Paradigm Persona series

david_ten

I'm just fascinated with speakers.   When the opportunity arises to listen to a high end speaker, I take it, even if I've heard it before.

I'd been seriously considering the Persona's early on, with a somewhat positive first encounter (though with caveats), so I gave them another audition not long ago and it gave me a better handle on my feelings about them.   Though I noticed things in the last audition - e.g. about the tone - that didn't stick out the first time.  This was another opportunity to see how they sound in a different set up, powered with different amps etc, as another data point.  It solidified some of my impressions, and since this is the Paradigm Persona thread, and we audiophiles like to talk about our speaker experiences, I'll report mine in a thread like this.

And nothing I've said - zero! - implies my experience is "superior or primary" to anyone else's.  In fact I have been careful to say it's clearly my own subjective reaction.  The speakers leave ME cold, and TO MY ears they sounded X.   I clearly stipulated this was my SUBJECTIVE reaction, rather than just declaring some objective condemnation, like a number of audiophiles tend to do.    I said, as I've said before about the Persona series, I understand why  OTHER PEOPLE like them.   So I have no idea why you are imagining otherwise.

@prof  What's up with the masochism? Despite the ongoing protestations, is it that you enjoy the self torture? : )

It's abundantly clear these speakers are not for you. The repeated insistence appears more an imposition and declaration of your experience as primary and superior to that of others. 

twoleftears,
*bro fist*

@prof  Excellent description!  Aligns exactly with what I heard/how I felt when auditioning the 5's.
Also, though to a lesser extent, applicable to my impression of the Dynaudio Contour 60.

I had a chance to listen to the Persona 7F for a little while today, playing some audiophile-approved tracks.

Yeah, those speakers just leave me cold.   They certainly can sound clear especially in the high frequencies.  But overall I had the same impression as the last audition - they just don't sound timbrally organic or convincing to me.   Everything sounds "canned" or slightly glazed, and when I close my eyes there are all sorts of "clear/clean" sounding acoustic objects presented to me, guitar, drums, percussion, etc.  But they have the same grayish tonal "color" and my mind has to really work to untangle one instrument timbrally from the other.

A competent speaker, and I understand anyone else enjoying it, but my subjective reaction is just..."meh."

I think the point about cubic feet, and room acoustics is valid and waf. But I think if somebody’s in deep with a mark levinson or any other ‘premium ‘ brand i would definitely avoid starting over. Thats where audiotroy just plows straight ahead, they talk like the average audiophile has unlimited funds and to that logic everything else they say makes perfect sense. Why they preach it so furiously on a used gear forum is probably why they get a bit of attitude from time to time. 

@audiotroy @kren0006 Thank you for your detailed responses. I appreciate them.

However, I still don’t find (in your posts) convincing rationale that points to and informs the necessity and importance (and criticality) of speaker first over amplification, or any other major component, for that matter.

I understand that the majority of audiophiles fall into (practice) the speaker first camp, but so far (based on the above posts) it seems more about comfort level, familiarity, history and preference rather than specific deal breakers should one choose not to go with a speaker first approach.

Audiotroy’s point on the hassle factor relating to speaker size (unpacking/repacking, movement, positioning, shipping costs, etc.) is certainly a factor, though one focused on convenience (and not a disqualifier).

Good thread. 

Bottom line is that it's still all a system and needs to be chosen as a system.  Regardless if you chose a speaker or source first, you need to set a legit budget and figure out where to spend it.  

I have spent a lot of time with a few high end manufacturers recently and they all said the same thing.  A good line of speakers will scale.  Way too many people purchase a speaker that is one above what they probably need and don't have the budget for the better source which is where it all starts.  Preamp is next in the electronics jungle and then amp.  

Begin with the most you can afford and then end with the best your budget will allow, but make sure you have enough for a great pre and then amp.  

If you like Vandersteen, Magico, Wilson, B&W, ML, Maggies or whatever, then go with that line, but if you are going to spend a lot more on one part of the chain, do it at the source is what most are saying.  Most folks don't get to hear the lower price in the line with better source and maybe even a step up in electronics (over what they would be left to afford if they buy the next speaker up in a line).

