@moto_man I believe I made a note in the first OP for about a $1-$2k range preamp. A friend's LS15 had a bit better soundstage and perhaps a somewhat better level of detail than my CJ Classic but it seemed like a lateral move.
Need suggestions on preamp
I’m mainly a headphone listener so when I got the chance to purchase a pair of Magnepan LRS speakers near my home town, I ran with it. I love Maggies and their midrange smoothness and live performance feel. I was able to find a used Parasound A21 for $1200 on Marketplace which was replacing my Adcom 545. I’m now running into a dilemma where I think the Adcom 545 sounded more detailed to me. I listen to a lot of instrumental music that I know well and I’m not getting the same level of detail as I’m getting with my headphone setup which is running balanced from my RME ADI-2 DAC. I’m using more expensive Audience AU-SX interconnects on those but even when running the RME direct into the amp (since it has volume control) I’m not getting the level of resolution I’m used to with my headphone setup (Hifiman HE1000 with a Serbian Audio HSA-1B amp).
I think the issue might be related to my preamp. I bought a Schiit Saga+ and despite running good NOS tubes or trying out passive mode I’m not getting the resolution I’m looking for. I’m looking for a recommendation on a preamp that costs between $1,000-$2,000 that will max out the resolution of the Parasound while keeping it’s effortless flow and naturalness in tact. Maybe the problem is the speakers and I really should have gone for the LRS+ or 1.7s? I know the room plays a huge role with Maggies but I live in a small apartment so for now I’m looking for any suggestions that can be fixed with gear. Thanks for any help!
You don’t say what your price range is, but I will throw my hat in the ring for Audio Research. I have an ARC REF 6 and coupled with a Pass 250.8 amp, it is to me a perfect combination of detail and smoothness. On the other hand, I found that for me, the ARC LS28SE was no better, or extremely marginally better, than running my MSB DAC direct to the Pass with no preamp. That says a lot for the quality of MSB’s volume control, I think. However, the REF 6 really took everything to a markedly better level. |
@jkf011 - I ended up getting an original Classic 1. The manual recommends inverting the phase so I swapped negative and positive on my speakers. This results in a more detailed sound. Did you have to do that with yours at all? Very happy with the results so far. |
@hikaru126 Nope only CJ tube preamps for like 30yrs |
@bassdude - it looks like Tom will be releasing a new model called the 'Silk' soon that will be an upgrade from the Mini GAN amp. I'm probably going to wait on that and see how those tweaks help the clarity and resolution department. |
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"By ’removing’ the jumper I’m referring to taking off the back panel and disconnecting the leads but then the tweeter wouldn’t function." I think that may be a bit too far to take it on the LRS - plus - it might make it more difficult to sell them. I’d upgrade to the LRS+ first. And... I wouldn’t mess with the internal crossover. I’d use an external crossover as he suggests. Or, get the GR Research upgrade and build it as an external crossover and leave the internal crossover in place - just disconnect it / route around it. But... again... that may be a bit too far to take it with the LRS. "The jumper is relatively easily to make, just a solid core piece of silver and bend it to shape." That’s what I used (about 1/8" gauge) - works fine and inexpensive. "It’s the fuse replacements he’s making (solid copper rod that he fills with something, not sure what material he’s using for that.)" I just bought the copper tube (about 1/4" gauge) - works fine - don’t think the filler is necessary - shouldn’t make any difference. "Do you know if the Class D website still sells the SDS-470C or if GAN amps are his new iteration? Ideally like to buy used (not so much for cost savings but because someone else burned the amp in for me lol)." You could contact him to see if he would build one for you - but - I’d just opt for the newer GAN model - about the same price. "I think the +s are probably worth the extra money (not sure how long you’ve had your pair) but I’ve heard they lose their amazing detail at first when they mellow out with burn-in." I’ve had them about a 25 hrs of use - maybe - not fully burnt in. I hope they don’t mellow out - they’re superb as is! They sound a lot like the Quad ESL 57’s, at this point - which is "about as good as it gets!"
