I’ve recently purchased Magico A3 speakers and a VPI Classic 2 SE turntable with an Ortofon Black 2M moving magnet cartridge. I have a Marantz SA 8005 CD/SACD player to play the few (maybe a hundred or so) CD’s in my possession. I’ve mostly vinyl albums and no streaming sources. I’m next going to upgrade my old amp/preamp purchased back in the late 70’s with a new, probably integrated, one and am starting to do some research.
Here’s where I need some tutoring. A lot has changed since the seventies with the advent of digital technology. As well as I need to learn more about amplification components in the high end of audio technology. I keep running across terms I don’t understand. I’ll give you a list and if someone would be kind enough to explain these basics I’d be obliged.
For instance I was reading about the Hegel H360 integrated amp that Magico’s Alon Wolf recommended for their A3’s. The review mentioned they were a Class A/B amp, another person commented Class A’s were better, and a third person said he didn’t care for Class D amps. What do these classes signify?
A second question is about DACs. I generally understand their purpose of the DAC, converting a digital to an analog signal. However my only digital device, the Marantz SA 8005 already has a DAC, ostensibly of good quality. The turntable ’s Ortofon cartridge would not need to play through a DAC, I presume. Would I bypass the CD’s players DAC if I purchase the higher quality Hegel H360 integrated amp?. Or could I find an equivalent integrated amp without an integral DAC?
On the other side of the equation I understand the turntable’s cartridge cannot play through the Hegel without first going through a phono stage. My old Phase Linear 4000 preamp you just plugged the turntables RCA cables into the back of the preamp and you were done. What’s that about? Do they make equivalent integrated amps to the Hegel H360 with integrated phono stages already in place, so I can just plug my turntable in as I’ve been able to do before. The amps don’t seem to be well integrated at all if you have to add a pricey phono stage to make them work, and end up having an extra DAC. That’s just me whining.
Third question is what are monoblocks, how are they used, and what are their advantages to a system? They were used at one of my speaker auditions.
I figured out the answer to what amplifier damping was myself, so I’m sparing you that one, but what does the term impedance mean? I keep coming across that.
Thank goodness I don’t have to figure out the cabling nightmare yet. Thanks for any help.
Mike, I think you could start a thread asking what others use with their Magico speakers. Foregone conclusion - most use quite expensive cables, and they don't do it for nothing. There is also a matter of sound preference, equally good cables will not sound exactly the same. I would put digital aside for the moment, interconnects and power cord for the cd player can be done last. Speaker cables and power cord for the Luxman is the priority, and I would go with the VPI tonearm cable unless I was prepared to pay a few times that. Getting wall current right is very important indeed, but it is a somewhat separate task, though the better the wall current the less difference between power cords. Another thought is that although initial expense is high, if you keep your equipment for decades it won't be that much per year. I spend about $100 per month on the equipment on average and it is not very little, I do have expensive cables.
Mike, anything reasonable won’t be an issue. You’ll have to look for it, but I had some Belden plenum-rated braided wire that was great. Basically, zip-wire on steroids. Bought it originally for some low-voltage wiring, used the remainder short-term with a pair of speakers. Probably was 14 gauge. This looks similar -https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BWS20SO/ref=psdc_464416_t2_B00CTWDNS8
Failing that, http://www.ielogical.com then Passions then HiFi then Audiophilia Redux and scroll down to Power CONditioning about 80% of the way down. [What browser does not work? On a smart phone, hold the menu for a second or two to have the menu display]
You may want to revisit http://ielogical.com/Audio/CableSnakeOil.php regarding cables.. All cables sound different and different in all systems. It cannot be otherwise without repealing the laws of physics. There isn’t a wagon big enough to cart away some makers’ B.S.
@skyscaper I strongly recommend you don't buy cables (phono, interconnect, speaker, power) based solely on readings reviews or forum feedback. You need to put several makes/models in your system and see if you hear a difference, and if so, how big. If you get into this seriously, the Cable Company has a lending library. I don't know if Uptown A. could lend you a few cables to try (what brands does he carry?). There are probably hundreds of cable brands out there, from huge corporations to lots of individuals working over a hot soldering iron in their garage. Each and every one of them has their proponents. There are cables at every price level: "budget", value/mid-line, expensive, stratospheric. I'm not going to mention my current favorite, because that will probably just trigger a bunch of other recommendations, and there are already many, many cable threads on this forum that you can easily look at. There is no hard-and-fast rule concerning % of total cost to put into cables, but it obviously doesn't make sense either to have things too disproportionate. If it's electrically sound, zip cord will surely work, and also provide you with an excellent base-line against which to make comparisons. Just try and think about something else until February.
