Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@prof I am not an "expert" but it only takes a layman to hear SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES.  Are you deaf (or rather taste depleted that you can't tell salt from sugar)?  I have many friends, some who are experts in sound who do this for a living and very successfully for some of them, others as a serious hobby.  THEY DON'T MEASURE EVERY DIFFERENCE, it's a waste of time if the difference is significant, for better or worse.  If it is just different but neither better or worse, they just say whatever one prefers.  Look at the construction of a Pangea $65 power cable and a Grover Huffman $350 or $750 power cable.  HUGE difference.   Patent issued for the Grover Huffman cable.  I am not stating that it is the best cable in the world or for any system over other cables (only the ones I've compared them to).  I KNOW from several systems which switched out those cables that those equipment owners are delighted to have greatly upgraded their audio systems at a reasonable cost.  You don't have to believe me, that's your prerogative.  However, no one will be wasting their $100s on inferior garbage cables using superior cables. 

Again, maybe all those above posts don't believe cables make any sonic difference.  Then don't read my analysis as you will be sorely disappointed.  Go back to your "snake oil" forums on ASR.   

Talk about wasting $10,000s and more on cables would be using the very inferior design (electrically provable yet patented) High Fidelity cables.  Some people love them.  Most who have heard them don't, including my personal experience with a wealthy analog audiophile who dumped them when he knew he was experiencing shrill and thin sound (he came over to my home and my relatively puny system had his jaw drop versus his $1 million system.   Luckily for the majority of audiophiles, High Fidelity cables corporation is defunct saving the public from bad and very expensive cables.  Contrarywise, I have never heard a less than excellent system using Masterbuilt cables despite their equally high price when used with Von Schweikert speakers.  I have no idea about their construction or test measurements.  They do work magnificently on those speakers though and in those associated systems.  And if you don't believe me on this, how about the 40 or 50 reviewers of the Von Schweikert speaker demonstrations over the past few years which had reportedly had them transfixed, spending hours past midnight and earning among the most awards as best in show.  I doubt that so many people are being mislead.  Maybe Masterbuilt cables aren't the best or best for their cost but they certainly earn credibility in the best show systems in audio.  

From a newer Forum by @erik_squires   Pleasurably better, not measurably better

I have created a new phrase: pleasurably better.

I am giving it to the world. Too many technophiles are concerned with measurably better, but rarely talk about what sounds better. What gives us more pleasure. The two may lie at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I use and respect measurements all the time, but I will never let any one of them dictate to me what I actually like listening to.

From @curtdr 

Everybody's ears are different... So, if something measures "flat," that's not necessarily how my ear hears it; so, for my pleasure factor, I may prefer speakers that rise in the high frequencies to somewhat offset my ears' drop in highs, as a simple example.

The point about Bose is well-taken.  It depends on the audience and the application.  While not my primary listening speakers, I have a pair of original 301 v1, refoamed woofer of course, hanging by wires under my porch awning.  We play poker out there.  Everybody including me loves the sound, in that application.  We're not critically listening, and it doesn't matter: we like it.

A speaker series that defies the "measure flat = great" metric is of course the Klipsch Heritage series.  The sort of "it ain't perfect but it doesn't even matter because it sounds so very engaging" experience that many people, most critics included, adore.  Even the Heresy IV have moved me to tears on occasion, and I "grew up" as a neutral leaning sort of guy.  They're like a gateway drug... it's hard to go back to more laid back sound, once you get used to 'em... and the problem is, they have me jones-ing for more:  Forte IV, here I come???  

@erik_squires 

What if I like 2.8% distortion?  Sure, we can measure it, but the engineering goal of lower is not the same as my personal listening goal of making things that sound good to me. 

 

If you prefer 2.8% distortion that's fine and dandy.
Who knows, on certain music and certain genres I might like it too.

But then again what if this 2.8% distortion is always audible, on all music?

What if this sometimes nice distortion on some recordings then turns into nasty distortion that you can't 'hear through'?

Perhaps the strongest argument for neutrality is that you get to hear the differences in different recordings rather than them all being smothered in the same sonic sauce.

I recall that of the criticisms of the Linn LP12 was that it put it's own sonic signature on everything that was played upon it, as opposed to decks like the Pink Triangle which were far more neutral.

This sonic signature (midbass warmth?) could sometimes suit certain types of music (jazz soul and funk?) and sometimes spoil others (piano, strings, pop, and rock?). 