AT, I agree with your speaker thoughts for the most part.  That said, I was at a dealer last week who had Wilson Alexia's in a small bedroom and they sounded incredible.  Overkill?  Of course, but with the door open it didn't even have a standing wave problem.  Had a pair of large ML's in another bedroom and I was shocked at how good it sounded.  It just proved that you can get great sound with varying size speakers in most listening rooms if you set them up properly.  He did it to prove a point.  

Agree with the "pick speakers first" advice. So much more variability with speakers and resulting in so much greater sound presentation differences with speakers versus anything else.

It takes a long time to do it right because you need to listen to a lot of different speakers, narrow it down to a couple, and then ideally listen to those couple on different styles of amplifier (tubes, solid state, hybrid, separates vs integrated) - not necessarily specific brands of amplification at this point (unless you have tons of time), styles is good enough to pick the speakers.

Once you pick the speakers, then dive into the amplification revisiting types and specific brands. By then hopefully you’ve got the speakers in-house, and easier to bring home a couple of amps to demo than transporting speakers (which I guess was already mentioned just agreeing).

All that said, often plays out differently in real life, especially if you don’t have unlimited resources to make all purchases at once. In my case, I got an unexpected fantastic deal on an integrated amp that was so much better than I could have expected for price range I knew I’d be in that I acquired integrated amp first. Although I did get to extensively hear a 1.5 hr demo of the amp with the eventual speakers that I’d end up getting before purchasing the amp, and even then I knew those speakers would probably be the ones (had probably heard 10 speakers by that point), though still ended up doing months of demo’ing of at least a dozen further speakers above and below in cost to cement the speaker choice.

David here is the rationale.

Loudspeaker choice is determined by a few factors:

1: Room size the larger the physical amount of air to be moved the larger the loudspeakers need to be, ie small room, small speaker, medium room medium sized loudspeaker, big room big speaker and gigantic room really big speakers. For the medium to large room a set of subwoofers may augment the mains in place of larger displacement woofers, subs pro and con are another discussion.

2: Physical look: for many people especially with a signfiigent other, the look color, size, shape, wood or painted finish may be part of that factor

3: SPL requirements: There are gigantic loudspeakers that don't play that loud for their size and smaller speakers that will play very loud, so it all matters to the design, efficiency and power handling/heat dissipation of the drive units.

4: Bass output, midrange flavoring, or treble clarity, ie loudspeaker voicing is strongly dependent of the overall design

5: Imaging abilities: some loudspeakers image better than others.

Therefore the loudspeaker has way more variables in terms of finding the right loudspeaker than the electronics do.

We will say that finding the right matching electronics to a particular set of loudspeakers will require auditioning a number of amplifiers, then cabling and source interactions until the system comes alive but again, it is much easier to schlep in an amplifier or dac then to physically move large speakers in and out of your home.

Therefore for all of these reasons we recommend that when someone is starting this jorney the loudeakers come first as the initial decision.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

@audiotroy   

We start with the speaker selection first as the speakers are based on room size, output spl required, finish, physical size, asthestic design, of course sound quality.

All of the above remain the same whether starting out amplifier first, or not. 

It doesn't answer the question of why speakers first (over amplification).

Do others have perspective on incontrovertible reasons / rationale on why speakers first (over amplification)?

The problem with the typical B&M is price. I'm not going to spsnd hours of their time learning whats what only to buy everything used on AG. but if I buy new i'll have to settle. 3f instead of the 7. f228be instead of the salon2. Yes a dealer can make the more affordable system ferform at its best but it disregards the val,ue of AG and buying used.

David Ten, the only way you start with the amplifier first is if you are in love with an amplifier that you allready own and have to then go the backwards route of finding a set of speakers that will work optimally in the room with that amp.

We start with the speaker selection first as the speakers are based on room size, output spl required, finish, physical size, asthestic design, of course sound quality.

So we start our clients with the speaker selection first then move to the electronics, then digtial.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

you start with the speakers always with the speakers first

...The reason we start with the speaker is because it will determine the electronics,

Amplifier choice forces speaker choice. Speaker choice forces amplifier choice.  Either way is instructive yet limiting. What's the difference? 