You could think about getting a dedicated 20amp line installed running to your listening room.
There are five or six companies that all make very good isolation transformers. Field reports suggest that they can indeed hum. There are some good ones a little less expensive than the Furman, it's just that (a) I could source it locally, and it was returnable, and (b) forum feedback suggested it was less susceptible to hum than some other brands.
Isolation transformers are heavy. If you have a strong back and don't mind schlepping, and can ensure returnability, this may be something you might want to experiment with.
Inna, thanks for the explanation. Sound a little like the drug companies.
Ieales, I hope the Luxman works out too. I really wish I had access to products I could demo in my home. But, I'm not anywhere near a big city now, so I have to rely on reviews and research as much as possible to make choices. I made the exception when looking at speakers, traveling up to Washington DC. It was a lot easier when I lived outside NYC.
I'd like to read your write up on power conditioning but couldn't get the link to work.
Bfa2, the Beyond Frontiers Audio integrated amp sounds exceptional, but way beyond my $6500 budget unfortunately. I looked at the Vivid review you provided a link to . You must have a marvelous system. Thanks.
Builder3, sounds like good advice. Do you think it would be safe to hook the system up with the zip cord and the inexpensive RCA connectors I have now, before demoing various high quality cables to make that investment? There might be able some higher quality cables available locally I could try out. Thanks.
Mike, get the amp & speakers up and running, break them in for a few weeks with some basic cable & connectors. Then start changing things systematically. Otherwise, you'll really have no idea if you're making a worthwhile improvement, or not. JMO.
For Magico speakers and any other brand with carbon, ceramic, aluminum, titan, beryllium, .... drivers, you should have to try Hybrid electronics. Tube sound with power of transistors. The Beyond Frontiers Audio is one of the great integrated amplifier. Works beautiful with Magico, Vivid, Marten, B&W, Focal, Zellaton, Hansen, Kharma, ..... The reason is tube gain stage without capacitors and coupling audio transformers in a signal pathe. Hence, no phase shift and frequency roll-off. All aspects of sound quality is preserved and the sound is beautiful. 3D stage, natural dynamics, color of voices and instruments, air, and deliver the music. Vivid is very difficult to drive. Read this statement: http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/vivid-b1-decade-standmount-loudspeakers/?page=3
I wonder what they are putting in these wires that cost so much?
Hype
Mike, I hope you don't end up with a pig in a poke. Components need to be synergistic. Assembling a system based on reviews and fan-boy recommendations alone is fraught with danger. It's precisely the reason there is so much used gear for sale.
Forget about watts and ratings. They are no guarantee of performance. I've heard 15 watters eat 500 for lunch.
As far as power conditioners, I first installed one 15 years ago. I auditioned 5. The best in my system was more than I wanted to spend, so I opted for #2. See http://192.168.1.160/Audio/#PowerConditioning c. 2003
Yeah, though some materials and labor are not inexpensive, it is mostly research and development when there is actually one, like Purist, Shunyata, Furutech and Tchernov, advertising and big profit margins. Dealers get them at half the list price or so. Speakers often have big profit margin too but electronics usually less. Really good cables are not easy to develop, signal transmission is not a simple thing.
Mike, speaking of street not list prices I would put $1500 - $2000 speaker cables between your Luxman and Magico, $1000 - $1250 power cord on Luxman, $349 VPI tonearm cable probably to begin with. That's analog and common parts. For your Marantz player..how important is digital to you ? If not as important as analog - maybe $500-$750 for interconnects and about the same for power cord. If you buy used that figure can be dramatically lowered, if you can find what you look for. Usedcables.com has some good cables from time to time. They are usually overpriced by Audiogon standards but they might have them. I am not sure about their return policy, though. At least they are unlikely selling any fakes because they know how to authenticate cables. You could put something like Audio Art cables everywhere and it won't be too bad. They start at $120 for a pair of interconnects. I tried those - very good entry level cables made who knows where. Another brand, though I never tried them just read about them, to consider is Japanese Furutech. Better models are expensive too. You've got high end active components, passive components -cables- should also be high end. But it is hard to buy without listening and comparing, it is also more difficult to spend big on cables than on active components. I know, I did it a few times.
