Telegartner M12 looks fantastic! Thanks for sharing your first impressions @lalitk ! A couple of similar options are Innuos PhoenixNET and the new Synergistic Research switch. For those with a more budget oriented, this is what I have: https://nandeaudio.com/product/silent-switch-ocxo/Prices are in Hong Kong dollars, and I bought direct. The Standard version is less than $800 (US dollars), and the Extreme version is about $1,400 (US) |
I have the EE Switch 8 combined with Network Acoustics ENO cabling and Ethernet filter. The combo is amazing, but not sure if it is up to the M12 in performance. Not done an A/B. I bet it is not, but perhaps a great option for far less money.
@lalitk,
I bet you will know? What say you? |
The Telegärtner M12 Switch Gold sounds very interesting, but goodness it costs more than my switch, server, LPS, router, and cables combined! Look forward to the day this level of sonic improvement is more affordable with switches/filters. |
Listened to my recently purchased RenoLabs Ultimate switch first time. Right off heard increase in resolution, lower noise floor thing. Initially, most noticeable were sound stage or, imaging improvements, a little more 'pop' or separation of individual performers, a more spacious sound stage in macro sense. Detail improvements per se, therefore low level information always heard as sound stage and imaging improvements the past few years. The usual low level information improvements such as hearing some instrument or voice have long been exposed in my system.
And now I come to the not so sure part of initial listening session. For first few hours darker sounding system than previous, a bit less transparency, closed in sound. Over the next couple hours this improved somewhat, still a bit more colored, or less natural than pre switch.
At this point I'm going to put this down to settling and/or burn in issues, what I hear with every component burn in. Different configuration of previous equipment and the added new Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable, along with switch require settling and/or burn in. Based on improvement I heard over first listening session I'm expecting these minor issues will resolve. I also recall and have listening notes that confirm prior network equipment upgrades had burn in period. Prior to first network and USB upgrades I didn't expect burn in issues, this only reinforces the error of that mistaken assumption.
I also heard this improvement despite a previously nearly fully optimized ethernet chain. Previous: Router (LPS)>server and NAS (both LPS)>optical conversion-two TPLink FMC (both LPS)>Sotm SMS200neo (Uptone JS2 LPS)>Uptone USB Regen(LPS)>dac. Post: Router>RenoLabs switch>server and NAS, everything after same as before.
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Speaking of network switches, @david_ten is spot on!
“Think of it as a serious isolation step between a typically noisy router and your Antipodes. If configured, you can also separate your noisy/dirty components from your audio focused ones.”
I brought in M12 Switch recently, while I am still evaluating this ‘revolutionary’ product, my initial impressions are nothing short of amazement. It has elevated my streaming system to whole another level. Nope, I am not exaggerating :-)
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I recently tried a Silent Angel Bonn 8 network switch with LPS (£600).
It has made a much more significant SQ improvement than i was expecting. Similar to the level obtained from an upgrade in a high quality power conditioner or regenerator.
After several hours of listening i switched on the projector (fed by a sky box linked to the Bonn N8) and the images were much sharper and blacks so much darker; it's a cliche i know, but i really did have to reset the the picture controls.
There is a review of this switch on "audio science review" where the test results conclude that there can be no improvement. This is followed by several pages of presumably well qualified people laughing at audiophiles who fall for these scams.
Their certainty is impressive.
it's an interesting irony that we all share a interest in the technical side of this hobby with the aim of getting better SQ and yet many highly qualified people will have poorer sounding systems because they simply will not try a product (at no financial risk).
a scientifically minded person should surely see the very large data set of people who independently report positive reviews and wonder, how likely is it that they are all lies and expectation bias?
Perhaps it is a fear that it might contradict what they (don't!) know? |
@glory An [unmanaged] switch between your (main) router and networked components is plug and play. A better / higher quality switch will result in better sound quality. Upsides can (also) be achieved from powering a switch with a linear power supply, including the mass market ones. Think of it as a serious isolation step between a typically noisy router and your Antipodes. If configured, you can also separate your noisy/dirty components from your audio focused ones. Given your comfort level with $$$ fuses, I’m surprised by this: : ) Does one have to pay that much $$$ for this gizmo? Copying this for those unfamiliar with unmanaged vs. managed switches: https://www.fieldengineer.com/blogs/network-switch-managed-vs-unmanaged |
I will contact Antipodes and repost back. |
I would read the FAQ's and or setup on Small Green Computer or Lumin Web site (or any of the well respected music server / streamer companies) I think you will arrive at the right conclusion. |
I am old and lost when it comes to this switch stuff. Ted, at SR, spoke to me about how incredible it is in his reference system going bonkers over it.
