Phono Stage Amp

@dawgfish 

I am isolating the TT away from the speakers as of now.

I scanned other responses and didn't seem to see this idea -- apologize if it's already been mentioned.  But turntables don't like vibrations; they're much more susceptible to vibrations causing distortions than, say, a CD player.  Maybe when you crank up the volume, your speakers are causing enough vibrations that the turntable's tracking is getting compromised.  Just a thought.

Good luck investigating and correcting the problem.

Happy listening,

Dawgfish

+1 @mulveling

sort out your phono stage cart mismatch first by either a SUT or stronger phono stage 66-72db. Hopefully this will be enough volume boost to satisfy, otherwise you’ll need more amp power or a more efficient speaker

@cinqcepages -

     Post any progress, please.

@rodman99999 I finally started with your recommendation, I picked up a cheapy cart. It arrives tomorrow. MM. 

That is the fastest and easiest test. And it gives me a spare cart as well, when I am done changing / upgrading.

@mulveling I am doing it all it all except the TT and Tonearm. The Bob's; the E-GLO and a cartridge.

May I ask one last question? Within a $500 range: what cartridge would fit in nicely with those and my 11.1? And so I understand you - why MM or why MC at this point with this whole new solution?

I do appreciate your advice and time spent with me. KARMA Maybe sometime I will somehow with or without you knowing - have helped you or someone you know, out.

@clearthinker Thank you.

@ditusa Without feedback. 845 tubes.

@cinqcepages,

Just a thought, do you run the Cary 805 amp with or without feedback?

Mike 

Good proposal to connect 200wpc.  If this solves problem, it exonerates the TT and front end.

@whyduhitme   Starting again here.  You don't get the fuzz on other inputs than phono.  So try a different phono amp as I note the MA252 has no MC input.  I don't see why changing the phono amp prevents you plugging into the line level inputs on the MA252 as you do now.   I assume you get equal fuzz in both channels?  Check the settings on the Mofo are suitable for the cart.

cinquepages,

mulveling beat me to it, and blesses you with the gain calculation! I can only add a couple things.

Since the SLP-05 has input level controls, where do you have them set when playing vinyl? If you haven't tried turning up the input levels, it's definitely worth a shot. You'd need to be careful to turn them back down for digital.

And in spite of the review that said the single ended inputs sound better than the balanced, with many pieces using XLRs gives up to a 6db increase, so that's also worth a try.

David

     Just my prediction:

     The system will sound much better with an MM cartridge, or SUT, but: still lack his digital's OOMPH, unless the OP uses a juicier (higher voltage output) phono stage.

                                       Happy listening!

If you like the sound with your digital source gear just just replace your current cartridge with one of higher output.

You can get a nice 1.0 mv Grado for $600 as well as gobs of high output MM's

 in the same and even lower price range.

Assume that they (even though less expensive) would sound better than the current mismatch you are dealing with.

If the dealer who originally set you up is local have them install it.

DeKay

@ditusa No the cat eye never has. I eventually turned it off. Figured if I ever sell the unit, it would be good if it worked. Eye candy, but not so much.

I do appreciate your help. Here was my thing: I had enough money but not the experience to think it through and plan my outfit. Instant gratification was more the thing. Plus: I WANT TUBES. Why? Don't those McIntosh look great? But not the right reason to buy gear.   

I do feel stuck. I don't have the money now; at lease disposable. And I am getting old. Already thinking about my daughter having to get rid of my junk.....

@mulveling For now, One more question; or asking for verification:

TT -> SUT -> MF M1 (MF M1 input from SUT is MM not MC) then lastly, Care in choosing RCA.

Ground from TT to SUT and, if necessary, ground also from SUT to MF M1

Am I understanding?

Yes! Perfect. Usually the SUT should become the grounding point from your turntable. Usually you don't need or want an additional ground run from SUT to Phono Stage. Just use short, shielded, low capacitance cables from the SUT and follow the arrows (shield terminated on the SUT side).