Inna, sounds like the VPI tonearm cable would be a natural choice. Thanks.
You asked what figure I had in mind. I really haven’t any figure, because I’ve never had any cables and wires other than the cheapest stuff most of us used in the seventies, before Monster Cables (if I remembering correctly) and the like came out. I think most looked at them as an expensive hoax at the time. We all used zip cord then to connect to our speakers. I still have zip cord hard wired in place behind the wall for my DQ 10’s.
The long and short of it is I’ve no idea what brands type, and price point of cabling would be appropriate to match my system. I’m trying to get an idea of what I should be looking to spend, if that makes sense I kind of remember one poster saying a guideline was to spend a certain percentage of your systems cost on wiring, which is why I mentioned the overall cost of my system. But I can’t remember the percentage, or where I read the post.
There must be some kind of ballpark figures people shoot for, for systems of any given quality. A year or two ago, I looked at some cables at our local audio store Audiotronics in Roanoke. I asked if they were anything but a hoax. The dealer A-B’ed them for me with cheaper cables and there was a marked difference in sound quality, which woke me up out of the 1970s. But confusingly there was a wide range of prices on different grades of the same companies cables. I don’t remember the brand. Prices ranged right up into the stratosphere as is the case with most audiophile components, so I’m lost at determining how much I should be putting into wiring.
What do folks think?
Builder3, I’ll look at the brands you recommended soon as I figure out what I should be budgeting and of course will lift with my legs. Thanks.
Jones4music, Thanks and appreciate the Superman comics reference.
VPI has $349 tonearm cable, same wire as in VPI tonearm. This should be fine unless you are prepared to go much higher in cost. Music Direct has it. As for the brands, there are so many that one can drown in it. I am mostly familiar with Purist Audio Design and Tchernov Audio cables, the latter being Russian brand. High quality, 'military grade' with audiophile sound. You can read my thread about them here. I have both Purist and Tchernov in my system.
Mike, first of all you will need a tonearm cable that will go from the turntable into the Luxman, the one with a ground wire in addition to RCA connectors. As for how much to spend, there will be different opinions. I am a cable man but that doesn't mean that I spend more than I think is needed. Are you going to buy new or used cables, or it depends ? Used cables will be much less expensive, if you can find what you are looking for, but also there are some fakes of popular brands and models. So, you will need one tonearm cable, one pair of interconnects for the cd player, two power cords - for Luxman and the cd player, and pair of speakers cables. That's five items. What figure do you have in mind ? Your system deserves very good cabling, that's for sure.
Twoleftears, I checked out the Furman online. And thanks for your input on the Simaudi and Plinius.
Terry9 and Cleeds, from what you’re saying, it looks like I’ll need to put some serious study into this subject of electrical supply. I really only wanted to plug this equipment in without any other major expenses.The Furman Twoleftears mentioned alone goes for $2000, I hope you all are enjoying that your’e killing me here.
On the serious side I will assiduously study your posts above and figure out what’s involved with power conditioning. I’ve done a fair amount of house and hydronic system wiring but never heard of the equipment you mentioned for power conditioning before. So I’ve learned something new today. Thank you.
Inna, could I ask you one more question since I know absolutely nothing about modern cabling.
Roughly how much do you think I’d need to budget for cabling for a simple system like mine with one VPI Classic 2 turntable, one Marantz SA 8005 CD player, one Luxman L-507uXII integrated amp and two Magico A3 speakers. I’ve roughly $23,000 into the system components, if that helps with an estimate. Thanks,
To give you a rough idea of the lengths of cables needed, the speakers will be roughly eight to ten feet apart. The components will be on shelves built into the wall located behind the speakers, equally spaced between them. They’d be about as far from the floor, as you’d see on a typical rack.. And since you asked, I will have to get an RCA cable to got from the VPI turntable to the Luxman’s phono stage inputs. I checked the VPI’s unpacked box and there was none in there.
