I was in a showroom about a week ago and listened to the small persona B with a McIntosh amp streaming tidal through a node2 and to be honest I was surprised how good it sounded not bright at all and the bass from that little speaker was amazing for it's size.
Paradigm Persona series
I'm beginning to poke around and gather opinions and information about a "super speaker" to replace my aging Thiel 2.4s. I like the idea of bass dsp room correction and I am a bit of a point source type imaging nut (thus the Thiels). So among other choices I've been looking at the Paradigm Persona series specifically the powered 9H with room correction for the bass. However I'm skeptical of the "lenses" i.e. pierced metal covers on the midrange and tweeter specifically because of Paradigm's claim that such screens "screen out" "out of phase" musical information. The technology in the design seems superlative but I just can't get past the claim re out of phase information and the midrange and tweeter covers. What could possibly be the science behind this claim? It just seems like its putting a halloween moustache on the mona lisa given the fact that the company is generally a technology driven company.
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As you guys know we are big Persona dealers. Djones comments are mirrored by our findings. We set up last night Persona 3f first on a Naim Uniti Nova sounded very good, but not amazing then switched to the higher end Naim Nac 272 250Dr combo a $13k set and boy did the speakers come alive. The setup sounded like a much more expensive rig. The Naim has a tight punchy bass, a warm midrange. If you want to be amazed listen to this combo. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
@brrgrr I have owned the Luxman L-590AX Class A integrated (not MK II). It is a wonderful, full featured integrated. I went on a huge trek to see what I could find to better that integrated. I tried Esoteric F05, Accuphase E-470, Accuphase E-600, Ayre AX-5 Twenty, Gryphon Diablo 300 and came back to Luxman-509X. If you can arrange for an in-home demo, I am sure you will be amazed! |
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oddiofyl"You must be the other half of audio doctor..." I am not involved, affiliated, or associated with Audio Doctor in any way at all in fact I do not even live in New Jersey or the US although I have travelled to your country on business on multiple occassions. Alleged abuses of Audiogon policy should be brought to the attention of the group's moderators who in their sole, solitary, and final judgement shall assess, decide, and determine whether such allegations have truth, merit, or validity and will then establish the appropriate official response based upon they're investigation, review, and inquiry and it is improper, inappropriate, and unwarranted for individual users, posters, or members of the group to call for action outside of a formal inquiry and in this instance the accusation, charge, and complaint against Audio Doctor is in my opinion unwarranted, without basis and unjust. |
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mr_m"Sounds like judge, jury, and executioner..." This is a very well considered, reasoned, and articulated observation as to the content, objective, and nature of some posts here and that is why alleged abuses of Audiogon policy should be brought to the attention of the group's moderators who in their sole, solitary, and final judgement shall assess, decide, and determine whether such allegations have truth, merit, or validity and will then establish the appropriate official response based upon they're investigation, review, and inquiry. |
greginnh303 posts12-31-2018 5:02am@brrgrr I have owned the Luxman L-590AX Class A integrated (not MK II). It is a wonderful, full featured integrated. I went on a huge trek to see what I could find to better that integrated. I tried Esoteric F05, Accuphase E-470, Accuphase E-600, Ayre AX-5 Twenty, Gryphon Diablo 300 and came back to Luxman-509X. I take it you liked the new 509X more than the 590 MkII, Greg? I don’t see myself ever spending the money, but I’d very much like to hear the Persona 3F’s driven by my L-590AX. Happy New Year, |
https://i.imgur.com/slYBQbo.jpg Here is the ANSI/CEA 2034 measurements of the Paradigm Persona 3F, measured in an anechoic chamber. As you can see, this is a very deliberately tailored sound signature that resembles a typical British speaker like B&W than the traditional Paradigm sound signature. It seems to me a deliberate tonality change this generation from the Signature line, perhaps for economic reasons. Below are the Magico A3 and Revel F228BE which have a more traditional NRC-based approach sound-signature wise: https://i.imgur.com/hiGeBXK.jpg https://i.imgur.com/R3prT8T.jpg |
Yeah, it seems like at times, companies just charge what they’d like to get for products with no relation to their cost. I think it’s a mistake all brands seem to make. Pricing things based on a nonsensical assumption that people will buy either way is a bad move. Consumers are smarter than that now, and it’s not hard to realize how much a product would realistically cost to make. There is no doubt that they are making a killing off the grills, but it’s still not nearly as bad as what people charge for cables — and that’s a highly praised purchase on here. |
Lets look at the issue which you guys aren't factoring in which is dealer cost. The Grills cost $200 or so to make which means they cost Paradigm approx $100 each grill times 2 for a pair = a cost of $200 they are now going to mark them up to make a profit and then the dealer is going to mark them up to make a profit and boom you have expensive grills. The Paradigm Grills for the Personas are really well made. Builder you should leave on your electronics 24/7 one they will sound better and two they will last longer. The inrush of current to an electronics device is what causes failure, there are radio stations using gear built 25 years ago that are still working due to this fact. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