And If I add a higher output Cartridge it would be a bit better as well.

Higher output is easier to work with in general (0.25mV is always at least a bit tricky), but you would not want to use it with a 30x SUT, or maybe even a SUT at all. Depending on its output level it may be fine with the M1's MC mode. In my experience, cartridges of 0.5mV - 0.8mV work well with a 60 dB phono stage. But a 15x SUT will work nicely with those 0.5 - 0.8mV cartridges too, and you can order the Bob's Sky 30x / 15x switchable :)  

Thank you for your help. The more I think about it - this has to be it. I do get great volume from the CD and DAC for rock music. No distortion. Even the loud mayhem type rock like metal. Sometimes I just like to hear the JAZZ a litter louder than it lets me.  

I absolutely love playing heavy metal, loud, on my Tannoy speakers or Stax headphones :) 

@mulveling For now, One more question; or asking for verification:

TT -> SUT -> MF M1 (MF M1 input from SUT is MM not MC) then lastly, Care in choosing RCA.

Ground from TT to SUT and, if necessary, ground also from SUT to MF M1

Am I understanding?

And If I add a higher output Cartridge it would be a bit better as well.

Thank you for your help. The more I think about it - this has to be it. I do get great volume from the CD and DAC for rock music. No distortion. Even the loud mayhem type rock like metal. Sometimes I just like to hear the JAZZ a litter louder than it lets me.  

@cinqcepages,

I am running 805's out of the 4ohms. Was my assumption wrong?

No! But, I would try all three output taps and use the one that sounds best.

Mike😎

@twoleftears My speakers show 50 - 100 watts and they show 4Ohms.

I am running 805's out of the 4ohms. Was my assumption wrong?

@mulveling Thank you.

Don't the 805's have multiple taps; which ones are you using?

MC input Frequency response RIAA/IEC ±0.2dB Input sensitivity 300µV in for 300mV out (at 1 kHz) Input impedance 47KΩ THD at 1 kHz 88dB “A”-wtd. Line level outputs 1 pair RCA (phono) left and right 300mV rms nominal

No dip switches.

Are you suggesting Bob’s Sky 30 SUT? I looked it up and am reviewing it. It seems very reasonable and affordable. My MF is 10+ years old.

Ah, that indeed appears to be a different version than the "M1VINL" we were looking up. This one’s spec’d 300uV to 300mV is better (60dB versus 56dB), but still too low for that cartridge IMO.

I have a couple of the Bob’s Devices Sky units, along with many other SUTs too. I almost always prefer a good SUT to an active MC stage, sometimes significantly so. The Sky is a good one, reasonably priced. There are better, but they cost more. Yes, I recommend them with a few caveats:

1. You must carefully match the SUT ratio to your cartridge. 20 - 30 is good for a 0.25mV cartridge. 30 in this case if you keep the M1, because it could use the extra gain.
2. You must use a low-capacitance, short (less than 1m) cable run from the SUT to your MM phono stage (set to 47K load). Bob sells a good 0.8m one for $400.
3. Always run a SUT into an MM stage (or MM mode). NOT into MC!

Move the turntable and see how the system react will not cost anything.

There is an Audio-Technica Signet MK10T step up for sale now @ A'Gon.

Not certain if the 1/15 ratio is enough for your low output cartridge, but others here should know.

If so, it would be an inexpensive experiment.

DeKay

@mulveling My older M1:

MC input Frequency response RIAA/IEC ±0.2dB Input sensitivity 300µV in for 300mV out (at 1 kHz) Input impedance 47KΩ THD at 1 kHz 88dB “A”-wtd. Line level outputs 1 pair RCA (phono) left and right 300mV rms nominal

No dip switches.

Are you suggesting Bob's Sky 30 SUT? I looked it up and am reviewing it. It seems very reasonable and affordable. My MF is 10+ years old. 

