The HW-19 Mk.2 has a floating subchassis composed of a bottom layer of steel top with a 1/2" split-slab of acrylic (the split between the larger piece onto which the platter bearing is bolted, onto the smaller the tonearm), and a 1" Delrin platter with a thin slab of lead bonded to it’s underside and covered in cork. The Hurst motor is mounted onto the wooden base, as is the dust cover.
In the Mk.3, the subchassis’ steel bottom plate is replaced with stainless steel, the platter remaining exactly the same. Same motor mounting design.
In the MK.4, the 1" Delrin platter is replaced with a 1-1/2" lead-lined Delrin one, and with the better bearing from the TNT and Aries 1 tables. I may be mistaken, but I believe the 1-1/2" Delrin platter is also used on the original TNT table, and is definitely used on the Aries Black Knight table. I’m not certain, but I believe the base-mounted motor was still standard on the MK.4, the SAMA offered as an optional upgrade.
The 1-1/2" Delrin platter is replaced in the TNT-3 with the 1-1/4" aluminum/Delrin platter (still with a sheet of lead bonded to it’s underside and covered in cork) described in my earlier post, and retained in the TNT-4. That same platter is used on the Aries 1 table. That platter is replaced with a solid frosted acrylic platter in later Aries tables, not highly regarded amongst VPI aficionados, considered a major misstep on Harry Weisfeld’s part.
In the TNT-5, the 1-1/4" aluminum/lead-lined Delrin platter is replaced with the 1-1/2" stainless steel/Delrin platter (no lead in this one). In the TNT-6, that platter is replaced with the same solid acrylic platter as on the later Aries. Again, a mistake.
Confusing, ain’t it?! |
@bdp24 I have the SAM and … ‘a’, I presume ‘the’ … 3/4 platter. I was under the impression that those features is what converted the II into a IV. |
@unreceivedogma: Now get yourself the VPI SAMA (Stand Alone Motor), and you’ll be set! And if you can find a TNT-3/4 platter (a bottom section of 7/8" aluminum with a plate of cork-covered lead inserted into it’s bottom side, topped with a 5/8" layer of Delrin. The Aries 1 was fitted with the same platter.)---with dedicated bearing, that will give you a slight increase in sound quality over the HW-19 Mk.4 platter. Some like the TNT-5 platter (a bottom section of 5/8" stainless steel---no lead insert, topped with a 7/8" layer of Delrin) even more. |
I was going to trade in my VPI HW MK II for a VPI Classic. HW told me to save myself $4K or $5K and simply upgrade to the HW MK IV.
so I did. That was ten years ago. |
Not sure if it was mentioned before, but Townshend pods are excellent, and really easy if you get the seismic platform (which has the pods screwed in) under your turntable. Just make sure to order the correct weight limit pods since they need to compress about galf way to work optimally. Probably one of the most, if not the most expensive option, but IMHO the best. Sound improvement was fantastic. Doesn’t cure foot falls though-might actually create them at those low frequencies. |
Whilst Viewing the Isonoe Footers.
It is noticeable that the Footers share a similar Suspension Method, to the Solid Tech 'FoS'.
Looking at the Method of attachment of the O Rings it does seem possible to increase the Diameter of the O Ring to produce a improved weight carrying Footer.
What is likeable is the Easy to Remove / Threaded Attachment,
Contact Point for the Plinth or Equipment.
I was intending at some point on producing a New Contact Point for my
Solid Tech 'FoS' , that could then have a option to trial with other shapes and Materials, the Isonoe would make the Intended New Method much easier to produce a exchangeable part to experiment with.
As the Base of the Footer is not interfering with the Operation of the Footer, the available option of adding stability Base Pads/Shoes are a welcome option.
