No question about it, you can make vinyl outperform a CD. I'll assume the amp and the speakers are OK since the CD uses them too, and you like the CD sound.
So that leaves us to think about the table, the cartridge, the setup of the cartridge, and the phono section of your amp. It's cheap and easy to check your turntable speed with a strobe app on your phone and the markings on the side of your platter. Also free to check the setup of the cartridge, tracking weight needs a $25 stylus gauge from Amazon, but overhang and VTA are simple (print off a protractor from the web if one did not come with the TT). VTA is a possible culprit if your sound is too thin. Did the cartridge come with the table? Used? If used, how many hours on the stylus? These could all be looked at before jumping into a new cartridge or an outboard phono section. With your budget, I'd probably not try to get into MC cartridges. A decent MM (I like Shure), or MI (eg Nagaoka MP-110) will be enough to murder a CD. Everyone has their favourite makes and models. Don't rush into it, as simply throwing money at things often doesn't work, but don't give up either. Remember what it was that captivated you. You can get it again.
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Given the age I infer you to be… I would skip vinyl. Could you equal your digital end for a grand? Maybe. But $2K or $3K would be better. But why not just invest in the single digital side… upgrade to the Qobuz service which will sound much better. Use the money to upgrade you weakest component. So, unless you are in love with fiddling with records for the sake of fiddling. Digital is getting better rapidly and will continue to do so.
I have a really good vinyl and digital end that sounded the same for a long time. But I have 2,000 pristine albums collected over 50 years. So, I’ll keep my vinyl… I’m also an old fart.
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What sounds better,.,,vinyl or cd......I will tell you its a matter of production. I have each that sounds better than the other.
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Now I am at a cross roads…
Sounds like a scene from Supernatural, or some other soul selling show.
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I agree with ghdprentice. Digital and vinyl investments used to be almost equal about ten years ago. Now I find that one needs to invest about $4-5K if they want their vinyl to rival their $1-2K digital front end. Does that mean the digital front end at that investment performs exceptionally? Not at all, but it is easier and cheaper to get farther with digital than it is with vinyl. If you have limited budget and can deal without the sacrilegious rituals of flipping vinyl, I encourage you to do so.
I have tried to walk away from vinyl and have gotten awfully close in the past, but as Stingreen mentions, my setups too are now at a point where it depends on the production. Instead, I’ve slimmed down the vinyl that doesn’t make the cut.
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Justin572,
You can slaughter the sound of standard digital music with vinyl, but for your budget, it would take careful choice of equipment. I am a music lover as well as an audiophile. We had a pioneer record player when i married over 40 years ago, yes I'm old, lol. When we jumped back into vinyl about a decade ago, we were given a vintage pioneer of similar quality. It had a $35 vintage cart on it. We owned a vintage Yamaha (year 2000) flagship amp with a built in MM phono preamp, so we were set to plug and play. It was great fun, finding vinyl gems for 25c at the flea markets. Our dvd/cd player in the system was a $500 (in 2000) Yamaha 5 disc player, but we loved the warmth of vinyl playback. You could hear the thinness of standard digital on the system. We had good quality speakers, and the Yamaha amp was $3k back in 2000. So our basic set up was no slouch. We were satisfied, for a while.
Fast forward to today, we learned about how to choose used records that were pristine, and we collected about 1800 records, most of which are audiophile pressings. You MUST clean used records if you want good playback, a spin clean and its matching record cleaning solution will cost about 100 dollars and will greatly help to clean up the sound of old records. We started with that and ended up buying a vacuum record cleaner when we upgraded other gear and started buying expensive pressings. When we would come across an especially dirty, but excellent record, we often start with the SpinClean, , then use the vacuum unit to finish the job.
So, read some reviews on your equipment, see what cartridges and amps the reviewers say sound good with them, and go from there. With vintage, to get good sound, you need some synergy. If you have strident speakers, you might want a more forgiving amp that rolls off the top end. The speaker cables and interconnects are not generally neutral either until you are into the several hundred dollar range, but choosing some decent cables to help adjust your sound toward neutral can help the music present better. We started with Radio shack wire and ended up with some neutral, high quality Tara labs, MIT and audioquest interconnects. We did upgrade speaker cables, and probably need to replace them again, but we found some vintage MIT-750 cables from a decade past (now 2 decades past) and bought them for our system to replace monster cables. Speaker cables that were maybe $1800 new, we got for $300 or so. So looking back a decade or so can help keep cost down. Rule of thumb, whatever your music set up costs, plan on spending 20% of that for cables. Don’t buy $1000 cables for a $300 amp. But don’t buy $10 cables for an $800 amp either. Matching —back to synergy—will help.