 

I was again reminded of this whilst watching the latest video from the audiophlliac himself, Steve Guttenberg, who recently changed his reference loudspeakers.

One of the reasons Steve puts forward for swapping his Klipsch Cornwall's for the PureAudioProject Duet 15's is exactly this issue about neutrality.

Even if the Cornwall's do other things better, the more neutral 15s allow you to hear the differences between recordings better. 

The problem with audible distortion is that there is no such thing as an entirely benevolent distortion in all cases..

@holmz "To say that the ears are all different would be like saying that the feel of a block of ice or a hot stove is different because all people “feel” differently."

No... we have glasses or custom lasik to correct for differences in vision, some people even have color blindness, and we all have different hearing profiles. If we all had 20/20 vision and hearing, nobody would need correction. As for old and hot, 32 is 32 and 212 is 212, freezing and boiling.... (and even so, some people wear jackets when it's 70 degree weather, while others are loving it in shorts and t-shirt). But that’s not the same as flat to 20hz when my hearing isn’t flat to 20 hz.​​​​​​... If my hearing rolls off at 12hz, then a speaker that rises at that point might actually sound "flatter" to me, at my point of perception, than one that does not rise to compensate for my ears’ rolloff point.

This is why we have bass and treble controls too... to help compensate not only for our own individual hearing but also for our own personal preferences and purposes. It’s music, for crying out loud! Taste matters. I’ve seen plenty of "technically perfect" performances that were boring, boring to me, anyway. There’s something to be said for heart and soul... immeasurable factors. It doesn’t make sense to say one "should" prefer this or that sound, especially if one is reasonably cognizant of audio. Somebody who tells me I should prefer some speaker instead of one that I actually, in usage in my home, like pleasurably better... well, I can confidently dismiss that person’s opinion in that case.

Saying flat is ideal always reminds me of philosophers who have very neat ideal theories which then bump up against real world experience; I’m oversimplifying, but Kant’s "everybody should be treated as if they were all equally rational" comes to mind, and Rawl’s "social justice" theories, as does Marx’s so-called "scientific" economic theories, however compelling on paper... some universal theory of human experience will never, as far as I can tell, be formulated.

Not to dismiss measurements, I check 'em out myself, but technical measurements of equipment don't dictate the pleasure factor of individual listeners... never have, and, as far as I can tell, never will.  The evidence of this claim can easily be seen by the variety of individual choices sophisticated audiophiles make when it comes to our own preferred speakers, for example, in our homes.  In old school terms, "east coast sound vs. west coast sound,"  ... and on and on.  

@holmz "And it does not matter what every member of the audience is hearing..."

If you’re a member of the audience, it certainly does! It matters to oneself.

Ultimately, it does not matter what every measurement is telling me, if it doesn’t sound great to me, with my ears, in my room, to my taste.

Like someone earlier in this thread here, I am not here to serve the gear, the gear is here to serve me... so matter how "good" or how "bad" the measurable performance, if it doesn’t serve me pleasurably better, then it has no place in my home. Some "audiophiles" really are more "technophiles;" and technophilia has it’s place, but it ain’t gonna dictate my loving audio preferences.

I’ve heard plenty of speakers that "measure better" but that I do not like as much as certain personal trusty pleasurables, so obviously it would be downright silly to buy the less enjoyable speakers just because they measure better! (unless I’m trying to impress somebody other than myself... or if I’m being masochistic or audio-moralistic and insisting to myself that I should like the less enjoyable speakers, and damnit I’m going to make myself like them better because I "should"... )

 

 

My comments: @chmaiwald Great!  Food comparison.  McDonald's burgers measure better than any other fast food burger for consistency.   Despite that, I only eat Angus ground sirloin burgers at Le Petit French restaurant because they taste better to me.  Amir's answer-Le Petit's burgers are too expensive so I am throwing away money when I could have purchased half a dozen McDonald's.  

 

From @chmaiwald 

From the top of my hat I can‘t think of any hobby or whatever gives you pleasure where least personality is something widely accepted as the ultimate goal.

“I went out dining, and let me tell you, that casserole was so accurate. I loved its linearity. I measured it.“

I‘m joking of course, but I think there‘s something to it. 

@holmz 

This thread is like a group therapy session for 4th graders.

And you were hoping to give up that teaching job and travel.

Thanks @axo1989 I’ll do that.