What do you think it costs them to make a set of well made grills, you have to make the frame, stretch fabric and cure the glues, then you have to package the grills, Do you honestly think that a large company you are not paying for overhead and labor costs. Please see if you can make a set of grills including fabric, glues, frame materials, packaging materials and your time for less then $200 unless you are not paying yourself anything try to make two perfect grills yourself especially ones that are as nicely finished as the Personas grills. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
The Persona was also my least favorite speaker out of the handful I demoed at a local dealer a few weeks ago: Spendor D7, KEF R11, Klipsch Forte III, KEF LS50, and my favorite by a mile the Aerial Acoustics 6T. Paradigm were detailed, but so uninvolving and bright that I just wanted to keep turning the volume down. Maybe one could live with them if all they listen to is audiophile garbage music that is recorded well. |
riovendale, what was the dealers using for the setup? If you use them with the wrong electronics they are going to sound like what you describe the Persona's are a much more detailed type of sound then all the other loudspeakers you mentioned we sell the Kef LS 50 and the Kef R11 which definately are a much more laid back sounding product. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Kef and Persona dealers |
Chain was Luxman DA-250 DAC into my Schiit Audio Ragnarok integrated amp. Ragnarok is neutral and resolving, so what you’re saying makes sense. What I thought was strange is that I hated the Persona sound, yet use Focal Utopia headphones on the same amp (also a very resolving beryllium design) without the same issues. |
The Persona speakers seem to be a very polarizing design, with some loving them and others finding them to be too forward and objectionably bright. I've seen both user comments and reviews reflecting this dichotomy with extremely strong voices on both sides. There's no substitute for an in home audition when it comes to selecting speakers, and I think one would be particularly well advised to arrange one before purchasing the Persona speakers. |
I agree with the audition advice. But these speakers measure with a large peak at 10 kHz and another one even higher. See: https://www.stereophile.com/images/918ParaP5Ffig4.jpg. Buyer beware. :) |
Rivionale what's your agenda? You pick on the Persona yes which in the Stereophile measurements has a few peaks and valleys just checked review measurements on $130k Sonus Faber Aidahttps://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-aida-loudspeaker-measurements notice is it also not flat and has peaks and valleys accross its frequncey range A $70k pair of Vandersteen 7 MK II have dips in most of their high frequency range and a trough in some of the lower frequencies https://www.stereophile.com/content/vandersteen-model-seven-mkii-loudspeaker-m7-hpa-monoblock-power-... A pair of $58k Wilson Alexia MK 2 https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-alexia-series-2-loudspeaker-measurement... I see depressions in the top end and a hump in the lower bass frequencies. I guess all of these speakers must sound bad based on their measurements what is clear is that none of these speakers measure flat all are higly respected loudpseakes what is clear is that loudspeakers either have rising top ends or top ends with depressions, gee guess what a speaker with a duller top end will sound warmer and one with a high frequency peak will sound brighter. Please Rivonale show me one highly lauded speaker system measured by Stereophile which actually measures flat? The art of a good setup is the ability to mix room acoustics, components and source gear into a well balanced sounding system. Taking one part of the equation out of the entirity of a setup demonstrates nothing but ignorance. If you have a brighter speaker add more absorptave material which could be acoustic panels or pillows. If your speakers sound too dull add brighter cabling or sources take out overally absorptave materials and add eq if possible. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
First off some speakers are designed to be used with grills. Secondly, I agree that flat response can be boring in a real life room. My favorite speakers are all voiced in real rooms and not in chambers. This is why I'm not a fan of so many of the Canadian brands (totally personal choice). Any component needs to be part of a system. I don't like some components and never will regardless of what they are paired with. If you have to 'tune' with cables, then there is a problem with the system IMHO. Give me neutral cables and get a system that sounds great to your ears. |
I don’t think half of the dealers Persona’s are broke in. Paradigm will tell you 300 hours. All I can say that with proper cabling and with tubes somewhere in the chain the Persona’s ( I have the 5f’s) are a great speaker. Absolutely kill my previous Magico S3. Without a doubt out of the box with my previous cabling ( Audience AU 24 SX ) they sounded just as a lot of people describe, bright and uninvolving. With a more meaty cable loom of Cerious Technolgies graphene Matrix and a couple of months of break in this is a fantastic speaker. My friends have Martin Logan’s CLX, Wilson’s, Merlin’s, Revel Salons and the all love the Personas. Just have to have the right synergy. Probably some of the finest midrange you will hear in any speaker in its price range. I added Harmonix RF 909 spike bases and took them to another level. This really is a great speaker. Just needs a little time and effort to get there |
