Playing CDs sounds better than Qobuz — dammit

Another +vote for Esoteric CD/SACD players.

Happy Listening!

As above, another +vote for Pioneer Elite BDP-09. And playing CD/SACD discs.

Happy Listening!

3x the cost of the node is still not a terribly expensive piece of gear in this hobby. But well worth the cost. I went from a Node to a Lumin and was delighted.

@Maynardewm Both my Node 2i and cd player run through the same J2 Geshelli dac which has many good reviews putting up againest dacs 3 x its price $250.00.

I do like analog sound so Ill probably go with R2R dac down the road. 

Ive read many do big upgrades to dacs while still using their Nodes.

Yes, Im sure a streamer 3x cost of Node would be an improvement.

@soix

+1

Noise in audio is something you have to learn to hear. Decades ago it ceased to be hiss or anything you point to, but it is the noise floor. It is obvious indirectly in not having a dead quiet background that you can fall into. It can be very bad and cause fatigue while listening. Your eardrums are bombarded by it, but without practice you will not hear it.

@soix significantly? I have never heard or experienced any "noise" using a MacBook connected to a DAC to play music or in music production connected to audio interfaces when I operated a recording studio. Like I said, there’s maybe, MAYBE a difference in sound quality that is almost imperceptible between a high end CD player connected to the same DAC as a MacBook, but there certainly isn’t any "noise" that I can hear at least. The DAC is receiving data from the laptop, not audio. I’m not sure how 1s and 0s could be made noisy.

@maynardewm Your computer is significantly compromising your streaming performance due to noise, etc.  I’d highly recommend at some point you at least try a dedicated streamer to see how much better Qobuz can sound.  Just my $0.02 FWIW. 

Are you sure the difference isn't just the DAC inside of the CD player vs. whatever DAC you use for streaming? 

I have a Primare CD32 that I connect to a Topping D90SE DAC via toslink because I think the Topping DAC is better than whatever is in the CD32. I also connect my Laptop directly to the Topping D90SE via USB and output the sound to the same amp and headphones. 

This way, I'm really doing a direct comparison between what is essentially a CD transport, and Qobuz. And honestly, the difference is so small I can't tell if it's just placebo. I feel like CD is maybe slightly more dynamic and has more bass, but that could be just wishful thinking, because I'm talking a like 1-2% difference.

If you upgrade your streamer to something like Innuos, Lumin, Aurender, etc. you’ll get a big improvement in performance.  I’d start there.  Just my $0.02 FWIW. 

For those here discussing old cd players, Ive got a 23 year old Toshiba SD9200N DVD/cd unit. Dont know much about it, but it was $2k back then and must weigh over 20 lbs. No remote. Can only use cd player and bypass its dac through a Geshelli J2 dac. So I guess Im just using it as a transport. 

Anyone know if a new "transport" would make any SQ improvement?

Must admit cds sound better than most HiRez Qobuz  through etherneted Node 2i using J2 dac too.

Lps SQ still better and high quality lp pressings are the BEST in my rig.

Thanks for the information.

The DV-09, BDP-09 are hidden gems.  They sound good as CD players but make outstanding transports and are stupidly inexpensive because most people were/are using them at DVD or blue ray players and not CD transports.  So they don't know or care.

As an Electrical Engineer I can tell you they are very much over built.  As I've mentioned, I've compared quite a lot of CD players to be used as transports (way more that I want to admit) and these two provide a wow factor.  I'll keep my eyes open for the ones you recommended also.

Thanks,

enjoy

@minorl

Ahh…..gotcha. I wouldn’t think Aurender makes CD transport. Bits or digital audio signals are all different, they are not the same. Say if you have two different sources or using two different streamers or music servers going into the same DAC they would sound different although you’re using exact same DAC. Those zeros and ones (binary) are not the same.

In regards to your older Pioneer Elite bluray player used as a CD transport to play Redbook CD, I never had any hands on experience with any Pioneer Elite bluray player or universal disc player. But say just in case if your old Pioneer bluray player dies on you or stop working due to age, you should consider buying a used Oppo 103/105 or 203 universal bluray disc player and use it as a CD transport. Oppo makes great disc transport for very affordable price. I had been using my Oppo 105 as a disc transport going to a separate DAC until I bought a used Cary Audio CD 306 SACD player / DAC (professional edition) 4 yrs ago. The Oppo when used as a disc transport it performs very well, reliable and sounded very good when connected to a high end outboard DAC with a high quality high end digital cable and power cables and good isolation on the Oppo. But my Cary CD 306 SACD player (professional edition) is on another level as its original MSRP was almost 8 times as much as the original MSRP of the Oppo 105 ($1200). The Cary CD 306 SACD player (professional edition) original retail was $8k when it was first introduced back in 2008. Now I run the XLR analog out of my Cary 306 SACD player / DAC to my preamp and use the Oppo 105 strictly for bluray movie and streamed Netflix movie playbacks as well as occasional DVD-Audio high resolution audio music playback and is connected via HDMI to my Classe SSP 800 preamp processor. The Oppo is excellent when used for bluray movie playbacks via HDMI out, even those streamed Netflix movies look very good on the Oppo 105.