One manufacturer that I use that posts specs and measurements is Auralex for my room treatments. Of all the things you can screw up in a system you don’t want to screw up the room. I find their products an excellent value as well. They were really helpful answering questions about my setup too and offer a free room analysis, very responsive. If anyone reading this hasn’t bothered to treat their room yet don’t wait. If you look at the pics in my profile you can see various treatments, bass traps, absorbers, diffusors. You can’t really hear what your system is capable of until you tune the room. DSP is limited in what it can do:

https://auralex.com/spec-sheets/

They have an app you use to design your layout too:

 

@fleschler

 

Are you deaf (or rather taste depleted that you can’t tell salt from sugar)?

I believe you have lobbed that insult more than once.

Can you tell me specifically what I wrote that leads you to think I have poor hearing?

My discernment for characteristics in sound, both large and minute, is routinely put under scrutiny for my job. I make a living with my hearing. I can't just brag about my hearing on an internet board.   If my hearing sucks, I lose my job.  How about you?

I’ve also put my hearing under rigorous tests where I don’t get to "peek" and ACTUALLY use ONLY my hearing to see what I can tell apart. That is: blind tests.

How often have you truly tested your hearing - your hearing ONLY! - rather than when you know what you are listening to? If you continue to brag about how you can tell things apart in "sighted" tests where you know different gear is being switched, that’s about as "impressive" as saying you can tell me what number the dice will roll...but only if you first get to look at the result after the roll.

 

 

 

My hearing is fine. It was tested twice in the past two years. My upper limit is 16 Khz, the tester said at normal amplitude which I do not know. I have exceptional hearing for my age as does my 88 year old mother. I must have great hearing and reflexes while sleeping to hear my wife’s Dexcom/phone alarm which just beeps to provide her with juice when her blood sugar drops and she would otherwise die.  She sleeps through fire alarms and has no awareness of low blood sugars after 61 years of Type 1 diabetes.  So, my hearing is critical to my marriage.

I also am very depended upon by an orchestra, chamber group and many choirs to make good recordings in major venues. My recordings are generally superior to current over-reverberant, distantly miked modern recordings. My chamber work has the clarity of the best jazz recordings.

There is a multitude of forums not on ASR and my above cited new Audiogon forum which is what I believe about measurements as a starting point, trial and error and personal listening preferences. You don’t like it, do what you want. I don’t need to be lectured as to right and wrong.

Sighted tests are verboten? They can only be guesses and wrong. Like rolling dice? Must have measurements! Must be ABX blind testing! Sounds as ridiculous as it is.

 

 

@kota1 +1 You are so correct.  Some audiophiles feel that the listening room is 50% of the sound.  I know from my experience, that getting the room acoustics right is fundamental to maximize the quality of the sound.  As you can read/see from my listening room components and construction, I get high end sound out of less than exorbitantly priced equipment because of my dedication to creating a favorable listening environment.  My neighbor wanted to purchase my home before I did and convert the 20X20X10 living room into a listening room because his room is just average with $1/2 million audio system.  At least he finally got cabling right so that it is now a very enjoyable listening experience at his house.  

@fleschler , it is so much less expensive to treat a room (maybe not an auditorium) than to keep switching out components.  Not that it can’t be made better, there is no perfect anywhere, but it is so "right" you just don’t have that same upgraditis any more (at least not to the same degree :) )

I had to work with the room I got, members who have purpose built rooms/studios very fortunate. The Auralex products are so inexpensive for what they deliver, at least in my room it was a great result.

When I see $$$$ speakers in a room surrounded by hard flat surfaces I feel bad, both for the speaker designer whose "vision" gets stuck in a less than ideal setup, and for the owner who is flushing that investment away.

You see people going on and on about what room correction software that came with their receiver and they spend big money to get the one they want. Then they stick that kilobuck receiver in the same untreated room and expect it will be magic, no.

This is a pretty good breakdown on how to get the best of both worlds, DSP and room treatments working together, even if you are not a Sound United customer.

At 5:00 in the video "If you use DSP you want it to do the least amount of work possible..... it can only do so much":

 

@kota I know. I only upgraded my analog with a new SUT to suit my former cartridge in 17 years. I now use a 1/3 less costly cartridge which sounds great with most of my collection. I have the same amps/pre-amp/phono pre for 20-22 years. It was only the digital realm that needed upgrading and I am successful at that so no more digital upgrades either. My ICs, power and speaker cables remain the same since 2018. My speakers are very good but when I can afford to, I want to upgrade them for similar sound, better dispersion (seating area) and ambiance retrieval. The more efficient line of Von Schweikert speakers I’ve heard would be ideal.