(This is generally directed, not at you specifically audiotroy) 

Steve, this is one reason why we should rely on brick and mortar guys.  Even guys who sell out of their homes, like AT does.  It's important that we know what goes good together.  Most folks listen blindly to what folks tell them and chase their tails.  They aren't confident in their own ears or they aren't out listening to a lot of other gear.  When I go to audition for real, I use a paper and pen either during or afterwards.  I make copious notes as I can't remember if I don't.  use the same recordings that you personally bring in.  That way you can make notes about the same portions and then you will at least be closer than if you go by memory.

The best dealers I know as well as the top audio companies who I know well say the same things about system building.

Both ends are equally important.  The end product will only play what it's fed and how it's fed.  As good a source as you can buy is best.  Then the second for me is the preamp.  It's not a control unit.  It's the heart of the sound.  Most speakers will scale pretty high, so you can go a line lower if needed in order to get the best pre you can afford...Then it's the speaker and last the amp.  Teh cables etc... aren't for fine tuning IMHO.  They are the last part of the process (and important), but you can have a great system with mid level cables and cords if you have to.  

If you need to 'fine tune' with cables, then you've done something wrong in putting the system together.  

Again, it's my opinion.  If you are close to AT, then go to the other stores in NJ as well as some in NYC. You will figure out who you like best as well as what you like best.  If there is a speaker that you fall in love with, don't think it will sound just as good if you use the lesser pre or amp or source.  It won't adn you may not be happy adn will chase the tail.  

All just my opinion of course.

My experience trying to put together a greater sounding stereo has pretty much mirrored what audiotroy talks about. I don’t dispute their reality I just don’t like it because I cannot afford to play there. I had hoped that using audiogon and patience I would be able to assemble a class a system for a fraction of the cost. Unfortunately AT is spot on when they say you can’t buy a bunch of components that get great reviews and count on great sound, for me now it’s the chicken or the egg? Do I buy an amp/ pre amp and find speakers that like them? Wtf, seriously. I’m interested in great music not fancy boxes. There’s a lot of companies offering active speakers and to audiotroys analogy when you buy a Porsche it already has a sota tranny, tires, suspension, etc they don’t bankrupt you and then say what did you expect your garage doesn’t have a lift! I know they didn’t make the model but they support it.

I love the Belles stuff.  For SS gear Belles is at a great price point and punch high.  Aesthetix gear is like that too in the Tube range (that new integrated is a game changer for tube gear in that price range).  

The new Ayre 8 Series stuff is just unbelievable for the cost.  Real meat on the bones and plenty of the Ayre micro and macro detail.  

Sorry to go on, but this is some of the new stuff I've really liked a ton.  The Ayre stuff is sick if you go afford it even withe a stretch.  

Heard the Persona 9's again at a dealer who has them set up in a great room and with top gear.  They sounded the best I've ever heard them sound.  They are still way too top heavy for my tastes, but I see why many like them.  

Just reread my post and would like to apologize for my analogy lol...had a few beers.

The Personas were toed in but even if they were not properly spaced I should not be able to detect the crossover between the midrange and tweeter. As far as cables go, they were probably just using some run of the mill Monster wires. The source was off the guy’s phone streamed to the Mcintosh integrated amp. Maybe I am not a fan of Mcintosh. You know David Belles is right down the road I should see if he would be willing to loan and integrated amp to this store. I actually have yet to hear one of his amps but they have a small following.

On a side note, Audio Doctor I checked out your website and see you cary Exposure amps. I am a huge fan of their sound signature and I was wondering if you have had any experience with the difference between the 3010s2 and 3010s2D?

I’ve visited Paradigm dealers where 75% of the salespeople will candidly admit that they prefer a competitor to the Persona line at similar cost for their home systems, and no these aren’t all people who don’t appreciate clarity or who lean towards warm sounding speakers because in some cases the preferred competitor also uses beryllium.

Horses for courses. Everybody likes what they like and it’s all subjective anyway.

I love the sound of Spendor, but no doubt there are some who would say Spendors sound terrible, and I wouldn’t tell them they’re wrong or that they must have heard Spendor in a bad setup. I’d realize that they just prefer a different sound than I do.

