Do you have the kind with 2 amp inputs??
If so, consider a second amp for the woofer, with an EQ. :)
If so, consider a second amp for the woofer, with an EQ. :)
Need more slam! Help!
Hi all,
For the most part I am very happy with my current system. I’m still pretty new at the hobby, been about 3 years or so but in that time I feel that I’ve been able to cobble together a pretty nice system.
I currently have a vpi prime scout with an ortofon 2m black cartridge running to a musical surroundings phonomena to a rogue rp1 preamp, to rogue st90 amp and concluding with vandersteen model 3 signatures. Audioquest diamond back interconnects and kimbercable speaker wire.
First, here’s what I love about my setup - huge soundstage, really open and three dimensional. And this is probably what I find most exciting in home audio reproduction, I love feeling as if I’m looking at the stage from the third row and can pick out where everyone is, truly magic to have that feeling from the living room couch. I am pleased with the speed and accuracy of my system, it feels very articulate and controlled.
Now for what I’m yearning for, basically just more omph. I want a lot more snap on a snare hit, I want to feel the music more in a physical sense. I guess you could describe this as a more “live” sound but that’s not exactly what I mean. I really just want some more slam. Where should I be targeting, thinking power amp? Thanks in advance!
For the most part I am very happy with my current system. I’m still pretty new at the hobby, been about 3 years or so but in that time I feel that I’ve been able to cobble together a pretty nice system.
I currently have a vpi prime scout with an ortofon 2m black cartridge running to a musical surroundings phonomena to a rogue rp1 preamp, to rogue st90 amp and concluding with vandersteen model 3 signatures. Audioquest diamond back interconnects and kimbercable speaker wire.
First, here’s what I love about my setup - huge soundstage, really open and three dimensional. And this is probably what I find most exciting in home audio reproduction, I love feeling as if I’m looking at the stage from the third row and can pick out where everyone is, truly magic to have that feeling from the living room couch. I am pleased with the speed and accuracy of my system, it feels very articulate and controlled.
Now for what I’m yearning for, basically just more omph. I want a lot more snap on a snare hit, I want to feel the music more in a physical sense. I guess you could describe this as a more “live” sound but that’s not exactly what I mean. I really just want some more slam. Where should I be targeting, thinking power amp? Thanks in advance!
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https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis413a-jadis-ja-500-dual-mono-w-custom-stands-tube I drove B&W Nautilus 801 with Jadis 500 about 20 years ago. It gave the most powerful slam in my listening room. |
Thanks for all the replies thus far! Really appreciate it. @erik_squires the preamp has two outs so I could go to an active woofer. I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on that with my setup. I'm not looking for deeper bottom end, the Vandersteen's reach low enough for me. Would a woofer help with the "snap" and "slam" I'm looking for? @bdp24 thanks for that recommendation. I will research further. @shkong78 Thanks for the recommendation, interesting indeed but 18k is not happening right now. I'm happy to invest up to $3k to get me closer to what I'm looking for. 18k is more than the worth of my whole system. |
You’ve one of the most polite audiophile sounding speakers on the planet. Not a bad thing, they are just that. A sub may get you there. I’ve lived where you are now. I added a JL 10” sub and got closer. Then I opened the gates and went active towers. Done. Slam, articulation, presence and attack. Big on the attack! Once you go active, it’s done. |
Thank you everyone for your replies. It seems so far consensus is adding a sub. I’m not opposed to that, and I’ll ask more questions down the line. I guess I’m curious what folks think about the amount of power I’m giving the vandersteens and if more would get me closer to what I’m after. in terms of subs, I know nothing about them, would love recommendations below the 1.5k price point. Thanks! |
The 3a sigs are great. I feel you’re spot on about their strong points. Feed them power and they’ll go deep with live concert atmosphere and imaging. That’s their strength and I loved them for it. I found them to respond well to system upgrades but held back in the areas you’re looking at. I suggest conservative upgrades, enjoy what they do, move on or move up the line. |