@cinqcepages,

FWIW: The cat Eye tube upfront as output level indicator. If that cat’s eye ever blinks shut while you’re playing your tunes, you’ve reached full power from the Cary 805 amp.

Below is from Stereophile measurements:

Cary 805 amp voltage gain averaged 23.2dB at 5dB feedback (into an 8 ohm load, slightly less into a 4 ohm load, slightly more into a 16 ohm load). With 0dB of feedback, the gain increased to 25.2dB; with 10dB of feedback it dropped to 18.2dB (all into an 8 ohm load).

Mike

The root problem is WHY crank the volume up just past half way and there tends to be distortion.

If the M1 can’t provide enough voltage to feed the downstream components, then the preamp volume control should be able to turn all the way to max to add gain. It may increase noise level but not distortion.

In theory that’s fine, but especially with TT gear involved, my experience is that if you don’t keep the signal in a "sweet spot" range at EVERY stage, bad things happen - and at best, suboptimal sound is the result. OP needs to fix the phono stage mismatch either way.

If OP gets a better phono stage and the distortion still remains at higher listening levels, then other potential culprits like feedback (solutions: better isolation, or simply moving the table, maybe a subsonic rumble filter...) should be examined in further detail. One problem at a time...

However your current phono stage / cartridge match is DEFINITELY a problem; it’s just that you may be dealing with multiple issues here.

@mulveling

The root problem is WHY crank the volume up just past half way and there tends to be distortion.

If the M1 can’t provide enough voltage to feed the downstream components, then the preamp volume control should be able to turn all the way to max to add gain. It may increase noise level but not distortion.

I have the same problem with the Mofo phono stage.  I get a fuzz sound at higher volume.  Clear audio concept, Hana mC, McIntosh ma252, Wilson watt puppy 7.

everything sounds great until I get a little past 50% volume.  There’s no noise running my DAC or CD player.  I believe changing my phono will also involve a new integrated amplifier.

@cinqcepages not sure what the 11.1 went for new, but the newest 11.3 is $4999, so yea not a cheapie.

@cinqcepages

What is the output of the E.A.T E-Glo Petit?

E-Glo max gain is 70 dB. For your 0.25mV Goldring, that gives an output of about 0.8 Volts (790 milliVolts). On paper, it’s a good choice. Your current M1 yields only 0.15 Volts (149 mV) for that same cartridge. It will be a massive difference. Your M1 phono stage’s MC mode is certainly targeted at medium output MC cartridges, not low outputs like 0.25mV.

Alternatively a Bob’s Devices Sky 30 SUT would add ~ 29dB (maybe a little less due to loading losses) to your M1’s 40 dB / 47K MM mode, and nets close to the same result as the E-Glo’s highest 70dB gain. But even 40dB is on the low side for an MM stage. Musical Fidelity isn't very generous with their dB's!

Others are very correct to point out the mismatch between amp & speakers, and potential TT isolation issues. However your current phono stage / cartridge match is DEFINITELY a problem; it’s just that you may be dealing with multiple issues here. I’d fix the phono stage first, since as you mentioned the system works well with digital sources (usually at least 2 Volts output).

@armstrod 

What is the output of the E.A.T E-Glo Petit?

@audioguy85 

The TT; Cartridge and Tonearm all came in at $2,000. Yes, not cheap. But compared to what many others have, maybe not comparable. But I do like it.

I see a wide range of cartridges in terms of cost. Some many more times the cost of my TT. My system is a mish mash of disparate units except for consistent Cary Audio.

@rodman99999 You make very good points.

My setup is a result of buying from "auctions" and assembling at half price retail. I did not do research beyond reviews. Is Cary Audio liked? Yes, so I went with it. Did Totem get good reviews? Yes, so I went with them. 

But had I done real research I would not have the same system.

On a side note: I also have a pair of Totem Mani-two that are even harder to drive.

Totem Acoustic Mani-2 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com

You guys give me a lot to think about. All good information. That is what I was hoping for. Then using my analytical skills (IT pro) to single out the most logical.