I have my router connected to my Antipodes EXCX. |
Do you HAVE to buy a Switch? |
$2300 for the SR switch. Does one have to pay that much $$$ for this gizmo?
In less than a year SR will come out with a SEMK2 for $2K more $$$.
What switch to buy?
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Hi @sns --- yes, that was me on that Whatsbest Forum thread. I did not start that thread, but it was enough to draw my interest on Ediscreation switch. I am still happy with my units (I have two), and my search on that space is now over (for now).
Many (higher priced) manufacturers are now joining the ethernet switch category, including Innuos, and most recently, Synergistic Research. It shows the popularity among audio enthusiasts on such products. They do work IMO |
I just came across this thread, interesting, but sort of old, perhaps it can revived. I've been thinking about adding network switch for some time now, already have post server taken care of with FMCs and usb decrapifiers. Up to now, I've fed server and NAS with router powered by lps. Finally decide to pull the plug on purchasing audiophile network switch yesterday. During my research over the past few weeks I narrowed down choices to English8, N&E Silent Switch (aka as Ediscreation) standard and deluxe versions, Uptone Etheregen and RenoLabs Ultimate. I took a chance and purchased RenoLabs Ultimate, the risk because I've not found a single review. Should get 7-10 days.
Also, I found a review by thyname of the N&E switch over at whatsbest forum, assume this is the very same thyname in this thread. David_Ten, may be worthwhile to pm him for review either on this thread or start a new one. He found it superior to Uptone etheregen.
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Hey @mitch2 good luck getting an affirmative answer from this guy. They never try anything. They just know. And if you do get an answer, it will be something like “I don’t have to go go North Pole to know it’s cold out there”. Or something like that. A stupid sophism |
@rilbr "Here we go again. I just saw 50 to 60 posts from people who have not tried one of the switches in question.
This just confuses people who come here to find out results." Seems to me this thread has stayed pretty much on task as it is about Network Switches. Three were suggested by the OP and he asked us to "
Feel free to add others." Which of the three have you tried and how did it (they) work out for you? |
Just going to update my network switch experience from my "post industrial" units!
One of the issues I had with my industrial setup was just that, it was industrial and looked it, meant to be locked away in cabinets and mounted on DIN rail and all hardwired, looks like crap out in the open.
So I acquired a D-Link non managed switch powered by a 5v switch mode walwart, looked better but the sq was a little duller imho.
Moved to a Welbourne 5v LPS with aftermarket PC (cannot find a brand name on that?) and oh yes, MUCH better than even the industrial setup.
Running a short 0.75m cat 7 cable from switch to Metrum Onyx DAC and running Roon core upstairs on a seperate Dell laptop which is also connected to main router by a 0.75m cat 7 cable.
The downstairs D-Link switch is connected to main router by a 75ft cat 7 cable.
These are just generic ebay sourced cables, no fancy brands.
Now the setup looks the part( basically hidden behind my TV) and sounds excellent imho.
Well worth the approx $300 cost. |
Here we go again. I just saw 50 to 60 posts from people who have not tried one of the switches in question.
This just confuses people who come here to find out results.
50 to about 5 who did post some results, even if they were offering a link to someone who did. Thank you to those 5 out of 50! |
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I have the exact same set up including the router on the sending end.
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The one thing that I have done to improve my 4 yr old (out of warranty )Aqvox switches and TP-Link FMC,s was open them up and install thin rubber on both top & bottom of the frames. This is what Aqvox does on there SE version to increase a blacker background and I also drilled holes in the bottom of the frames to attach 3 Alto_Extreame Lyd1 footers. The improvement I'm hearing I believe is a reduction in jitter.
I have the switch, fmc and W4S LPS sitting on a Symposium Segue shelf feeding my server & dac.