Ditto Benzman, we just demoed a pair of the Persona 3F at a clients house, and the results were very interesting. We came to his house and he had a Classe Cap 2100 a very good and respected 2010? integrated amp with a Bluesound Node2 Monster Cables and a set of Dali Helicon 1. Decent sound but no real image width or depth and the sound was very cloudy. We then added a great dac T+A Dac 8 DSD and a set of real cables to the mix, bigger soundstage, greater detail. Then we added in power conditoner and power cables and the sound of the Dali's was very good finally got a good image floating in space Now we chaged to the Persona 3F clarity better soundstage beter but the bass on the Dali was better. Swapped out the crappy $300 Monster Cable with a set of Wireworld Silver Eclipse and boom sounded like a totally different system, huge soundstage, good image float, everything was improved. Then we swapped in the Personas and the transparency was breathtaking but we all missed some of the Dali richness. Took our a $13k Naim stack of amp/preamp and boom Personas now had deeper bass and everything was radically improved things floated in space and the midrange was richer and now they sounded like a $20k speaker not ones that sell for $10k. Go hear the Personas with Naim it is a fantastic combo. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona and Naim dealers |
@audiotroy If you’re going to keep addressing me and implying I have some hidden agenda, the least you could do is spell my username correctly. I don’t have an agenda. I simply shared my experiences with the Persona 3F speakers as compared to a number of others I listened to, in the same room, in the same location on the floor, on the same day, on my amp, with the same music, with no other variables. You stated above: "[A] speaker with . . . a high frequency peak will sound brighter." Correct. That’s exactly what I said. This speaker has a peak at 10 kHz, and a depression in the mids, which makes it sound brighter. People should know that going in. It doesn’t mean that some won’t like that response, but I and many others in this thread certainly did not. I did not say anything about flat responses generally, nor do I believe that measurements are the only thing to consider. But measurements do tell an important part of the story. What is YOUR agenda? According to your last post, the Persona 3F are amazing speakers, but only after one has spent $4,000 on a new T+A DAC, thousands of dollars on a new power conditioner and power cables, and thousands of dollars on new Wireworld Silver Eclipse speaker cables and interconnects. Oh, and let’s not forget $13,000 on new Naim electronics to drive them. What I find interesting in your post about the customer’s in-home setup is the complete lack of discussion about speaker and listening positioning, the room itself, and acoustic treatments / furniture therein, all of which affect perceived sound quality much more than ~$25,000 worth of electronics and cables. One must only look in your signature line to see your agenda: "Audio Doctor NJ Persona [did you mean Paradigm?] and Naim dealers." Nice sales pitch. I (and I assume many others) will continue to treat your posts with the huge grain of salt they deserve. All the best. |
What I find interesting in your post about the customer's in-home setup is the complete lack of discussion about speaker and listening positioning, the room itself, and acoustic treatments / furniture therein, all of which affect perceived sound quality much more than ~$25,000 worth of electronics and cables. +1 The high end audio salesmen seem to rarely mention the most obvious, critical factors in a set up, especially if someone has a sonic issue. Rather conveniently, instead they are happy to sell you a new cable, DAC, amp etc to "fix" the problem. "Sound too bright? We have an expensive cable for that!" |
Prof setup is key and that obviously includes the room. Again in the example sited above, the same room and listening postion, different equipment and cabling and the Persona speakers sounded exceptional or just okay dependong on the gear setup the room and listening position didn't change only the gear, and that was the critical take away, the room does make a difference the equipment is as important if not more so. We are not saying that the room doens’t make a difference it does, but without the right gear the speakers will not sound good no matter what.. System one: Classe Cap 2100 Blue Sound Node crappy Monster cables original Dali Helicons sounded great, Personas better in some way not better in others. 1: Add Dac and real cabling big improvment in clarity, soundstaging. 2: Replaced crappy speaker cables with better cabling and again huge improvement. 3: Still similar outcomes the Personas didn’t sound way better than just different. 4: Switched out electronics and boom magic on the Personas. Yes fortunately or unfortunately expensive cabling, dacs, electronics make a huge difference and can make or break a particular set of loudspeakers, and in this demo the room was the same in ordinary Living Room, no treatments etc, Rivondale, just switching out one variable can mean that your amplifier might not sound good with a particular set of loudspeakers. We had a client come into the shop with a Belles Aria which makes a great match with Vandy’s plays the same amp on the Kef’s and the Unision Research Primo blew it away in most areas. It is all about synergy, when demoing just one product you must be aware that sometimes if you like certain aspects of a systems sound you may need to change your electronics, cabling, or source components until you create the right balance. Prof1 high end audio is more like high end cooking it is finding ingredients which work to balance out each other. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