You have to decide if you are interested enough in vinyl to do the research, look for records, clean them; look for used gear that works well together. A mismatched turntable/cartridge/amp/preamp can sound awful, or the speakers and amp aren’t a good match—but if you like your digital playback then the speakers and amp are probably ok. whereas sometimes it only takes finding out which element is mismatched with the rest to adjust and get decent playback.
If you enjoy the process, pursue your vinyl. If you just want to push a button and listen to music, then let the vinyl go. Either way, it is the music that is important, however you like it.
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Wow. That's a lot of very considered advice fast. If digital really offers that much value, maybe I have to consider spending very judiciously on the vinyl and focus on getting the best out of one source. I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet though, at least not without making sure the kit I have now is set up properly.
Dogberry, It is interesting that you mention checking the setup of the turntable first. I didn't ask too many questions because I bought it from an old fella that was really more interested in telling stories than anything else, and I got a smokin' deal on it. It would have felt rude to start grilling him over it. On the way out the door he actually gave me a couple of EQs just because he had a stack of them and kinda had to thin them out.
Anyway, when I got home, I looked up the specs from sure and it is supposed to have about 1.25 grams of tracking force, but it was set at 2 grams. I set it by the book. I could try bumping the force back up, but I don't want to damage any vinyl. Would 2g of force have damaged the stylus? I'll also check on the overhang and VTA.
Right now the sound is thin, lacking detail, and fatiguing.
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deeelbee,
I think we were posting at the same time. Funny coincidence - I am also using RadioShack RCA cables. For speaker cables though, I have an old 14ga extension cord that I cut up. I suppose that's not really audiophile grade, but it is very nice non-recycled copper. I'm not against spending some money cables, I just don't think it is wise to do so before I have the major components of my system sorted out.
For record cleaning, all I have is a brush. I started looking at spin cleaners, vacuums, and ultra-sonics a few weeks ago. I became overwhelmed with the noise of the internet trying to sell me stuff and gave up on it.
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This is exactly how I imagined it would sound given the cheap table and mid-fi integrated with built-in phono amp.
Right now the sound is thin, lacking detail, and fatiguing.
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YOLO. Grab the bull by the horns and get the following:
Pioneer PLX1000, Nagaoka MP110, Schiit Mani phono amp, Spin Clean, decent set of RCA cables.
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is it just harder to get performance from vinyl?
It's harder and way more expensive.
Do you think it would be realistic to get to the performance of the digital side of the system for say, a $1000 investment, or is that just a pipe dream?
No. It’s a pipe dream.
Unless you have a lot of vinyl, I’d focus on getting your digital system tuned up. Maybe some decent speaker cables and interconnects. Don’t spend more than $200 each. (I have a Raven Osprey and run all Raven Audio cables - really nice and very reasonable and you can try them at home for 45 days).
Get blue tooth out of the streaming equation. As an example, I have a Bluesound Node ($600) and Tidal Hi-Fi @ $10 mth. (skip the higher priced subscription with MQA). Sounds amazing and that is compared to my analogue source that I spent $14K on (which I love, but still...)
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@noromance +1! I recommend the Pioneer PLX1000 ($699) as the best choice for a starter TT. I added one to my extensive collection of vintage TT’s. I put a Denon 103R ($340) on it. The Schiit Mani 2 ($150) is just about all the phono stage you will ever need. No need to spend lots on cables. The Pioneer comes with a high quality RCA cable. For the rest Monoprice cables/speaker wire is fine.
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An LP can sound wonderful and come close to a CD/digital file - but no cigar! The inherent problems/limitations of LP playback cannot be eliminated. Speaking from someone who has many LP's.
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OP,
You are doing the right thing with cables and interconnects… wait until you have all the components in your system. Even then, there is a threshold where cables and interconnects begin to make a difference. Audio systems are like scientific instruments… the better they are the more sensitive they are. Get the very best components you can afford. Then get to know the sound intimately and then maybe think about cables and interconnects. Btw, a great trick is 10 gauge 3 wire Home Depot power cord for speaker wire… cut off ends just like you did. This could be a great test later. Compare your current cables with HD 10G cables.
