Primaluna?

Just look at PL’s DAC ( yet I have no idea why they droped this DAC in a CD player version,,, no big deal its quite easy and cheap to find a great transport)

 

STUNNING build.

WOW.

You just know its sound high fidelity

https://www.primaluna-usa.com/primaluna-evo-100-tube-dac

p will exceed the primaluna. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Good thing going for all PL products is the fact you can ship to Kevin for any repairs.

Buy from china direct, its your baby. I don’t wish to down grade PL, they do offer incredible build, with detailed attention to every single comonent. Which all adds to build quality and sound quality. Where I think PL excels is in the wonderful range of Line Stage offerings and especially in their tube CD player and DAC. If I were in the market for a high end DAC, PL would be my 1st and only choice over Jadis. So we all need to keep the accessibility for repaairs/warrenty in mind. PL has the edge here.

better, especially midrange. They also have a $3000 version which is built like a tank. Once these companies establish a repair facility network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ = Bigger amp does not equal superior amp, I;d sticj with the R8. AS for access to repairs,, you are on your own. However I can tell you most if not all these chinese manufacturers build w super quality, My Cayin 17, although in storage 10 yrs, plays same as it did in 2005 (Now sold, Built like a tank to last FOREVER) I just boughta Yaqin, I have zero fears of a issue. Turn on listen to music, today, tommorow and for the next 20 yrs, Just like my faith in the Cayin. Yaqin is pre fab, at least this amp, Cayin is scaffold.

@mozartfan please dont get your feelings hurt, its not about your feelings. We are all here to learn…you just seem so anxious to progress to expert level that you skip right over the lessons we all need to learn. We are all on the journey but you simply jump the gun at every opportunity, over anxious to exclaim your knowledge.

 

Regarding your price comparo above, please do be sure to account for full insurance and shipping as well as the duties and costs to import, which primaluna includes in its prices. Factor that many direct from China personally imported items dont have authentic parts and tolerance of those parts can be difficult to validate.  Also please also place a value on after the purchase service and warranty. When your yaquin amp requires service, what is it worth to you to know that in advance? Lastly factor longevity in business and resale value, which the stellar track record of service, support and warranty contributes to greatly. You think your amp is less expensive but the cost of ownership will exceed the primaluna.

+1 @mozartfan 

Agree lets get back to PM. LOok every major manufacturer from china, Cayin, Doge, LM, Willenston, Yaqin, many others offer a PP KT amp for less than PL’s offerings. You can get a KT88 amplifier just under $1400 from any of these brands which easily challenges PL’s design, which ,,let me go ck PL’s prices,,,be right back.....$2800. VERSUS Cayin (My fav of all china’s manufacturers) MT45 $1300 (Includes ship!!!!). PL is going to have a hard sell very soon. There I brought this topic back to focus,

I had the opportunity to listen to a Wilsenton R8 at a friend's house a couple of days ago. Not the last word in refinement, but boy is it impressive for $1450 (sold at Amazon). My friend is going to try better tubes to see how far he can push the SQ envelope. He replaced a Naim Supernait 3 and claims the Wilsenton is quite a bit better, especially midrange. They also have a $3000 version which is built like a tank. Once these companies establish a repair facility network in the US and countries outside China, it could spell trouble for other vendors.

Dealers participating 'passionately' in these forums is a double-edged sword. They may win some fans/customers, but also run the risk of alienating an equal number of people. Just sayin' ...

You are 100% right, and I rarely participate and should have limited my comments or not even commented at all. Sorry for that.  

I recognize there are a lot of great and very passionate people here with tons of experience. People that I've known for decades. To call out a group of people when there are only one or two of them saying things that I take umbrage with isn't a good idea. 

Plus I can see that for the rest of you guys that I respect so much, you already feel the same way I do and express it.  You don't need my help.  

I will shut up and only comment TACTFULLY on technical questions.  If that.  I have a lot of tasks to perform. and I'm under the gun here.  

Thanks guys and gals.

 

Mozartfan always coming to these overarching conclusions. We’re not even talking about DHT here, pretty soon this thread will be argument about who knows what? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK got it,

apologies in attempting to hijack this topic.

Agree lets get back to PM. LOok every major manufacturer from china, Cayin, Doge, LM, Willenston, Yaqin, many others offer a PP KT amp for less than PL’s offerings. You can get a KT88 amplifier just under $1400 from any of these brands which easily challenges PL’s design, which ,,let me go ck PL’s prices,,,be right back.....$2800. VERSUS Cayin (My fav of all china’s manufacturers) MT45 $1300 (Includes ship!!!!). PL is going to have a hard sell very soon. There I brought this topic back to focus,

Please forget my opinions that a DHT bests a KT.