I am almost certain those speakers are bi-ampable. If you are getting deep enough bass response from the speakers, getting a first rate SS power amp to drive the bass might do the job. A used Chord or Krell power amp would definitely do the job. You could also look at a Class D. The Classe Sigma Amp 2 can be had at a sharp price. I sold one not long ago for about $1200. PS Audio Stellars would work here. If an amp is described as bright or analytic it is brilliant for this application and lots of power to control that bass driver. You won’t hear the brightness under 500hz. |
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sammy, i have been in your situation with similar rogue audio amplification. there are a few things working against you at the moment. 1, your vandersteen speakers have a flat, neutral response while most speakers do have a bass peak in the bass and midbass area. adding more power will not add more slam. 2, the rogue rp1 has only 3db of gain. i had the rogue rh5 which had adjustable gain, 3db, 12db and 16db. the 3db setting was very soft and flat, lacking dynamics. the 12db setting was awesome! i highly recommend a preamp with more gain at some point. however there are some measures you can take. a, put some brimar 12au7 in the rp1. i added them to the rh5 and bass slam was improved noticeably, again altering the flatness in your speakers response. upscale audio has good deals. b, a rel subwoofer. i have 2 rel t9i in my system. they are musical, seamless and easy to integrate and provide a good amount of heft. they will not step on that famous rogue image and will add to the already spacious rogue sound stage. fyi even with the rogue stereo 100 and parasound a21+, the rogue rh5 linestage sounded lifeless at 3db gain. that is your main issue. peace and good luck! |
You might check if your stylus rake angle is too low. If you can adjust the height of your tonearm, put the stylus on the lead in track with the platter stationary. With a magnifying glass and a flashlight, look at the cantilever and the top of the diamond. If the rear is lower than level, move the arm up so the top of the diamond is parallel or the rear ever so slightly higher than the surface of the record. This might give you a bit more slam. |
Snare slam is normally north of the woofer. I had 3a for many years w Mac SS 200 wpc amp that can wake them up. Brother runs them now w big Threshold. They are very neutral. Too far out from the wall is something you can change easy and free. The point about low gain front end very valid :-) sounds like you have a super fantastic system for just 3 years in |
First and foremost it comes down to speakers and the drivers they are utilizing. I am not familiar with those speakers so cannot directly opine but I'd guess they are on the more polite side and there is not much slam you will achieve without replacing them. Second, when I added more watts to my system, I got more slam. Not saying that would necessarily happen to yours, just sharing my experience. Last, a subwoofer will definitely help with oomph, however the crack of a snare happens well outside of a subwoofer's range (low end bass) so that does not exactly correlate. |
@ditusa @sammyshapsThe earliest versions of the Rogue RP-1 had low gain and users were complaining about the anemic sound. Later versions were in fact updated to 7db of gain. Either way they do not sound dynamic or powerful. my linestage was the RH-5 headphone amp / linestage, not the RP-5. The RH-5 has adjustable gain of 3db, 12db and 16db. AT the 12db setting "slam" was very good. http://rogueaudio.com/Products_RH5.htm |
as a follow-up the rogue stereo 90 is a decently dynamic, powerful tube amp, as is the stereo 100. making the change to a 200 WPC power amp (for example) will not yield much more slam and you will lose the charm and refinement that comes from a tube power amp. add "slam" through your preamp, preamp tubes and subwoofer. the REL subs are the only ones I have tried that do not blur the clarity of the midrange. |
I had the early Von Schweikert Vortex Screens that were a clone of the Vandersteen 2C in looks, BUT...had better dynamics. Had them for 18 years and loved the sound. Your speakers sound very nice but more live dynamics are not the strong point of the Vandersteen line. The larger Tektons WILL give you the slam you're after. The Moab at $4500 is a killer deal and you'll most likely have an eargasm from the jump factor. I have had VMPS RM40 BCSE for about 8 years and other VMPS speakers prior to that and I obviously love the sound after hearing several other well reviewed speakers in my system. If mine ever crap out, I will be going to the Moab's for their more live sound. They put the fun back into music! Bob |