I’ve gone to two local homes with $$$$ speakers in $$$$ excellent built rooms but with either terrible cabling and/or equipment which ruined the sound. The equipment and/or cabling were just not synergistic (or could never be good sounding eg: High Fidelity cables).

Notice that I have a tapestry mounted on the front wall. I have not found something as thin and slightly absorptive that can compensate for the slight upper right corner echo we hear without it. I’ll check out GIK because they have inexpensive, cardboardy material that might work. I’ve tried a half dozen other panels which were either too absorptive or too reflective.

@holmz "And it does not matter what every member of the audience is hearing..."

If you’re a member of the audience, it certainly does! It matters to oneself.

Ultimately, it does not matter what every measurement is telling me, if it doesn’t sound great to me, with my ears, in my room, to my taste

@fleschler I try it again, but it seems I am not making the point simply enough.

If there is a singer, and people are listening to the singer, they are all listening to the same thing. Maybe those audience members not hear above 4 or 8kHz, or miss out on any low frequencies… whatever it is that they hear, if the same song was played back flat, where there is no difference between the real singer and the playback, so they would hear the same thing in playback as the live performance.

And… that applies to everyone in the audience.

I suppose that we can talk about the room that the performance is in not be uniform, and that at different locations there is an actual difference of sound… but let’s ignore that.

The audience may all hear differently, but they are hearing the same thing.
And if it is played back exactly the same then they should hear it as sounding the same, and we can quantify how accurate it is.

The glasses and laser surgery are more like room correction, to make the vision be the same. 

Whether you, or anyone else, prefers the tone controls adjusted is all fine and dandy… but brightening up the high frequencies by 10 or 20dB to account for hearing loss will result in the playback not being like the actual singer.
That actually live performance would then sound dull… which is fine if it is admitted that the playback is preferred over the live performance. But it is not the same as what was heard live.

 

And similarly; when people look at a Van Gogh painting, whether they see in black and white, or blurry, they are looking at the same painting. If the colours are shifted in hue, then it may look better, but it is a different rendition of the painting.

We should not confuse what is technically correct with preference. Whether we like it correct or not, is indeed taste and preference.

The tread topic was about spec and measurements, and how almost none of the manufacturers provide that data. Now it almost seems like you do not care about that data, and do not want to see it, as it doesn’t matter anyhow and you only want to get what aligns with your preference. Which seems to ignore, or imply, that you preference cannot correlate with any measurements or specs… and that it is a hopeless endeavour to even try?

 

The idea of manufacturers specs and measurements is that if one wants it correct, then they have an easy way to find that gear. And if they want it to have the BBC sound, then it makes it easy to identify the gear that has that particular sound.

Without measurements and specs, we have only the option to fly or drive around and find shops that carry that gear, and listen to them all… to figure out if it aligns with our preference or not.
Once we have heard a few systems and decide we like (for instance) the BBC sound, then we can pretty quickly go from hundreds of speakers choices, down to dozens… and it becomes a more tractable problem of listening to only those.

 

Personally I prefer more neutral speakers and lower distortion.
I can just throw a tube preamp in to tailor it to my preference, and then I only have spice in the preamp, and not scattered throughout the system. Or I can use a DSP.

We can have the specs and measurement and ignore them, but we cannot choose to look at the specs and measurements if they do not exist, or are hidden. I would rather have the choice of them existing and what the manufacturer is making to be advertised truthfully and transparently. I can always choose to ignore it if I want to.

@holmz  Again, you have not read my postings.  I am very concerned with test measurements to begin/began my search for equipment.  My speakers are very low distortion, especially at low frequencies and are relatively neutral without major humps or bumps.  My tube gear is on the warm side of neutral but not "tubey," or high in distortion, even or odd, from low to high power range.  My cartridge test measured flat from 10Hz to 20Khz per the test sheet (unlike Lyras with their rising high end test measurements I've seen as well a heard).  

Where there are no measurements, I use trial and error as does everyone I know locally (and that's 100s of audiophiles, music lovers, etc). 

If I don't get your point, then maybe I have too low an IQ and you're just a genius.  

@fleschler 

 

My hearing is fine.

Ok, so that makes two of us.

 

Sighted tests are verboten? They can only be guesses and wrong. Like rolling dice? Must have measurements! Must be ABX blind testing! Sounds as ridiculous as it is.

So you have never truly put ONLY your hearing to the test where you can't cheat. 