Just ignore my opinions above.

Dealers participating 'passionately' in these forums is a double-edged sword. They may win some fans/customers, but also run the risk of alienating an equal number of people. Just sayin' ...

@jerryg123 

But I own an Aprilia so therefore it's the best!

I agree with you. There are fantastic bikes available from many manufacturers. Just like there are fantastic audio components available from many manufacturers. There's no universal "best." 

@brylandgoodman Wondering if people generally replace a single bad tube or if people are replacing all tubes of that type when there’s a failure.

Not sure if anyone addressed this question in your post as the thread kind of got into a debate. It seems that PL and Tekton are brands where this happens. You can learn more from threads where people stick to answering questions with detailed personal experience.  

I owned a PL Prologue Premium preamp that I traded in for a PL Dialogue Premium preamp. Never had a bad tube problem. I did experiment with different tubes to change the sound and always used matched pairs of tubes (the inner two tubes were the ones I changed on the PL preamps - this is where you can hear a difference. The outer two on each side, not so much).

I own a CJ 17LS2 preamp and change out the tubes with matched pairs to change the sound as well.

I recently purchased a Don Sachs DS2 preamp and will probably eventually try a different set of tubes there. Again, it will be a matched pair.

Note that the three brands of preamps I have experience with all use different tubes and they do sound different. That was my intent. 

The interesting undercurrent to your question is, in addition to the technical one of whether it would be safe to change out just one tube or would it hurt the equipment, is whether you would be able to hear a difference. This depends on your ears, your source, and your speakers. Your results can easily be different from what others experience with even a slightly different combination of gear.

I also own a CJ 66LPS tube amp. It has manual biasing, which is not a big deal to do as the adjustment screws are set on the top of the deck next to the tubes. But hey, not having to worry about it could be fun too!

My opinion is circuit protection is important. If you read enough posts, you can form a learned perspective about this. The most unfun thing about audio is not being able to listen to a piece of gear because it is not working properly. I am not technically proficient and people like myself need that protection (I have learned the hard way to turn off all power whenever I change out anything!) 

I am off on a tangent here but want to share that you never can tell what equipment will really gell with the rest of your gear until you try it. Put another way, you might like the sound of preamp A compared to Preamp B. Then you switch out another piece of gear, for example the DAC. How do you know whether the new DAC would sound better with Preamp B unless you try it in your setup? Does that mean Prreamp A is not as good as initially thought? (No...). There is a reason why people have multiple pieces of gear!

Whoops, one more thing! My Don Sachs preamp was better at 50 hours than brand new and better again at 100 hours than at 50. First time I have had a liquid sound to my system.

Thanks for listening!

Dsper

 

 

 

 

I don’t see many experts here on the topic, and the worst offender is this fellow named Millercarbon who declared:

I think some are starting to finally figure it out.

Oh boy another pissing contest about what brand is best and who builds what where and, and, and.

Look some like Ducati, some like BMW, some like Honda. In my world (I own Ducati, Aprilia, BMW and Triumphs) All I care about is that you RIDE.

Should be the same for this hobby. You buy what you like, what pulls at your heart strings and sounds good.

 

 

Mozartfan always coming to these overarching conclusions. We're not even talking about DHT here, pretty soon this thread will be argument about who knows what?

 

By the way, that Opera review not too complimentary, but someone claims its far superior to PL. Why can't people withhold with all the hyperbole!

 

I've owned any number of far more expensive SET amps vs. PL, they don't relegate PL to trash. Excessive pride of ownership and choices one makes leads to ridiculous statements, keep the hubris in check!

Good grief @mozartfan have you heard a preamp stage with 6sn7’s? Then how can you state unequivocally that 12ax7/12au7 is the superior preamp tube topology? There are so many circuits….you just cant make that statement.

