Neglected to mention three dedicated streamers I've used, therefore, streamers without server capability. These commonly called two computer setups. Which leads me to emphasize rendering or port optimization and integration with dacs. Best ports on streamers and dacs can vary greatly, one needs to match streamer to dac here. For instance far too many servers are less than optimal with usb implementation, rendering of the usb is critical for max performance, and very likely plays role in my preference for Roon vs Stylus proprietary player via new streamer. The JCAT usb card with it's optimal rendering could upset the scale. Another streamer I came close to purchasing, the Antipodes K50 claims AES/EBU is optimal port, and other streamers may prefer I2S, one must do the research with both streamer and dac in order to discover optimal compatibility.
Also, it wasn't my intention to rate music players, I only have direct experience with Roon, Audirvana, Foobar, HQPlayer, and now Stylus, I have no idea what is preferable for someone else and their setups. My only intent is to state I'm getting sublime SQ with my present Roon setup, perhaps Stylus will outperform in time. I can understand the logic for why it should, and for why any proprietary player could do same.
|
Many of us state streamers most important because we hear great differences with streamer changes. Of course this assumes one already has highly resolving dac and system. The thing about dacs today is not all that difficult or expensive to achieve high resolution, transparency, the presentation or what some may call color is greatest variable these days. Even more digital sounding dacs can sound far more analog with streamers and network upgrades that minimize jitter.
I've been through five streamers and same number of dacs over the past few years, the streamers have more variable sound quality than dacs. Also, the top echelon streamers will really take one past digital sound plateau, one can achieve streaming SQ that approaches or competes with the best vinyl rig setups. I know this first hand from what I'm hearing today via my streaming vs the best of best vinyl rig setups I've heard over the years.
And my own vinyl setup is pretty nice even without having even heard recent $16K in upgrades. The problem is the streaming is so nice I can't stop listening to streams, I start off listening sessions with intention to fire up my old vinyl setup, but I'm so involved with the music I don't get around to it. I don't even have new cartridge mounted or phono stage connected, and this has gone on for over a month! I know, crazy!!
Streaming is the future, the future is now. As stated above in a post, streaming is now pretty mature technology, streaming can be one's best or only highest quality source, no need for media hardware any more. Not dismissing cd's or vinyl, just saying no need to go this route anymore.
|
It’s clear that purely subjective personal preferences rule
Sure, how else can it be? It’s audio so you judge and decide based upon listening. You’re going to live with the product as it reproduces recorded music. If one doesn’t enjoy what they hear why bother with it? Absolutely and rightly so, subjective by default.
Charles
|
It doesn’t matter what comes first these days as long as you like the end result. It’s hard to find a clearly bad combo.Technology these days is that good. It’s clear that purely subjective personal preferences rule.
|
While Taiko did use Roon, it moved on to TAS, and is now in the process of completing the very purpose-built XDMS software, which essentially all users who have it say it is easily the best software for the Extreme - XDMS is I believe not in fully finished form yet, but can be downloaded to the Extreme in I think Alpha or Beta release, with help of the Taiko support staff- it is a Taiko-built product. Likewise, TAS, as mentioned above, was almost universally preferred over Roon, on a sound quality basis. As Lalitk said, Emil, designer of the Taiko Extreme, stated that XDMS is all about the sound quality. I believe you can still use Roon on the Extreme, but it will not yield the best sound quality. And some do still use it at least part time because they love the feature-rich application.
Emil also noted that the problem with Roon is that they often release updates for the software and they are not focused on sound quality, but rather the useability of the software. From what I've read, many users, and I think server manufacturers, have provided their opinion on this sound quality issue to Roon.
As a side note, Wadax use Roon as their software interface. I believe it is a very custom set and I believe it is locked down so it can't influence sound quality. But you'd have to ask Mike Lavigne about that because he has very in-depth knowledge of the Wadax gear, in addition to being an owner/user. You can read about that here on Agon and on WBF.
|
I have to say I’m shocked to see so many saying streamer first! The output stages of the DAC are directly in the signal path, and circuit architecture truly does make a distinct difference. I will always do the DAC first; it always pays off.
|
I have been streaming from cocktail audio X45Pro , streaming from IFI zen stream with IFI power elite and Teac NT505 to my preamp moon P8/W8 and I do not hear any difference with exception of XLR output really hard for me to understand that a streamer make a huge difference
|
@sns
Thank you. A serious mission you’ve embarked on that is reaping high level sonic reward.
