Network optimization for serious streamers

@jerryg123 lol, is that what you call it when John Swenson was called out for making up terms to fool people? Sure. 
 

my limited experience with sound engineers, and electrical engineers, is that they don’t believe in snake oil. Why? Simply because the physics doesn’t support the claims made by the likes of John Swenson of UpTone. Add to that made up terms like “high impedance current leakage”, which is just a bunch of words that means nothing. Currents do not have impedance, high or otherwise. 

WTF?

Freddie will never venture over to WBF with so many Manufacturers and actual Engineers there they will blast him right out of there. 

I am just a lowly MSME and barley passed my circuits and hydrodynamic requirements, so I look to folks at my company (EE's and IT Engineers) places like WBF for guidance. 

With the way my digital FE sounds I will listen to them before @fredrik222 for sure.... 

Keep calm, stay snake oil.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Ask yourself, which are you? I prefer to remain skeptical, but keep an open mind, accepting that there are some things we cannot explain.

Years ago, I would have bet everything I own that cables (beyond a certain level of base competency) could make no difference. I’ve proven to myself many times over that this was wrong. I cannot explain the "why" of it. Nobody can definitively explain (prove) it either. I’ve accepted this. A bit of a shock to my world view.

So, deniers and skeptics enter here, to be expected. I can only say,everyone needs to  experience  sound quality different network optimizations bring to the table. I'm no network expert,  only collated knowledge and experience from other individuals who've found these techniques/equipment to be of positive benefit,  I experienced that same positive benefit.

The so called 'experts' don't all agree on what network optimizations work or don't work, so don't let a few naysayers affect you're willingness to experiment. Everyone should do their own due diligence, plenty of info out there on Audiostyle and whatsbest forums if one needs 'expert' advice. LISTENING is also part of that due diligence! Man, if I believed what naysayers spoke I'd still be listening with all generic cabling, no AC mods, only stock footers, components on carpet or bricks or whatever, streaming direct off general purpose computer, and blah, blah, blah. 

Someone really needs to offer audiophiles double blind test with exact same lineup of major equipment, one modded and tuned, other with no optimization.  Which system wins this shootout? All I know is that I've benefit tested much equipment/variables over the years, new variable goes in and out, try to test one variable at a time. Benefit of new variables is either positive, negative or just different.

To write off experiential learning as victim of delusion, expectation bias, in other words, faulty because human senses are faulty is truly sad. Carrying that attitude or baggage seems counter to enjoyment. Personally, I don't give a damn that I'm judged, guess I"m one happy delusional audiophile.  I also own plenty of material items that many could find fault with, ie. not objectively best in that particular category, guess I shouldn't be enjoying them. One can either think for themselves, read trusting in their own sense of enjoyment, or they can choose to rely on other's seal of approval before enjoyment allowed.

Please ignore all negativity. Positivity requires thought and consideration, an elevated state.

Freddie of Fricso who works for Cisco, loves to disco and is all knowing about audio and Ethernet.

@thyname is right open and free flowing discussions are now officially over as Freddie is here and the thread is dead.

See you all later.

@thyname  yes! Facts are not for the faint of heart! 

I too would like some clarification on jitter and latency. SNS seems to speak in generalities at times instead of clearly stating the basis of his findings. I am just trying to keep this wonderful thread civil and prospering. SNS also speaks of RFI contamination through ethernet ports. I won't begin to count the ports being used in my network on both ends of each cable. What could possibly be done about it? Clarification please! 

I have a TP-link wireless access point coming next week. I shall report back.

I reached out to Underwood HiFi, a Melco dealer, about the C100 ethernet cable. He had never heard of it. He is checking with Melco for me as to availability and price in the USA. I found it on Ebay as an import from Europe. These dealers, including Underwood, will not entertain selling it to me with a return option, which is a probable deal breaker.

I am interested in pursuing this cable as a way to break the ground noise as the signal goes into my Sonore ultraRenu or maybe before the FO filter. This will be a good opportunity to retest the effectiveness of my FO filter. The last time I removed it the signal was degraded and back it went.