Anybody else, please feel free to offer a guesstimate. I’m only trying to figure how to budget for this purchase.
2psyop, thank you.
Tomstruck, lots of choices out there it appears. Appreciate you mentioning some others.
Mike, I think you got it right. Luxman is more traditional, better quality and higher class. That will translate into the sound and your overall enjoyment of your system. As for cables and power equipment, that is not going to be easy. This can make a big difference. Do you need a tonearm cable or VPIs arm comes with the harness including RCA connectors that go straight into phono stage ? My Nottingham is like that. Tonearm cable is the most important cable in the entire system. If possible, I would go with one brand, except power conditioner/regenerator of course.
For various reasons I decided the top contenders were the Hegel H360 and the Luxman L-507uXII. Both had superlative reviews.
The Hegel had Magico’s Alon Wolf’s recommendation for use with the Magico A3. It was rated at 400 watts into 4 ohms, a hundred watts over the Magico’s recommended top wattage of 300. That was substantially more powerful than the 210 watts into 4 ohms Luxman L-507uXII’s rating. The Hegel was Chinese in manufacture, Luxman had a preferable Japanese point of origin, and an exceptionally well made and solid build by all reports. The Luxmans wiring and internal components configuration looked well organized and orderly compared to the Hegels. As an indicator of the care taken in each products manufacturing, that helped tip the balance over to the Luxman in my eye.
The Hegel had a DAC I did not need, and lacked a integral phono-stage that I did, and would have had to purchase as a separate in addition.. The Hegel was more geared toward accommodating various electronic, downloaded music sources, the Luxman more the traditional analog turntable. The Luxman had a well reviewed mm/mc phono stage built in and no DAC. I hope lacking the DAC enabled Luxman to put more resources into the rest of the amp.
I ordered the Luxman for a hundred off list just a few minutes ago. Thanks for everyone’s help in making this decision and learning about integrated amps. Thanks Inna for bringing the Luxman to my attention. I did think about starting another thread asking about what others were using to power their Magicos. But I decided to skip it because I like Luxman’s longetivity and reputation, and their L-507uXII ’s design too much to pass it by. The Luxman looked built like a tank in addition to it’s superlative listener reviews. I like that. I don’t want to be dealing with breakdowns in the near or far future. My Japanese Toyotas certainly have that quality. Must be something cultural in Japan.
Next up, studying cables and power supply products. But that’s another thread.
The thing with isolation transformers is that they hum when they are doing their job, which is protecting your equipment.
More commonly, the hum is caused by DC on the line, or by a poorly designed or constructed transformer. I use a few different isolation transformers in my listening room - none of them hum.
One more thing about isolation transformers: they replace the need for lesser devices such as exotic power cords or regenerators.
I did the experiment years ago. 5 conditions: Isolation transformer alone VS isolation transformer plus exotic power cord VS isolation transformer plus regenerator VS regenerator alone VS exotic power cord alone.
The results were: first three conditions indistinguishable, then a step down to regenerator alone, then a big step down to exotic power cord alone. This was good evidence that the isolation transformer made the big difference. The electrical inspector opined that the circuits protected by the isolation transformer provided power as clean as any he had ever seen, even at the power plants of major utilities.
I have reasonably good power out of the wall, but even so I use Siemens in-panel surge protectors as well as isolation transformers. You could probably do with lightening arrestors as well. Talk to a local electrician.
The thing with isolation transformers is that they hum when they are doing their job, which is protecting your equipment. So they should be sited outside the listening room, perhaps beside a sub-panel. Plitron makes a good transformer, and they sell to the public.
Turntable add-ons are typically low power, so completely unsuitable for isolating an amplifier. TT motors are all over the map. Some are single phase, some are multiphase, some are DC. Multiphase and DC need their own controller, which can be as simple as a phase-shifting capacitor, but can be (and should be!) quite complex. A universal TT box might be a regenerator, or a constant voltage transformer, or just a few inductors and capacitors. In any case, unsuitable for an amplifier.