Charles
|
Thanks guys, many paths to great sound!
@charles1dad With the way I'm presently setup starting at streamer. Ethernet input to JCAT NET XE board in streamer (streamer powered by the JCAT Optimo, 2 cables bundles used to power processor and motherboard Optimo has three rails, third is for internal local drives, I'm using NAS for local files so no internal drives, JCAT ethernet board powered by Uptone JS2 lps, so another cable and lps) ethernet out of JCAT board to OpticalModule (dc cable and lps for power), optical cable out of OM to OpticalRendu ( DC cable to second rail on Uptone JS2), usb out of OR to usb in on dac. So boxes add up to 3, also 3 lps, 3 DC cables and AC power cables. I can also go with the simpler setup with streamer direct to dac. I also have myriad choices of how I can configure Stylus, HQPlayer and Roon players, this with or without Sonore optical bundle.
@lalitk At some point I will get to more critical listening with the Stylus player, really need to get JCAT USB XE board to get full potential of Stylus, thus far only used via somewhat optimized Intel usb board mounted on motherboard. I'm open minded enough to realize Roon may be surpassed by Stylus at some point, just enjoying Roon so much at present!
|
"I can only say the present sound quality I’m getting with Roon is absolute4ly revelatory"
@sns
I am sure it is revelatory with your custom build server. Please enjoy your journey and experimentation with the Stylus or HQPlayer players. I hope to read your feedback on aforementioned players vs ROON.
|
@sns
Congratulations on achieving such a high level of sound quality utilizing Roon. Purely out of curiosity, how many boxes/cables etc does this require?
Charles
|
@lalitk Missed my point. I agree with you exactly, Roon sound quality IS all over the place with different servers/renderers. This is exactly the reason why sound quality of Roon in one setup CANNOT be extrapolated to ALL setups. Sure, there are plenty of individuals preferring other music players to Roon, so are you saying this negates all those who prefer Roon. I can only say the present sound quality I'm getting with Roon is absolute4ly revelatory, not a word I use lightly, in fact have not used once in thirty years of audiophile system building.
As for direct comparisons, I have the direct experience of the builder/assembler and subsequent owner of my custom streamer in comparing it to a number of off the shelf streamers which included the Aurender W20SE. They preferred this custom build running full Stylus to the Aurender running Conductor player. Both only sold the custom build after direct comparisons with Taiko Extreme which both purchased. So, how this relates to Roon is I'm preferring Roon with two computer setup to the setup they both preferred which is full Stylus running on the custom streamer. Now, custom build was not in same configuration as when they owned in that they were using HDPlex SMPS powered by Sean Jacobs and/or other top flight LPS, I'm using JCAT Optimo S ATX full lps, far superior to the HDPlex solution. Perhaps the superior noise elimination of the JCAT vs HDPLex is what makes the difference for my Roon preference, hard to say. Or perhaps its my particular setup with Sonore OpticalModule and OpticalRendu, which means LPS, cables used, again, hard to say.
Although I'm not done with experimenting with the Stylus or HQPlayer players, perhaps they'll prove to be superior with different configurations/settings, much to experiment with here. But the main point is I'm getting sensational sound quality with Roon at present, over a hundred hours in and sound quality remains revelatory. Perhaps the revelation will turn into ho hum, but until it does I have absolutely NO motivation to further experiment with players. And isn't the point to enjoy our systems or 'painting' as you put it, some theoretical argument or other people's negative experience with Roon isn't impacting my sound quality or my enjoyment of it.
|
“Whether Roon is optimized for the wide variety of streamers its used on is the question.”