Right now, before any of these upgrade experiments, I am delighted with the sound that I am getting from my network. However, when I listen critically, which I do not find entertaining, I can imagine a little veil or puffiness that could potentially be removed. This is what I experienced when I installed the Pangea Audio Premier XL MKII USB Cable. Let me reiterate. If you are using the USB input into your DAC, and your DAC needs the 5v signal, then this is the only game in town that I know of that will prevent noise contamination. The difference is not subtle. Does anyone know another solution?

Keep the positive contributions coming boys. It would be a crying shame to have this thread deleted.

Everyone: abort abort abort! Abandon this thread. Freddy has found it. He will not stop and will be spewing his venom and Hatred towards anything digital until every one stops contributing.

@sns 

do elaborate on this comment, please, especially the last part and how that matters for streaming.

If jitter didn't exist on networks,it wouldn't be detectable by measuring devices. The question is at what level is jitter heard, some may theorize there is a certain level.

 

Jitter is extremely important for precision manufacturing with computers,  for various measurement devices where precision needed, gaming, and music streaming it seems. Manufacturing and measuring industries are leading on addressing jitter and latency over networks. Music streaming way behind in concern for this, many assume any old network fine as long as no drop outs.

@sns there is a lot everywhere on the Internet, but I did find a thread on audiophile style where John Swenson of UpTone was absolutely destroyed for making up terms to make his products sounds like they actually do something. So that was fun, and actually accurate. Unlike most posts here and elsewhere. 

Go over to audiophilestyle and whatsbest forums and you'll find streamers taking far more extensive measures to minimize noise, jitter. Some of these streamers have best of best setups, including Taiko Extremes, Wadax, not to mention their extreme high end  non streaming portions. These are valid experiences vs those with NO experience with network optimizations.
 

 

I’ve not heard a good result from fibre yet. The conversion from photons to electrons is very critical and can itself cause noise. Different Fibre SFP modules from different manufacturers sound different. In theory they should all sound the same if fibre eliminated these issues.

I am just wary of these fibre converters because I remember back in the day Optical was supposedly superior to spdif because of its electrical isolation. Yet I never heard an optical output sounding better than a spdif, and the difference widened and magnified when quality digital cabling was used.

I can imagine the power supply for the fibre conversion boxes play a huge part, you probably need a good LPS to get the performance, 2x of them, and then power cables on top of that. After that outlay I think its better to just invest in a higher end switch.

It is absolutely amazing how much time people can put into a subject and come out on the other knowing less than when they started. Keep calm, stay snake oil.

@richtruss except, it is not a real thing in home applications. So there is that. 

@agisthos You are spot on. It’s the noise introduced into the ground plane of equipment by Power supplies and Ethernet cables that then gets passed down the line that is the problem.

I’ve not heard a good result from fibre yet. The conversion from photons to electrons is very critical and can itself cause noise. Different Fibre SFP modules from different manufacturers sound different. In theory they should all sound the same if fibre eliminated these issues.

@soix You have to be on a PC and log into the admin console of the modem/router by typing its IP address into your web browser.

Default IP address will vary by manufacturer, but for TP-Link its often...

192.168.1.1 or 192.168.1.100

Then you will need the username/password which are often admin/admin or its printed on the sticker underside of the device.
Once in the admin console, find the Wireless settings and disable both 2.4ghz and 5ghz wireless. Modern devices have these two different wireless modes and they can be enabled/disabled individually.

When turning the wireless off in the modem/router there was a noticeable jump in performance.

How does one turn the wireless off on a modem/router. 
 

Apparently we’ve found our newest troll.  xaxxon is to digital as kenjit is to speakers.  Ugh. 

@SNS

Thank you- extremely useful information.

> the voltage for the 1’s and 0’s (high voltage low voltage) are analog, the interpretation is digital so noise can cause problems.

@invalid signal degredation only causes a problem if the devices are broken. and it will not be a subtle problem. If the signal isn’t broken a better signal doesn’t get you better data on the other end it’s exactly the same.

There is no room for a quality improvement between functioning equipment.

If the device is not broken then your digital signal is 100% preserved in all digital to digital transmission. If the device is broken the change in sound will not be subtle. It will be obvious and you should replace the broken hardware with functioning hardware.