Yes also to paraphernalia in vinyl… a good record vacuum cleaner is, well not necessary, but really close to that. A dust brush, instruments to adjust. Stylist cleaner… each you will find violent discussions on line as to which is better. You find what I am talking about… come on in, the water is hot. I learned all this when there was no alternatives. My system is shown under my UserID if you are interested.
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Today I borrowed my brothers Rega RP1 turntable and did a quick A-B-C comparison using the best vinyl I own; A remastered Japanese pressing of John Lenon and Yoko Ono - Double Fantasy that I bought new.
It didn't take long to figure out that the problem is with my Sony. The Rega, while tremendously noisy at idle sounds very good. I think it is every bit as good as digital, though it shines in different ways. Flipping back and forth between the Rega and digital, in my opinion, was pleasant all around. Each highlighted the strengths and weakness of the other.
Back on the subject of my old Sony, I noticed that the sound of the needle was barely audible while sitting next to it, while it was easy to hear the Rega from my listening spot, about 10' away. On the amp, I ran the volume at about 9 o'clock with the Rega, and just past 12 with the Sony.
I think my next step should be to turn up the tracking force, but is there a rule of thumb to determine how to do it safely?
+
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ghdprentice,
I took a look at your system, and it is very impressive. I would love to have a chance to listen to something like that. Where I live, in New Brunswick Canada, there doesn't seem to be much interest in high-end sound systems. I think the dog is a particularly nice addition. I bet it really helps with room reflections, haha.
As to violent discussions about records and record accessories. YEAH, I noticed eh! I have been reading quite a bit and so far I have learned that everything is both the best and the worst, makes difference, but can also make or break your system, digital and analog are both the future, and tubes and solid state are also the best/worst thing ever.
I actually almost decided not to make a first post at all because of all the negativity, but I noticed that this forum seems to favor cordial discussion. I'm very glad I did post, because every single response has been very helpful and encouraging.
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Increasing the tracking force will not help the output gain of the Shure on your Sony table. Your Shure cartridge is listed at a 4.7mV output, nearly double of the 2.5mV output from a Rega Carbon MM (if that’s what’s on the Rega RP1), so that is very surprising that the gain is lower. It should be a bit louder. But even if tracking force is too light, as long as the sound is coming out, it should be amplified at that output.
On the other hand, always ensure you have a stylus scale on measure tracking force and always follow the tonearm’s instructions for setup.
It sounds to me as if the cartridge and/or table are problematic. That said, the RP1 is a very limited beginner table. Should you ever want to invest more in vinyl down the road, the RP1 will be one of the first things you will move from because of the quality of the plinth and lack of adjustability in the tonearm to ensure cartridges are set up optimally.
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Justin,
I’d doubt you’ve harmed any of your records playing them a few times at 2g. But if the past owner was careless about that, what else was he not paying close attention to? If that cartridge has been run for hundreds of hours at 2g it probably isn’t performing too well any more. I don’t see the purpose in repeating the previous owner’s mistake and setting it back to 2g. The only real rule is the manufacturer’s recommendation.
I was going to point out to the CD fans that it’s possible to spend thousands on a CD player/DAC and still find that vinyl involves you more. I bought, after many expensive errors an Ayre C-5xe, their last multi-format disk player. It cost about 8kCDN in 2005, and it’s still the best CD/SACD player I’ve heard. But I choose to play records rather than CDs or SACDs. And at that time I was using an RP3 and a Shure V15 VxMR (maybe a quarter of the CD player's cost). That made me go full time back into vinyl. But then I saw you had proved it for yourself with your brother’s turntable.
I’d replace that cartridge if I were you. Something like a Nagaoka MP-110 will cost you $150 and should be enough to do the job. Buy a Spin Clean for $80 and use it. Those would be my recommended first steps and I’d want to know the results before spending a penny more of your money. We don’t know for sure if the rest of your bargain Sony is performing as it should yet.
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OP,
Thank you for your kind words. If, for some reason you get into the Portland Oregon area, please contact me. I’d be happy to meet up. I am very jealous of where you live. I am very ashamed of being a US citizen. Much of my career was living internationally… apologizing for our politics and politicians. If I was younger, I would move to Canada or Northern Europe… or better yet a small island in the South Pacific.