@sns
IME, Nope. Its sound quality is all over the place with different servers/renders. The whole concept of keeping render + core separate (chassis) is deeply flawed…too many variables in-between that are potentially impacting its final rendering. After 18 months of fiddling with ROON on two different servers, to my ears and in my system; ROON is not in the same league as Conductor in terms of absolute sound quality. Does ROON sounds fine, ofcourse it does. But you don’t dump $30-$40K in your digital front end to hear something that just sounds FINE. The overwhelming feedback from Taiko, Pink Faun and Innuos owners is proof enough…no further objective comparison undertaking necessary or needed, nuff said!
|
@sns
I observe individuals claiming great sound quality with virtually all music player software out there, until an objective comparison directly comparing these music players with a variety of streamers is undertaken I’ll assume all can supply fine sound quality
I don’t know who would arrange or conduct such an objective comparison undertaking. It appears that the individual brands have developed successful proprietary apps and good quality sound. People are very happy with their “Sense”,”Conductor “etc. It seems if listeners are very satisfied with the sound quality and user interface of their respective music servers/network players then mission has been accomplished.
Roon no doubt is a very good comprehensive product but not everyone wants or needs it. There are multiple pathways to streaming contentment.
Charles
|
I used Roon for a year. After careful listening I felt the DSP functions were like using PhotoShop, it just added a layer of digital noise and made listening fatiguing, but fun to play with. I don't miss it.
Innuos Sense is hands down better sounding than Roon.
Sense fully integrates with Qobuz. I enjoy the HiFi Partners Playlists.
Sense is free and keeps getting better.
|
|
I don't doubt the proprietary players best with the streamers they're optimized to work with. Whether Roon is optimized for the wide variety of streamers its used on is the question. No doubt the Roon interface requires more processing than the stripped down proprietary players, running more processes means more opportunity for noise to be generated. This doesn't mean motherboard generated noise has to affect SQ, my custom build has linear power supply dedicated solely for the processor, another for the motherboard, and the PCIe cards for various interfaces totally isolated via extensive on board filtering, clocking and external linear power supplies. Any noise generated by motherboard doesn't make it to the network port or usb renderer/port.
For individuals with streamers that don't have embedded proprietary music player software there are various music players available via subscription such as the Stylus which is available within Euphony OS or as endpoint only via Stylus EP. Others could then compare these proprietary players vs Roon. My own comparisons of these two is still ongoing, Euphony OS allows settings for Stylus I have yet to try.
Also, Roon likely has deepest pockets of all the music player software developers, means constant ongoing upgrades. One also should be mindful that streamer manufacturers using Roon are extremely likely to be working alongside Roon in order to optimize streamer/Roon integration, this would include attention to sound quality.
The fact the proprietary players embedded in certain streamers preferred to Roon doesn't mean Roon SQ inherently inferior. Roon users also not obligated to use any of the filters/volume leveling/dsp, fact is I turn every one of these off, I hear sound degradation with some of these.
I observe individuals claiming great sound quality with virtually all music player software out there, until an objective comparison directly comparing these music players with a variety of streamers is undertaken I'll assume all can supply fine sound quality.
|
What is the basis for people asserting these other streamers they happen to fancy are somehow better than the Cambridge? In what way other than perhaps cost? Anything concrete to back it up? Has anyone actually compared what they suggest with what the OP already has? What about feature comparisons? That can vary a lot with streamers. The Cambridge streamers tend to get top notch reviews in the press so that would suggest they are pretty good.
|
“I don’t believe Roon is inherently inferior music player. I doubt Taiko would be using Roon in their Extreme streamers if they thought it had some inherent sonic liabilities.”
@sns
I do not know the exact reason why Taiko didn’t offer XDMS from the onset but it is quite obvious that Taiko designers felt the need to come up with their own UI/App. First TAS and later XDMS rolled out. When a member asked Emile on WBF,
Q. Are room correction convolution filters a possibility in XDMS?
Emile response was, “Not currently, and it’s low priority as XDMS is all about Sound Quality”.
As @grannyring pointed out, Innuos recognized the opportunity to further improve the sound quality and longevity of their enterprise by developing their own Sense App much to the tune of Aurender’s Conductor App. Again, the primary focus behind Sense App is SQ not some fancy interface or loads of features that don’t necessarily contribute towards optimized playback.
Take this feedback as ROON not necessarily being inferior but a clear indication of superior integration, possible only through in-house development of proprietary software and hardware thus yielding to optimized playback performance and stellar customer support.
|
@grannyring I do know the Sense program is far less demanding and with each update sounds better and better. Innuos keeps adding features while improving sound quality
Bill, those are encouraging developments. Has the Sense sound quality upgrade been implemented within the past year? I wonder if there is further improvement with the new Pulse series network players.
