I thought you had one amp, turns out later you have another. You have an older Raven, they change a bit over the years, without a full and complete description you have an older one than I thought. Any idea how old? They will probably be able to pin it down by S/N. Would be nice to know for people like me still evaluating. Because Raven is always trying to make them better. So as good as yours is, as wonderful as it sounds, the new ones sound even better. Just to put it in perspective, because we do sadly have a number around here just find it so very hard to believe this stuff really is as good as it is.
Well let’s just say one would hope a 20 watt amplifier that costs $3500 would deliver some goods within its limits in order to compete at that price. High efficiency speakers only would be a pretty limiting consideration. The built in crossover for use with a powered sub is a nice feature. With that most any amp might be considered to drive most speakers.
MC, I'm so happy you're happy. After all, this thread started by @b_limo is all about you.
Now I expect retaliation, so do your worst and start insulting me. You've already been extremely rude and classless toward me. Of course in your world no other opinions matter and can't possibly have value.
If I were to send some highlights to the Admin of your comments that violate forum decorum and basic civility to respected members who have been here much longer than you, you'd be out of here.
I would consider the Octave line of amps or even the Don Sachs Valhalla which is getting great responses for the ones he's built so far. The Raven stuff is good thats gotten a lot of ink lately, but I wouldn't trust it to perform well with those speakers.
A friend of mine recently switched from Blackhawk MK3 to Qualiton A50i. According to him, there is no comparison. The Qualiton is at an entirely different level. He claims that it’s one of the few tube amps under 10 grand that is driving his speakers (which are a rather difficult load) with aplomb. He actually, as in ’yes really, really’, owned the Blackhawk for about a year, so his opinion carries a lot of weight.
I had been contemplating replacing my Blackhawk with an SS amp like Naim Supernait 3 or Pass Labs INT-25 to drive my Harbeth M30.1s. But this guy is now making me reconsider tubes again. I’ve also heard that ARC is coming out with a new integrated soon. I will probably start a new thread on this topic to collect thoughts and opinions.
Man I dont visit this forum for a few days and MC does more damage than normal. I apologize on his behalf because he never will.
S.S. watts are the same as tube watts, sorry that MC interprets tube sound as more powerful sound. The other thing he may be interpreting incorrectly is the soft clipping on his tube amp. His belief in this is such a silly mistake it kind of cheapens everything to follow.
I am glad you like your amp, but remember even a broken clock is correct twice a day so dont go thinking of MC as some sort of sage.
On his best day he gets as much correct as he gets wrong.
I dont care about MCs lack of civility, I welcome this type of discourse in these times, and I think we would all be the better for putting up with it. It is the constant drone of his shilling that gets tiresome as well as the misinformation.
I don't agree with millercarbon on everything, but it's sad to see him getting attacked like this. The man has strong views on certain things, and that's alright as long as it comes from a good place. Some of the posts seem unwarranted. FWIW, I've never seen him get 'uncivil' with anyone yet.
It is MC’s condescending attitude that is bothersome. That is different than being uncivil. He is very generous with his information but the condescending attitude spoils his good intentions. I believe that is what some are talking about.
Well I dont sell Schiit so you are in luck or most likely I am in luck.
Listen I dont care what you think of me but please pay attention to what MC says. Apply what you know to what he says. First of all he shills at every opportunity for several products ad nauseum. I guess if you like these products is it O.K. huh? What he doesnt say is he likes these products, he implies these products are the best. Also with a good measure of "I have heard everything". He oversimplifies some very complex issues and conveys audio as a right or wrong proposition. Which of course it is not. But when he states something that is demonstrably incorrect he needs to be called out. If he wasnt so definitive I wouldnt approach him so aggressively.
Sorry but incorrect statements are never right even if they come from a good place. Wrong is wrong and having it floating out there does no one any good. Please find me any person, expert or otherwise, that states that tube watts are different than S.S. watts. Sure they sound different but they arent different in terms of output.
@audition__audio What a fine post. I appreciate where you are coming from and it was a kindly worded statement that truth matters. I suspect it will be met with the usual but I appreciate your words. Peace.
I don’t agree with millercarbon on everything, but it’s sad to see him getting attacked like this.
+1 for millercarbon.
Too funny. Pretty much all the haters have so little on the ball it is more embarrassing themselves than doing any real harm to me. We are after all making progress, building a better more informative forum for the exchange of ideas.