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@bassdude - I'm currently running a Schiit Saga+ that I can switch over into passive mode. I feel like a Bryston preamp might accentuate any brightness from a Class D amp hence why I was looking for tubes. I could try the Kara from Schiit but I heard it's not much more different than my Saga, just balanced. If I were going to go passive I would try some of Khozmo's stuff or Luminos Audio Axiom II. Re to Mike: By 'removing' the jumper I'm referring to taking off the back panel and disconnecting the leads but then the tweeter wouldn't function. The jumper is relatively easily to make, just a solid core piece of silver and bend it to shape. It's the fuse replacements he's making (solid copper rod that he fills with something, not sure what material he's using for that.) I did already replace the stands with my own - I made some Oak stands that raises the speakers above 11" I linked the photo earlier in the thread. Do you know if the Class D website still sells the SDS-470C or if GAN amps are his new iteration? Ideally like to buy used (not so much for cost savings but because someone else burned the amp in for me lol). I think next steps are trying out a new amp, trying the Saga in passive mode. Upgrading the preamp to something else if I'm trending in the right direction and then doing the jumper/fuse upgrade. I was able to get in reach with someone from 11Stereo via email (the phone number doesn't seem to work anymore, not sure if they changed it). I think the +s are probably worth the extra money (not sure how long you've had your pair) but I've heard they lose their amazing detail at first when they mellow out with burn-in. Magnepan never goes into detail with what changes were made (including from the LRS to the plus) so hard to say if they're using a different driver material or foil. I do know the panels are slightly skinnier so that does affect the bass slightly but perhaps with a more focused imaging as a result? |
Here’s the amp I’ve been considering - and - the one I’d try if I were in your situation. You can get it on trial - so - it’s not a big risk. https://classdaudio.com/product/gan-fet-amplifiers/ This is the guy I bought my SDS-470C from a few years ago - and - it has been superb with my Maggies. Which is why - I’ve been reluctant to upgrade to his GAN amps - not sure it will make much improvement. You can’t beat the price - and - it gets rave reviews. I’d try it with a Schitt preamp to start... Other suggestions you might consider: Bryston or Benchmark Preamps. I’ve got an ARC 5se which I haven’t tried with the Maggies yet, but it’s expensive, as all ARC products are. It seems to provide good detail resolution. NOTE: Another option you might consider is a passive preamp, which can clear up the signal a lot. I’ve got a Creek OBH-22 passive preamp, which I got for that reason, which does just that. They function more as an attenuator / volume control. I got it to use as a remote volume control. They provide a very clean, noise-free sound, which improves the detail resolution. I haven’t tried it yet with my LRS+. There are many options at very reasonable prices $100-$500, or so - or - some that are very expensive such as Townshend. https://tmraudio.com/components/preamplifiers/creek-obh-22-passive-stereo-preamplifier-obh22-remote/ Re: Mike’s tweaks - I got a copper jumper online to remove the fuse, and a silver one to replace the crossover jumper. They make a subtle improvement. I also got one of the crossover’s he suggested - but haven’t set it up yet. I did Amazon and Google searches until I found these items, which I had to cut to fit. I’m not sure what you mean that you can’t remove the jumper - I thought all the maggie jumpers were the same (maybe I misunderstood you). As far as replacement of the crossover - I wouldn’t mess with that. If you want to remove some of the bass frequencies from the LRS, get an electronic crossover and a powered subwoofer(s) (REL T5 or T7) and route the bass from your source or preamp to the external crossover to your REL(s). RE: his suggestion of raising the LRS on stands - I'm not sure it makes a huge improvement. I got a pair - which made subtle improvements. You can achieve about the same sound from using the stock stands in the verticle position. But these tweaks will only make subtle improvements - and - I wouldn’t mess with them until I’d tried the Class D amp. And... if that didn’t make much difference - I’d likely upgrade to the LRS+, which is truly amazing - just as Mike suggests. I’ve been very pleased with just the switch to the Class D Audio amp, which made a noticeable improvement. |
@bassdude - I was thinking of that exact same thing. I started looking at Wyred4Sound amps and they seem to be up my alley. A good Class D should give me the detail I want and I was thinking of pairing that with a good tube preamplifier to round out the tonality and keep the soundstage. JC2 preamp is too rich for my blood. I’ve tried to get Mikes kit but it’s sold out. Do you recommend any replacements? I could just bypass the fuse holder but it doesn’t look like you can physically get rid of the jumper so I would need a replacement. I do plan on getting an active crossover in the future to clean up the mids so they don’t have to work so hard. |