Charles
|
It is true most off the shelf streamers use relatively less powerful processors for their lower inherent noise propagation, takes greater mitigation efforts to keep noise at a minimum with the higher power processors.
Roon dsp is pretty awful, HQPlayer plays at much higher level, still in process of determining a final analysis of it's ability to sound as natural as my particular Roon setup. Thus far does excel on resolving powers, but does sound a bit artificial to me at least with PCM over and up sampling. HIgh DSD sampling rates are reportedly the way to go, will try that in time.
I'm also in camp of desiring analog/top flight vinyl sound quality with my digital. Just spent a tidy pile of money in order to bring my vinyl SQ up to the digital.
In the end I think we can all agree many paths to wonderful streaming SQ. If I were to go to off the shelf, Taiko, Wadax, Aurender W20SE, perhaps Antipodes K series or Innuous Statement would be at top of my list. With two machine setup, dedicated server/streamer many more would make the list. I'd only suggest one spend to top level of their financial abilities in streamer purchases if the intention is to make streaming their preferred source.
|
I have read arguments suggesting Roon is unnecessarily burdensome on processors. I really don’t know enough to have an opinion one way or the other. I do know the Sense program is far less demanding and with each update sounds better and better. Innuos keeps adding features while improving sound quality. I understand they are working on offering a Roon Radio type of feature. I hope soon.
|
Roon is inferior sound quality wise on Innuos gear and certainly not in general. I am sure Roon sounds wonderful on other server/streamers. Innuos processing power is purposefully designed to be lower so as to minimize noise. That is one reason they sound so organic and natural. If one owns an Innuos server they have not really heard what it is capable of until they run Sense. Roon certainly sounds good on my Innuos, but falls pretty short sonically to Sense.
One must know their goals and desires with streaming when deciding on a server/streamer. I don’t care about DSD or DSP and really like the linear power supplies and lower processing power design goals of Innuos. This keeps noise to a minimum. I have heard more detailed servers than my Zenith 3, but it’s hard to beat the natural tone and musicality on my Innuos for the money.
I still run Roon for background music only as I use Roon radio to learn about new artists.
If one wants to use DSP heavily and cannot do without some of Roon’s features, then Innuos would perhaps not be the best choice
|
I agree with others that streamer is most important, but then with upgraded streamer the dac or network will become weak link, and around and around it goes.
In the end so many choices, I can't say with large measure of assurance what is best for any other individual. As for myself I can't live without Roon, the interface is just so seamless, and such great utility with multiple configurations in my unique streaming setup. One can also mix and match equipment from various manufacturers, result is sound quality will be extremely variable dependent on entire streaming chain. I don't believe ultimate sound quality with Roon is an issue, I prefer it thus far to the Stylus proprietary music player I have, a player that has a great many positive reviews. One can also use the embedded HQPlayer within Roon for an amazing journey into dsp!. One can over and up sample PCM and DSD, convolution filters aplenty, ability to add individual equalization. Finally, I believe I'm hearing a qualitative difference with the network adapter chosen for a two machine streaming setup,NAA, SqueezeLite, and RoonReady the three I've experimented with.
Adding up the versatility, utility and sound quality I'm getting from Roon makes it an absolute necessity for my streaming. I will say this level of versatility and sound quality requires a fair amount of fiddling and streamer with relatively high power processor, think Intel I7 minimum for HQPlayer. An OS optimized for Roon also required for optimal sound quality, OS optimized for the proprietary players mentioned above probably plays large role in their reported sound quality edge.
Bottom line is I don't believe Roon is inherently inferior music player. I doubt Taiko would be using Roon in their Extreme streamers if they thought it had some inherent sonic liabilities.
|
@lalitk
Thanks and Happy holidays to you and your family. I’m looking forward to what this different DAC design brings to the table.I’ve had my current DAC for over 12 years and still enjoy it very much.
Charles
|
@charles1dad
It appears, 2023 is going to be much more merrier with revamped digital front end :-)
Happy Holidays 🎄
|
Charles, I am eager to hear your comments on the new dac
Bill I hope to have it within the next couple of weeks. It’s shipping from Ukraine so hopefully no custom snags.
