Everyone's "do this" list is different and "right"
This should an interesting read.
This should an interesting read.
Next step in Turntable
The thoughts of others are only pointers, Experiencing the Options that are available will be the best way to find your preferences. If you have a selection of go to Vinyl Tracks that you are quite familiar with. Take these along to auditions/demonstrations, it wont be long before your preferred choices start to surface. COVID prevented interactions with other like minded enthusiasts, not any more though, there are welcoming receptions and gratitiude a plenty for making the time to interact. |
Your biggest decision will be to stick with all in one packages, like VPI where your table and arm come together, or to step up to viewing the table and the arm as separate components. This second way involves a fair bit more work, but it really pays off. The other way is easier but you learn a lot less, and believe it or not spend more money to get not as good sound. The reason for this is most people can afford only so much at a time. Say you can budget $5k for a component. If you upgrade the whole thing you will indeed get a big improvement. But if you put that $5k into just an arm, wow will you ever get a great arm! Last you a long, long time! Maybe forever. (Mine is 16 years.) Or if you put that into a turntable, same thing. Also the people who make separate turntables and arms, they know these are being compared directly and so put a lot more into them. The people making packages, virtually no one ever removes the arm to see how they sound all by themselves. They know as long as the package is better than the one down their line they are good. Still, it is a learning curve. That is why I say this is your biggest decision. |
Jeff, if you want a definitive improvement it is a big jump. For a final purchase turntable and tonearm with a decent cartridge thrown in you are talking $10K. Until you are ready to spend that kind of money, spend it once and spend it right I think you should build your record collection as naimfan mentioned. In the mean while you can also listen, learn and window shop. |
A SOTA with Origin Live Conqueror (or thereabouts) https://www.originlive.com/hi-fi/tonearm/#premiumrange will certainly deliver otherworldly level performance. Then later on when you are ready for a new cart, Soundsmith SG1 and you are set. |
Chakster; It was a joke, because you asked Mijostyn about turntable, for him it’s SOTA and almost any audiogonner aware of it :)) Actually you could try if they are near. I prefer direct drive turntables, the ultimate today is SP-10R drive from Technics, Japan. Tonearm and custom plinth of your choice. Probably it’s over your budget. |
"$10k seems very reasonable" If that's the case, then you're also dropping minimum $3-5K on a phono stage at some point to make that 10$K investment sound the way it's intended. Existing phono stage needs to step up with the new table. Big picture is you're dropping 15 large when all said and done. Just another perspective here. $10K can also buy a better phonostage $3-5K and a Rega P10 -arguably enough audiophool performance to satisfy plenty of owners who have 'been there, done that" with nice setups. You may even be able to find a deal with the Apheta cartridge. P10 or a Technics can be a significant upgrade for the dough. A used VPI might be realistic also, but you need to know exactly what you're getting for the money. All those tables suggested can be end game but, you still have your existing phonostage. |
I went to the Herron VTPH-2A from that same phono preamp you currently have. The Herron is $2500 and it’s worth far more given its performance. You DO NO need to spend $5k on a phone stage. Go hunt down a Herron and be set for life. We’re in the same boat regarding turntable. I need to upgrade mine too. |
Read about Herron here. This phono stage is dicontinued! No more phono stages from Herron. Probably you are not set for life @paulgardner |
From a Pro-Ject Classic a reasonable "next step" could be a Thorens TD1600/01. The 1600 is 3X the price of a Classic, adds effective sub-chassis isolation, can use your Hana SL nicely. OR you could look into a Well Tempered Amadeus 254 for well under $10K. Do you have the battery charger power supply for the Phonomena? |