I’ve got a variety of speakers (Harbeths 30.1 & 40.2, Linkwitz Orions, Emerald Physics 2.7, LeHave Melas, Magnestand Maggies, etc, etc) as well as a new pair of LRS+. And the LRS+ with the right setup sounds as good or better than any of those. But, the “key words” are “the right setup.” And... many reviewers say they can sound as good as most any speakers available. I also have a lot of different setups – which I have not yet tried with the LRS+ (ARC, Hegel, Parasound JC-1’s, etc.). To this point I’ve driven them with a Parasound JC-2 Preamp and A21 amp with a Bryston BDP2 and BDA 3. The LRS+ can have all the dynamics and detail resolution you can want coupled with phenomenal mids, soundstage and imaging, which rivals or exceeds the other speakers I have. But... I think my Class D Audio SDS470C amp (300 watts / channel into 8 ohms - only $700 new) has provided better detail resolution and dynamics than the A21, while matching or exceeding the other aspects of the sound – which is truly phenomenal. Those who haven’t really experienced the LRS+ with the right setup really haven’t heard that speaker. But, it can rival or better most any other speaker out there with the right setup in a medium sized room. If you doubt me – just review any of the video reviews by OCD Audio Guy on YouTube (among others). I can’t speak for the LRS, but I suspect it can sound very similar to the LRS+. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2zysKBl22A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLdlZ5bJXIY&t=466s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLQSYKIItDY So... you might try to find a used JC-2 preamp, and a Class D Audio amp (which are “giant killers”), as well as listen to OCD Audio Guy’s suggested tweaks to the LRS / LRS+. And the Bryston digital equipment likely also contributes to the detail resolution - which I suspect several other players / DAC's can provide. |
I think a CJ is a great option and should match well with the rest of your components. I've had 2 preamps in the last 25yrs, both CJs. I've upgraded the internals of my PV10AL but that's it. I would have to spend a ridiculous amount of money to get any better sound. I wouldn't recommend "upgrading" fuses as there's no real evidence it makes any sound difference. And don't change the Amperage! Big no no according to Magnepan. |
@skiznfliz - thanks for your honest impressions. Unfortunately if I went with speakers that catered to my favorite genre it would be some cheap Elacs or something because I like a lot of poorly recorded Rap haha. I have a lot of musical tastes though from old country to instrumental music and most speakers aren’t great with everything. Ideally, my V1 Headphones are unique in that they are warm (no weird peaks like the Aryas or HEK SE) but spacious and detailed so instrument separation, soundstage, and micro detail are all preserved. I haven’t been able to find speakers at my price point (of about $1500) that have all 3 (wide disappearing soundstage, micro detail and organic warmth). That’s why I have a specific set of albums like you do that caters to the Maggie’s strengths which has 2 out of the 3 things I like (midrange tonality and/or warmth and soundstage). Adding the CJ preamp would accentuate those traits at the expense of even more detail. Maybe I’m being unrealistic with my expectations attempting to put together a system with those price points in mind (especially compared to headphones). Ideally, I would like to spend about $1k on each component including cables. |
@hikaru126 1. You’ll have just about swapped out every piece of equipment you have thinking each swap will get you closer to your desired sound. 2. You’ll be Listening to music that sounds great on the Maggi’s but not your favorite…The good thing with this is it will open you to music genres you may have written off in the past. 3. You’ll have learnt the ropes of Ebay, US Audio Mart, Audiogone, PayPal, etc. because of all the online postings of your system you’ve been trying to unload all because you tried to make things work that don’t add up. 4. Possibility of you not enjoying your system because the sound coming out is frustrating being all the time, money and effort you put into it causing you to not want to listen to your rig as much as you’d want to. I’m not trying to preach, just did the Maggi Route,Yes they can be great speakers with the right music and a lot of effort, heck even in one of the prior posts a guy mentions took 3 years to get em to sound right. Everyone who came to my place thought they sounded great, that’s because I knew what to demo on them, but when it came time to my critical listening, I cringed more than I wanted. I went thru several PreAmps, (Parasound P5 & P6, Rogue RP-1, Tubes For HiFi SP-13, Odyssey Candella), Several Amps (Chi-Fi EL34’s, Carver 275, Adcom 565, Odyssey Stereo Khartago, Odyssey Kismet Extreme Monoblocks). Did the Interconnect & Power Cable Upgrades (Cardas, Wire World, Gronberg), Added GIK Room absorption panels & Bass Traps…So believe me when I say you’re on a up hill battle.
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That’s not a good idea if you’re looking for the level of detail your headphones produce. The Monitor Audio speakers aren’t bright per se — like your headphones they’re neutral and detailed and not bright (which is precisely why I recommended them) unless you pair them with bright/shrill electronics. The CJ preamp will squelch the exact detail you’re craving, and paired with the already warm-sounding Parasound is just going further in the wrong direction IMHO. The simplest thing would be to sell the Parasound and buy something like a Hegel integrated. You bought the wrong amp for the sound profile you’re looking for, so better to just accept that and move on than just make more mistakes around it and make things worse. I’m not familiar with your Maggies, but if they’re not capable of producing the level of detail you’re looking for with more neutral electronics than they should go too otherwise you’ll just never achieve what you’re looking for and never be completely happy. |
I did actually build my own risers out of Oak and had a guy weld me up my design out of 1/4” steel. I have noticed a bit of an improvement by putting in a new power cord for my amp (PS Audio AC-12). I plan on upgrading fuses next. The imaging has gotten a lot sharper. |
The Magnepan LRSs are, for all I tents and purposes, UNIVERSALLY reviewed as great speakers, especially for the money. The ONLY negative review came from a review based on measurements only lol. If one is rating speakers on based on a bunch of tables and squiggly lines you are absolutely doing it wrong. The only consistent minor negatives were power requirements - and I think you amp has that covered with your amp - and placement sensitivity. It took me about 3 yrs to get my placement right, especially after adding Magna Risers to my 1.7is. Wow , major improvement on what I thought were already superb speakers. I suspect what you are missing might be satisfied by some Magna Risers for the LRSs (several models to choose from: https://magnarisers.com/our-products.html). Mine are literally perfect for me now. And, as Maggies get on the "Best" lists of most audiophile magazines year in and year out against MUCH more expensive kit, upgrading would be an exercise in futility - except for bigger Maggies lol. |
@lanx0003 - I don’t like NOS or R2R DACS or Preamps especially for detail. I’ve tried adjusting the filters on my DAC as well as I’ve had the Sonnet Morpheus DAC before and didn’t really care for it. You exchange all micro detail for tonality. When I switched from that DAC to a Schiit Yggdrasil I couldn’t believe how much detail I was leaving on the table. It really felt like a veil was over the music. I think at this point I have to accept the limitations of these speakers and go ahead with their strengths. I’m thinking of getting a Conrad Johnson preamp and calling it a day. At least that preamp should grow with me if I decide to go with some other posters suggestions of going with the brighter Monitor Audio. |
If the Korg B1 in the Link can be purchased as a fully assembled model, there is a lot to be had for such little monies. I know from experiences had, when used in certain systems, the Pre Amp really makes a very good account of itself. As a result of attending comparison demo's, I witnessed the Owner of a System costing more than £40K settle for the Korg B1 over a £4K Pre - Amp when they had about £15K of Pre Amps being A/B trialed on their system. The Korg B1 took pride of place in that system for quite a few years, it was even more impressive when the Khozmo VC was added and has only very recently been co-joined by another Pre-Amp. The owner of this system now is of the view they have all the Pre Amp they need, with the Two Pre's available. Not too bad a outcome when both are costing well under £1K. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/pass-b1-korg-assembled-50.415820/ |
You’ve gotten lots of suggestions and face the typical conundrum of lots of different answers. I understand why you like the imaging of the LRS. I also understand why you like ATC speakers and their precision, clarity and speed. What has always worked for me is bringing gear home and trying it in my room. Each of us have different listening rooms and musical preferences so our suggestions may not closely match what you’re seeking. Find some dealers that will let you bring gear home, whether electronics or speakers and see how they work for you. Many online dealers of both new and used equipment will let you return gear. The Music Room sells both new and used, as one example. I hope you find what you’re seeking. |
Fantastic preamps and Arek is fantastic to work with. https://www.facebook.com/khozmoacoustic?mibextid=LQQJ4d