In my view if these are not too expensive they will be worth a Trial. |
Some Solid Tech feet are similar to Isonoe that I am using under my pair of Technics turntable in my second (not main) system. |
@Mijo--In my experience all drive system represent trade-offs--none are perfect but some better than others. The TE-2 approach is to extract the best of what belt, direct, and idler systems have to offer while minimizing the downsides. I think the TE-2 achieves this goal as per speed stability, accuracy and quietness of operation. The proof is in both listening and measurements. As for dodging wow and flutter if you dig a little deeper you will see that Paulo at Sempersonus has developed a very sophisticated devise called the "Shaknspin" which Michael Fremer reviewed very positively on Analogue Planet. This clearly attests to the designers commitment to strong measured performance. You can read the review here: https//www.analogplanet.com/content/shaknspin-electronically-measures-turntable-speed-plus-great-deal-more |
'Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder'
The Aesthetic of the Solid Tech is certainly not their problem.
The Aesthetic might not be to all tastes, and this totally acceptable.
If a Concern about a Solid Tech Feet of Silence is to be raised, as a user,
I will say one has to be mindful of the loading, as it can be set up to take extra weight, but the Projections that are the Cantilever Suspension Points, may become compromised where they connect to the Main Body.
I will additionally say the Foot Print would benefit from being a Little Wider, to give a reassurance that the Supported equipment is undoubtedly stable.
This is not the result of the supported device being able to be in a state of Flotation.
It is that the Diameter of the Base in relation to the Height of the Footer seems to suggest it would not survive and unwanted contact/force applied to the Device being supported.
If my Set Up was not in a Dedicated Room, where movements around the equipment are quite limited and carried out by respectful types, i.e, not the Grand Children.
I would have had an additional Footer Plate produced to give the sense of a improved Stability being available, and not compromise the Function.
As the Solid Tech does a very good Job, it would be worth the extra investment, when used in certain environments.
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The problem with @mijostyn is that he never tried the AT-616. Here is the image of my AT-616 in my system (under Tannoy). This is another set of AT under my ex SP-10mk2. 4 x AT616 designed for up to 132 lbs weight (60kg). The problem with Solid Tech is their ugly design, I would never put them under anything like vintage turntable (but it’s just my opinion). |
As said my Solid Tech Feet of Silence have superseded all other used footers.
My AT 616 are used under a Sub Plinth and are no longer used to be the Footer that is in contact with the TT's Plinth.
The Feet of Silence when used in the Construction of Materials to support the plinth has bettered them, when my ears are used to assess the effects.
I do use AT 616 under Cabinet Speakers and the effect that they have is quite satisfactory and I see no reason to change this as a method.
No fancy measurements at my end to convince me of my decisions for the use of Footers, The Method used is to Buy, Trial, Trial, Trial, in various permutations, Keep or Discard, using my ears as the Tool to make the choices.
When the Footers referred to above are under the radar, the purchase costs do creep upwards to be able to assess such devices.
As difficult to believe as it is, even for myself when first experienced,
my Home Built Aerated Suspension Sub Sub Plinth was to have an effect on the above Tiers in the Support Structure, that really allowed the TT's Presentation to be quite special, and showed the real difference between the AT 616 and Solid Tech's |
@mijostyn If it does not bounce between 1 and 3 Hz it is not isolated and the amount of noise passed on by the environment is easy to see. Hook the output of your phono stage to an oscilloscope and put your stylus down on a record with the turntable stopped. Tap on your granite rack and watch the oscilloscope jump. All that wiggling going on in the background is environmental rumble. On any good suspended turntable you will not see any of it. The tracing won’t be dead quiet as the cartridge is capable of picking up air currents in the room. I don’t care about noise I can’t hear! 1 - 3Hz ??? When I play record there is nothing under 20Hz and I don’t hammer my turntable when I listen to the music. I should concern only about frequency range comming from the speakers withing vinyl record frequency range, the speakers are near. I have absorbers and diffusers on the walls and ceiling in my listening room. Sitting in Russia and listening to my favorite vinyl I don’t care about seismic vibration from Japan, aliens rarely use their weapon in my area since the Tunguska event in 1908, we are fine. I don’t have to glue some springs to my slippers before I come to flip the record. Audio-Technica AT616 Pneumatic insurator are super effective in 50Hz - 20kHz range. Pneumatic is super effective at 200Hz. Overall they are effective at 20Hz - 50kHz and there are graphics of the measurements in the manual. They are also level adjustable and ideal for some turntable plinth! I liked them under wooden plinth of Technics SP-10mk2, Denon DP-80, Victor TT-101 (because stock feet sucks) ... I the AT/616 under my huge Tannoy “15 DMT MK2 monitors on the front side only (to change the attack angle). Regarding other turntables I want to remind you again that Luxman PD-444 is suspended on its stock level adjustable feet. I don’t use AT-616 under my Lux PD-444 turntables, because this plinth is a perfect design, But I use custom racks (they are metal filled with sand). |
I use Solid Tech Feet of Silence, they have proved to be the most effective feet in my System when combined in the assembly along with my my Differing Tiers of Construction, that are used to produce a Presentation that is very satisfying to my Personal Preferences.