Ok.  (except, apparently, via an audiogram. And it's funny you'd accept those results, which are a blind test, but refuse to accept the validity of blind testing components for what you can *really* hear or not).

If you ever do so you may find it enlightening.  As I've said, between us it seems my approach shows the greater humility.

But it's clear by now we can't seem to communicate about this issue.

We'll talk gear elsewhere.  Cheers.

If I don’t get your point, then maybe I have too low an IQ and you’re just a genius.

@fleschler I doubt it, but I am smart enough not to argue it.

 

I suspect that your system and mine are more similar than dissimilar, in equipment choice. And that they likely sound pretty similar. Your’s is probably better, and mine is good enough for me.

There is some correlation with “pleasurably better” and “measures better.” Your cartridge sounds like it might be an example of that.

 

Again, you have not read my postings.

I read the last post, where you quoted me out of a whole different thread, and how everyone hears differently.
I think that that response should have gone in that thread, but here we are.

You likely want your system to sound both like the real singer in a live performance, and also sound good to you. Maybe you twist a tone control, I dunno, but I suspect I would not find it too edgy or nor too dull.

And I suspect if I twisted your tone controls around so that it sounded bad to me, that our hearing is not so different that it would sound good to you.
Yeah - It’s possible, but I doubt it.

@holmz

Thanks @axo1989 I’ll do that.

I was aiming for sympathetic humour, not trying to insult you, sorry if it misfired.

@jerryg123 

I also know you are not an EE all you are is some guy with some software (that a member had to teach you how to use) and then you banished him from ASR.

 

My background is an open book.  It is linked to every post on ASR for example: 

I do have an electrical engineering degree.  But importantly, I grew up with electronics.  No way I could do what I am doing without that knowledge.  Here is a bit of what is posted there on my background:

"Without giving away my exact age, I grew up in 1960s with analog electronics as my primary hobby. Learned that from my oldest brother who likewise had the same hobby and spent his nights and days designing electronics. This gave me an intuition for analog electronics which to this day serves me better any textbook or formal education.

Speaking of formal education, I naturally aimed to get an Electrical Engineering degree which I received in early 1980s (still trying hard to not give away my age!). During that time though, the personal computer revolution was upon us and I quickly fell in love with my second hobby: software. I programmed my Apple II and later managed the computer lab at the college where I wrote a bunch of custom software including an editor all the students used to write their programs.

During schooling, I worked at an electronics repair shop, fixing everything from audio equipment to VHF radios. That childhood experience really got cemented combined with a new skill of having to troubleshoot equipment, usually with no schematic. All in all, I repaired hundreds of pieces of equipment, getting a good feel for quality engineering versus not.

[...]

In late 1980s I had an opportunity to work at the computer division of Sony. Initially the job was building a software team to develop Unix but we proposed and won approval to design and build our own hardware to go with it. There we went deep, developing our own ASICs (large scale custom electronic IC), motherboards, audio subsystem, power supply, LCD display etc. Working for Sony was great as at that time they were in their peak of success and their quality standards were quite high. We combined that with great engineering from US in silicon valley and really pushed state of the art in design and simulation at that time."

There is more there and you can also look up on my LinkedIn profile.

My measurements of hardware is with Audio Precision APx555.  It is not "software" but software controls it of course.  I have had an AP since early 1990s so am quite familiar with how to use it.  Speaker measurements are with Klippel Near-field Scanner ($100K system).  I don't need the help of some random person you say we banned at ASR.

If this is how you research your facts about audio, no wonder you are so lost in the woods there.

@amir_asr , my sincere compliments on your accomplishments.

Now that you listed your creds I feel even better we are beating you at the

system/FR measurement throw down-

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

You can have a rematch anytime, with those creds you should do much better in the rematch, just answer the bell this time and post your system pics, components, and FR graph in your profile.

Otherwise that really long post of your impressive creds= just more hot air.

 

 

@amir_asr do not tag me. I am not lost I am not one of your followers and as I have stated I will never go on your site.

I really do not care about your equipment, software or you.

I bid you good day and good riddance.

Looks like you wasted $100K.

Oh and I figured it out, you are old. 

Good day.