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a used Cary SLP-98P should fit your budget, and it’s one of the great values in Audiophilia. If the Parasound is running out of juice look for a used Sanders ESL amp, best amps I’ve ever heard with Maggies, and the used older versions will be fairly comparable in price with your Parasound. Just MUCH more powerful, amps are build for Maggies. |
If you like the coherent soundstage of the Maggies, consider a used pair of ProAc 1SCs or Tablettes, or larger ones if your room will accommodate. It's odd to me that people around here rarely mention them, but years ago I replaced my small Maggies with ProAc Response 2's and I've never looked back. They have the same seamless presentation and "disappearing act" but better bass and MUCH easier to drive, which opens up a whole different range of amplifiers in the 20-40 watt range. A truly "classic" speaker like the LS3/5 and the Maggies, but more satisfying. Beautiful vocals and solo instruments, and capable of full-scale classical as well. |
I just sold my LRS+ that I loved in my small office. I lost the office to my kid's new bedroom. I used the Benchmark HPA4 preamp with it. It is the quietest preamp you can find and lets you hear the rest of your gear. I used to own the Parasound A21+ and it was great with the HPA4.With my LRS+ I used a CODA #16 and a Sanders Magtech amp with the HPA4. The weakest link in all of this was the LRS+, which is a steal for the price. I also suggest a sub-woofer with the LRS+ and a preamp that can support a sub. I used the KEF KC62 sub.
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Check out my system … Everything is listed… |
@g2the2nd - I plan on getting a Sublime 531. I plan on setting a -24db slope for 50hz. I want to pair it with dual Rel T Zeroes. I know also upgrading the crossover with better components should improve clarity. @saboros - I’m kind of the same point. I think the Mark II has more power but the 545 was so good. Detailed and only when driven hard does it sound harsh and Maggie’s are meant to be driven hard. I guess stuff like Monitor Audio would have been more detailed but I would have had to spend 2 or 3x more to get the naturalness and soundstage these guys have. @skiznfliz - I’ve heard Martin Logan Tweeters and those are exceptionally detailed but I find they get fatiguing after a while even with a McIntosh front end but maybe if I paired it with some like a Conrad Johnson it would be worth looking at again. I’ve heard the Philharmonics are a great value. What amp do you have paired with them? I feel like you need something more lush to counteract the tweeter.
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I think I’d 86 the Maggi’s and went with a cone based speaker with either a ribbon or beryllium tweeter, you’ll probably be a lot closer to that headphone crispness you’re looking for. Fritz Audio Philharmonic BMR or best case scenario…Have Soundfield Audio Custom Make you a set of speakers like the MMW’s… Call AJ and discuss your tastes and needs… Not as much as you think. Any of these should certainly will get you closer than Maggi’s to your headphones you’re using as your reference. I just got rid of my Maggi .7’s… I fed them lost of Hi Current Power and still No Attack, No the Slam I was jonesing for, sure they sounded good but dull. Nothing wrong with the sound Maggi’s project, lots of folks love em, thought I would, but panels just didn’t work for me. |
@classicrockfan - I don’t know if spending my money on trying to get these speakers to resolve with a more expensive preamp is going to fix the issue. It sounds like to me like I should have gotten brighter gear. My single driver Lii Audio Silver 6 speaker with custom enclosure was bright at times and temperamental but gave me good detail. I think I might need to settle with these speakers and find matching gear to play to their strengths or just end up going with something else all together. @ghdprentice - what do you recommend for my budget? Are their SS offering pretty good compared to tubes? I’m leaning towards a LS9 or LS3. @sameyers1 - that's my fear but ATC stuff (which I really like) is around the $2-$3k and I just sold my Wharfdale Linton stands. What I really like about the Maggies is their soundstage and the ability for attributes like vocals to just bring you to another place. They definitely sound bigger than the speakers and these are the only speakers I've been able to really get me to understand soundstage. They might be the same tonality wise as Wharfdale as I believe their higher end offerings 10.2, Linton, etc. aren't particular detailed as well unless perhaps you're talking about the Evo 4.2s or something. |