These are the Footers that are in direct contact with the TT's Plinth, and also the Footers that have superseded all my Previous Methods. |
@chakster, it is very simple. If it does not bounce between 1 and 3 Hz it is not isolated and the amount of noise passed on by the environment is easy to see. Hook the output of your phono stage to an oscilloscope and put your stylus down on a record with the turntable stopped. Tap on your granite rack and watch the oscilloscope jump. All that wiggling going on in the background is environmental rumble. On any good suspended turntable you will not see any of it. The tracing won't be dead quiet as the cartridge is capable of picking up air currents in the room. You can pick up an interstate highway up to a mile away depending on surface conditions. Have the wife turn on your dryer, watch the oscilloscope jump. Same for every mechanical device in the house. These are the only feet I have seen that represent a very intelligent design concept. https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/vibration-control/products/solid-tech-feet-of-silence Assuming the spring rates can be specified for the weight of the turntable they should work fine and be very stable. Pricey but, if you have an unsuspended table you like, these would be a reasonable add on. |
Tomic601:
It appears you are good one to talk to:
you have. Brinkman Bardo
denon Dd
and SOTA
and you have ass on arms ( triplaner etc)
what is you spin in turntables ? And accessories Direct drive vs belt etc
my head is spinning …..lol
Jeff |
The first step would be a better table with a better arm that will be your starting point that will make the biggest difference.
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(1) Others have already made this point but surely it has to be Direct Drive. In the Technics lineup they have a good range. They are blindingly easy to use.
(2) In terms of phono stage, again no specific model but please look up 'LCR Network'. They tend to be expensive though. Not as important as the TT.
(3) Cartridge: I only know the Hana by reputation. I used to go to highesh end cartridges but I have changed my mind. They do not last like other components, and - I know this as well as anybody - they are easily damaged!
(4) Tonearm: avoid Origin Live. |
Try this if you considering classics (direct drive) for two tonearms. |
Tundra - any number of great TT bases out there for the non suspended tables - I use HRS created by an engineer w ears but there are others for sure.
how is your quest going ? Hopefully having fun. |
I would go with the Brinkmann Bardo. That turntable is a work of art. Have looked at and listened to Technics, not bad, but not in the same league as Bardo. |
" keep hearing of Brinkman Bardo from this string
Im going to take a look at it ? DIrect Drive?"
frozentundra-
As you can see, you're getting plenty of suggestions how to spend your money. There's even one saying he has a VERY good one, but it's STILL BOXED, because he has a "BETTER" one! The Bardo products get mentioned because they are proven performers. If I were in buying mode at that level, I'd consider DD.
I would decide first if you're going new or used. It can make a considerable difference in what your money will buy. Used can get a $20K piece negotiated to half.
An example is on usaudiomart. I can't link here for obvious reasons. But there is a killer VPI Avenger deal there for a package with a lot to offer. |
try jvc tt81 101 with ua7045
its magic with Mc. I tried with Lyra, audio technica. super crazy good with Mc
It's perform right with the very best tt. and so. easy to setup |
@audioguy 85
Thank You for offering the OP your experience with similar equipment.
Your experinces gathered and your unyielding commitment to maintaining very similar Devices as owned by the OP is hopefully received by the OP, as reassuring, and encouraging a time out and furthering a investigation before Spending in a Substantial Manner.