@prof   but refuse to accept the validity of blind testing components for what you can *really* hear or not).  I do NOT refuse to accept the validity of blind testing equipment, cables or tweaks.  However, I am unable to do blind testing.  So, I rely on my hearing.  Not too bad in my opinion.  I also listen to my friends who have superior acoustic listening/interpretation ability.  They pinpoint problems, one who has Asperger and audio sound is his superiority in life.  His hearing is like a computer.  I don't inform my two Golden Ear friends what I have done/doing.  They tell me what they are hearing and often, what corrections should be made.  Try topping that with Blind Testing by the usual crowd of audiophiles.  They have really taught me to hear/listen better.  My wife is so used to decades of my cable testing  for the manufacturer that she automatically is skeptical of the sound whether it meets with her approval or something less.  She said I have trained her to hear sound as well as music.  Before me, she was fine listening to a boombox and car radio.  

@holmz I have posted my components and my room on Audiogon.  I do not have tone controls.  I don't mess around with feedback settings, cartridge impedance settings, etc.  I can adjust these but once I found the best sounding setting, I leave them alone.  I sit back and listen to music.  I don't play with equipment, it's not my thing. 

I've heard $15+K cartridges and they did sound great with my hot stampers.  They don't typically sound as good with my lesser pressings, mono LPs, etc.  That is why I chose to step down to a Dynavector 20X2L.  One friend who is an LP only expert who is seen all over the Southwest at shows selling high end jazz as well as rock and classical agreed that his Dynavector 20X2H played more LPs better than his current Dynavector XX2L.  When the latter wears out, he will return the former.  Three other friends with 3,500 to 8,000 LPs also use the same cartridge, one stepping down from the Dynavector D3.  The 20X2 sounds great on so many LPs.  

 

@kota1  Right! Where are his in room test measurements?  Did he post them on his site?  Or does he think that just by choosing the best measuring equipment (and any old major brand professional cable) that his room sound measures perfectly (or anywhere near perfect throughout or just in the sweet spot seat)? 

@amir_asr

If this is how you research your facts about audio, no wonder you are so lost in the woods there.

Gus Van Sant has already made a cautionary film about what happens when you follow Gerry into the wilderness. Sadly I can only link to the trailer in German, but you don't really need language to convey the scenario:

 

@fleschler 

@kota1  Right! Where are his in room test measurements?  Did he post them on his site?  Or does he think that just by choosing the best measuring equipment (and any old major brand professional cable) that his room sound measures perfectly (or anywhere near perfect throughout or just in the sweet spot seat)? 

If you are interested, you can see measurements in his listening room (with and without room EQ via the Lyngdorf) in the ASR discussion linked by @prof upthread (iirc). This one (sorry to inflict the ASR sheep logo on everyone, not sure how to link without embedding) ...

 

I don't use this term lightly because it's often tossed around too recklessly.

But jerryg123 is clearly trolling.   Again...what people get out of being trolls is beyond me, it's a very odd way to spend one's time, but...almost every forum is infected at one point or another by people who spend their time that way.

I suppose at least it has afforded an opportunity for Amir to re-iterate some of his credentials for others who may be interested, but clearly you-know-who is not here for actual civil conversation.

 

 

@kota1 

system/FR measurement throw down-

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

I don't know why you keep giving  yourself score of 1.  You have not post any measurements of your room as it sits now.  What you have in your profile is a fantasy.  It is NOT your room current room measurements.  You don't even know how to use the tool you have there.  Right now, I would give you score of -1. 

@amir_asr

Still waiting for you to post something, anything, that is why you have 0.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt you have a system so you do not get -1.

Can we get this game on, will you post your system profile, stop with the hot air already???

 

 

 

@prof you are a reader right? You troll through all these threads cause you have nothing better to do. 

How did you miss this? Amir tagged me. 

Now goodnight to you and charge those batteries on your trolling motor.

 

I do NOT refuse to accept the validity of blind testing equipment, cables or tweaks. 

 

That's good.

However, I am unable to do blind testing.  So, I rely on my hearing. 

Ok, that's fine.  As I've argued, most of us don't have the time or set up or inclination to do blind testing.  Buy what you want, for whatever reason.

But it gives me plenty of reason to maintain skepticism if you happen to make claims for hearing things that are technically improbable.  My skepticism shouldn't stop you from buying whatever you want of course...but if for instance you said an expensive digital cable made Big Differences in your system vs a functioning cheap digital cable, I'm quite aware it is likely sighted bias at work, unless it could be shown you or someone else could reliably identify these changes "without peeking." ;-)

Not too bad in my opinion.  I also listen to my friends who have superior acoustic listening/interpretation ability.  They pinpoint problems, one who has Asperger and audio sound is his superiority in life.  His hearing is like a computer.  I don't inform my two Golden Ear friends what I have done/doing.  They tell me what they are hearing and often, what corrections should be made.  Try topping that with Blind Testing by the usual crowd of audiophiles.  They have really taught me to hear/listen better.  My wife is so used to decades of my cable testing  for the manufacturer that she automatically is skeptical of the sound whether it meets with her approval or something less.  She said I have trained her to hear sound as well as music.  Before me, she was fine listening to a boombox and car radio.  