Now if if they say any candy bar other than Mounds is best, then we’ll have to take it outside ... : )

i heard a not cheap Klipsch setup today playing on a five figure Esoteric amp at a dealer and I swear it was one of the worst sounding speakers I’d ever heard in the cost range, but there was another customer there just eating it up and I could tell that to him it was sonic perfection.

djverne, interesesting, every speaker you mentioned as liking are Two way speakers, vs a three way loudspeaker.

Could it be that you don't like a three way loudspeaker?

Also almost every loudspeaker has a soft dome tweeter that you mentioned. 

You are also assuming that the speakers are set up correctly at this person's house?

The reality is that ANY high resolution loudspeaker will be totally dependent on the equipment your are driving it with, the quality of the playback gear, and the cabling, then factor in the room's acoustics as well as postioning and you are going to hear glorious sound or horrible sound.

Yes you might not like the speakers but your findings are hard to extrapolate as to what was the issue with the setup.

We would welcome you to hear the Pesona series setup with the right gear in the right room at our shop, they are marvelous loudspeakers when setup correctly, they are however, very picky about what you use with them, they will show you everything both good and bad with the setup. Unlike other high performance loudspeakers they have both a Beryillium tweeter and midrange and therefore are going to show you everything in that stream, if the dac was sup par you are going to instantly hear it. 

Also with a three way loudspeaker you are going to be much more aware of coherence issues with placement and sitting distances, if you are too close you might not find the drivers blending correctly, other issues can be toe in as well.

We are not saying that the Personas are for everyone, there are people that are not going to be in love with their remarkable clarity if comming from certain much warmer voiced loudspeakers if that is their predilection, but it certantly sounds that you did not hear them at anywhere near their best. 

It is like a panel guy who loves panels most direct radiating loudspeakers are going to "sound" wrong to that listener. 

Sometimes it is a case of listener bias and or preference while others are going to be down to setup.

You mention a whole host of speakers you like however, you did not compare a single one in the same enviornment to the Paradigms, so your logic and testing methodology is not exactly the same.

You may want to relisten to the speakers at a Pardigm dealer and you might think differently about them or not. 

When we judge loudspeakers, amplifiers, or dacs, we don't just use one sampling before we get a picture of the line, we often will hear said product at multiple shows before we get a real impression or better yet at our shop and testing under known circumstances.

Good luck.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers

Will post more tmrw but the following  other speakers I compare them too:
Fritz Carbon 7
Merlim TSM
Acsend NRt 
Dynaudio 110
Dynaudio 160
Modified Fritz 7 ( DIY modified speaker for nearfied— courtesy of Fritz selling me the parts)
Fritz Rev 5
Pmc TB2
 
will not post the seller cause there local and while the salesmen knew alltbabout TVs when I asked him about the Dac that the Macintosh amp used he really did t know what I was talking about. That’s ok but I really think 3 things stood out:
1. The Dac could have expanding the sound stage
2. The Macintosh integrated amp held back the top air and magnified some type of audible distortion that my ear caught right away in the crossover region (tweeter and midrange)
3. Midrange was just not that great. It sounded disjointed like old reviews of lesser popular pricey sound fabor models ( and usher).
4. Speaker was all control and low treble (berillluim tweeter)
5. Midrange just wasn’t great. Could put a system together with a full range Fostex, or Mark audio with sub and Low pow set and get same quality and 1/3 price in midrange.
6. Tweeter really was great, Beriluim..nice
7. Wide sound stage with great attack... just disjointed sound
8. Sorry to say and many other people won’t notice but after hearing a perfect transional crossover in speakers like the Merlin, Fritz (Series crossover) and the. My own full range diy (Mark audio Drivers) , the Personas crossover stood out like a Blond house wife with fake t****. Sorry no other way to sugar coat it.

Heaven forbid anyone critique the Personas, right? Give it a rest.

djverne,

Honestly don’t know what you are hearing with that setup,

a couple of questions:

1: Were the speakers toed in?

2: What kind of cabling was being used?

3: What was the source?

There are a few really weird things in your description the midrange is anything but recessed, the top end tends to be hot, with a lot of air, so you had something rolling off a lot of detail.

You said the coherency  was average compared to what which speakers are in your mind coherent.

Love to know more about the place you heard them, your findings are very different than what most people find about the speakers.