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In the 1980’s when I was getting into high end audio I swapped preamps looking for a good sounding preamp. After half a dozen failed attempts I bought my first (used) Audio Research preamp. My swapping immediately ended. I had that preamp for fifteen years. A few years later adding an Audio Research phonostage. I have researched and upgraded my system many times and piece by piece ended up with more Audio Research components. Once, I put one in, it stays, except to upgrade to a higher tier. Audio Research from the beginning has focused on natural musical sound with detail… hence the words high definition written on their components. But unlike many brands that have lost the music in pursuit of detail and slam ARC has carefully walked down the knife edge, not losing the musical core while increasing resolution and black backgrounds. They are built like tanks with intended lifetimes in the decades. All of my main system is now Audio Research. Highly recommended. Do not waste your time on ASR. The site focuses on graphs and chart of parameters that obfuscate what components actually sound like to the human ear. The site will point you in the wrong direction if you want high quality sound. Look at used Audio Research LS or REF series preamps, as contemporary as you can afford. You can see my systems under my User ID. |
I don’t disagree with @soix that your speakers may be part of the problem. I’ve listened to the LRS and didn’t find it as resolving as say an ATC-19 or an Aerial Acoustics 5T, both in the $4k range new so you’d be looking at used. They are both stand mount or bookshelf speakers suited to an apartment. But I do think the preamp is also part of the problem. |
@soix - yes people who have heard the Hifiman headphones (really any variant) Arya, Susvara, SE or HE1000 will know what I’m talking about. Wide soundstage with lots of resolving micro detail. Monitor Audio is supposed to be brighter so would make sense that they would resolve better. I probably got the wrong speakers so have to decide if I just want these for their great midrange. I love the LS3/A variants like the Graham Chartwells as well as Falcon Gold Badges, Harbeths, etc. so maybe that’s where I’ll settle and realize the limitations (or looked at different the strengths) of my current setup. |
My suggestion is the Pass Korg B1 Pre Amp. Buying one built by a competent EE, will be the best advised as the approach to a purchase. There are also models now having undergone tweaks to the Circuit and VC. I am familiar with the differing builds that can be produced and am always impressed. This option will keep you well under budget. |
I’ve got Hifiman Arya Stealths so have an idea of the level of detail you’re looking for, and I was able to get there with my big rig so it’s definitely doable and highly doubt the preamp is the limiting factor here. I think the amp and possibly the speakers are the source of the problem as the Parasound, although a good amp, is reputed to be on the warm side. I had this Bryston pre paired with a similar McCormack amp to the one below and would highly recommend them given what you’re looking for. Pair them with speakers like these Monitor Audio Silvers (or maybe monitors since you have a small room) and you’ll likely get all the detail you’re missing along with excellent imaging/3D soundstage. Just some ideas FWIW, and best of luck in getting what you’re looking for. https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649989850-monitor-audio-silver-300-6g/ |
I have a pair of Aerial Acoustics Model 8b floorstanders in a large room. They are relatively inefficient, 4 ohm speakers and power hungry like Maggies, but a more traditional 3-way rear ported woofer design. The amp is a well maintained Proceed HPA-2 (a Levinson design), putting out 250w/ch at 8 and 500w/ch at 4 ohms. The amp is a balanced unit like the Ayre preamp and they are a good match. I listened to Ayre amps when I purchased the preamp, but kept the Proceed. Felt it had a bit more meat on the bones, a more full bodied sound. You can find reviews of both the speakers and amp online. |
@sameyers1 - what speakers and amp are you running with that preamp? Ayre stuffs looks to be a good value and fast, resolving, and clean which is what I would thought I’d be getting even with the entry level Maggie’s. |
Given your headphone setup I agree with those believing it will be hard to match its resolution and detail with the Maggie LRS. If you want micro detail look at a used Ayre Acoustics K-5xe preamp. It is extremely quiet and detailed without being harsh. It is a balanced preamp, a good match for your system and better than your amp. You should be able to find one in the $1500 range. I’ve owned one for years and have rarely been tempted to switch. Read some reviews. |
Everyone makes good points here. Perhaps comparing headphone resolution to speaker resolution for the same amount of input cost is silly. I had some custom designed Single Driver speakers based on Lii Audio paper cone drivers. They were almost just as picky but I could get the detail I wanted out of them for around the same price ($1000 tube amp and $1500 for the speakers). I should probably just accept what the Maggie’s are good at and that’s midrange and get something like a Conrad Johnson or something. |