Your added Ancillaries to use in conjunction with the TT are of Interest, and your sure footedness about the suggestion to consider these as methods has got my attention.
Your type of report is one I would use to help others make a decision about the choices they have for their own Vinyl Chain.
Nearly all the usual contributors to Analogue and Vinyl replays, have not offered the support you have come through with.
The OP has asked,
"If I wanted to take the next step, in Analog playback , at what level and price should I be looking at".
The usual contributors have overlooked the information where the OP has informed that they are informing of a re-start to Vinyl Replay, that is at present being enjoyed.
The Posts speedily entered the suggestions that 10K is a required sum.
Where no consideration has been shown to the OP’s experience, or how they have the TT Set Up in the Home System.
Lets assume the most ludicrous, that the OP is very fit and agile, and the TT is sitting on the floor made up of very bouncy floor boards.
All the encouragement so far is suggesting that the 10K TT Set Up is brought home and placed in the environment that the TT in use at present is set up in.
Your Post definitely covers important points for the OP to consider. I am feeling very sure that your additional methods that incorporate the ancillaries being reffered to, will produce a change that can be referred to as the ’Next Step’.
There has not been a request by the OP, to ask how to attain a level of Vinyl Performance in a System that gives the very best value for a 10K Budget.
The OP has been encouraged from the earlist Posts to think in this way.
My curiosity about your chosen methods can hopefully be answered, if the following could be replied to:
Did you bring the TT to the Home System with these added measures waiting to be used with immediacy ?
Are these thought through changes to use as New Measures, and were added incrementally to work in conjunction with the Purchased TT over time ?
What is your assessment of the impact of the added Ancillaries on the Performance of the entirity of the Vinyl Chain within your system ?
As a Ball Park Figure how much did these additional measures cost to put in place ?
More Importantly if you were to make a change to the TT Model that is in use, from your experiences gathered, how much do you think you would need to spend on a TT that will surpass your TT Set Up in use at present ?
Again if you did discover a different Model of TT that was totally to your liking, and was to bring it into the System for a Trial, how many of the added ancillaries would remain in use, being seen as Critical to producing the Best Interfaces for the Vinyl Chain in your system ? |
Don't do it son! it's a road straight to HELL. If the system you got is working then don't fix what's not broken.You enjoying clicks and pops???Almost all new vinyl is crap. Why don't you just get a reel 2 reel if you want to go Analog. Way cooler than a girlie turn table.
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Chakster, those feet are not isolation. The only thing they do is make the owner feel good. Did you read the manual for AT616? Everything explained very well with test results and measurements by Audio-Technica. Those pneumatic feet are great insulators. But your wish to completely isolate everything is a bit strange :) Life on springs in a complete isolation? This is a perfect world of modern technologies? @mijostyn Honestly, I have no idea what you guys isolate your turntable from? Is there a subway under your houses, earthquake or what? It’s a preparation for emergency to stay home with perfectly isolated Sota turntable when the earth is shaking? |
Very pretty turntable setup
It must sound very nice . Why did you pick the reed arm vs others? My one buddy has a tri-planer Reed 3p “12inch Cocobolo with cryo-treated phono cable and WBT RCA is my version. This tonearm is fully adjustable “on the fly” (even azimith on the fly). Clever design, superb quality, great sound. Buyer can choose length, cable, and armtube. I bought because of the engineering and design. My choice was Reed, not TriPlanar or Kuzma. Now it’s the only one modern tonearm in my vaults, the rest are top vintage high-end. |
He wants to take the next step and spend $10-15K and is asking for recommendations. If he makes good choices, it will definitely sound better. Part of the expenditure should include vibration control (if the turntable is not sufficiently self controlled like an SME) and any cables to and from the phono stage, turntable, power supply, etc.
Hey @pindac, why don't you sell the SME arm? I am sure you can get a good buck for it these days.