Could it be that you perhaps didn't like the Mcintosh with the Paradigms, the sound you are describing could be very attributed to the Mcintoh amplifiers which are not very transparent but tend to sound warm and rolled off due to their design. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers

I demoed a pair of Persona 5F’s with an integrated Macintosh amp today, here are my thoughts:

1. Very well controlled bass but not big.
2. Treble sounded musical with great transient response but their was no air (prob Macintosh related).
3. Could hear the crossover between midrange and tweeter.
4. Mid range was not that impressive and sounded recessed.
5. Coherency was average

Yes true...that´s no secret for me. I run my Persona 9H with a SET 845 tube amp. Simply marvelous!!

I heard the 3f with a McIntosh 252 integrated and the sound was really nice. I think tubes somewhere in the mix helps them and they don't  need a ton of power.

Please try a good push-pull valve amp...you will be delighted!!

I listened a 5F with an Audio Research VSI75, and the sound was magic!

This combo is magic with the Persona 3F. I heard the latest v2 iteration.

https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/552-nad-masters-series-m22-stereo-amplifier-and-m12-preamplifier-dac


My 2 choices: 

1) Spend $35K fo the Luxman m900u + Mola Mola Makua 
2) Spend $7K for the relatively close to Luxman sounding NAD combo. Easy choice for me.

Finally heard the Persona 3F today (had heard the 5F before) and I really liked what I heard. I was debating whether to get the TAD ME1 monitor speaker or the Persona 3F for my small room. That decision is now made, Persona 3F. 

This demo today should have been awful because I did not sleep last night due to work.  However, listening to the 3F with the NAD M12/M22 stack was like listening to the TAD ME1 with uber Luxman gear. It was smooth and pleasant, not all all irritating. I did not like the 3F so much with the Mark Levinson 585. I had some irritation with that but the NAD was music to my ears. 

I think the Luxman m900u amp I heard with the TAD ME1 would be killer with the 3F. I am not sure if it is a good match with the M12 streamer that sounded so good today. 

Just need to find the right electronics with the Persona. I am sure I could do even better than the NAD but the enjoyment factor was already very high with the relatively low cost NAD. I could listen to this combo for hours.

It needs to be stressed more. I have a couple dealers I use, (kinda like the old days,sniff) don't anyone to know how bad the addiction is. One of the dealers is very clear about component matching and has no qualms about telling me when i'm in the wrong room! meaning even tho' I might be able to afford the speakers on display i'll never be able to make them sing. I think thats why i'm going active. wyhiwyg.

Yes mofojo both are delicious.

Life is like a box of chocolates. Speakers are like cars and pies. Lol. 

Dep sorry to disagree, changing speakers is like changing an Apple for an Orange.

Changing electronics is like going to the supermarket and picking fruit that is a week old vs going to the orchard and picking it fresh.

Sure you could say that both are "apples" however the week old one has muted flavors, the texture isn’t crisp, and the colors of the apples are a bit dull.

Please compare a store bought apple pie to a fresh baked pie made with top quality ingredients and you will very quickly get my point.

Even the best chief can’t make a great pie with poor quality parts. The better the quality the ingredients the better the pie comes out, ergo, the better the electronics you use with the speakers the better sound you get out of the speakers it is really that simple. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona Dealers

Dep no they are not extremely similar across the line.

Like any manufacturer there will be a house sound, but it does change a bit as you go from model to model.

The 3F sounds similar but different to the 5F. We demoed the 3F to 5F comparison at another dealer and the 5F was a bit more mellow, had a bigger soundstage and of course had more bass.

The Persona 7 and 9 are the same speakers with the 7F not having the 9’s active bass.

The Persona 7 and 9 also use different bass drivers then the 3F and 5F.

Do they sound similar? Yes they do, but there are still audible differences between the models.

We demoed the 3F in the exact same room with the same gear, as our 9H and they sounded very different.

As per the Personas 9 needing less of an amp, because the bass is powered, again not true, as the 100 watt Manley tube amp, the Snappers are fantastic did not sound as good, as the CJ which were 275 monos, nor did the Devialet, nor did the Electrcompanient, nor did the Thrax gear the T+A gear was clearly the best sounding this was the consensus for both the Polymers MKX-S our previous reference loudspeakers and the Persona 9H.

