Phono stage options - balanced with XLR both input and output...

@dover Thanks!!

@atmasphere 

The balanced phono inputs were an option. They replaced the RCA's ie - no single ended input with this configuration. Still had the extra 2 RCA's for resistive and capacitive loading though. Designed for use with the 846 line stage. From memory they used mini cannon connectors on the input.

Why do you say it had balanced inputs?

Because every time my mate upgraded his arm we had to re-wire the tonearm cable to balanced configuration.

Its documented in the manual.

Its referred to in an article here - STEREO MAGAZINE Issue 01

Burmester 838 fully symmetrical phono pre-amplifier

@dover Curious. The images I can find don't appear to have a balanced input (only RCA connections), but do have a balanced output. Why do you say it had balanced inputs?

@atmasphere 

Burmester 838 fully symmetrical phono pre-amplifier and the high-level 846 companion unit.  They were being sold here in 1985. Had one in the shop. Very good but still preferred tubes myself. 

Really - I hooked up a Burmester pre with balanced phono inputs back in 1985.

I'd be interested in knowing more about that. To my understanding Burmester introduced their preamp later.

@atmasphere 

Atma-Sphere was the first to offer a balanced phono input, back in 1989. 

Really - I hooked up a Burmester pre with balanced phono inputs back in 1985.

You need the 3rd wire... 

I agree with lewm that cartridges are not inherently balanced (only 2 terminals)

@hagtech A balanced source will not have a center tap. This is because a center tap will decrease the Common Mode Rejection Ratio (CMRR) on account of the fact that the center tap (even if caused by two matched resistors) can never truly be center. So phono cartridges are indeed a balanced source, as are dynamic microphones (which are similar in that they are simply a moving coil attached to a diaphragm). Tape heads are also a balanced source (whether used that way or not).

One proof of a balanced source is to reverse its connections at the source. This will merely invert phase. If its a single-ended source, the reversal will result in a loud buzz. The ground connection is only used for shielding so no signal currents are passed through the ground. This is another reason why center taps are never used since they will result in some signal current in the otherwise neutral shield.

Almost all tonearms have 5 wires; 4 signal wires and the ground. These are balanced sources; when used single-ended you wind up with that 'ground wire' and a buzz will result if its not connected. A real single-ended source would not need a ground wire. But if you are connecting a balanced source to a single-ended input, you have to sort out what to do with the ground connection and using the ground wire is the best technique.

I have a BMC MCCI Signature ULN phono stage listed on Audiogon now that is fully balanced in and out. It was one of two phono stages I settled on after considering a number that were suggested to me by the community, and I documented it on this thread.

If you have a moving coil cartridge, it is well-worth looking into. My reason for selling it is that I recently became a dealer for other brands and cannot afford to keep it given the inventory I am accumulating. Reviews on it are all very positive as well. 

Hold it! I am on the side that says phono cartridges, except for a very few that use a common ground, ARE inherently balanced in the sense that they CAN deliver a balanced signal. Mijostyn, my point was that when used to deliver a balanced signal, the signal ground floats. There is no ground connection on a cartridge. When wired for SE operation we choose one side as signal ground arbitrarily and take signal off the other end.

@hagtech ​​@lewm , phono cartridges are indeed balanced items. Just because the device does not have a third ground wire does not mean it is not balanced. In this case it is the tonearm that is grounded by the third wire.

Or the third rail? 😎

It is hard to have a motor with one side pushing and pulling and the other side somehow at zero.

Teac PE-505

+1 Coda 06x; the sleeper of all mentioned. The best solid state phono stage I've owned.

@hagtech ​​@lewm , phono cartridges are indeed balanced items. Just because the device does not have a third ground wire does not mean it is not balanced. In this case it is the tonearm that is grounded by the third wire. Ground is separated from the signal which is balanced push-pull.

I will shortly be turning over my Schroder to XLRs, it might take me 20 minutes.

Aqvox phono 2Ci balanced in-out

Phono signals are really small, especially on MC, so

Run fully balanced.

Every time.

The newish Accuphase C-47 is fully balanced, with one XLR plus 3 RCA.inputs, along with RCA and XLR outputs.

Another Ayre P-5xe fan completely silent reproduces everything well.