Anything can be custom produced. Aren't we supposed to be recommending commercially available off the shelf offerings (with options of course)? |
What’s wrong with the OP’s turntable? Pro-ject makes some nice turntables when you get over 1k....I own his turntable, the sb model with speed box. The hana is a nice cartridge and goes with that arm very well, i own the hana el. The OP should buy the metal subplatter for the classic to replace the plastic one. It adds more momentum and speed stability. Also, the TT should be placed on a thick maple board on a wall mounted shelf. The 9c carbon fiber/aluminum arm Is a very good one, it can track some very severe warps with ease. Also, he should be using a SUT for the Hana, something like the Jensen mc 2rr.....it was designed with the denon 103 in mind...the hana is almost identical to the 103 spec wise, as it calls for 400 ohm load impedance...the Jensen is set for 430 ohms. Lastly, dump the phenomena pre, go with a tubed phono stage, such as the Tavish design the classic or the vintage, or even the ear 834p!! I’d also dump the stock interconnects and go with Atlas element phono cables. Very low capacitance. I’d do all these things before dumping the TT....it has been very well reviewed by countless magazines, not one bad review. In all honesty, the OP will get something that sounds "different", not necessarily "better". |
I own a SME IV, it sits in a Box Unsued, it has been surpassed in all Perfomance Areas by a Custom Produced Tonearm I had produced for me.
A SME V owner has done the same as myself and there are others moved on from other recommended Tonearms to acquire the Custom Producd Tonearm I am using.
The Two above Custom Tonearms will not have cost the price of a
SME IV, using ones ears is critical to make the analysis of the performance and the attractors it offers to the individual.
A Short List is best developed from experiences gathered.
Any well put together Marketing Strategy can sell an Item using an Attractive Glossy Paged Brochure, full of non important Blurb.
I can assure you that it is easy to fall prey to. |
If you're looking for an end game TT, I have heard SME makes the best arms and now you can't get one without buying one of their tables. They're supposedly great also, but I haven't budgeted cash for one though.
I think at $15K you can get a mid-upper mid one, and they are a part of a real company with materials R&D etc. |
Chakster, those feet are not isolation. The only thing they do is make the owner feel good. Many people gravitate toward old equipment. I have no idea why. Technology does not move backwards. I guess some people have romantic notions about the past they can not give up. I think you know how I feel about experts. Frozentundra, the Tri-planar is great tonearm, If I were to buy a Reed it would be the 2G, IMHO the best tonearm currently made is the Schroder LT. I hope to get one some day. I also have to get a turntable it will fit on like the Dohmann Helix. Check it out https://dohmannaudio.com/helix-one/ Notice what tonearms are on it. |
I am very happy with the VPI prime signature and soundsmith Paua cart. Within your budget and endgame in my opinion. Great match |
Chackster;
oooooooooo, Very pretty turntable setup
It must sound very nice . Why did you pick the reed arm vs others? My one buddy has a tri-planer
The gray iron base looked really cool.
Older machine tools used cast iron for damping and scraped the ways
I’m afraid to ask how much the cart iron base would be
jeff |
I have to say that at least the Technics SP 10R specs very well and is beautifully made. A new one is outside the OP’s price range. His price limit is 10k, the drive cost about $7k in Japan and about $9k in USA, the rest for any arm and custom plinth. The old one sounded just like what it was, a commercial radio station bullet proof direct drive turntable. Experts reported numerous times that refurbished SP-10 mk3 is better than new SP-10R. It would be a very interesting project building a suspended plinth for a new one. It is a shame this seems to be outside the capabilities of everyone making and selling plinths for it. They can’t seem to get it through their heads that mass loading does not work.
But it is much harder to design and build a floating plinth which I believe is the reason no one does it (that I know of, please correct me if I am wrong) Audio-Technica made pneumatic insulator AT616, put it under the plinth (up to 132 lbs) and you are done. |
Dodgealum, very interesting turntable, pretty design, nightmare of a drive system. Even of the drive wheel where perfectly round and the solenoid engagement system perfectly tight when new, they won't stay that way. It will suffer just like idler drives. Notice how they waltz around stating wow + flutter and rumble specs. That is a strong indicator that they are not that great to begin with. No, I have not heard one. You can't hear even 1% of the turntables out there so you have to run on an analysis of the drive and design. It is also not suspended which kills it for me. Watch the video I link to above.