As per your ridiculous assertion that the majority of your budget should be spent on speakers, look back at the car analogy.

If the heart of your car is the engine, the loudspeakers, and the rest of the car is your electronics and ancellory products, then this analogy should make it perfectly clear,

Take a 600 hp Ferrari engine and drop it into a Toyota Camery and lets take it for for a drive, did you just save your self $200,000.00 by creating this pairing?   Now ;ets suppose that the car’s transmission could actually handle the horse and power, do you think that the Camery has the braking power, suspension to enable this mess to actually drive?  The second you would try braking into a corner you would be dead as the suspension and brakes would be woefully inadequate for the job at hand and you would be headed to the guard rail and your untimely demise.

There is a reason why a high perfromance sports car drives like it does. A high perormance sports car is built around all the major subassemblies peforming their function optimally and in concert with each other. 

If you have a great engine, you need adaquate brakes to stop the car and high performance braking systems are expensive, so is the suspenson system which must hold everything together which also includes the entire frame and body which must also do its job. Hence a $200k sports car costs $200k because it is built with all of its parts working together and specified to provide a working envelope that the vehicle can perform optimally in. 

Substitute any cheapie parts and watch the car's ability to perform be compromised severely.

In our experience the electronics and source components, should cost 1 to 2 times the cost of the loudspeaker as a general rule. The addage garbage in garbage out is very true in audio. That is not to say that you can't buy a $5k amp and run a $10k set of speakers nicely that is also summising that you are not getting all you can get out of those $10k loudspeakers.

That is also not to say that you can't sometimes find value pairings that can sound surprisingly excellent but as a general rule the more exotic and expensive a loudspeaker is the higher the quality of what you need to drive it is going to be.

As per the other point that someone made about the Anthem electronics they are excellent for the price, but do you honestly think that the Anthem design team brought in tons of different competiting brands and tested and evaluated how they could build a better product, or did they forumulate some ideas, design a circuit based on some of their previous work and then build said product.

We have done these kinds of tests and the Anthem STR amp and preamp are great, but not in the same degree of great as the T+A gear or the Krell Illusion preamp and 300XD are.

So the moral of this story is if you are looking at this kind of product you must be prepared to use the right gear.

As per your doubling the electronics comment, we demoed the 3F at a client using a very good older Classe Intergrated amplifier a $5k amp along with a T+A dac so this would be a $10k package and the 3F didn’t sound a lot better than his older Dali Helicons.

Switched in a Naim Nac 272 preamp/dac and a Naim 250Dr and boom the 3F sprang to life, and sounded fantastic.

So again your experiences don’t mirror ours at all. The right set of electronics, cabling, and source components can make or break a set of speakers.

As per a dealer blowing out any product, so have we, certain products didn’’t work in our store or were not to our preference that doesn’t invalidate that product it just means it wasn’t working for us and our clientele, the same can be said of other dealers.

All I can tell you is when our Persona 9h are running with the T+A gear and a good source, the sound is among the most three dimensional and life like sounding systems we have ever heard and that includes some crazy expensive systems that are $200-400k.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers

@audiotroy,

The persona series uses the same midrange and tweeter throughout if I am not mistaken. I've heard the line up several times.  Sonically, they are extremely similar from the 3's to the 9's.  I don't like them, but I understand that some out there who love every last detail, don't listen loud, and love analyzing every last detail... would be interested.  The first 15 minutes that I heard the 7's I thought they were clinical, but it was cool for a few minutes to hear everything in the recording.  Then I turned them up... and that was it for me.  So, let's just get that out of the way.  I listened to the 7's in a decent room, with a nice tube pre-amp at a good dealer.

As far as "amp matching" and system matching goes.. Most would agree that it's more critical in the midrange and tweeter to get the right amp.  Heck, with the 9's they have an internal amp and ARC (which I do think does a nice job eq'ing bass)... so you could argue that the amp is LESS critical with the 9's than the rest of the line-up that has to also drive the bass.  So, if it takes stellar electronics to "Bring out the best" of the 9's, than what does that say for the rest of the line-up that uses the same midrange and tweeter, but actually needs the amp to drive and control the woofers?