Or alternatively for playing CD & SACD and if you’re willing to pay more you should look for a used discontinued Cary Audio CD 306 SACD player / DAC (professional edition) or the non professional edition, the professional edition sounds better but it isn’t like a night and day difference but it is audible and the pro edition is noticeably better. This is an older CD/SACD player / DAC combo, it was first introduced in around 2006/2008 and was discontinued around 2015/2016. These players (both pro and non pro editions) sounded fantastic highly musical very analog like very smooth yet highly resolving but it’s hard to find one in used markets. A used one is probably going for around $2500 to $3500 in used markets if you can find one. This is a statement flagship CD/SACD player from Cary Audio and Cary doesn’t make CD/SACD player anymore. These Cary 306 can be used as a standalone DAC as it has digital audio inputs on the back : AES/EBU, coax digital spdif, optical digital (Toslink). This player is heavy weighing in around 45 pounds and is very well built and designed. it was built like a tank.

I did the switch from a Node 130 w/ upgraded power supply (which in itself was a great improvement) to a Lumin U1 w/ X1 power supply, and it's night and day improvement in every way. As it should be for the price difference. Better bass, sound stage, definition, detail, etc. 

Personally, I find playing local FLAC vs the identical song on Qobuz does reveal slight differences. But neither are better or worse. Local files sound cleaner, more defined, and more detailed by a slight margin. However, that doesn't necessarily mean it's always more enjoyable. And even then, the differences are splitting hairs with this level of streamer. 

@dilatante 

Yes, I use FLAC to rip all my CDs.  However, I probably wasn't clear.  My Aurender unit does not play CDs, it only rips to the internal hard drive, or to an external NAS, and plays from it or streams.  My CD Transport unit is a very nice Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD unit.   Which I use as a transport only into my Audio Research DAC 9 via optical.

The Aurender goes to the DAC 9 via USB.

The Aurender is suppose to rip bit perfect.  But, people say digital is digital or amps are amps, but.... not really.

Also, by-the-way, Pioneer Elite BDP-09 and DV-09 units are built like tanks.  Seriously overbuilt and I've compared them to many, many other transports, most extremely high end and well known and the BDP-09 and also the DV-09 are right up there as transports go.

People replaced them because they were using them as DVD players or Blue Ray players and although quite nice, they loaded a little slowly and upgrading their home theater units with the latest and greatest.  But, for music only and as a transport only, wow!

enjoy

Is the iFi Zen Stream going to the same DAC as when you were using your iPad to stream Qobuz to? Did you use the same USB cable with the iFi and the iPad to the same DAC?

@dilatante Yes and yes.  

@minorl

Did you use FLAC to rip all your CD collections? Depending on the music server you have the CD ripped files stored in, a high quality server and CD ripper should yield identical performance if not better than playing the actual physical CD disc with the CD transport going to the same DAC. And it looks like you have a good quality Aurender music server/streamer/CD transport all-in-one unit, and I’m surprised that playing the actual CD physical disc in the same transport unit as the CD ripper/music server/storage/streamer going to the same DAC delivers better sound.

@soix 

Is the iFi Zen Stream going to the same DAC as when you were using your iPad to stream Qobuz to? Did you use the same USB cable with the iFi and the iPad to the same DAC? I have no doubt the iFi Zen Steeam with their iPower X power supply would sound better than using your iPad going to the same DAC and it should.

I have an Aurender CD/Ripper/music server/Streamer, a very good CD Transport and a Audio Research DAC 9 DAC.

Since I have lots of CD's it made sense for me to rip my Cds to the server's hard drive so I didn't have to pay to hear music streamed that I already owned.  A few days (or pay your kids to do it) ripping and you are done.  Any new CDs get ripped immediately.

So, in every case, when I listen to music on my Analog system, it is always, and I do mean always better.  However, my digital setup is quite nice indeed.  So, I listen to music that I ripped to the server and it is quite nice.