I was in the same predicament. I have a Rega P3 and wanted to step up so I went and asked Bob what to do. Bob at Bob’s Devices is a really great guy and many people think his SUTs are the best way to deal with an MC cartridge. He talked me out of expensive turntables, which he sells, and into one of his SUTs the SKY 20, for medium out put MCs and then said the biggest problem, is that most phono sections are crap. He told which phono amps he likes, there are only two. And as the one guy did not respond I bought this: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/elekit/345254-eq1616d-phono-amp.html Now i can build stuff like this, so I just got the kit from Victor as waiting for Sunvalley to build one might take a while. I’m pretty sure this the right direction to go. Bob says after I get this working well, the SKY 20 to SV-EQ1616D to my preamp, a better cartridge should be next, then after this is all sorted, he will happily sell me a VPI Prime Scout. ;) |
The inquiry has gone from revealing the Devices in use and these equate to a calculation that there is probably a $1200 - $1500 TT Set Up in use in a system. There is also a interest expressed in learning of a Budget that might need to be allocated to produce a New TT Set Up that will potentially outperform the one in use. Within one day of replies the Budget seems to have hit 10K as a suggestion, and as a acceptable outlay. I hope that this is not so, I hope the experiences of other Vinyl Sources are pursued prior to even condidering a Budget. A itch is a itch, and will usually require a scratch at some point. If this is the Case I would do as suggested, build up on a Collection of Albums, and select a choice Batch of Albums to be used at the TT demonstrations that are 'Hopefully' going to Organised. Setting up Auditions of a 10k System from a few different Vendors will be interesting. Different Drives of Drive Designs, Different Tonearms, Cartridges and Phonostages, will be quite revelatory. With these Auditions imprinted in ones mind,especially how the Albums being palyed are remembered, will serve as a good foundation for other arranged visits. Additionally arrange to visit a few other different Vendors and Audition the same as above at a Budget between 4K-6K. If all the Auditions can be arranged across a short period of time, the impressions made will be very recollectable, and the shortcomings of a presentation, that leans away from your preferences and attractors can be cherry picked out with considerable ease. In preparation for this experience, if this type of build up to a Purchase is chosen. The Home System can be better prepared for the New TT's arrival, using the already owned TT to assess any benefits to be had from the Preparations. A Wall Mounted Dedicated TT Mounting Shelf could be installed, if not already in use. Coming away from using the Factory Supplied Footers and using a Purpose produced Footer can produce very noticeable improvements to a TT's presentation, Bass can appear. Trialling a Few Different Platter Mat Materials can change the Presentation of a TT with a remarkable improvement, Bass can appear with a whole new presence. All the above methods are able to be transferred over, and be used on any New TT Acquisitions. If the above preparations are utilized, there are additional experiments that can be tried out on the already owned TT, and when decided, these can again be quite beneficial when used on a different TT. Revisiting a few of the different Cartridge Alignment Geometries can work to ones favor and offer a presentation that is to an individuals preferences, not all TT owners use the same Geometries. Building in confidence and taking the Time to Dial in the Cartridge to the alignments where it really 'pops' can in some cases leave the impression a New Cartridge is in use, and Bass can be discovered. There is very little to lose if the above is adopted. When coming home from an Audition and putting a used Album onto your System, the findings might just show you the 'Laws of Diminishing Returns' are very prevailant and noticeably evident in your own investigations. |
@frozentundra , I can only tell you what I would buy for that money and I will try to give you reasons why I would get a Sota Sapphire with the standard drive. If you really want to spend more on the eclipse package, it is your money but you will be hard pressed to notice a difference. Get it with Sota's refex clamp and dust cover. The Sota Sapphire is a classic turntable. It was the very first suspended turntable to "hang" from it's suspension rather than sit on it like the Thorens and Linn turntables, a much more stable design. It was the first turntable that was totally immune to foot fall and just about everything else. It's dust cover is isolated from the sub chassis to which are mounted the platter and tonearm. You can and should use it during play. It further isolates playback from the environment. The Sota's suspension system was so good it was copied by both Basis and SME. It is much