@xaxxon bye bye.

But sigh, it seems there are a LOT of people here who LOVE their snake oil so I'll just leave you guys be.

@soix

Yes, I have considered mesh… and someday will probably do it. A friend of mine had all sorts of problems with mesh… I don’t want problems. But I have fiddled with different cables and the etherregen into my Aurender W20SE streamer and, in general found no difference. One of the reasons I have concluded it is mostly about the streamer.

Since my really great vinyl system and my streamer sounds the same, I am really happy to take a break from just trying stuff. Typically I reach a plateau and stay there for a number of years. I am there. I think I am correct on my thinking on streamers / vs fiddling with the incoming signal. But, I am just going to enjoy my system for now.

Maybe, I’ll try and prove my theory later. BTW, most of the time I have these partially tested theories, I am correct. Not trying to be egotistical, but having been a scientist since shorty after being born… through really being one through my twenties, and absolutely dedicated to highly ambiguous problem solving through work after grad school for forty years… I feel like I am right on this. But, I have not done all the work required to prove it.

@xaxxon  the voltage for the 1's and 0's (high voltage low voltage) are analog, the interpretation is digital so noise can cause problems.

@som Always good to go into it with reasonable/rational expectations. I'm not expecting significant improvements, however it can't hurt particularly as the U1 is currently being fed by a cheap, generic router my ISP installed several years ago.

As with many things in this hobby, it'll come down to trying it out!

Great to see the variety of network schemes working well for people, keep them coming!

Jitter induced by or passed through  networks seems to be somewhat contentious issue, some claim ping time only consideration beyond what streamers, dacs can affect.

It seems logical any shielded ethernet cable would be grounded at both ends. In any case ethernet more susceptible to  noise than optical yet optical not always favored, points to other factors involved here, I really need to experiment with the two OpticalModules with Finisar transceivers route or the optical capable router with a single OpticalModule route. The one issue is transceiver would have to be removable and compatible with the Finisar in router, no guarantee for compatibility except for the Sonore equipment, reportedly works, we'll see when I install the Finisars this week.

Back to contentious issue of jitter and network equipment. There is individual over on whatsbestforum who's measured jitter on various modems, not all the same. Jitter measurements for various optical transceivers is also published can't quite remember where, perhaps audiophilestyle, Finisar or Afterdark websites, again variable measurements.

There are some things useful and others not dependent on your setup of course. Length of ethernet is one that matters IMHO. I’ve run a fiber set up in my big monoblocks amp system and it was a nice improvement.

When I recently put in the Wiim Pro, it sounded great too. Then I tested it without the fiber cable, sounded great if not a tad better. So, I removed it and use two short ethernet cables. They are double-shielded and are doing a great job with the Wiim Pro.

Also, I replaced my cable router-modem with an inexpensive Motorola 7550 I got off eBay featuring the Broadcom chip. Have it on LPS and that helps. What helps most in the current update is the Wiim Pro which is also attached to a 5v LPS. The optical fiber is packed up.

My connection tested out great so there’s not much more to add here.

I have heard some excellent arguments for WiFi due to all the possibilities for noise introduction through Ethernet. Routers and switches are very noisy devices…so if you’re not going to obsess over audiophile Ethernet cable, switches, and routers…WiFi could be a great option…obviously you need a strong signal for this to work. 
 

I also encourage people to have someone else switch between WiFi and Ethernet while you are blindfolded…this can be eye opening 😉

@christianb5s4 I just hooked my LHY-SW8 this morning. So far it hasn’t changed the sound at all but I’ve been told that it can take a few hundred hours of burn in for the ocxo to sound its best. One thing I can say is that this little switch is built like a tank

xaxxon

I don't need to be open minded, I understand how it works.

That would actually be rather amusing if it weren't so sad.

i go the grandmother route and order those bits and bytes to straighten up and fly right

Thank you for coming here to set us ignorant Aphiles straight.  Thank you! 

so I'll just leave you guys be.

Fantastic decision! Thank you

@grannyring I don't need to be open minded, I understand how it works.