But aside from where we live. Audiophiles are generally far between. Putting together a great system is not easy anywhere… although it does get easier in large metropolitan areas.
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If I was younger, I would move to Canada or Northern Europe… or better yet a small island in the South Pacific
The french dropped nukes on some of those.
The digital source sounds better, as in WAY better. On digital, listening gives me that first date butterflies feeling every time, and I just want to turn it up, and up some more. On vinyl there is just less, less of everything…
Maybe just stay with the digital then?
I have an old TT, and it has been great and sounds stunningly good to me.
And it is a bit better than the iPad pushing the bits through a DAC.
it is so good, I’ve decided to rebuild it with a new motors controller, arm, and cart, etc.
Digital seems easier and cheaper, but I also read about people spending up on power conditioning and other things, that the TT does not seem to care about.
Basically I am not sure you can get better sound then digital, at some of the lower price points.
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@ghdprentice Your first post +1. OP should stay digital. He has limited resources and knowledge of record players. His record player is poor and probably not well set up. No wonder his present system can't match Amazon Music, although not being interested, I don't know the SQ of that. He should check out the parameters of the Amazon offering and perhaps move to a better quality digital source.
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Unless you already have a substantial vinyl collection you are way better off sticking to digital sources. Building a vinyl system that will compete with digital is expensive and time consuming. Vinyl is a PITA. Why so many of us love it (includes me) is a mystery. But with thousands of records I have little choice. My vinyl rig alone will cost all told $70,000. That is ridiculous.
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That's a big investment, and certainly nothing I will ever come near. The kids and I spent a few hours going through the collection last night, and discovered that we had quite a bit of unusual stuff. I have some stuff from local and Newfoundland musicians that I will never find on digital. Also, it's a great way to spend time with the kids. Those reasons are enough to decide that the vinyl has to stay. I'm not going to aim for a super-duper system, but just try to get it to a point where it is reasonably competent and enjoyable.
The best route, I would think, would be to get my Sony singing as well as possible. The table however, seems to be drawing a bit of hate on here and I'm not exactly sure why. It is a heavy built mid-fi table, that was at the top of Sony's middle tier products in the late 70s. It gets glowing user reviews online. Here is a link to the description: http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-PS-X6.html
I'm not looking to jump up and defend something that I know very little about. I'm just trying to understand why the recommendations to throw it away and replace it with a newer - also mid-fi table. I bought it because I reasoned that a good unit, built during the hayday of phono should still be good today. Has the technology advanced so much?
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I think the "bit of hate" for the Sony comes from your experience swapping it out for the Rega. Something is wrong with the cartridge, tonearm or table setup with the Sony. But I agree with the OP that getting the Sony up to spec is a good first approach. Concentrate on the cartridge. It would probably be super easy to find a new cantilever/stylus for the Shure M95 cart. LP Gear is a great source if you want to avoid Ebay. Shure may not make the stylus anymore but I bet someone else makes something that works.
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Justin - I just read the replies in between mine. Where in NB are you?
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Karl,
Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head. It seems obvious at this point that somesomething is up with the Sony. I need to spend some time and probably some money on fixing it up.
Earlier, someone commented that if I replace the cart, I souldn't bother with MC unless I'm ready to really spend some money. Are the cheaper MC cartriges going to be a disapointment?
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Fredericton? A bit too far then.
The bias against cheap MCs is because MM and MI cartridges sound very good, and for an MC to beat them it usually will be a good deal more expensive. They are harder to make, and much harder to make so that they sound better.
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Stylii get old and tired.
A new cartridge should liven things up. Very good recommendations by others on this forum.
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Small world. My wife is from Truro.
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I just wanted to thank everyone for your advice. I have taken much of it to heart. I did upgrade my digital source to USB, which has reduced the graininess of digital.
I have also ordered a better record cleaner.
I was on the brink of ordering a new cartridge, when a malfunction with the turntable became obvious. The turntable has an auto-play function, and the raising and lowering of the tone arm is controlled by a rest located near the pivot. The rest has developed a problem where it lowers just exactly enough to allow the needle to touch the record, but the rest remains in contact with the tonearm. If I push the rest down with my finger, the sound is much improved.
I still don't love the sound, but I think that is a matter of personal taste now. This cartridge has quite a bit of emphasis on the high end, which I am not fond of. I think I will keep it for a little while, but down the road I will look for something flatter and more detailed.
Thanks again to all for your help.
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