All power sources have imperfections, like a distorted sine wave for AC. The only question is how much. So if you are considering a regenerator, look for a picture of the "sine" wave produced, like an oscilloscope trace, and see how much it resembles the classic sine wave from your calculus text. Also look for specifications like total harmonic distortion (THD).
Considering your situation and your coming investment, I think that your first priority should be power conditioning. You are wise to think of it when most would not. Good luck!
@skyscraper The Simaudio is a very nice unit, but I'm not sure it has enough oomph. I would definitely add the Plinius to your list. I just searchd "CSiB" on this forum and there were 64 hits. Likely a number belong to the same threads. Worth taking a look when you have some time...
Clhs04, Thanks for the recommend. I'll research the
Plinius Hautonga integrated, which is yet another model and company I've never run across before.
Snoopy72, If I had an additional $3000 to spend on a new Luxman L-509X those four additional 10,000 μF capacitor blocks would be mine, even though I have no idea what their function might be. Sadly that's out of my max $6500 budget.
Again, here's a corrected version of my not so short list. I left out the Luxman model number above. Anybody who could identify which of these integrated amps they might consider to be the top few candidates to power my Magico A3's, and that I should try to audition, would be appreciated. I'll mostly be playing vinyl records and some CD's, no streaming.
I'm guessing maybe the Hegel or Luxman might be the top contenders. What do you think?
Mike, your speakers are coming in February, there is plenty of time - you don't have to buy anything right now. I am not familiar with your speakers so can't really advise. However, I would keep on the list at least the following brands: Hegel because it is recommended by the Magico designer, and Luxman, Lyngdorf and ModWright because they are quite popular around here. You might want to start another thread entitled something like - What do you use to drive your Magico speakers ? Another brand to consider, I know that some use these amps with Magico and other high end speakers, is Italian made Audia Flight .
Clearly absolute time alignment isn’t a requirement if Focals do it as well as they do.
They do not image at all well.
I'm talking about a 3D image with instruments correctly positioned and no wander as they play their range. Instruments should remain in situ no matter how thick the score.
An engineer spends hours setting up microphones on a drum kit so the image is accurately recorded. The sound of each drum should be coherent and localized. Sadly, that is not the case. The kick 'point' [thwack of the beater on the head] is miles out in front of the 'heft' [air volume moved] and the heft sounds like it is going in the wrong direction, which it is due to design.
The image of a solo close mic'd vocal should be tightly focused between the speakers and not move. Sadly, this is not the case. The vocal is spread like mayonnaise between the speakers, moving back and forth as the pitch changes.
Multitracked backing vocals, finger snaps, hand claps, etc. should be exactly where placed, not stroll about or be one wide smear. Sadly, that is not the case.
Plate and spring reverbs have a distinct tonality and image distinct from the band. When the musicians stop, the decay should be immediately obvious as an effect and not hall ambience. Sadly, that is not the case.
By their design, an accurate 3D image is impossible.
Builder, I’m sticking with new in spite of this temptation you’re placing in front of me. I did read the review you provided a link to, and the L-509X sounded ever so nice.
I’ve got to learn about that too, Inna. Maybe after I figure out cabling. The power around here is unreliable, frequent outages and whatnot to say the least. You don’t think those power conditioners they advertise and you see with turntables sometimes would do the job by themselves? Maybe they’re the same as regenerators, I’m unfamiliar with that term, but will google it tomorrow.
I’ve got to find a decent surge protector too, for all this new stereo equipment. Had a lightning strike one year about twenty feet from the house that fried our microwave and well pump, not to mention blew the telephone junction box cover clear across the yard, while splitting the locust tree the lightening hit right in half top to bottom like splitting a rail. Don’t want to repeat that experience with my new audio equipment treasures.
Hopefully tomorrow some folks will chime in and help pare down my longish integrated amplifier list for potential purchase to a more reasonable size. Here's the updated list. I could make a purchase this week or next. and/or do another road trip for demos. Which do you all think are the top few candidates I should seek out to audition or purchase. Any inpiut would be greatly appreciated.