When I listen to Quoboz (spelling?) it sounds the same actually.  However, when I play the actual CD on my transport, it always sound better (not much but better) that the server/streamer.

So, my order of quality (on my system) is 

1. Analog system (really opens up the sound

2.  CD transport to DAC

3.  Streamer/music server, pretty much tied.

I know, I know, people will say that digital is digital and ripping bit perfect should sound the same no matter what.  That is not accurate in my case.

They are all (except for the analog system) going through the same DAC so no variation there.  They are all using the same type and length cable, so no variation there.

enjoy

@dilatante Thanks for asking.  I ended up getting an iFi Zen Stream with their iPowerX power supply and it provided a huge improvement.  If I upgrade from the Zen it’ll likely be to an Innuos Zen so I can load my CDs that aren’t available to stream into it, and I like their Sense app that gets great reviews for both sound quality and usability. 

Lost me at dongle....

@soix 

Have you upgraded your streamer yet? If you did, which one did you end up going with? You should highly consider Naim or Linn streamers. Aurender, Lumin, T&A, EMM Labs, Playback Design also make great sounding streamers / DAC. 

Hi, I use Wolf Audio and couldn’t be happier, it is linked to my T+A DAC 8 which is is a fabulous dual channel DAC. Check them out, link below.

Streaming is probably the first time I started looking at all what some call snake oil. After I put the Sonore Rendu and decoupled the network from the system and added a really good DAC wow.   There is noise out there. I have not dove into the $2000 usb and hdmi (for I2S) cables as I really have never noticed big things there. But streaming both from streaming service and ripped CDs and SACDs is absolutely amazing with an incredibly low noise floor. Just super clean music.  And so much more fun jumping around to different music with just your finger. Done right streaming is just as good as discs. 

@kletter1mann I’d be interested in your findings in the performance differences between the Lumin and Node.  Lumin is on my radar too. 

@soix Well, I upgraded the Lightening cable from the Apple Camera Adapter and it improved the sound significantly so thought I was ok until I brought my CD transport up from my big rig.  I think it’s pretty clear from you and others I need to go with a hardwired, dedicated streamer so now just need to decide which one.  I’m happy with my DAC so I’m just looking for a pure streamer.  Thanks for the feedback.

FWIW, I got a Lumin u1 Mini on its way right now.  Bye bye Node 2i.  Seems like a good balance of features, performance and $$$.  And  no annoying onboard DAC.  Good luck!

@oldschool1948 ​​​​​@jafant ​​​​​​agree with both of you.

I go back and forth with streaming from Tidal MQA and listening to stored content on my Innuos Zenith3+Phoenix USB and I’m still feeling like my stored content sounds better (ever so slightly deeper, and fuller/dynamic).

I’ve been downloading all that I can HiRes off Bandcamp and ripping tons of CD’s because of it.

My SU-R1000 MC Phono Stage and DSP is otherworldly and makes me just laugh spinning vinyl (Ortofon MC Blue on my Teac TT XLR out).

Source is always the key, and everything falls after.

System:

Innuos Zenith 3/Phoenix USB (cat8)

Musetec MH-D005

Technics SU-R1000

Parasound JC5 (soon to be JC1+ Mono’s!!!)

JBL L100 75’s

Dual KEF 12b Kubes

Teac TN-5BB TT

I suppose that any file or ripped is impossible to reach the quality of the sound of Esoteric k01 or k03 Xd. 

@yage No, no AirPlay. 

@kletter1mann Well, I upgraded the Lightening cable from the Apple Camera Adapter and it improved the sound significantly so thought I was ok until I brought my CD transport up from my big rig.  I think it’s pretty clear from you and others I need to go with a hardwired, dedicated streamer so now just need to decide which one.  I’m happy with my DAC so I’m just looking for a pure streamer.  Thanks for the feedback. 

@soix 

Are you using AirPlay to stream Qobuz?

@kletter1mann 

If you have a “seriously high end system” and you are still using a Node 2i, you should rethink that part of your chain.

Oz

@adasdad - our pleasure 🙂

Whatever you choose, the attention paid to the network delivering the data, plus the PSU for the streamer are critical and will hugely improve the sound quality. I’ve found the iFi iPower Elite exceptionally good. Try one with a used Auralic Aries and you’ll be very surprised.

Getting all kinds of specific advice on streamers, routers etc is, IMHO, pointless without knowing the rest of the chain.

@kletter1mann Yeah, good point. My bad. Audience AR1p, Musician Pegasus, Singxer SA1, Hifiman Arya Stealth, LavriCable balanced silver cables for headphones and balanced between DAC and amp as well as Lightening cable and dual USB cable, Cullen power cables.