But sigh, it seems there are a LOT of people here who LOVE their snake oil so I'll just leave you guys be.

nosualc commented that they didn't see why jitter would be a problem if the streamer is buffering. I would agree IF the DAC is inside the streamer and using the internal I2S bus. If you are using a separate DAC, particularly with AES/SPDIF, then jitter can again arise between the two boxes.

@sns 

Thanks for the sharing all of the information you have accumulated.  My system is digital only and I will be taking your advice.  Fortunately while my music room was torn apart down to the studs and being rewired I ran coax cable as well as ethernet.

So, after I digest your post several more times, I'll be moving in that direction.

Regards,

barts

@agisthos  Exciting thread. Thanks for jumping in first to try this. I shall be doing this soon.

Great CAT8 and I only have Wi-Fi for computing purposes. Separate network for Audio, All Supra Cat8 through my home with additional RFI/EMI protective loom.

Supra Network Ethernet Cable (madisoundspeakerstore.com)

Ok I got a TP-Link wireless access point today. My setup is a Lindemann Limetree Bridge II streamer - spdif out into Teddy Pardo DAC (with alps blue velvet volume control option).

When turning the wireless off in the modem/router there was a noticeable jump in performance. Previously when just using the normal modem/router, hard wired ethernet into the Lindemann was better but it was subtle- I could live with the wireless connection and not have a 30 foot cable snaking down my hallway (in-wall wiring is coming soon tho). But now with the wireless turned off in the modem, and a wireless access point used instead, I cannot go back.

Kudos to @sns for working this one. I must have read a hundred pages of audiophile switch investigations, with these guys spending 5-10k on switch/clock setups, and I cannot think of a single instance where any attention was paid to the upstream cable modem. Sure put an LPS on it, but that’s about it. The wireless has a bad effect.

And all this just using a standard residential TP-Link modem/router. I have a TP-Link Omada wired router (ER605) on order. Wonder if this will be better.

It is the opinion at Deer Creek Audio that the receiving streaming equipment plays the biggest role in improving the quality of the received digital music stream.

The two primary elements that can make a notable impact are the digital receiver chip and the amount of buffering that occurs in RAM before streaming on to the I2S bus.

In the case of the miniDSP SHD, the first element is the xCORE-200 digital receiver. The xCORE-200 massively over-samples all incoming digital streams and transfers them on to the I2S bus with absolute jitter free certainty. This technology prepares the bitstream for digital signal processing and digital-to-analog conversion.

When streaming from the miniDSP SHD using Volumio, Tidal, etc., the buffer depth and buffer times can be adjusted. We’ve found that generally longer is better.

Please see: https://deercreekaudio.com/tech-blog/f/how-can-something-that-costs-so-little-sound-so-great

Deer Creek Audio is an authorized miniDSP dealer

Not enough.

@sns  I did a little research :

 Cat 7 & Cat 8 require that all equipment and hardware in the system support a contiguous ground, or there will be no performance benefit to Cat 7/Cat 8 over previous standards such as Cat 6.

Using a separate modem, and router is a liability ,one less Ethernet cable and power cord, BTW I use Only LPS from my Motorola 8702, which uses Docsis3.1 

I will be upgrading to next technologies within the next year. But by using a decent LPS with uograded fuse not top but decent and a decent Pangea sig14 mk2 power cord ,Everything makes a difference , then 2 sonoreMedia converters Ethernet to fiber optic ,to a Sonore Deluxe  to a Excellent Linear Audio Technologies LPS 

which I have listened to many including Sonore,uptone and several more very well known brands by far the best sounding and 2-3x the capacitance 125k

and a huge 100 Va transformer up to 8 amps for $700 with a very respectable DC cable. Many  people refuse to spend the extra $$ of LPS , and good quality usb ,and Ethernet cables are essential $300 does not cut it  

@agisthos  Thanks, a boatload, of which I have been able to find not one product after hours of searching. Please list a couple that you have tried. Thanks.

@singingg I think its so new there is no distribution yet. Melco does have an older model cable that does the same thing. But remember this is just an entry level product.

There is now a huge number of boutique ethernet cable builders doing weird and wonderful things like this to kill noise, with prices into the stratosphere.