Coda 06X

I agree with lewm that cartridges are not inherently balanced (only 2 terminals), but a phonostage input can nevertheless create a balanced situation by providing the common mode reference (ground).  This can be done using a center-tapped primary SUT with center tap to ground, or by using balanced 24k resistors to ground.  Such inputs force the terminals from cartridge into positive and negative polarities with respect to ground.  It's a nice way to reduce hum if proper balanced cabling is used.

In most systems, running the two terminals from a cartridge in single-ended mode is reasonable by typing one of them to ground.  If you have no hum getting injected, you're doing just fine.

My new ARCHIVER phonostage does this.  All of the internal circuitry is balanced, including XLR outputs.  

P S Audio Stellar.....$2500 of pure sweetness....Blew away my more expensive Parasound phono amp.

Just because a piece of equipment has balance in or out connects does not mean its balanced. A true balanced piece of equipment from end put to out put has always sounded better to me

CS port has balanced in and outputs, its Tube and battery operated.

atmasphere

Atma-Sphere was the first to offer a balanced phono input, back in 1989. The sales manager of ARC contacted me about how that connection was done ... and a couple of years later ARC had a balanced input. To my understanding they didn’t keep it on their preamps ...

That timeline sounds about right, @atmasphere. As I said, ARC’s balanced components date back to the mid-90s. All the Ref series preamps and phono preamps are fully balanced, differential designs.

You're mistaken - ARC was building balanced, differential amplifiers and preamplifiers long before the design became popular. The Reference One preamp goes back to the mid-90s, for example.

@cleeds Atma-Sphere was the first to offer a balanced phono input, back in 1989. The sales manager of ARC contacted me about how that connection was done (mijostyn and lewm did a good job of explaining it above) since he saw us demoing it in a store in LA back about 1992; I sent him a copy of our MP-1 owner's manual that explains the connection and a couple of years later ARC had a balanced input.

To my understanding they didn't keep it on their preamps, likely because dealers didn't like changing tonearm cables in order to audition the preamp in stores so they went back to single-ended. I was too dumb to sort that out and so maintained balanced inputs. After 30 years this sort of thing is a lot more common, but 30 years ago was a different world...

Hello mijostyn

It is my understanding now that the Aesthetixs I/O first stage is SE not balanced. Therefore the reason for using a SE cable.

‘I wish manufacturers would stop putting XLR/Balanced connectors on equipment that’s not truly balanced. I don’t see any benefit in doing that. It is my understanding that the I/O does have a true Balanced output.

Sorry for the confusion on my part.

Joe

Ayre

Ayre P-5xe

I confess lack of knowledge about the very latest ARC preamps. If the internal circuitry is balanced in the strict sense of that term, then I must apologize for conveying the wrong idea. Certainly classic ARC units were not balanced, eg, SP10, 11, etc.

went to ph2 website. Mea culpa. It’s balanced.

+1 Zesto Audio. Very quiet, excellent sound quality, balanced in and out.

 I don't know what's inside your PH2, but AR is not known for balanced circuits.

I think what @lewm is saying is that Audio Research equipment is not AES48 compliant.

Mike

Pretty sure the BAT (Balanced Audio Technology) phono stages are balanced in and out. Had a VK p 10 SE with Supercaps that was outstanding

Older unit though, and after 20 years became noisy. 

Holmz, the presence of XLR connectors does not necessarily mean that the signal is treated in balanced mode. I don’t know what’s inside your PH2, but AR is not known for balanced circuits.

There is a better chance of a balanced circuit when we see an XLR.
Certainly the odds are stacking up in our favor there.

When I see an RCA I assume that it is single ended, however I suspect that there could be 1 or 2 where the shell is isolated from the chassis and not connected chassis ground, but to a differential input… which would help with CMRR.

One needs 2 wires for a twisted pair and also for a CMRR balanced circuit.
The 3rd with is for a shell, but it is not absolutely required to be an XLR to be balanced.

it would be rare though.

I really like my Elac PPA-2, it's surprisingly good and has bested the few others I've tried.  I use XLR/balanced for input and output (for the first time with this one).