Charles
|
Charles, I am eager to hear your comments on the new dac!
|
“I have found that the better the dac the MORE important the server/streamer and other network tweaks become. You need a great server/streamer to hear all your dac has to offer. Upgrades like ethernet filters, ethernet cables, and linear power supplies on your modem/router and switch become more important with a better dac. That’s if you want to hear all your new and more expensive dac can deliver.”
+1, @grannyring …everything matters!
|
Streamer. Sonore has great products. Another route: the new Wiim Pro plus the fiber with FMCs and LPS. Inexpensive, great software and great sound.
|
If it were me, I’d live with what I have until I saved up enough to upgrade both the streamer and the DAC at the same time.
|
@grannyring
Hi Bill, I appreciate your insight and observations very much. I getting my feet wet with regard to audio streaming. Plenty for me to learn and process. I’m determined to get it right with this venture. My new DAC will be shipped from the Ukraine very soon as construction is completed.
I have a splendid CD transport waiting for its arrival. I’d like to also pair it with a high quality streamer/server. So I’ll take my time.😊
Charles
|
I have found that the better the dac the MORE important the server/streamer and other network tweaks become. You need a great server/streamer to hear all your dac has to offer. Upgrades like ethernet filters, ethernet cables, and linear power supplies on your modem/router and switch become more important with a better dac. That’s if you want to hear all your new and more expensive dac can deliver.
A less resolving dac with lower fidelity will not benefit as much from a high quality streamer/server and the various network upgrades.
Also, our playback systems are comprised of more than digital front ends so our amplification and speakers must also be up to the task. Oh my it never ends!
|
@charles1dad
I own the Innuos Zenith 3 and can tell you that Sense sounds far better than Roon on an Innuos player. Roon sounds flat and dull compared to Sense. Sense is more open sounding with better inner detail retrieval and improved realism. Roon’s bass is thicker and has less articulation compared to Sense.
The Sense program is miles ahead of where it was when it was first introduced. I must say Roon is a slightly better interface in terms of available artist info, lyrics, navigation and such. It just is. Roon radio is a very nice feature not offered in Sense. It plays artists similar to the ones you know and love and is a great way to learn of artists you may come to really enjoy. As much as I like the Roon interface I simply can no longer listen to it after hearing Sense! This coming from a Roon lifetime member 😬
I highly recommend getting the Network Acoustics Muon filter package with your streamer. It really improves the streaming experience by improving the realism and your connection to the music. It peels away noise that disrupts engagement. Wonderful piece with a trial period.
|
@fthompson251
Just to be clear I haven't heard the Innuos or the Aurender yet but they're on the radar. I have been receiving from a few folks feedback that's been quite favorable toward Aurender units. I need to explore more.
Charles
|
|
@lollipopguild
Roon is more fully featured, but Sense is simpler and more than enough for me. At least Sense is free, and enabling the Roon trial is also easy. Give it a few months for it all to settle before trying it though.
Thanks, I’m not in a hurry and will sort this out.
Charles
|
|
@charles1dad . Roon is more fully featured, but Sense is simpler and more than enough for me. At least Sense is free, and enabling the Roon trial is also easy. Give it a few months for it all to settle before trying it though.
|
@lollipopguild
Thanks for your reply. I like things that are straightforward and simple. Does this apply to the Innuos Sense app/OS or is there a considerable learning curve involved? They do seem to seriously address power supply quality and that’s important to me. I use a very high quality AC balanced isolation transformer that has served my audio system well.
Charles
|
Hi @charles1dad
Good questions. I bought the Zenith Mk3 a few months ago, but effectively don't use the internal hard drive. 99% of my listening is new stuff, so I stream Qobuz. It's also the case that many of my CDs have since been remastered and rereleased to Qobuz, so sound better streamed than ripped. So, if I had to buy again now the Pulse series would be my preference.
I also added a 2nd hand PhoenixUSB (with great success), so I would look seriously at the Pulsar, which reportedly bundles a USB reclocker. You'll need a good USB cable though.
I recently trialled Roon. Basically, Sense 2.x sounds better than Roon - many would agree with this. The only thing I miss about Roon is their rich DSP feature. We all need a form of tone control occasionally.