The whole "82 octane gas" doesn't really hold weight... I'm also going to go ahead and "guess" that when Paradigm voiced them, they did so with Anthem electronics... so for one to get what the MFG really intended the speaker to sound like, it should not take more than anthem electronics (and frankly it probably wasn't the new STR stuff when the Persona's were developed).  

Suppose I would be interested to know if paradigm used uber-expensive speaker stands or whatever flavor of iso-acoustic stand you push when they voiced them - if so, why not include them on the flagship model?  What's an extra 500 bucks at that point?

This isn't to say that amps/pre's/sources don't sound different, but the law of diminishing returns is steep in audio.  If someone wants to buy audio jewelry, cool, if someone wants cables that looks like a firehose, all good by me.  If you can sell it, good for you.

But to endlessly shill these products, and try to rationalize a speakers faults (and heck they really aren't faults, they are just how Paradigm voiced them) and say that you can mix and match with some high-brow knowledge of audio alchemy is just wrong and a big pile of crap.

But if someone doesn't like say the 3f... doubling the cost of the amp isn't going to do the trick.  That same amp is also going to sound relatively similar on the 5, 7, etc... it's the same midrange and driver.

I could care less what someone buys, in fact if anyone is looking for an absolute steal on a Persona center channel I know of a dealer blowing their stuff out and they have the center and stand left and are asking 3500 bucks for a demo unit.  

But bottom line, most of ones budget should be spent on speakers in almost every case.

I also agree... any 33k system better sound pretty damn good assuming a good part of the budget was spent on speakers.

OK just heard the Persona 3f at Axpona and nice midrange and top end BUT bass was muddy and not much definition this even with room correction. Yes it was in  hotel room but didn't do anything for me.

@audiotroy Getting back to some audio questions since I seem to agree with a lot of your tastes in sound. I would like to ask your opinion. I heard the TAD ME1 recently and you were correct, it is an great monitor speaker. It is unfortunate that they raised the price again to $15k.

If you had to choose between the TAD and the Persons 3F for a small acoustically treated room which would you take? I think the 3F would be clearer and maybe preferred by me but the TAD ME1 seems like a perfect physical fit over the 3F. I sit a bit off-axis so the TAD maybe better. It is tough for me to decide without having both in my room, which is not possible. Cannot go wrong with either but I would be interested in your more informed opinion.

You don’t have any idea what she’s using and have no idea what you’re talking about.

D2girls you may be getting great sound however you may be missing the true potential of what your speakers are capable of with what you are currently using.

As per using Anthem Electronics the Str amp and preamp at $10k sounds very good with the Personas however even better gear brings out better performance.

As per taking years to get a system right how many people buy everything at once?

First you select speakers, then electronics, then digital etc please tell me if you are searching for the best in each class you  can evaluate many of the products so quickly.

A well set up pair of 9H challenges many $60-70k speakers.

So you can put together one terrific system for the price of some of the other leading contenders

Dave and Troy,
Audio Doctor NJ

That should be the standard!

I think most rational folks are with Trudat on this one.  If a speaker is so temperamental that they only sound good on a handful of products and you have to spend that much more on cable, cords and isolation devices, then something is not a great buy in audio IMHO.  Too many other great choices that will give awesome sound for much less and is easier to set up (cheaper).

audiotroy's approach to audio is flawed. price has nothing to do with anything. im driving my jbl 4367 with electronics worth less than 1/20 of the cost and this is the best sound i'veever had.

AT I was mimicking the point you made. That it can take years to get the best out of a pair of speakers. I was making my own point that I find it unacceptable that a high end pair of speakers is a black hole that needs years of tweaking to get the best out of! If a pair of speakers cost as much as the family car it should work out of the box. Anthem and Paradigm are the same company and if their 2 statement products don't whip the competition when paired I say they failed.

No trudat it doesnt work that way.

Buy a Porsche put 82 octane gas into and put some cheppie tires on it does it drive like it was designed to drive?

The higher the quality the speaker the more resolving it is therefore you will hear more of what the amp is doing.

Why do you think people buy $20k-40k amps if they didnt sound better?

The combination of gear must combine to produce the sound you are looking for.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers