I'm beginning to poke around and gather opinions and information about a "super speaker" to replace my aging Thiel 2.4s. I like the idea of bass dsp room correction and I am a bit of a point source type imaging nut (thus the Thiels). So among other choices I've been looking at the Paradigm Persona series specifically the powered 9H with room correction for the bass. However I'm skeptical of the "lenses" i.e. pierced metal covers on the midrange and tweeter specifically because of Paradigm's claim that such screens "screen out" "out of phase" musical information. The technology in the design seems superlative but I just can't get past the claim re out of phase information and the midrange and tweeter covers. What could possibly be the science behind this claim? It just seems like its putting a halloween moustache on the mona lisa given the fact that the company is generally a technology driven company.
Wcfeil if you read the post from the customer who we flew to CA to tune his system before you and your negative attacks caused the post to be taken down.
We totally transformed his sound from ok to something very special through a cable change, a dac change footers stein harmonizer power conditioning and power cables.
Grgr4blu, we were the dealer at the New York show they did sound good for the money, if you were off access perhaps they sounded a bit bright but give us a break it was still a hotel room, you actually said something nice and yes you can tame them with the right stuff they definately need warmer solid state like Dag or T+A gear or good tubes.
Greginnh, we have a very different approach then your dealer who I know who it is,found pictures on their website you don’t remember we talked once before about the T+A gear and knowing you have the Gato gear and figuring out this dealer sells Luxman, Naim they jut got the line, Paradigm and Kef it wasn’t difficult.
Our demo room with the 9H uses echo buster panels on the walls behind the speakers, shakti hollographs, acoustic system resonators, stein harmonizers, a critical mass rack and center stage footers, Furutech NCF boosters, Audio magic power conditioning, Enklekin cabling and T+A electronics with a Light Harmonic Davinci Dac being fed by a $15k Baetis server.
Our approach is to use room tuning products, cabling, power conditioners and source components to bring out the qualities we want and amelerorate the qualties we don’t. There is an art to tunning.
We can also demonstrate that removing these items one by one totally destroys the sound, and it is not just the Personas all high resolution systems benefit from footers, racks, room tuning devices etc.
Also our main demo room is 26 by 20 with 10 foot ceiling, don’t think your dealer has a single room of that size.
Yes our Persona 9H is pretty magical especially on the Davinci which although is a $35k dac is one of the most remarkable front end imaginable.
Greginnh you are welcome to come visit us if you are in the area and see for yourself. This is a true reference system that to our ears betters many $300k systems, the only thing it lacks it the image size of a much larger speaker system. We have had many customers who have said this system is spooky in its reacreation of an event.
@gpgr4blu - I know you said that you heard Persona 9H at your dealer. The problem is that you did not hear them at Audio Doctor NJ. According to Audiotroy, it is a magical place that possess special powers (perhaps brought to him from extraterrestrials), coupled with his infinite and vastly superior knowledge of all things audio, to provide you with an auditory experience second to none - in fact, far exceeding the design expectations, voicing and performance contemplated by the brands he represents. LOL!
Audiotroy sells again. He just can’t help it. Like the tale of the scorpion and the frog---it’s in his nature. When I first heard the Persona 9Hs at the NY audio show a few years ago, I thought they were good for the $ but a bit on the bright side. When I heard them again at a dealer, I heard the same thing. I posted my conclusions here on Audiogon. I stand by them. And since I know how to accessorize (with cabling especially), I believe they could be tamed. But taming they do require.
Mofojo, did you notice that Revel changed the tweeter from Titanium to Beryillium in the later incarnation of the Salon's did you ever wonder why, also there are very few people talking about them so if they were the class leader they would be generating a lot more excitement on these boards.
Bill_K you missed our point entirely, yes an anchoic room has no reflections and are designed to allow for good measurements.
If you design a speaker with a rising top end it may mean that the designers felt that the speakers would sound more exciting for one, for two many audiophiles who are older have dips in their hearing and three many audio room are Living Rooms with lots of absorbtative furniture.
Would the Personas or any other super clean loudspeakers sound good in a sparsely furnished room probably not, the demo we did with the 3F was in a large room it had carpeting and drapes, and big couches and the 3F on the Naim gear sounded fantastic in that room without a lick of hardness.
Remember one persons bright is another person's detailed and alive, one person's musical is another persons's dull and lifeless.
@audiotroy - With all due respect regarding your post above, an anechoic chamber (an-echoic meaning "non-reflective, non-echoing, echo-free") is a room designed to effectively absorb any reflections of sound. So any "normal" (non-anechoic) listening room even with acoustic treatments will inherently have more reflective surfaces and therefore be more lively (brighter) than an anechoic chamber, not less so. If you’ve ever been in such a chamber it is an eerily quiet and dead sounding environment, so if a speaker is measured to have significant peaks in response anechoically it will only be exacerbated by the additional reflectivity of a non-anechoic room.
This has nothing to do with being flat or rolled off. The FR with wild swings of -/+ 5 dB indicates some serious issues, most likely from the midrange breakup area (5-8Khz). Also, unacceptable THD in the upper mid.
Your take on the Revels is complete BS as being boring boring boring as you said. Just make all these accommodations as you say the paradigms need. Cables brighter amp may do it for the Reveles huh?
Science cop how come then so many people find them to be absolutely fantastic when paired with the right electronics, I guess they must sound bright and coarse, in our setup with the T+A and Naim electronics the speakers sound fantastic.
Measurements in an anchoic chamber do not guarantee results in the real world.
In a real world envionrment you will generally have absorbtave materials which will tame the top end with the result of a balanced sound in the actual listening room.
So perhaps if you have a super spartan room these speakers may not be for you.
Conversely a speaker which might measure flat to slightly rolled off in an anchoic room may sound completely dull in a real world enviornment.
Take your pick. It is easier to absorb excess energy it is nearly impossible to add more clarity to a dull sounding loudspeaker.
I will say that the Persona mid/highs measurements in the NRC are horrendous. A beryllium midrange, if not damped will ring like a bell. These speaker are bright and coarse, subjectively and objectively. This may be the right speakers for the aging audiophiles 😉
greginnhMuch Thanks! for the update. Although, I have not auditioned the Tell-Q, I have listened to Audience (pre-SX series) and found that brand very good. Keep me posted on your next cabling brand. Happy Listening!
@jafant - I actually (stupidly) sold my TQ cables a while ago. I have been using Audience and just upgraded from the AU 24 SX to the Front Row. The cable is amazing but a bit too revealing for my rig. I actually just listed them so sale here this morning.
greginnhHappy New Year- are you thinking about changing out Tellurium Q cabling in your system? Excellent advice about working one's way through various levels or tiers of a certain brand. I did it with Transparent Audio's MM2 series. Happy Listening!
@david_ten - you are absolutely correct on this. Most dealers have a fairly substantial collection of demo cables. I just went through that process this weekend, auditioning 4 levels of a certain brand.
It’s the only way to know for sure. Notably, the most expensive cable may not necessarily play well with one's own personal rig.
It has been difficult for me to find a dealer where you can hear various cables to determine if there is a difference. I am a beginner and need to learn more.
The best way to audition cables is within your own system.
A knowledgeable and experienced dealer can be very helpful in advising you on matching and achieving personal and system outcomes; but, I advise against direct auditioning of cables at the dealer.
It seems like speaker cables must have some effect. It has been difficult for me to find a dealer where you can hear various cables to determine if there is a difference. I am a beginner and need to learn more.
I listened to a lot of speakers before I purchased my Paradigm Prestige 85F towers. Many sounded too bight like the Martin Logan Motion 60's and I couldn't understand why the Bowers & Wilkins dealer was so in love with them. I thought the CM 10 and 804's lacked bass. I just wish I had held off and not purchased my Paradigm's. The mid's act as both a mid bass and a mid voice speaker and I think a 2 1/2 design is asking this speaker to do too much. They sound to harsh when listening to vocals. Now it is difficult to convince the wife I want to get rid of them and purchase the SALK Song3 Encore's. Those are just incredible in that $6,000 price point. He uses expensive drivers and his 4 inch mid driver really is fast and very musical. Vocals really sound incredible and so does the bass.
I am surprised no one mentions ARCAM. I compared the ARCAM AVR85 against an MacIntosh and the ARCAM just knocked its sock off. Incredible detail.
As a beginner there is so much to learn and as a result I really appreciate learning from everyone here.
Prof setup is key and that obviously includes the room.
Again in the example sited above, the same room and listening postion, different equipment and cabling and the Persona speakers sounded exceptional or just okay dependong on the gear setup the room and listening position didn't change only the gear, and that was the critical take away, the room does make a difference the equipment is as important if not more so.
We are not saying that the room doens’t make a difference it does, but without the right gear the speakers will not sound good no matter what..
System one: Classe Cap 2100 Blue Sound Node crappy Monster cables original Dali Helicons sounded great, Personas better in some way not better in others.
1: Add Dac and real cabling big improvment in clarity, soundstaging.
2: Replaced crappy speaker cables with better cabling and again huge improvement.
3: Still similar outcomes the Personas didn’t sound way better than just different.
4: Switched out electronics and boom magic on the Personas.
Yes fortunately or unfortunately expensive cabling, dacs, electronics make a huge difference and can make or break a particular set of loudspeakers, and in this demo the room was the same in ordinary Living Room, no treatments etc,
Rivondale, just switching out one variable can mean that your amplifier might not sound good with a particular set of loudspeakers.
We had a client come into the shop with a Belles Aria which makes a great match with Vandy’s plays the same amp on the Kef’s and the Unision Research Primo blew it away in most areas.
It is all about synergy, when demoing just one product you must be aware that sometimes if you like certain aspects of a systems sound you may need to change your electronics, cabling, or source components until you create the right balance.
Prof1 high end audio is more like high end cooking it is finding ingredients which work to balance out each other.
What I find interesting
in your post about the customer's in-home setup
is the complete lack of discussion about speaker and listening
positioning, the room itself, and acoustic treatments / furniture
therein, all of which affect perceived sound quality much more than
~$25,000 worth of electronics and cables.
+1 The high end audio salesmen seem to rarely mention the most obvious, critical factors in a set up, especially if someone has a sonic issue. Rather conveniently, instead they are happy to sell you a new cable, DAC, amp etc to "fix" the problem. "Sound too bright? We have an expensive cable for that!"
If you’re going to keep addressing me and implying I have some hidden agenda, the least you could do is spell my username correctly.
I don’t have an agenda. I simply shared my experiences with the Persona 3F speakers as compared to a number of others I listened to, in the same room, in the same location on the floor, on the same day, on my amp, with the same music, with no other variables.
You stated above: "[A] speaker with . . . a high frequency peak will sound brighter." Correct. That’s exactly what I said. This speaker has a peak at 10 kHz, and a depression in the mids, which makes it sound brighter. People should know that going in. It doesn’t mean that some won’t like that response, but I and many others in this thread certainly did not. I did not say anything about flat responses generally, nor do I believe that measurements are the only thing to consider. But measurements do tell an important part of the story.
What is YOUR agenda?
According to your last post, the Persona 3F are amazing speakers, but only after one has spent $4,000 on a new T+A DAC, thousands of dollars on a new power conditioner and power cables, and thousands of dollars on new Wireworld Silver Eclipse speaker cables and interconnects. Oh, and let’s not forget $13,000 on new Naim electronics to drive them.
What I find interesting in your post about the customer’s in-home setup is the complete lack of discussion about speaker and listening positioning, the room itself, and acoustic treatments / furniture therein, all of which affect perceived sound quality much more than ~$25,000 worth of electronics and cables.
One must only look in your signature line to see your agenda: "Audio Doctor NJ Persona [did you mean Paradigm?] and Naim dealers." Nice sales pitch. I (and I assume many others) will continue to treat your posts with the huge grain of salt they deserve. All the best.
Ditto Benzman, we just demoed a pair of the Persona 3F at a clients house, and the results were very interesting.
We came to his house and he had a Classe Cap 2100 a very good and respected 2010? integrated amp with a Bluesound Node2 Monster Cables and a set of Dali Helicon 1.
Decent sound but no real image width or depth and the sound was very cloudy.
We then added a great dac T+A Dac 8 DSD and a set of real cables to the mix, bigger soundstage, greater detail.
Then we added in power conditoner and power cables and the sound of the Dali's was very good finally got a good image floating in space
Now we chaged to the Persona 3F clarity better soundstage beter but the bass on the Dali was better.
Swapped out the crappy $300 Monster Cable with a set of Wireworld Silver Eclipse and boom sounded like a totally different system, huge soundstage, good image float, everything was improved.
Then we swapped in the Personas and the transparency was breathtaking but we all missed some of the Dali richness.
Took our a $13k Naim stack of amp/preamp and boom Personas now had deeper bass and everything was radically improved things floated in space and the midrange was richer and now they sounded like a $20k speaker not ones that sell for $10k.
Go hear the Personas with Naim it is a fantastic combo.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona and Naim dealers
I don’t think half of the dealers Persona’s are broke in. Paradigm will tell you 300 hours. All I can say that with proper cabling and with tubes somewhere in the chain the Persona’s ( I have the 5f’s) are a great speaker. Absolutely kill my previous Magico S3. Without a doubt out of the box with my previous cabling ( Audience AU 24 SX ) they sounded just as a lot of people describe, bright and uninvolving. With a more meaty cable loom of Cerious Technolgies graphene Matrix and a couple of months of break in this is a fantastic speaker. My friends have Martin Logan’s CLX, Wilson’s, Merlin’s, Revel Salons and the all love the Personas. Just have to have the right synergy. Probably some of the finest midrange you will hear in any speaker in its price range. I added Harmonix RF 909 spike bases and took them to another level. This really is a great speaker. Just needs a little time and effort to get there
First off some speakers are designed to be used with grills.
Secondly, I agree that flat response can be boring in a real life room. My favorite speakers are all voiced in real rooms and not in chambers. This is why I'm not a fan of so many of the Canadian brands (totally personal choice).
Any component needs to be part of a system. I don't like some components and never will regardless of what they are paired with.
If you have to 'tune' with cables, then there is a problem with the system IMHO. Give me neutral cables and get a system that sounds great to your ears.
Audiotroy, That wasn't the issue. You specifically asked "How flat the speaker measured." Maybe boring to you, but many people have lauded that speaker over the past 6 to 8 years. Boring is just your opinion. Your arrogance never ceases to amaze me....
"Please Rivonale show me one lauded speaker system measured by Stereophile which actually measures flat?"
Audiotroy, take a look in the Stereophile archives and look at the frequency response plot of the Revel Salon 1 loudspeaker system. Looks impressively flat to me.
Rivionale what's your agenda? You pick on the Persona yes which in the Stereophile measurements has a few peaks and valleys just checked review measurements on
I guess all of these speakers must sound bad based on their measurements what is clear is that none of these speakers measure flat all are higly respected loudpseakes what is clear is that loudspeakers either have rising top ends or top ends with depressions, gee guess what a speaker with a duller top end will sound warmer and one with a high frequency peak will sound brighter.
Please Rivonale show me one highly lauded speaker system measured by Stereophile which actually measures flat?
The art of a good setup is the ability to mix room acoustics, components and source gear into a well balanced sounding system.
Taking one part of the equation out of the entirity of a setup demonstrates nothing but ignorance. If you have a brighter speaker add more absorptave material which could be acoustic panels or pillows.
If your speakers sound too dull add brighter cabling or sources take out overally absorptave materials and add eq if possible.
The Persona speakers seem to be a very polarizing design, with some loving them and others finding them to be too forward and objectionably bright. I've seen both user comments and reviews reflecting this dichotomy with extremely strong voices on both sides. There's no substitute for an in home audition when it comes to selecting speakers, and I think one would be particularly well advised to arrange one before purchasing the Persona speakers.
Chain was Luxman DA-250 DAC into my Schiit Audio Ragnarok integrated amp. Ragnarok is neutral and resolving, so what you’re saying makes sense. What I thought was strange is that I hated the Persona sound, yet use Focal Utopia headphones on the same amp (also a very resolving beryllium design) without the same issues.
riovendale, what was the dealers using for the setup?
If you use them with the wrong electronics they are going to sound like what you describe the Persona's are a much more detailed type of sound then all the other loudspeakers you mentioned we sell the Kef LS 50 and the Kef R11 which definately are a much more laid back sounding product.
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Kef and Persona dealers
The Persona was also my least favorite speaker out of the handful I demoed at a local dealer a few weeks ago: Spendor D7, KEF R11, Klipsch Forte III, KEF LS50, and my favorite by a mile the Aerial Acoustics 6T. Paradigm were detailed, but so uninvolving and bright that I just wanted to keep turning the volume down. Maybe one could live with them if all they listen to is audiophile garbage music that is recorded well.
Regarding the grill price, anything designed and manufactured in a multi-million dollar facility has to reflect that in the price. To do otherwise is unrealistic.
Audiotroy, thanks for your comment. In the past, I always left the system on on, 24/7. The L-590 is the first Class A amp I've ever owned, it gets fairly warm. Not hot, but pretty warm. I'm not comfortable leaving it on constantly. Am I worrying needlessly? Thanks,
What do you think it costs them to make a set of well made grills, you have to make the frame, stretch fabric and cure the glues, then you have to package the grills, Do you honestly think that a large company you are not paying for overhead and labor costs.
Please see if you can make a set of grills including fabric, glues, frame materials, packaging materials and your time for less then $200 unless you are not paying yourself anything try to make two perfect grills yourself especially ones that are as nicely finished as the Personas grills.
Lets look at the issue which you guys aren't factoring in which is dealer cost. The Grills cost $200 or so to make which means they cost Paradigm approx $100 each grill times 2 for a pair = a cost of $200 they are now going to mark them up to make a profit and then the dealer is going to mark them up to make a profit and boom you have expensive grills.
The Paradigm Grills for the Personas are really well made.
Builder you should leave on your electronics 24/7 one they will sound better and two they will last longer. The inrush of current to an electronics device is what causes failure, there are radio stations using gear built 25 years ago that are still working due to this fact.
Yeah, it seems like at times, companies just charge what they’d like to get for products with no relation to their cost.
I think it’s a mistake all brands seem to make. Pricing things based on a nonsensical assumption that people will buy either way is a bad move. Consumers are smarter than that now, and it’s not hard to realize how much a product would realistically cost to make. There is no doubt that they are making a killing off the grills, but it’s still not nearly as bad as what people charge for cables — and that’s a highly praised purchase on here.
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