Sure the MDS is sad and can get a bit tedious at times. Although, I do think maybe there is another way of looking at it. Truth be told, it is a little like John Wick. Without all the villains trying to take him out, where would he be? At home with his dog. Who wants to watch that?
People can learn from this, I mean if they are the least bit inclined to
learning in the first place. Watts are not all created the same. If
anyone proved that you just did, with a 20W tube amp that plays "right
up to a satisfying level" like the 75W SS you just had- which in turn
was better than 100-200 watt amps.
As a one Mr Sanchez said, 'actually, let me get out my white board, this has been a long time coming'. This plays out in harmonics and levels of harmonics and how closely they are spaced, and if they are odd or even harmonics.
all due to how the ear works. How many cilia are pressed back which is due to the frequency and the loudness of the given sounds an harmonic structure. how long each cilia is held back.
this gives is the impression of 'musical density' and 'loudness'.
the ear brain, as the worlds most sophisticated and self adjusting FFT analysis system, has to work with just the peaks in the signal, just the positive leading edges of macro and micro peaks, and how that plays out in un even and almost random patterned high and low pressure (air and mechanical) zones in the actions within the ear itself.
since each ear and brain is individual in build, execution and overall possesses micro differences in each, then we find that we learn and hear differently, but with similarities due to similar build of the one ear vs the next.
since the brain is a big component of each overall 'hearing system' we find that intelligence or overall aspects of neural connectivity in one brain vs the next also plays into what people hear and what they are capable of hearing.
since cognition and innate intelligence and capacity for learning and so on also plays into it... ..one can get a less capable ear and brain crying that it is all a bunch of hooey that it is all charlatans and snake oil...while the next person... is likely to hear all that is speculated, and hear it quite clearly.
and is thus able to navigate the cognitive and learning pathway and come to be more informed than the one who is crying that it is all imagination and not real.
Where, to be safe in a world of unrecognized unknowns...Lack of intelligence and capacity has a tendency to fall back on 'negative proofing' as a logic sorting methodology.Literally a core animal behavior outside of intelligence, hanging on the periphery, injecting itself as a solution to the problem of complex unknowns (for that level of mentality, seeing it as unknowns).
to the point that the renaissance people who created the art of intellectual exploration of logic, ie science..these core people of science created the area of negative proofing and dogmatic engineering to help those mentally arranged people ---be useful to society.
They literally formalized a category of education in the mentality situation of the frighteningly common area of human capacities... known as dogmatic thinking ( the mis applied component of logic functions known as negative proofing) ..so as to help humanity have enough people involved in building out the modern world.
The open minded audiophile can be moving many many miles further down the road (learning, openly!) of informed intelligence... than the naysayer... and leave the naysayer in the intellectual and reasoning dust.. the open minded cognating audiophile..can continue moving forward and learning more and more and more..and enjoying every second if it.
All while the negative proofer naysayer continues being frozen in time. safe from the unknowns but learning nothing further. Cut off from advancing, or moving forward at all.
While the exploring and open minded audiophile is moving away from them intellectually and in their knowledge base ...at what is sometimes (and usually is) a breakaway speed.
As Mr Sanchez concluded, "So, everybody clear about their place in the world now?"
@chicagoblue1977 -- I removed my last post because that was not the tone I was aiming for. I apologize for that.
I agree with almost all of your previous post except for the 'advice' bit. The SF Olympica 2 were very specifically mentioned prior to the purchase. I was told that 'many of our customer are using these speakers and are very happy. You should not have any problem driving the speakers with the Blackhawk...". I'm sure your experience with Raven is different than mine, but it's not nice to imply that someone is lying unless you were there when the conversation took place.
And, yes, I agree that I should have done my homework instead of relying on the forums and, more specifically, the amp manufacturer's advice.
"My 25 watt tube mono blocks can hang with ANY 100wpc consumer grade receiver." Good to know, since I don't use a POS consumer-grade receiver. I use a high-current amplifier; not relying only on wattage specs.
And then there's poor old MC, confusing watts with current, and a general lack of being able to read all of the posts ("how about reading the actual listener comments"; how about reading all of the posts smart-guy?).
The OP indeed was able to achieve "openness, bloom" but ran out of steam beyond that, as noted by his comment of "missing dynamics/slam". As correctly pointed out by someone else, this is indeed due to lack of current to drive the low-end and areas of low impedance. Again (for dense members and/or lack of thoroughness when reading posts), there was indeed a lack of "something".
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