So, what I’m thinking is Optical Rendu, iFi Zen Stream, ProJect Streambox, or a used Innuos Zen. Thoughts?

With fast music and music with a lot of cymbals my cd transport into the same DAC easily trumps the node 2 either streamed of played off of ss drive through the node. Better flow and more natural sounding.  Also music that has large dynamic shifts sounds more dynamic and natural via the transport.
With slower music or vocal only not much difference. Ymmv. 

After wading through all this it occurs to me that we don't know anything about the OPs system apart from iStuff.  Maybe I missed it?  Anyway, it's completely unsurprising that a reasonable CD player/transport on a reasonable system would sound better than the iStuff. I've got a kind of mid-fi setup with KEF LS50s, PS Audio Sprout 100 and Bluesound node 2i.  My android phone can stream through the Sprout via Bluetooth.  The Node 2i sounds far better (yeah, I know, Bluetooth yada yada).  I've also got a seriously high end "reference" system also using a Node 2i.  The differences are even more pronounced.  That said, the differences between the Node 2i and CDs and ripped CDs onto flac files is minimal.  And how much of that is imperfect level matching?  Anyway, what you've done (I think) is really just take Bluetooth out of the chain.  But what's the rest of the system?  Getting all kinds of specific advice on streamers, routers etc is, IMHO, pointless without knowing the rest of the chain.

My gut reaction is just get a Node 2i.  Use ethernet if you can.  Listen and compare.  I'd be amazed if it wasn't an improvement.  THEN contemplate how much better it needs to be, if at all.  If you upgrade just sell the Node 2i.  And forget the special audio router stuff unless the rest of your system is very very special (flame on!).

@richtruss, I happen to agree with you that a good streamer running Qobuz, in a dedicated system that is properly filtered, sounds far superior to one that is using a CD transport as its music source. I would never have come to this conclusion without the help from both you and Rob. Thank you

I think the number one problem with satellite streaming is not really the gear (although that can be undeniably a big part of it as well) but it’s the process. The only potential fatal flaw I see there is hoping for the best when you’re trying to bounce the signal up to a satellite nearly 200 miles up and then back down again and expecting it to sound as good as a disc. Somehow, something tells me that process is just gonna be murder on the signal. We’ve more or less seen similar troubles crop up before when trying to run digital signals along lengths of wire. And yes, I know that in that case the signal is actually analog at that point, not digital, and I don’t really even know whether the beam to and from the satellite is in analog or digital form, but my point is simply that if transmitting the signal a short distance here on earth can give us fits, just try to imagine what the hurdles to overcome must be like for the 400 mi round trip...! In the end we may wind up with the technological service we desire, e.g. the one we thought we were getting, but I suspect it may take them a few attempts to get it right...and we’re still basically in the middle of our first commercial attempt. We may have to put this idea back in the oven to bake a little longer, but I’m guessing we’ll get there.

Maybe another way to look at that is, IMO, sending a hifi signal across the room via wifi OTOH, is a right good improvement over satellite streaming sq - maybe not q-u-i-t-e as good as disc - but rilly rilly close! Using better gear in that scenario, you’d think it would pay the dividends with sq that you might ordinarily expect to see. But, with satellite streaming I think the better gear might only go so far and then effectively no farther, really. At least for now. Hopefully they will get around to perfecting the satellite part of it.

I think iphone is the bottleneck. If you had an external DAC, buy a lighting to USB (e.g. type B) adapter and hook up the iphone to the DAC. Or you could invest a portable DAC such as Audioquest Dragonfly Cobalt connected with an lighting to USB type A adapter. That will allow you play hi-res music through iphone. If you want to charge your iphone while playing music for a longer time period, buy a aforementioned lighting to USB adapter that also has a splitter from lighting to charger (also USB). 

About four years ago, I ripped my 1000 CDs to a Zenith MK2 streamer and haven’t looked back.  I use Roon on a Mac mini for whole house stereo to powered speakers.  In my listening room, I use Innuos Sense, which sounds a LOT better than Roon.  

In my system, Tidal MQA and Qobuz HiRes sound about the same, with a slight edge to Qobuz on most tracks.  MP3s sound pretty good in my main system.  I think vinyl sounds better than CDs and anything streamed. 

I’ll be 74 in a few weeks.  For me it’s time to settle down and just enjoy the music.   Towards that end, I sold my McIntosh CD player (and my Mac preamp, power amp, and tuner) and plan to sell my Technics 1200G TT and the rest of my analog stuff.  With the proceeds, I plan to buy a better streamer and DAC, or a streamer/DAC combo - something in the 10-15K range.