Another improvement I read about is that the switch should be feeding both the server and dac, with port 8 feeding the dac, fmc into port 1, port 4 feeding server, port 2 source ground into grounding box. This gave me better sound then the dac being feed from the server direct and I believe because the Aqvox switch re-clocks the signal but that's just a guess. |
Just came across this Network Switch. English Electric Ethernet Switch: https://englishelectric.uk/US$595 List. Affiliate of Chord Cable. |
I have been obsessed with this issue and have tried all kinds of network switches and streamers....I could write a book. Here’s what I have been using with awesome results. Central Panel on Dedicated Circuit: - AT&T Fiber Modem
- Ubiquiti UDM
- Ubiquiti Switch 8-150w
Listening Room on Separate Dedicated Circuit: - Ubiquiti Switch Flex Mini Powered by POE from Switch 8-150w
- Sonos Port with Factory Power Supply (Furman Power)
- Bluesound Node 2i with Factory Power Cord (Furman Power)
- Linn Klimax DSM with Factory Power Core (Furman Power)
- Apple Mac Mini (2020) with Factory Power Core (Furman Power)
Interconnects & Cables: - iFi SPDIF iPurifier with the iFi Power Supply (Furman Power)
- Lifatec Glass Optical Toslink
- Custom Cardas Analog & Digital Interconnects (WBT Connectors)
- Custom Cardas Speaker Cables (WBT Connectors)
- Custom Power Cables (WBT Connectors)
- Custom CAT6 Ethernet Cables (Platinum Connectors)
Amplifiers & Speakers: - Luxman NeoClassico II CD-N150/SQ-N150 with Klipsch Forte III
- Nagra Classic INT/DAC with Franco Serblin Accordo
- 47 Labs Shigaraki DAC/AMP with Lens
- Mytek Brooklyn DAC+/AMP with Harbeth P3ESR
My favorite combination: Sonos Port (WiFi) - iFi SPDIF iPurifier - Custom Digital Interconnect & Power - Nagra Classic DAC/INT - Harbeth P3ESR I also got great sound from the Mac Mini (Apple Music/ALAC) using USB. The Franco Serblin Accordo speakers also sounded wonderful, depending on my mood. They are just different speakers. What has really surprised me is how good the Sonos Port sounds with the iFi SPDIF iPuifier. I was not expecting the Sonos and iFi to sound so good. I prefer it over my Linn DSM and the Bluesound Node 2i. I know that I’m limited to 16/44, but that’s what my CDs and Apple Lossless files are, so I don’t feel like I’m missing anything. I’m aware this goes against a lot of “audiophile” thinking and that using a Sonos Port with Nagra/Harbeth might sound silly, but after MONTHS of listening, this is what I came to. I also tried (and have though the years) lots of different cables, but I just make my own with excellent results. Please note that I use the Sonos Port in WiFi mode, which works flawlessly. Does WiFi sound better than wired Ethernet? No. Again, after MONTHS of listening, I can’t tell a difference. I tried most of the “audiophile” switches listed in this thread, and some of them (maybe) had a subtle improvement, but the iFi always sounded the best no matter what switch I used, and it really made the Sonos Port shine. What I learned is that power supplies and galvanic isolation make a difference. It’s not only about bits/data, but the power/current in the signal. I think that’s what several people in this thread kept stating. Power, especially in digital, makes a difference. I don’t think we have to spend a lot of money on switches and cables, but making sure they are powered and terminated properly goes a long way. Now....I’ll duck and dive to avoid the sticks and stones heading in my direction. Be easy, I’m just a music listener that spends too much time playing with audio. Thanks for reading! |
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Thank you all for a very interesting thread. I'm working with a 1Gb wired network that connects:
> Commercial server running Win10 hosting 5Tb of shared media files
available to all the devices on the network
> 1080 TV and media player A fed by network
> 1080 TV and media player B fed by network
> 4k TV home theater setup with media player etc fed by network
> a small system running a BlueSound Node 2i fed by network
> a large system with DAC fed by another Node 2i (fed from network) and s/pdif directly from the server sound card (not ethernet, no USB)
No WiFi, no BlueTooth. All this entails a couple switches (commercial Cisco unit, can't recall what exactly, and another switch on the HT).