less sensitive to whatever you place it on. You can strike it vertically with a hammer with the volume all the way up and you will not hear a thing. There is no alternative in this price range. The next step up would be the Sota Cosmos Vacuum followed by the Dohmann Helix. I would put a Schroder CB tonearm on it. The Schroder is a brilliant design. It has great bearings in the right locations limiting warp wow, magnetic antiskating (no friction) and no unnecessary contacts between the cartridge and phono stage. It is a neutral balance arm, VTF does not change with elevation. It is, in spite of it's sophistication very simple looking. I love that. Alternatives would be the Reed 2G and the Kuzma 4 Point 9 Next would be the cartridge. I would get a Soundsmith "The Voice" It is a moderate output moving iron design with a top notch fine line stylus and ruby cantilever. It is a far better value than any moving coil cartridge in some ways there is no moving coil cartridge that can outperform it. It will be more dynamic and have a much better signal to noise ratio. I doubt there is a moving coil cartridge that can out track it. The Soundsmith is made in the States and service is reported to be excellent. Re tipping is relatively inexpensive. Alternatives would be the Clearaudio Charisma, a great rock and roll cartridge for sure and a grand less expensive than the Soundsmith. The least expensive moving coil cartridge I really like is the Ortofon Windfeld Ti. It is 1 grand more expensive than the Soundsmith and to get the best out of it one should have a current mode phono stage like the Channel D Lino C In disclosure I have both a Schroder CB and Soundsmith Voice sitting in boxes waiting for their turntable, a Sota Cosmos Vacuum. |
Pindac, I think you making life far more complicated than it needs to be. First of all, how a turntable sounds under optimal conditions is not the only important characteristic to pay attention to. There are other issues that are very important such as how well is the cartridge isolated from the environment and how well does the tonearm track a warped record? How nice is the turntable to use? Can you put your hand down on it to cue a record? Much of a turntable's and tonearm's performance can be determined by just looking at them with a critical eye. They are in truth very simple mechanical devices. All good turntables with the same cartridge mounted under optimal conditions are going to sound pretty much the same...except maybe to audiophiles to whom hearing is synonymous to hallucinating. |
Gents; Now, we are going in the direction I had hoped! Definitive choices , not theory and should be , or according to another ! I love the latest posts : yes, my Budget is that , $10-15k The best systems I have heard , and listened to extensively Go from $25-$45k. They have all the good stuff The big question for me is “ can you get there” for $10k……. But, My priorities are much more conservative Jeff |
There are so many ways to approach this! Have you thought of an ultrasonic record cleaner? If the budget can bear it, how about an Ultrasonic record cleaner, which could be put together relatively cost-effectively with a system from CleanerVinyl, and an upgraded turntable in the 3 to 5K range? I won't mention any example TT's here because that is sure to put some people off. Every analog head has their favorites! I'm sure you can figure that out with a few critical listening auditions under controlled conditions. |
+1 @tablejockey Assuming $10k budget, Rega P10 plus their tonearm is a great choice. A used VPI like the HW40 or Avenger or the Brinkmann Bardo would also be great options. I purchased a used VPI Avenger rim drive with 2 arms for $8.5k. Hana offers great price-performance value. But once you get to this level of turntable+tonearm performance you can hear/resolve differences between different cartridges significantly better - you may want to do a cartridge upgrade. The $2.5k PS Audio Stellar Phono Preamplifier is a newer design that garnered many positive reviews and is somewhat a bargain at it’s price point. |
I have a Bardo w the upgraded SS power supply, Triplaner arm, Lyra Delos into a Herron. Importantly TT is on a HRS base engineered for it. You can see pics of that system in my virtual systems page, Casa Pacifica. Neutral, musical, listen for hours.. as I said Brinkmann also builds a very fine tonearm… somebody above gave you excellent advice on Well Tempered Amadeus, super musical. Not sure Basis makes something in your $ range, but they are excellent. have fun |