I have to say that at least the Technics SP 10R specs very well and is beautifully made. A new one is outside the OP's price range. The old one sounded just like what it was, a commercial radio station bullet proof direct drive turntable. Not my cup of tea. It would be a very interesting project building a suspended plinth for a new one. It is a shame this seems to be outside the capabilities of everyone making and selling plinths for it. They can't seem to get it through their heads that mass loading does not work.
But it is much harder to design and build a floating plinth which I believe is the reason no one does it (that I know of, please correct me if I am wrong) If someone has an SP 10 I would love to give it a spin, pun intended. |
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At or below $10k I would encourage anyone to take a long look at the Sempersonus TE-2. Innovative yet simple drive system, very flexible and dead quiet. I’m using a 12” Raven arm but one could strap on an OL Conqueror or Encounter for much less and do nearly as good. Also found the Charisma Signature One which will compete with anything under $10k but retails below $4k. I replaced the stock feet with RevOpods and use an LP-1 weight. Really extraordinary setup that delivers musically. Sempersonus’ launch was hindered by COVID but as the world comes back online I anticipate great things for Paulo and company including US distribution, reviews, etc. I have no affiliation just a very happy camper! |
frozentundra, I think the Brinkmann Bardo is a beautiful design, it also is not suspended and has a huge magnet right under your cartridge, a very sensitive magnetic device. Ask Mark Dohmann why he does not use a direct drive motor on his Helix. Please watch this. It has some very basic turntable science explained beautifully. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rgK0YMsJXM |
In addition to naimfan's suggestions, try to hear the Roksan Xerxes and Vertere turntables.
Older Xerxes are available used at very reasonable prices and will knock spots off Project and Rega decks. |
Encouraging a Person to expand on their Experiences of Listening to various TT Set Ups, produced from a Variety of Permutations of a TT's and Ancillaries is a worthy contrubution.
Encouraging the OP to consider investigating how a already owned TT can be worked with in the Home System, might add a little complexity, but it is a method carried out by most TT owners, who are seeking that little extra from their own set ups.
A Cartridge Type used on a particular Set Up when well matched to the Ancillaries can in certain cases experienced, be a complete let down.
I have been to arranged meetings where the theme has been to have a selection of Cartridges lined up on exchangable MS-9 Headshells.
The only change in the Operational Parameters on the TT being the Cartridge.
Different Phonostages and SUT's have been available to see if a improvement can be made to a interface within the system.
My experience has been there are Cartridges that I don't believe underperformed in any way, their presentation has been consitent in each Audition.
The lesson learned for myself, is that there are certain Cartridges when used on a TT and Tonearm of my choice do not deliver in a manner that I consider to suit my preferences.
As a result of my Participation I use a Cartridge Design that was made known from my experiencing the Comparisons.
To be able to make such an assessment, doeas take a little foot work.
It has required making an arrangement to meet with other like minded enthusiasts, travel a little, spend time in good company and participate in a enjoyable experience of Auditions/Demonstrations.
What did I do? I did not remain insular and rest on my laurels about the position I had attained.
I humbled myself and drew on the experience of others, who had attained far more experience in such matters than myself.
The end result of such a undertaking in terms of lessons learned about the Sound Quality of a TT Set Up, with a variety of permutations has been very insightful.
What did I not do, I did not use my eyes as my guide, I left the Lure of Bling behind as a suggestion of being Quality a long time ago.
This was replaced by a much more beneficial method of investigation, where my ears have been depended on.
As an Audiophile, I work on the Basis that I am in pursuit of Sound, and the more endearing the Sound and Satisfying to my own unique preferences the better.
To suggest to a OP with a inquiry to make the time to rely on their own ears to help them learn the Varieties of Sound that can be perceived from receiving a Audition / Demonstration of a TT Set Up.
Is certainly not misguiding them.