Mike, another thought, though I don't know exactly how to figure it out. Power supply, it's got to be very robust and resisting interference. The wall current is bad in most areas. I use PS Audio regenerator and plug everything in it, including 120 watt/ch integrated. It helps a lot but doesn't completely eliminate the problem. In my case, plugging the amp in the regenerator does not limit the dynamics, with more powerful amps there might be a problem. PS Audio does have newer and better regenerators, I have an older one. My amp's power supply is not so good, I guess, in this respect. Power conditioners/regenerators is a big subject, but in any case - the better the power supply the better.
Yeah, and 505uXII is 150 watt/4 ohm. I think, Music Direct has 60 days return policy, but you would have to ask to make sure. Enough time to burn it in and get acquainted with the sound.
Inna, thanks again. The Luxman
L-507uXII has enough wattage for the Magicos at 220v at 4 ohms, and comes in at budget at $6445. It has both an integral mm and mc phono stage, which I like too. It doesn't have an integral DAC at first glance, but I don't need one, and didn't really need to be paying for that feature. I think you've recommended a contender, and possible front runner. I don't know how I missed this model. I thought I'd read through all the Luxman integrated amp offerings, but obviously missed this one.
I couldn't be more pleased, and will start reading any reviews on it I can find this evening.
Inna, I read yesterday Luxman, pulled out of manufacturing in China. Anyway, their products and Gryphons are well out of my price range since I'm only buying new . However with Xmas coming up you might keep me in mind for a Gryphon Diablo 120 with their optional phono stage, though.
Mike, Since you decided to consider 'Chinese' Hegel, I would also consider 'Chinese' Luxman. Power figures do not tell the whole story even within power figures. Older Gryphon Class A 100 watt/ch/8ohm amp sounds much more powerful than older 600 watts/ch Krell, not to mention incomparably better. Besides, you need a good phono stage. And also, almost everything breaks from time to time, manufacturer's support is important.
Twoleftears, thanks for recommending the Coda CSiB. I hadn’t heard of them before, but read it’s designers worked at Legacy and Pass Labs before, which is likely a good pedigree. Tough to find reviews on them though. They sound interesting and made in the USA to boot.
They’re quite powerful.at 800 watts into 4 ohms, like a modern day Ampzilla. At $6000 they do make the top end of my price range. I’ll keep looking for reviews. They list Audio Doctor as a dealer, but Coda isn’t listed on at least their New Jersey site as a product they carry. The NJ Audio Doctor writes in here frequently so I thought maybe they’d know something about them relative to other integrateds on my short list. Thanks.
Bjesian, appreciate the suggestion on getting a Boulder refurbished, but I’m going to stick with new to avoid hassles.
Terry9, no doubt true.
Jones4music, be nice. If people here on Audiogon can’t help with high end audio suggestions, I’m not sure where else to turn for assistance. This stuff is expensive for the average person, and without an audio engineering backgroud, I can’t ill afford to make completely uneducated, if not just plain dumb, choices.
With all of your suggestions and some research, I’ve got my list of possible amps narrowed down to ten potential choices. A couple of Chinese made ones were left in due to exemplary reviews, albeit with a little trepidation. I’ve winnowed the list down on the basis of price being between $4500 and $6500, a stretch beyond my self imposed $6000 limit, and having the recommended power, 50-300 watts into 4 ohms, to feed the power hungry Magico A3’s.
My interest is in playing mostly records and CD’s, no streaming media. Being able to plug my Smart TV into it would be okay too for listening to movies. My system, as aforementioned, will be Magico A’3 speakers, a VPI Classic 2 SE turntable, and a Marantz SA 8005 CD/SACD player with integral DAC.
I’ll likely have to bump the Krell off the list as it’s going to be $7000 in the US, as opposed to the $6500 price I saw listed in Europe when I calculated the exchange rate. For some reason the McIntosh MA 6700 is listed on the McIntosh site as not available in North America, so that may have to go too. I’m not sure how much value should be placed on the room correction feature included with the Anthem (ARC) and Lyngdorf (Room Perfect) entries either, which make choosing a bit more difficult.
I know it’s a lot to ask, but If any of you can help focus the below list on which amps you perceive should be the front runners on a short list, I’d be appreciative.
If I remember correctly, the Chinese were handed modern technology with aerospace deals under Reagan. It was all in the open, above-board and, what must now be obvious to everyone, was not to US advantage.
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