Encouraging a Person to expand on their Experiences of Listening to various TT Set Ups, produced from a Variety of Permutations of a TT's and Ancillaries is a worthy contrubution. Encouraging the OP to consider investigating how a already owned TT can be worked with in the Home System, might add a little complexity, but it is a method carried out by most TT owners, who are seeking that little extra from their own set ups. A Cartridge Type used on a particular Set Up when well matched to the Ancillaries can in certain cases experienced, be a complete let down. I have been to arranged meetings where the theme has been to have a selection of Cartridges lined up on exchangable MS-9 Headshells. The only change in the Operational Parameters on the TT being the Cartridge. Different Phonostages and SUT's have been available to see if a improvement can be made to a interface within the system. My experience has been there are Cartridges that I don't believe underperformed in any way, their presentation has been consitent in each Audition. The lesson learned for myself, is that there are certain Cartridges when used on a TT and Tonearm of my choice do not deliver in a manner that I consider to suit my preferences. As a result of my Participation I use a Cartridge Design that was made known from my experiencing the Comparisons. To be able to make such an assessment, doeas take a little foot work. It has required making an arrangement to meet with other like minded enthusiasts, travel a little, spend time in good company and participate in a enjoyable experience of Auditions/Demonstrations. What did I do? I did not remain insular and rest on my laurels about the position I had attained. I humbled myself and drew on the experience of others, who had attained far more experience in such matters than myself. The end result of such a undertaking in terms of lessons learned about the Sound Quality of a TT Set Up, with a variety of permutations has been very insightful. What did I not do, I did not use my eyes as my guide, I left the Lure of Bling behind as a suggestion of being Quality a long time ago. This was replaced by a much more beneficial method of investigation, where my ears have been depended on. As an Audiophile, I work on the Basis that I am in pursuit of Sound, and the more endearing the Sound and Satisfying to my own unique preferences the better. To suggest to a OP with a inquiry to make the time to rely on their own ears to help them learn the Varieties of Sound that can be perceived from receiving a Audition / Demonstration of a TT Set Up. Is certainly not misguiding them. |
frozentundra, I think the Brinkmann Bardo is a beautiful design, it also is not suspended and has a huge magnet right under your cartridge, a very sensitive magnetic device. Ask Mark Dohmann why he does not use a direct drive motor on his Helix. Please watch this. It has some very basic turntable science explained beautifully. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rgK0YMsJXM |
At or below $10k I would encourage anyone to take a long look at the Sempersonus TE-2. Innovative yet simple drive system, very flexible and dead quiet. I’m using a 12” Raven arm but one could strap on an OL Conqueror or Encounter for much less and do nearly as good. Also found the Charisma Signature One which will compete with anything under $10k but retails below $4k. I replaced the stock feet with RevOpods and use an LP-1 weight. Really extraordinary setup that delivers musically. Sempersonus’ launch was hindered by COVID but as the world comes back online I anticipate great things for Paulo and company including US distribution, reviews, etc. I have no affiliation just a very happy camper! |
This is all you need and you can’t find a better drive that this, in the USA it’s about $7-9k? Regarding plinth and tonearm idea look here. They even made cast iron for SP-10R, you can just check it out. I bought a custom made teak wood plinth for my SP10 mkII and Reed3P "12 inch tonearm. |
Dodgealum, very interesting turntable, pretty design, nightmare of a drive system. Even of the drive wheel where perfectly round and the solenoid engagement system perfectly tight when new, they won't stay that way. It will suffer just like idler drives. Notice how they waltz around stating wow + flutter and rumble specs. That is a strong indicator that they are not that great to begin with. No, I have not heard one. You can't hear even 1% of the turntables out there so you have to run on an analysis of the drive and design. It is also not suspended which kills it for me. Watch the video I link to above. I have to say that at least the Technics SP 10R specs very well and is beautifully made. A new one is outside the OP's price range. The old one sounded just like what it was, a commercial radio station bullet proof direct drive turntable. Not my cup of tea. It would be a very interesting project building a suspended plinth for a new one. It is a shame this seems to be outside the capabilities of everyone making and selling plinths for it. They can't seem to get it through their heads that mass loading does not work. But it is much harder to design and build a floating plinth which I believe is the reason no one does it (that I know of, please correct me if I am wrong) If someone has an SP 10 I would love to give it a spin, pun intended. |