When it comes to SQ, vinyl will always be my first love, but, for convenience and simplicity, I plan to spend the rest of my years streaming. My son has always wanted my 1500 albums; it’s time he gets them.

Try listening to SACDs and Blu-ray Audio discs with a GeerFab Audio D.BOB extracting DSD64 and up to 24/192 PCM, then out over coax/Toslink (DoP for DSD) to an external DAC, and then compare that to streaming.

Optimizing streaming is not easily achieved. I'm discovering the most experienced streamers are going to completely discreet solutions. This entails something like Roon library on stock or modded pc, server running proprietary OS, endpoint/streamer able to run that server OS. This system will also need to have high quality ethernet cable, LPS for all components, fiber conversion.

Of course we have streaming at all levels from beginner to the above optimal setup. With almost unlimited streaming solutions and a number of different cd transports available each situation could bring about differing favored digital solution.

I can only speak for myself, cd rips long ago defeated my Mark Levinson #37 transport, used Phillips Pro mechanism, long considered one of the best. It took a couple years more of network upgrades for streams to challenge rips as best. These days I couldn't reliably tell the difference. While I still have room for improvement in cd rip playback, much more room for streaming improvement. Streaming will soon become de facto means for optimal digital playback, if not already there.

@soix 

So, let’s drill down a bit here.  I realize I need to go hard-wired to a good streamer, and it also makes sense I should upgrade my switch.  Can’t do both right now, so I’m guessing I should go with hardwired streamer first and then upgrade switch?  Or Optical Rendu?  Thoughts?

That's what I do now. Ripped all my discs to NAS and use wired ethernet to opticalRendu. That beats the microRendu I had previously by eliminating a lot of noise as described in many posts below. Even the microRendu crushed my MacMini w/Audirvana+ or Amarra because a low power specialized device with a good LPS is SO much quieter than a PC/Mac running many processes unrelated to audio playback. 

You don't have to go nuts ripping all disks at once...just start with your most frequently played and do a few each week while you're watching movies, etc. 

The mastering of what you've got on disc vs. what services stream is a mystery and huge rabbit hole. Your findings are no shocker. With rips to a NAS or SSD, clean wired ethernet and a decent streamer you should well be on your way. FWIW, Andrew at SGC recommended a $20 TP-Link switch that sounds very good at nominal cost. Just don't skimp on the power supply for your streamer/renderer; they make a huge difference in SQ. Cheers,

Spencer 

Ahh I do still stream in the car sometimes. 

I streamed for years. Tidal Qobuz Amazon HD. One morning I got up and and hooked my old nad CD player up on a lark. Using its spdif out to my DAC. I haven’t streamed a song since. I upgraded to a Cambridge cxc transport and it’s even better. I play cds that are scratched up where the nad would skip. I’ll one have missed a beat on the Cambridge. Personally I’m done. Probably if I went with one of the 5k streamers and treated the internet noise with all those gadgets it might be equal or better? Now finding used music stores and finding cool cds is a new hobby of mine. As good as the cxc sounds I will probably upgrade my transport at some point. 

soix - if your budget is $1500, that will buy a nice stack of used (or new) CDs.

I really like CDs, and I still have not upgraded to streaming.  My CD collection includes material from MFSL, DCC, JVC XRCD, Telarc, FIM, etc.  And of course you can visit the Steve Hoffman forums, and really go down the rabbit hole of comparing various pressings/re-issues of CDs.

My Marantz SACD7S3 has crushed every streamer I have tried so far. And that makes me happy.

Yes CD's beat any streamers I've heard regardless of the DAC used. Convenience is not there yet. Best wishes.

Not sure this will help… but I recently tried to improve my streaming SQ because I was disappointed that my iPad via camera adapter (usb) sounded better than coax from my node 2i to my “new” Gustard x26 pro DAC. I thought at the time that the reason why was because the usb implementation was superior to coax (And that may well be at least partially true….. I don’t know) on the Gustard. So I ordered the Ifi stream and updated the cat cables when hooKing up my new Ifi directly to Gustard via usb. Long story short the iFi wasn’t for me, but I now believe that the adaptor sounded better (again, at least partially) because my wifi sounded better then Ethernet connection. I came to that conclusion because I changing my Ethernet cables to Cat 8’s made the node2i sounds better via coax then the iPad via adaptor. Total cost was $30 bucks for two 6 foot linkup cat 8’s.