And the point that you don't want to acknowledge is that literally nothing you described in that paragraph protects you or anyone you mentioned from regular old perceptual biases in which you can hear things that aren't there.

Maybe that sounds dismissive to you.  But think of what your position will be when I might say "I don't hear a difference" with some gear change that you believe sounds different.  Your response will be dismissive of my hearing (or gear, or whatever), it won't act as any evidence against what you firmly believe because, as you've said, if you believe you heard it, it's true.

And, once again, I tend to buy gear essentially the same way you do, by listening to it, so we are not that far off as audiophiles.  I just try to maintain epistemic humility in the face of our perceptual fallibility, and acknowledge I could be wrong.

Now that you listed your creds I feel even better we are beating you at the

system/FR measurement throw down-

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

You can have a rematch anytime, with those creds you should do much better in the rematch, just answer the bell this time and post your system pics, components, and FR graph in your profile.

Otherwise that really long post of your impressive creds= just more hot air.

 

Yeesh.  This stuff is getting pretty childish.

Good sign this thread is in a death spiral. 

Time to abandon. 

See y'all....

 

 

 

Buh Bye @prof  

@kota1 

Can we get this game on, will you post your system profile, stop with the hot air already???

Are you trying to avoid discussing yours???  

@amir_asr

Another bait and switch? Please POST, you got creds a mile long, your a dealer, a website owner, and also a guest of this site.

I will give you rematch, NP. As soon as you POST and get rid of that big goose egg that has been coming after ASR in this throw down OK?

 

 

 

 

@amir_asr ... found an English trailer I can link, and I reckon I was wrong, the dialog really is on point: "how do you think the hike's going so far?" ...

 

@amir_asr

You said:

"You don’t even know how to use the tool you have there."

You spent $100K on your tools and can’t even measure your own room, you think I have problems? LOL...

 

@prof  So, you are a firm believer that all digital cable, if correctly made, sounds the same.  So what I say is snake oil.  That's where I am 100% certain you are mistaken.  I stated you can believe what you want but don't imply that I am wrong because I didn't test measure the differences or that I am being deceived (or all of my friends and experts are also being deceived).  Go back to ASR's snake oil forums and write all you want about how all digital cables sound the same, I don't care.  There is an immense difference in sound from the six different cables I tried.  

This is as silly as my neighbor who is an electrical engineer who thought all power cables should sound the same with a $1/2 million system that had major frequency irregularities and sonic mush.  He often changed expensive equipment not knowing why they didn't satisfy him.  Just one superior cable on his amp and he was convinced he was wrong.  After replacing all six power cables, he admits that scientifically it is unexplainable but the difference exists.  You think he is being deceived now?  That he is a fool too?    Yes, I guess based on your certainty that all digital cables sound the same that power cables also sound the same, unless you reserve your "truth" only about digital cables.

@fleschler 

After replacing all six power cables, he admits that scientifically it is unexplainable but the difference exists. 

Science trivially explains that.  You mad a change, he listened more carefully and now he "heard" more detail, air, etc.  Nothing had changed in the sound.  It was him that changed because our hearing is elastic and 2-way.  A comparison causes our brain to work differently and hence we perceive things differently.  

We prove the above two ways:

1. We test the person blind and repeat at least 10 times and see if he gets > 8 right.  Every audiophile tested this way has failed to hear the same differences.

2. We perform measurements to see if there is a difference or not.  If nothing has changed in the waveform coming out of your audio device, then your listening test protocol is wrong.

All of this has been known for decades.  But some audiophiles refuse to believe it.  No amount of explaining the simple facts of how their perception works makes them change.  They go on wasting money on useless audio product after useless audio product.

I have tested a number of digital audio cables by the way. The last one was the $1,800 Nordost Tyr 2: 

I also performed listening tests and found no differene.

Before you come back and say you can hear what I can't, turn on a video camera and perform the AB test and repeat 10 times randomly.  Unless you can show this, you have no case.  None.  You are simple unaware of how your hearing and perception work.  