I have to say that at least the Technics SP 10R specs very well and is beautifully made. A new one is outside the OP’s price range. His price limit is 10k, the drive cost about $7k in Japan and about $9k in USA, the rest for any arm and custom plinth. The old one sounded just like what it was, a commercial radio station bullet proof direct drive turntable. Experts reported numerous times that refurbished SP-10 mk3 is better than new SP-10R. It would be a very interesting project building a suspended plinth for a new one. It is a shame this seems to be outside the capabilities of everyone making and selling plinths for it. They can’t seem to get it through their heads that mass loading does not work. Audio-Technica made pneumatic insulator AT616, put it under the plinth (up to 132 lbs) and you are done. |
Chackster; oooooooooo, Very pretty turntable setup It must sound very nice . Why did you pick the reed arm vs others? My one buddy has a tri-planer The gray iron base looked really cool. Older machine tools used cast iron for damping and scraped the ways I’m afraid to ask how much the cart iron base would be jeff |
Chakster, those feet are not isolation. The only thing they do is make the owner feel good. Many people gravitate toward old equipment. I have no idea why. Technology does not move backwards. I guess some people have romantic notions about the past they can not give up. I think you know how I feel about experts. Frozentundra, the Tri-planar is great tonearm, If I were to buy a Reed it would be the 2G, IMHO the best tonearm currently made is the Schroder LT. I hope to get one some day. I also have to get a turntable it will fit on like the Dohmann Helix. Check it out https://dohmannaudio.com/helix-one/ Notice what tonearms are on it. |
If you're looking for an end game TT, I have heard SME makes the best arms and now you can't get one without buying one of their tables. They're supposedly great also, but I haven't budgeted cash for one though. I think at $15K you can get a mid-upper mid one, and they are a part of a real company with materials R&D etc. |
I own a SME IV, it sits in a Box Unsued, it has been surpassed in all Perfomance Areas by a Custom Produced Tonearm I had produced for me. A SME V owner has done the same as myself and there are others moved on from other recommended Tonearms to acquire the Custom Producd Tonearm I am using. The Two above Custom Tonearms will not have cost the price of a SME IV, using ones ears is critical to make the analysis of the performance and the attractors it offers to the individual. A Short List is best developed from experiences gathered. Any well put together Marketing Strategy can sell an Item using an Attractive Glossy Paged Brochure, full of non important Blurb. I can assure you that it is easy to fall prey to. |
What’s wrong with the OP’s turntable? Pro-ject makes some nice turntables when you get over 1k....I own his turntable, the sb model with speed box. The hana is a nice cartridge and goes with that arm very well, i own the hana el. The OP should buy the metal subplatter for the classic to replace the plastic one. It adds more momentum and speed stability. Also, the TT should be placed on a thick maple board on a wall mounted shelf. The 9c carbon fiber/aluminum arm Is a very good one, it can track some very severe warps with ease. Also, he should be using a SUT for the Hana, something like the Jensen mc 2rr.....it was designed with the denon 103 in mind...the hana is almost identical to the 103 spec wise, as it calls for 400 ohm load impedance...the Jensen is set for 430 ohms. Lastly, dump the phenomena pre, go with a tubed phono stage, such as the Tavish design the classic or the vintage, or even the ear 834p!! I’d also dump the stock interconnects and go with Atlas element phono cables. Very low capacitance. I’d do all these things before dumping the TT....it has been very well reviewed by countless magazines, not one bad review. In all honesty, the OP will get something that sounds "different", not necessarily "better". |