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I have a Bardo w the upgraded SS power supply, Triplaner arm, Lyra Delos into a Herron. Importantly TT is on a HRS base engineered for it. You can see pics of that system in my virtual systems page, Casa Pacifica.
Neutral, musical, listen for hours..
as I said Brinkmann also builds a very fine tonearm…
somebody above gave you excellent advice on Well Tempered Amadeus, super musical. Not sure Basis makes something in your $ range, but they are excellent.
have fun
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Tablejocky:
I keep hearing of Brinkman Bardo from this string
Im going to take a look at it ? DIrect Drive?
What it is sound signature compared to others ?
what arm goes best with it ?
seem like a reasonable deal
Jeff
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There are so many ways to approach this! Have you thought of an ultrasonic record cleaner? If the budget can bear it, how about an Ultrasonic record cleaner, which could be put together relatively cost-effectively with a system from CleanerVinyl, and an upgraded turntable in the 3 to 5K range? I won't mention any example TT's here because that is sure to put some people off. Every analog head has their favorites! I'm sure you can figure that out with a few critical listening auditions under controlled conditions. |
Gents;
Now, we are going in the direction I had hoped!
Definitive choices , not theory and should be , or according to another !
I love the latest posts :
yes, my Budget is that , $10-15k
The best systems I have heard , and listened to extensively
Go from $25-$45k. They have all the good stuff
The big question for me is “ can you get there” for $10k…….
But, My priorities are much more conservative
Jeff
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Pindac, I think you making life far more complicated than it needs to be.
First of all, how a turntable sounds under optimal conditions is not the only important characteristic to pay attention to. There are other issues that are very important such as how well is the cartridge isolated from the environment and how well does the tonearm track a warped record? How nice is the turntable to use? Can you put your hand down on it to cue a record?
Much of a turntable's and tonearm's performance can be determined by just looking at them with a critical eye. They are in truth very simple mechanical devices. All good turntables with the same cartridge mounted under optimal conditions are going to sound pretty much the same...except maybe to audiophiles to whom hearing is synonymous to hallucinating. |
@frozentundra , I can only tell you what I would buy for that money and I will try to give you reasons why
I would get a Sota Sapphire with the standard drive. If you really want to spend more on the eclipse package, it is your money but you will be hard pressed to notice a difference. Get it with Sota's refex clamp and dust cover. The Sota Sapphire is a classic turntable. It was the very first suspended turntable to "hang" from it's suspension rather than sit on it like the Thorens and Linn turntables, a much more stable design. It was the first turntable that was totally immune to foot fall and just about everything else. It's dust cover is isolated from the sub chassis to which are mounted the platter and tonearm. You can and should use it during play. It further isolates playback from the environment. The Sota's suspension system was so good it was copied by both Basis and SME.
It is much less sensitive to whatever you place it on. You can strike it vertically with a hammer with the volume all the way up and you will not hear a thing. There is no alternative in this price range. The next step up would be the Sota Cosmos Vacuum followed by the Dohmann Helix.
I would put a Schroder CB tonearm on it. The Schroder is a brilliant design. It has great bearings in the right locations limiting warp wow, magnetic antiskating (no friction) and no unnecessary contacts between the cartridge and phono stage. It is a neutral balance arm, VTF does not change with elevation. It is, in spite of it's sophistication very simple looking. I love that. Alternatives would be the Reed 2G and the Kuzma 4 Point 9
Next would be the cartridge. I would get a Soundsmith "The Voice" It is a moderate output moving iron design with a top notch fine line stylus and ruby cantilever. It is a far better value than any moving coil cartridge in some ways there is no moving coil cartridge that can outperform it. It will be more dynamic and have a much better signal to noise ratio. I doubt there is a moving coil cartridge that can out track it. The Soundsmith is made in the States and service is reported to be excellent. Re tipping is relatively inexpensive. Alternatives would be the Clearaudio Charisma, a great rock and roll cartridge for sure and a grand less expensive than the Soundsmith. The least expensive moving coil cartridge I really like is the Ortofon Windfeld Ti. It is 1 grand more expensive than the Soundsmith and to get the best out of it one should have a current mode phono stage like the Channel D Lino C
In disclosure I have both a Schroder CB and Soundsmith Voice sitting in boxes waiting for their turntable, a Sota Cosmos Vacuum. |
The inquiry has gone from revealing the Devices in use and these equate to a calculation that there is probably a $1200 - $1500 TT Set Up in use in a system.