Underwoodhifi.com  is a Melco retailer. Give Walt a call he may be able to get you the C100 cable

@ghdprentice I agree streamer is most important component in streaming chain. But all of our audio systems are built from a chain of components, weak links are weak links, a magical amp can't repair the wounds of a lesser preamp, source, listening room, AC. In order to reach full potential of any link further downstream, all links upstream must be optimal. Streaming works in exactly same manner.

Besides, vast majority of these upgrades cost far, far less than quality streamer. Hell, I've spent more just on power supply for my streamer than all my upgrades pre streamer. It seems totally illogical to me to assume a quality streamer will somehow get back information lost in miasma of noise produced by network components, cabling upstream. I've gone back and forth on network upgrades in past, therefore, remove the upgrade in order to go back to previous setup, testing new variable, all upgrades I listed were heard as increased resolution. My new streamer added JCAT Net XE ethernet filter, clock, JCAT Femto Net and network feed direct to motherboard ethernet port not nearly as good.  This illustrates that network upgrades can still affect high end streamers. In fact I'd posit, these network upgrades will more greatly affect the highest resolving top end streamers.

There is nothing other than the network ports in any streamer that has any affect on networks. Network issues need to be addressed by network equipment. Now, if one believes networks have no affect on streaming performance this is all blathering. I'd only suggest one experience some of these upgrades before writing them off as worthless.

I've also been contemplating the impact of ISP quality itself in relation to streaming sound quality. My upgrade from 300mg to 500mg partially tested for this, required modem upgrade somewhat blunted full value of testing for this. So, was improvement I heard due to modem change, speed change or a litttle of both? I'd also make an analogy to AC delivery to our homes. Some claim we can't do anything about AC quality as 99% of the path AC takes is beyond our control, outside the house. Yet it seems AC power cords, conditioners, receptacles, fuses, blah, blah, blah make a difference, this all seems commonly accepted. How does the same not apply to our networks? I understand one may not believe in any of this, AC or network, sad, but at least consistent.

By the way, I agree with grannyring, fuses change sound quality to some extent. But then I hear differences in capacitors, resistors and other parts. I know we're both parts modders so very attuned to these things in sense we have experience listening for small changes.

Again, no attempts to sell big buck items here, I'm not advocating for audiophile network switches, although not writing them off as contributor for upgrading networks, plenty claims for their effectiveness. I'm one of those people who give benefit of doubt to those who claim benefits from all sorts of devices, whether I'm going to go out and purchase is another thing. I don't write anything off until I've tried and found it of no benefit. Even then I may just write it off as not being compatible with my particular setup. Keeping open mind in regard to all things audio has worked well for me, sure there's snake oil, and emotions may lead to hyperbole, one learns to read between the lines over time. Theoreticals are one thing, experience another, sometimes the two don't correlate. There's been any number of suggestions for upgrades on the upgrades I've suggested here, I"m totally open to them, probably try at some point.

In listening to many individuals over many years, things like upgrades, tweaks are one man's burden another man's chance to experiment. I'm in latter camp.

@agisthos You have tweaked my interest in trying the Melco C100 cable as the last cable coming out of my second FO converter into my Sonore ultraRendu. When I inserted the Pangea SE here it made the most dramatic difference. This would be the place to test the broken ground shield effectiveness.

I was unable to find one online review of this cable. Have you personally tried it?

I have been unable to find a US distributor after a morning searching. Any leads?

digital to digital transference is solved.   Gear either works 100% or is broken.

LOL!!!!

@xaxxon perhaps you would benefit from more open minded experiences with gear and tweaks. Audio is a great big world of potential, learning and possibilities.

Just about everything in here is "audiophile fear mongering"

digital to digital transference is solved.   Gear either works 100% or is broken.   There is no room for subtle quality differences.   You don't need "high quality ethernet cable" - you just need any correct cable.

There is literally no room for subtle improvments in digital to digital transfers.   There is no such thing as an "audiophile network switch" or even an audiophile usb cable.  

I ordered a LHY SW-8 the other day, so will hopefully have another opinion to add soon. It will feed a Lumin U1 with X1 PSU so it should be interesting to see the impact with a higher end streamer already in place.