He wants to take the next step and spend $10-15K and is asking for recommendations. If he makes good choices, it will definitely sound better. Part of the expenditure should include vibration control (if the turntable is not sufficiently self controlled like an SME) and any cables to and from the phono stage, turntable, power supply, etc. Hey @pindac, why don't you sell the SME arm? I am sure you can get a good buck for it these days. Anything can be custom produced. Aren't we supposed to be recommending commercially available off the shelf offerings (with options of course)? |
Very pretty turntable setup Reed 3p “12inch Cocobolo with cryo-treated phono cable and WBT RCA is my version. This tonearm is fully adjustable “on the fly” (even azimith on the fly). Clever design, superb quality, great sound. Buyer can choose length, cable, and armtube. I bought because of the engineering and design. My choice was Reed, not TriPlanar or Kuzma. Now it’s the only one modern tonearm in my vaults, the rest are top vintage high-end. |
Chakster, those feet are not isolation. The only thing they do is make the owner feel good. Did you read the manual for AT616? Everything explained very well with test results and measurements by Audio-Technica. Those pneumatic feet are great insulators. But your wish to completely isolate everything is a bit strange :) Life on springs in a complete isolation? This is a perfect world of modern technologies? @mijostyn Honestly, I have no idea what you guys isolate your turntable from? Is there a subway under your houses, earthquake or what? It’s a preparation for emergency to stay home with perfectly isolated Sota turntable when the earth is shaking? |
@audioguy 85 Thank You for offering the OP your experience with similar equipment. Your experinces gathered and your unyielding commitment to maintaining very similar Devices as owned by the OP is hopefully received by the OP, as reassuring, and encouraging a time out and furthering a investigation before Spending in a Substantial Manner. Your added Ancillaries to use in conjunction with the TT are of Interest, and your sure footedness about the suggestion to consider these as methods has got my attention. Your type of report is one I would use to help others make a decision about the choices they have for their own Vinyl Chain. Nearly all the usual contributors to Analogue and Vinyl replays, have not offered the support you have come through with. The OP has asked, "If I wanted to take the next step, in Analog playback , at what level and price should I be looking at". The usual contributors have overlooked the information where the OP has informed that they are informing of a re-start to Vinyl Replay, that is at present being enjoyed. The Posts speedily entered the suggestions that 10K is a required sum. Where no consideration has been shown to the OP’s experience, or how they have the TT Set Up in the Home System. Lets assume the most ludicrous, that the OP is very fit and agile, and the TT is sitting on the floor made up of very bouncy floor boards. All the encouragement so far is suggesting that the 10K TT Set Up is brought home and placed in the environment that the TT in use at present is set up in. Your Post definitely covers important points for the OP to consider. I am feeling very sure that your additional methods that incorporate the ancillaries being reffered to, will produce a change that can be referred to as the ’Next Step’. There has not been a request by the OP, to ask how to attain a level of Vinyl Performance in a System that gives the very best value for a 10K Budget. The OP has been encouraged from the earlist Posts to think in this way. My curiosity about your chosen methods can hopefully be answered, if the following could be replied to: Did you bring the TT to the Home System with these added measures waiting to be used with immediacy ? Are these thought through changes to use as New Measures, and were added incrementally to work in conjunction with the Purchased TT over time ? What is your assessment of the impact of the added Ancillaries on the Performance of the entirity of the Vinyl Chain within your system ? As a Ball Park Figure how much did these additional measures cost to put in place ? More Importantly if you were to make a change to the TT Model that is in use, from your experiences gathered, how much do you think you would need to spend on a TT that will surpass your TT Set Up in use at present ? Again if you did discover a different Model of TT that was totally to your liking, and was to bring it into the System for a Trial, how many of the added ancillaries would remain in use, being seen as Critical to producing the Best Interfaces for the Vinyl Chain in your system ? |