Yes it puts out a lot heat, but that’s the cost of 48 watts of SET magic. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Heat factor might be a issue for some folks. But the trade off is worth it, Just find a way to add a fan or AC. DHT’s are the real deal. I know when I get KT90’s in my Defy it will give the big DHT’s a run for their money, 88’s are too **bloomy** in midrange for my FR MIDRANGE speakers. PL are made in same plant as Cayin, which is well known for super quality, craftmanship/sonics. I bought a older model PL linestage, Prologue 3, (??) had like 6 12AU7’s, my fav pre tube.. I did not do a long testing, as i found the sound a bit *unusual*. I quickly returned to seller with my generous 20% restock fee, + I paid ship both ways. Out like $500++ but at least I did not have to keep it. all AU’s in a linestage is not the right design. There has to be some AX’s to make a linestage sound correct. So PL droped the ball on that model,,luckily they droped that model. . Cayin IMHO is slightly superior to PL. PL does not offer any DHT models. = cancel PL. My interested has shifted totally away from KT amplifiers. The DHT’s offer a nuance in midrange that holds my interest.

KT vs DHT, both very close, but my vote goes DHT.

 

~~~~~If you have xover low sensitivity speakers, you can not use a DHT. You will miss that DHT magic.

The Opera Consonance Cyber100-20 running 4 KT-88s is a closer comparable to something like the Evo 200i. To be fair, it's about a grand less expensive not factoring in shipping ($200 on the low side-and $400 Covid rates).

https://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/amplifiers/consonance-cyber-100-signature-945386/review

 

Winner of the Prestigious German Plus X award for Design, Innovation and Performance. Yes, there is a lot of wood there. Can you see it? Plus PL does not even operate at pure class A.

It's curious to me when someone proclaims that item "A" is far better than item "B" without clarifying what exactly is better. We just get a blanket statement instead. Is it based on build quality, aesthetics, performance, smell? What? If you directly compared item "A" to item "B" and you prefer one over the other, then say as much.

Anyone calling PL mediocre and worse simply doesn't know what they're talking about. I've owned Audio Research, Cary, Coincident, Art Audio, custom built, Bob Latino Dynaco, Wright Sound, Joule Electra. PL build quality just fine, and so is sq.

I suggest you have a look at Opera Consonance. For the same price as PL they are far better.

Another PL owner here. integrated evo400.

 

I just wanted a tube amp that worked without me needing to use a screwdriver and multimeter (though i have both).

I've experienced the "bad tube indicator" on the PL and been able to change that tube without anything blowing up.

PL apparently run the tubes very lightly and you should experience years of service from them. 

the triode/ultralinear button on the remote makes this option a breeze.

Be careful of your back if you need to carry it anywhere. I don't think a thief could get very far with mine in hand.

@brylandgoodman ,

I have the Primaluna Evo 300 power amplifier in my main system ( Tannoy Legacy Arden speakers and MC2300 pre amp). It seems every reviewer and most owners opt for the PL integrateds. Perhaps due to ease of review or system simplicity. I just wanted to share from a power amp owner's perspective.

What the PL offers over most other tube designs is ease of ownership and tailoring of sound through tube swaps. As mentioned by others, the auto bias, and bad tube indicators make ownership a breeze. I had a stock EL34 go bad a few days after the amp arrived. Upscale Audio had a replacement at my door 2 days later. After trying the stock set, I swapped in 7581As, KT-88s, and KT-150s. The 7581A were rich but a little dull in my system, and I settled on both the KT-88 and KT-150 as favorites.

I did however have two KT-150 go bad (working but noisy) in short order, in both cases i simply replaced the bad ones instead of dropping $450 on another quad. 

I've owned SS amps from other brands that retailed for more including Pass and Jeff Rowland, and honestly feel the PL is every bit their equal in sound quality. I've yet to own anything close to the build quality of that Rowland amp...I now regret selling.

Best of luck with your decision.

 

 

I had PL Dialogue Four diy modded/upgraded to latest spec with Takman carbon film, I also added MIflex coupling caps, ran with SED (1990's era, cryo'd) EL34 and NOS drivers. This in concurrent  comparison to Coincident 845SET, custom built 300B monoblocks. And I've had plenty of nice push pull and SET previously. The PL, while not up to the far higher price SET's in my setup, didn't make me feel deprived in the least, I could have very satisfying longer listening sessions with PL.

 

PL is one of those good value components, within its price range one of the best. One would have to get really high end system for PL to be weak link. Could be end game solution, not a bad place to end for reasonable audiophile. Its all marginal gains past this point, law of diminishing returns kicks in.