Recently I've been playing with hard-to-verfy and possibly faith-based tweaks that may have some impact but aren't very expensive - speaker elevators, fancier (but not crazy expensive) power cords, replacing digital RCA connectors with BNC's, etc. All this has convinced me to ignore the network switches. Now on to the next tweak.....
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If I were inclined to spend $500 on an Ethernet cable, I would probably put it last in the chain, either from the second TP-LINK to my DX server or between the server and Roon endpoint, but I am certainly not going to purchase 3 or 4, $500 Ethernet cables!
If I would want to experiment with just one Ethernet cable, I would start with a (hopefully) short run to your Roon Endpoint |
Thanks for the advice but looking at the Ethernet cable offerings reminds me of the early days of USB cables. Some reviewers report "significant improvements" while others say the differences are small. HiFi Wigwam states that simply switching to generic CAT 8 cables would be an audible improvement. Then, as with all things audio, there seems to be a progression of sorts where certain cables start out as a great "bang for the buck" but are soon eclipsed by newer offerings, such as the $50 Supra CAT 8 cable that Audio Bacon liked early on but later replaced with the latest cable du jour, the $500 SOtM dCBL-CAT7 Audiophile Ethernet Cable, which apparently can be bettered by JCAT’s $1,100 Ethernet Cable. The Supra is priced right but from what I could find while it apparently sounds "nice," improves on off-the-shelf cables (OTSC), and has good tonal qualities, in comparison to others it may be a bit soft and less focused.
I am considering moving the two TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converters and Fiber Patch Cable to the server side of (i.e., after) the Bonn switch to hopefully reduce any noise coming from the switch.
Michael Lavorgna at AudioStream didn't set his up that way because he needed to run multiple cables from his switch. If I move the fiber set-up, then I would only have one Ethernet cable between the second TP-LINK converter and my server, although I would have another between the server and my Roon endpoint (...ugh, where does it stop?). If I were inclined to spend $500 on an Ethernet cable, I would probably put it last in the chain, either from the second TP-LINK to my DX server or between the server and Roon endpoint, but I am certainly not going to purchase 3 or 4, $500 Ethernet cables!
I found this (linked below) review interesting in that they compared several Ethernet cables (but not the SOtM) in a blind testing and came away with this;
At the end we settled on a random A-B-X blind test methodology and submit all the cables that we had to extensive comparison. Not knowing which cable we were auditioning (the test pattern looked like A-B-A-A-A-B, for example), step by step some nuances in how the cables performed started to appear. When I say nuances I mean perhaps 1%, perhaps 5% of difference between the Ethernet cables that we used. Nothing to really write home about. Most cables performed about the same, there were only two that stood out. The Supra was audibly softer and more muffled than others, keeping similar signature that was heard in the HS-Link application. The OTSC became the winner of the test – it was the preferred cable even in the direct shootout with the AudioQuest, no matter how technically inferior it may be. ConclusionAlthough it may not be exactly what you want to hear, for the router/streamer connection please feel free to use any RJ-45 cable that is on hand. If you want to feel unique then invest a bit more into a product like Viablue, or dress a standard patch cable in a colourful jacket or shrinkwrap of your choice. What is puzzling is that in theory there should be zero difference between the cables and still there was some.
http://www.audiodrom.net/en/special-edition-reviews/104-ethernet-rj-45-cables-shootout
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I 3rd it! Thanks for the update. The Cat 7 Ethernet cables I purchased from SOtM really upgraded the sound of my system. They do matter! |
I second the recommendation on Ethernet cables between these two components,
>Silent Angel - Bonn N8 Audio Grade Network Switch
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (3 feet) ⬅️
>Antipodes DX3 Server
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (3 feet) ⬅️
>Metrum Ambre Roon endpoint
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@mitch2 Thanks for the updates on your adventures and congratulations on the results.
If you are open to this, I encourage you to try different LAN cables...the last three, 3ft links in your chain.
Depending on the cables used, you may be surprised by the uptick in performance.
Audio Bacon has a list of LAN cables and their characteristics and contributions. |
Ok, I gave this stuff a try so here is my digital set-up running Tidal and stored files (I plan to give Qobuz a try in January after I receive my new amps). Adding the switch and the optical
isolation seems to have resulted in a slightly smoother, quieter presentation - a bit more pleasant to listen to over longer periods of time.