It is starting to glitch, and I am considering purchasing another one ('preowned'), but before I do wanted to check here what options you know of in terms of fully balanced phono stages with XLR input and output.

If that company is still in business couldn’t you send in your unit for a repair?

If they cannot repair it, then I would not be looked for another one used.
But of you like it, then why change now?

Boulder. All their gear is balanced, but their entry level phono is $5000 so there is that.

lewm

AR is not known for balanced circuits.

You're mistaken - ARC was building balanced, differential amplifiers and preamplifiers long before the design became popular. The Reference One preamp goes back to the mid-90s, for example.

Zestos Andros Deluxe 2 (I own one) has balanced inputs and transformer coupled outputs.  Overall It is VERY quiet, and is at least as quiet as the solid state Pass XP15 that preceded it.  Using quiet American NOS 12DW7s and 12DF7 IIRC. 

Very interesting info, I now know a lot more thanks to you all!

I'll check out the ones you mention - AudioSpecials Phonolab has a sort of 'mini XLR' connection I've never seen before.

I tried XLR/balanced all the way on my Elac PPA-2, and it sounds awesome. I was curious about tube (or hybrid) balanced options. I tend to stay away in general from hot running gear as I am located in south FL and have a small listening room, but expect that there are phono stages that don’t emit that much heat (I have had a tube phono preamp which was nice and didn’t run too warm, single-ended though).

I realize I forgot to mention that MC is preferred as I use a Sumiko Starling cart and want to avoid step up transformer.

There is no ground at the cartridge if run in balanced mode. A cartridge has two terminals which may be used to derive positive and negative phases, respectively, of a balanced signal. OR one side is grounded and output is taken from the remaining terminal, in an SE setup. I have no idea what Mijo means when he says that SE "strangles" the signal, but there are some advantages to balanced mode operation. like common mode noise rejection and added gain, compared to the exact same cartridge and phono set up in SE mode. I have never had a hum or buzz problem in a balanced phono set-up. But I also have an SE system that sounds wonderful. Based on experience, I am not dogmatic about balanced operation but I do prefer it. Holmz, the presence of XLR connectors does not necessarily mean that the signal is treated in balanced mode. I don't know what's inside your PH2, but AR is not known for balanced circuits.

Even my old, last millenium, ARC PH2 has balance in and out.

@joenies , the phonograph cartridges starts out life as a "balanced" item, Plus, Minus and Ground. Why anyone would think strangling it with a Single Ended cable sounds better is beyond me. There are specific specifications for professional balanced equipment that many consumer electronics companies overlook. Your problem is going to be balanced termination on the tonearm cables. Anyone who is familiar with male XLR connectors can exchange the RCAs in a heartbeat. Pin 2 is plus, pin 3 is minus and pin 1 is ground which is usually left open as most tonearms have a separate ground wire. 

@lewm , you always forget Channel D.

@lewm "Some use a transformer or a chip to simulate balanced input or output."

Would you elaborate on this? Why is a transformer an emulation? 

Of course if the OP meant fully differential from input to output that is a very different thing. Since that would involve two riaa fillter sections per channel not sure how many times this is done.

CH Precision

DSA Phono

Atma-sphere MP1 and MP3

There are more but I cannot conjure up the names offhand.

Be careful that you are getting a unit with a true balanced circuit inside.  Many companies obfuscate on that.  Some use a transformer or a chip to simulate balanced input or output.

I have in my collection a Aesthetix I/O Eclipse. It has both balanced and SE inputs and outputs.

‘When I upgraded my phono cable I asked my audio dealer about going with a balanced cable. He informed me that even though the I/O has balanced input and the circuit is a balanced design that the designer of the I/O (Mr Jim White) doesn’t recommend going with a balanced input. His opinion was that a SE works/sounds better. My dealer got into the technicalities of why but the info was above my understanding at that time. I do run a balanced output. So I took his advice and got a SE phono cable.

Both would work. Maybe one day I’ll buy a balanced phono cable and judge for myself. Cables can be expensive to very expensive.

Joe Nies

Aesthetix Rhea has balanced and SE connections

AudioSpecials Phonolab is balanced input and output. And really good. Different price point though. 

As much as I like balanced I wouldn't focus on it when trying to find the best phono imho.

Solypsa Audio