There is also a interest expressed in learning of a Budget that might need to be allocated to produce a New TT Set Up that will potentially outperform the one in use.
Within one day of replies the Budget seems to have hit 10K as a suggestion, and as a acceptable outlay.
I hope that this is not so, I hope the experiences of other Vinyl Sources are pursued prior to even condidering a Budget.
A itch is a itch, and will usually require a scratch at some point.
If this is the Case I would do as suggested, build up on a Collection of Albums, and select a choice Batch of Albums to be used at the TT demonstrations that are 'Hopefully' going to Organised.
Setting up Auditions of a 10k System from a few different Vendors will be interesting.
Different Drives of Drive Designs, Different Tonearms, Cartridges and Phonostages, will be quite revelatory.
With these Auditions imprinted in ones mind,especially how the Albums being palyed are remembered, will serve as a good foundation for other arranged visits.
Additionally arrange to visit a few other different Vendors and Audition the same as above at a Budget between 4K-6K.
If all the Auditions can be arranged across a short period of time, the impressions made will be very recollectable, and the shortcomings of a presentation, that leans away from your preferences and attractors can be cherry picked out with considerable ease.
In preparation for this experience, if this type of build up to a Purchase is chosen.
The Home System can be better prepared for the New TT's arrival,
using the already owned TT to assess any benefits to be had from the Preparations.
A Wall Mounted Dedicated TT Mounting Shelf could be installed, if not already in use.
Coming away from using the Factory Supplied Footers and using a Purpose produced Footer can produce very noticeable improvements to a TT's presentation, Bass can appear.
Trialling a Few Different Platter Mat Materials can change the Presentation of a TT with a remarkable improvement, Bass can appear with a whole new presence.
All the above methods are able to be transferred over, and be used on any New TT Acquisitions.
If the above preparations are utilized, there are additional experiments that can be tried out on the already owned TT, and when decided, these can again be quite beneficial when used on a different TT.
Revisiting a few of the different Cartridge Alignment Geometries can work to ones favor and offer a presentation that is to an individuals preferences, not all TT owners use the same Geometries.
Building in confidence and taking the Time to Dial in the Cartridge to the alignments where it really 'pops' can in some cases leave the impression a New Cartridge is in use, and Bass can be discovered.
There is very little to lose if the above is adopted.
When coming home from an Audition and putting a used Album onto your System, the findings might just show you the 'Laws of Diminishing Returns' are very prevailant and noticeably evident in your own investigations. |
I was in the same predicament. I have a Rega P3 and wanted to step up so I went and asked Bob what to do. Bob at Bob’s Devices is a really great guy and many people think his SUTs are the best way to deal with an MC cartridge. He talked me out of expensive turntables, which he sells, and into one of his SUTs the SKY 20, for medium out put MCs and then said the biggest problem, is that most phono sections are crap. He told which phono amps he likes, there are only two. And as the one guy did not respond I bought this: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/elekit/345254-eq1616d-phono-amp.htmlNow i can build stuff like this, so I just got the kit from Victor as waiting for Sunvalley to build one might take a while. I’m pretty sure this the right direction to go. Bob says after I get this working well, the SKY 20 to SV-EQ1616D to my preamp, a better cartridge should be next, then after this is all sorted, he will happily sell me a VPI Prime Scout. ;) |
From a Pro-Ject Classic a reasonable "next step" could be a Thorens TD1600/01. The 1600 is 3X the price of a Classic, adds effective sub-chassis isolation, can use your Hana SL nicely. OR you could look into a Well Tempered Amadeus 254 for well under $10K. Do you have the battery charger power supply for the Phonomena? |