I did not mention my DAC. Although the musical reproduction is sad compared to the vinyl (through Bluetooth) - the volume is good with no distortion. As is the CD.

But the comment about underpowered mono blocks IS CORRECT. And of the Speakers IS CORRECT. But those are pricey decisions.

I have a Cary Audio SS 200SE or something like that. 200 WPC. I will temporarily hook that up while I research a new cartridge and phono stage using pre-mentioned advice.

a HUGE thank you to everyone who replied. Great group. 

@cinqcepages -

                       Woof brings up an interesting point.

     Have you experimented with your loading buttons?

     The recommendation for the Legacy is 100 Ohms, which the M1 provides.

     Too high an input impedance on the M1, could be a major issue, with a LOMC.

Pretty Expensive speakers for a mid - level system with a low level turntable and a mini - mite Amplifier....Get a new amp (200 W minimum) and then upgrade your Music Hall....Then you can start to enjoy your new system.

Lots of phono stages do not put out the same level as other components.  So you have to turn up your amp to get the same loudness.  Which is taxing on the amp.  Sounds like you should try a more powerful amp.

Could the issue be an ultrasonic peak of the Mc cartridge causing clipping at higher volumes? Think about cartridge loading. MC carts typically have increasing output as frequency increases, well into the ultrasonic range. Load resistors tamp this down. 

If your phono stage does not have a way of adding load, you can load your cart output at the turntable output with a little bit of gerryrigging.

Would not call or consider a music hall 11.1 low end...it's not exactly cheap....

@cinqcepages -

     Probably: the least expensive experiment, in order to narrow down your issue, would be to purchase/mount the cheapest MM cart available and see if it results in a satisfying SPL.

                ie:

https://www.turntablelab.com/collections/best-turntable-cartridges-by-price-ttl-levels

      Alternately: an SUT (easier to install/more expensive, probably), but: may increase noise/hum.

      Personally: I'd be looking for a phono stage, capable of outputting between 1 and 2V, with greater gain than 60dB in the MC stage. 

     From the OP:

"... with volume halfway up on the SLP-05 using an Audia Flight CD* player the volume is very high and no distortion."

     From the previously cited M1** review:

"I just want to add that, while the gain for the MM stage is 40 dB, the classic one, for the MC is below 60 dB. This will require a deep attention to the level of the cartridge output and, chiefly, to the input sensitivity of the other components of the audio chain, which has to be progressive, otherwise the risk is that the system will not perform correctly, also with very expensive components. This is a universal rule. Keep it always in mind when you assemble your hi-fi system."

                                   *2V max output           **300mV max output

I have the SLP 05 with two Primaluna Dialogue 7 monoblocks. I use speakers with powered bass, GoldenEar Triton Reference. No power problem. You could get more amps and biwire your speakers.

agree 15W or 10W or whatever is way too little for 87dB speakers, but the distrtion problem goes away when he changes source.

@cinqcepages

What model are your Cary mono blocks? How old are the output tubes?
Chances are you’re on the low end of what those speakers really need.

All the best.

Altec Valencia's + the Cary 805's would crush the Totem Winds!

@ditusa and Jason have nailed it.  Nothing to do with cart or phono stage.  Or acoustic feedback.  Or TT isolation!!

15w of Cary fleapower won't drive the the 87dB grossly inefficient Totems.  So it sounds fine when underdriven but is probably bleeding out 5% distortion when you up the volume.

Only three solutions:

1.   If you like the sound, don't up the volume.

2.   Ditch the fleapower Cary if you like the Totems and get an amp giving 200w or so with a decent power supply section.

3.   If you like the Cary, get speakers with around 100dB sensitivity.  You'll be limited to horns, just like all the other fleapower users.

The Vincent PHO 701 is a tube phono pre amp its output is greater than the MF, also the wide dynamic range will assist. Gets very good reviews. Whilst not into vinyl, anymore, I have heard it perform very well with tube amplification.