Current digital set-up;
Orbi router
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (35 feet)
>TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converter
>Tripp Lite Duplex Multimode 62.5/125 Fiber Patch Cable (SC/SC), 1M
>TP-LINK MC200CM Gigabit Media Converter
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (3 feet)
>Silent Angel - Bonn N8 Audio Grade Network Switch
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (3 feet)
>Antipodes DX3 Server
>Cat 6 Ethernet cable (3 feet)
>Metrum Ambre Roon endpoint
>I2S cable
>Metrum Adagio DAC |
So, in the spirit of trying new things, in a couple of days I will have the same optical isolation set-up that Michael Lavorgna discussed in his article titled, "Electrically Isolate Your Networked Audio" A little more expensive than at the time of the article but still relatively cheap in the audio world. Have any of you tried this...... https://www.audiostream.com/content/electrically-isolate-your-networked-audio |
There is a long EtherRegen thread running at that site for months. Way before its release. If you had read that thread you would know 100% what the inevitable review was going to say. This, at least 90% of the regular member contributors to that thread had already declared the switch phoney before anyone had even heard a single note! They preach about expectation bias delivering psycho acoustic placebo effects but ignore that Amir has emotionally and professionally placed his cards and reputation well and truley on the table before he even received the switch. It's the same in tweak threads , many experts cannot think or even bear to think outside the box. |
@three....This is not that confusing is it? Some things cannot be measured to determine if you will like it or prefer it to another piece of gear. You just have to listen. Some things can be measured. We are saying read, measure and listen to decide for yourself. Only you can make this decision. Only using measurements is a ditch. Trusting another’s ears only is a ditch. Avoid ditches and have fun looking! |
three_easy_payments719 posts12-17-2019 5:29pm.. this just isn't a product for me to look into further, at least not at this time.
And that's of course perfectly fine |
So this is where the conversation apparently ends - it's impossible to measure the benefits, so either you believe benefits exist and criticize someone who measures no change as a non-careful listener or you believe they make no difference due to lack of measurement proof. How unsatisfying. I'm happy for anyone who enjoys the product and perceives a benefit but this just isn't a product for me to look into further, at least not at this time. |
uberwaltz8,731 posts12-17-2019 5:01pmFor all I know, that review was "written" a year ago, when the EtherRegen was announced Not really sure what that is supposed to mean or what you maybe implying?
There is a long EtherRegen thread running at that site for months. Way before its release. If you had read that thread you would know 100% what the inevitable review was going to say. |
For all I know, that review was "written" a year ago, when the EtherRegen was announced
Not really sure what that is supposed to mean or what you maybe implying? |
uberwaltz
I was interested to see other members reactions to that review in particular though and if it had a any influence on your purchase or not of the Upton Audio product?
None whatsoever. For all I know, that review was "written" a year ago, when the EtherRegen was announced |
He never hears a difference and is predisposed to find such an outcome. He is not, and does not care to be, a careful listener passionate about sonic nuance. Realism, natural tonality and the like elude his sensibilities and gifting. He is a tech guy not connected to these other realities. Just understand that when reading his comments A nice example of expectation bias hiding behind an agenda. It's like claiming a moral high ground from which to preach down to. All the best, Nonoise |
I have to admit from the odd times I have perused that audioscience site they do appear to be overly obsessed with measurements with the conclusion being if they could not measure a difference then there simply cannot be a difference.
Which I think the vast majority here know to be untrue.
I was interested to see other members reactions to that review in particular though and if it had a any influence on your purchase or not of the Upton Audio product?
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He never hears a difference and is predisposed to find such an outcome. He is not, and does not care to be, a careful listener passionate about sonic nuance. Realism, natural tonality and the like elude his sensibilities and gifting. He is a tech guy not connected to these other realities. Just understand that when reading his comments. |
The man who did the measuring also did a listening test, said he found it didn't sound any different than his regular switch, said it might be worth $100 but not $680. |
Measurements play an important role as does good building techniques, layout, design, parts quality and synergistic pairing of parts. However, listening and fine tuning based on actual sound is also very important. It all matters. That’s why I have to laugh at that one note song site. |