Interestingly, one of the biggest gains I made was only a couple of weeks ago. I replaced my 25 year-old entry-level mains conditioner with an Isotek Gemini to feed my Innuos boxes. Was only £300, but brought about huge gains. Innuos put huge emphasis on the quality of their internal PSUs, but it seems to me that they're still very sensitive to mains noise. A decent-ish shielded mains cable will also help. Belden 83803 is very affordable.
|
@lollipopguild
My point is that everything between the ethernet port of your router/switch and the input of your DAC matters a hell of a lot. To state it's only 1s and 0s is to frame it in too binary a statement. You need to understand the digital signal is actually an analogue representation of a digital signal, along with noise and jitter issues.
Well stated .
You own the Zenith music server and I’m contemplating buying an Innuos Pulse network player. What is your opinion of Innuos “Sense “ sound quality and user interface compared with the Roon alternative? I’m just seeking online streaming usage (Internet radio/Tidal/Qobuz). I’d appreciate any feedback.
Charles
|
When I started done this path I was also thinking of the solution as streamer and DAC. As I learned more I added in a separate music server (hardware). I think it is important if you have a large music library (> 2TB+) and use Roon. In the end I moved from a Mac book PS Audio direct stream DAC w/ bridge (streamer) to a Small Green Computer i5 w/ 4TB SSD (music server), Bricasti M3 (DAC), w/ network card (streamer). Integration with my library and Qobuz is seamless, system response time is near realtime and most important sound quality is great at least with my setup in my room. Any streaming issues experienced before went away(ie - interruptions, search delays, etc. Bottom line don't underestimate the value of a physical music server if using Roon.
|
When I started done this path I was also thinking of the solution as streamer and DAC. As I learned more I added in a separate music server (hardware). I think it is important if you have a large music library (> 2TB+) and use Roon. In the end I moved from a Mac book PS Audio direct stream DAC w/ bridge (streamer) to a Small Green Computer i5 w/ 4TB SSD (music server), Bricasti M3 (DAC), w/ network card (streamer). Integration with my library and Qobuz is seamless, system response time is near realtime and most important sound quality is great at least with my setup in my room. Any streaming issues experienced before went away(ie - interruptions, search delays, etc. Bottom line don't underestimate the value of a physical music server if using Roon.
|
This year I upgraded my entire system. The source used to be the same Cambridge as yours, and is now Innuos. As I've also bought new speakers, amp and DAC, plus cabling, it's impossible for me to accurately state where the improvements begin and end. Needless to say though that the SQ is 100x better.
My point is that everything between the ethernet port of your router/switch and the input of your DAC matters a hell of a lot. To state it's only 1s and 0s is to frame it in too binary a statement. You need to understand the digital signal is actually an analogue representation of a digital signal, along with noise and jitter issues.
|
I’ve learned not to underestimate the value of a really good streamer. I started with a Node 2i then worked my way up to an Aurender n100sc and now a Aurender n10. Each jump was an significant improvement over the last. Not to mention that Aurender is a fantastic manufacturer.
|
More impact with a-quality dac for sure everything starts with the dac good or bad .
I own desfrid gear and heard them all, dont overlook the Excellent
T&A dac 200 for $6900 a great piece of technology with HQ player built into the design when used with Roon which was built into Roons programming .
a great addition .
|
I believe it all starts at the top of the chain. I think spending money on a great preamp is one of the best moves you can make. I think the source is equally important.
I bought the N200 knowing it won’t be the potential bottleneck if I upgrade my DAC.
|
“Is there any result of blind testing of Sense vs Roon ? Love to hear it.”
@jeffseight
I don’t believe in blind tests. Fortunately, my system is resolving enough to collaborate differences between hardwares/ softwares and how well they are executed with my hearing. I am a lifetime ROON subscriber and longtime Conductor user. On surface, ROON is good and its SQ greatly varies on hardware implementation. In contrast, Conductor app remained consistent in terms of SQ due to its robust tightly controlled in-house integration with the equally complimentary hardware.
Once you get to experience Sense glitch free, you will relate to what I’m trying to convey. Whether you can hear or appreciate the differences between ROON or Sense will entirely contingent upon your listening environment, system and your hearing.
|
I believe both Innuos and Aurender are well-established high-quality products. Aurender is a complete music server component. Innuos "ZEN" series are complete music servers. Innuos "Pulse" series are streamer/network players. If one does not need or want full music server then a network player is fine and generally speaking less expensive. Both companies have their happy and loyal supporters.
Charles
|