I have a Line Magnetic 518IA (845 output tube) , never any hum with my 97.5db Daedalus ArgosV2s ; in fact never have had to use the hum trim pot.

I’ve got to comment on the gentleman that said the Don Sachs Kootenay was drier and sounds more solid state. Sir you can’t be more farther from the truth. I own a Kootenay and my brother owns a Evo 400. I’m not going to get into a comparison. 

Primaluna el34 to lm el34 is a toss up. Leben el34 better than both. listen, there are alot of great amps. 

Interesting. I never had trouble dialing in the hum pots with my 90db Spendor’s. Dead quiet. A tiny bit of transformer hum if I put my head up next to the amp which might be DC offset. Agreed that PL might be more versatile but I don’t think they compare when it comes to SQ. Cheers

@nquery primaluna is more versatile than the lower end LM integrateds, since it can run more tubes. That isnt the direction I went. I prefer Leben running el34’s but I have three other amps I prefer, none of which are cross shopped with those being discussed. The LM 805 sounds wonderful, dont get me wrong, but I didnt like needing to run a cheater plug and the hum adjustment pots are included for a reason. If you run sensitive speakers….its never truly gone.

@ghasley Fair enough. Did you prefer the PL?

@nquery its great that you enjoy yours. Its all about expectations and proper matching. Mine is in a closet…Im likely going to list if for sale in the coming week or two. It just never did it for me.

Indeed I have compared the PL to the LM in my same room. I did not compare 805’s to the common PL tubes in isolation - not sure what amp allows for that. Just offering another (better) option for the OP that is easy to bias and is in the same bracket.

Yes it puts out a lot heat, but that’s the cost of 48 watts of SET magic.

@facten indeed, I was just rying to get the OP to say he preferred the sound of the 805 tube rather than LM necessarily being better. Full disclosure: I own a LM805 although I havent powered it up in over a year. Its an arc welder when it comes to heat. Not LM’s fault, its the tube.

Happy with my PL Dialogue Four with SED Winged "C" EL34’s. Will be buying NOS signal tubes for it. It’s my first tube power amp and has been great so far. Having compared UL to Triode mode, I greatly prefer Triode. The thing is ridiculously heavy, with most of the weight coming from the transformers. Not the most inspired design aesthetically, but in a dark room all you see are the tubes glowing away. Would have liked XLR input purely out of convenience as my DAC only has balanced output, but not a deal breaker.

At the price I paid, the craftsmanship and quality of components would be hard to match. I saw the video that prompted the PL vs Raven crap show thread, and it was very obvious how much more you get for the money with the PL (not comparing sound, purely based on internals). I am in no way a brand loyalist and only own the PL because I had read positive things about them, it is a good pairing with my speakers, and one was available at a nice price. I would happily own other brands that match or better the performance and value of PL.

I like the looks of my Primaluna. Self-effacing but proudly utilitarian and macho. Like something a mad scientist would have softly glowing on a metal shelf.

I know prima Luna build quality is pretty good, but I could never get past the looks. Just don’t care for the aesthetics.

 

This is what he stated above "I have had a PL Evo 300 and the LM 805ia (which I now own) in the same room and it wasn't even close." 

 

I'd say yes to both of your questions 

@nquery 

 

so, you compared the primaluna to line magnetic or the 805 tube to the el34/kt88 tube? 

@secretguy  +1

I have Primaluna HP mono's & Diologue Premium preamp paired with Wilson Sopia II.   I've had no problems. mix & match tubes with no issues and to my ears....they sound magical.   Are there better brands,  sure...but for the price it's going to be hard to beat.  I've had them for 4-5ish years now and have no intention of selling them unless I hit the lottery.

rsf507

1,337 posts

01-09-2022 2:07am

After this joke of a thread "Prima Luma fires back against Raven"

I'd NEVER NEVER NEVER buy a PL anything!

Yah. How dare they defend themselves?

PL makes exceptional gear. They’ve improved a lot over the past 16 years. The parts in their amplifiers are first class. It’s not the finest amp you can buy. But it’s not $30k either. And can’t you sample their gear without committing to a purchase? I could be wrong. All I know is it’s wrong for Raven to attack gear that sells well in an attempt to sell your own product while lying in the process. In my day, that’s the sort of thing that would get you an a•• whooping! That was a punk ass move. 

After this joke of a thread "Prima Luma fires back against Raven"

I'd NEVER NEVER NEVER buy a PL anything!

PL was fine sounding but the Line Magnetic is a big step up for roughly the same price and power. if you search this and other forums I think you’ll consistently find the same amswer amongst those who have actually listened to both.

@nquery what do you mean, which one sounds better?