 

I was aiming for sympathetic humour, not trying to insult you, sorry if it misfired.

yeah @axo1989 I wasn’t sure if it was humour or an insult, so I picked up a travel book at the newsagent. 😎

I do a bit of mentoring for workmates, and they are pretty skilled, but occasionally they like a pointer. That is about as close to teaching as I get.

I suspect that some of the posters here have made retirement or alcoholism a real thing for their teachers.

@fleschler 

That he is a fool too? 

Folks used to think you caught a cold because the air was cold.  This didn't make them a fool.  They just didn't know that it was caused by a virus.  Every bone in their body thought it was the cold weather because that is when people generally caught cold.  It made layman sense.  But simply was not true.

Professionals in every field know of things that lay people think are true but they are not.  In audio however, folks walk around ignoring what the science/engineering says.  They think they are so smart that they have figured out things that eluded those people.  

So no, he is not a fool but was fooled by you.  He didn't know everything I just explained.  You do but still go on causing people to believe in nonsense and cost them money.

I've heard $15+K cartridges and they did sound great with my hot stampers.  They don't typically sound as good with my lesser pressings, mono LPs, etc.  That is why I chose to step down to a Dynavector 20X2L.  One friend who is an LP only expert who is seen all over the Southwest at shows selling high end jazz as well as rock and classical agreed that his Dynavector 20X2H played more LPs better than his current Dynavector XX2L.  When the latter wears out, he will return the former.  Three other friends with 3,500 to 8,000 LPs also use the same cartridge, one stepping down from the Dynavector D3.  The 20X2 sounds great on so many LPs.  

@fleschler it would be neat if we had a way to avoid the first $15k cartridge and just go straight to the better one - which is also cheaper… sometimes cost is not the best metric.

Here is a video to watch if you don't believe in being fooled:

 

If you are interested, you can see measurements in his listening room (with and without room EQ via the Lyngdorf)

I have not used room EQ for 2 channel yet, but on the AVP it works well.

Maybe I can set up the AVP to output another “zone” as 2 channel with room correction… like a 2.2.0 setup?

But I sort of like a bare 2 channel set up, and would need to try to see if it is good.

@holmz  I agree.  The $15K cartridge sounded great in a $1+ million system (Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement on a Kronos top turntable). Using my LPs, it couldn’t sound more realistic and involving. Maybe it would have sounded great on my other old and/or poorly pressed LPs. I know from experience and friends who had more expensive cartridges that they preferred certain LPs over others. While sounding great on some, they sounded blah or irritating on others. My Benz Ruby3 did not like SUTs. It preferred playing through an active step up in a phono pre-amp. The Dynavector loves my Zesto Allesso SUT.

@amir - YOU ARE SO FULL OF YOURSELF!!!!!You mad a change, he listened more carefully and now he "heard" more detail, air, etc. Nothing had changed in the sound. It was him that changed because our hearing is elastic and 2-way. A comparison causes our brain to work differently and hence we perceive things differently. Sure, my friend is such a fool too, he’s an electrical engineer with a net worth north of $50 million with 552 apartment units, multiple homes, etc. He is so stupid he can’t tell when his system sucked (3 friends and myself did not appreciate the ragged/bad bass and mushy, distant/behind the speaker floating in the air sound). He swapped equipment annually for $10,000s and lost $26K on one amp in 2020. After Covid, he replaces junk power cables with quality ones and he is 100% mislead by his imagination. NO NO NO!!!!! You are full of hot air (and that’s being nice)!

You service your miscreants and sane members of ASR. I am not an authority on measurements like you say you are. But I bet that I am more an authority on creating a great sounding system with new or used equipment! I have friends in the remastering and audio equipment manufacturing business, the latter who put your puny knowledge of audio equipment to shame. When was the last time you developed your own amp, pre-amp, phono stage, DAC, turntable, arm, cables (oh anyone can do that-not!). Never? My friends in the business know a lot more than you do and they say I have a very good ear for sound. You’re just the Wizard of Oz.

holmz I agree. The $15K cartridge sounded great in a $1+ million system (Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement on a Kronos top turntable). Using my LPs, it couldn’t sound more realistic and involving. Maybe it would have sounded great on my other old and/or poorly pressed LPs. I know from experience and friends who had more expensive cartridges that they preferred certain LPs over others. While sounding great on some, they sounded blah or irritating on others. My Benz Ruby3 did not like SUTs. It preferred playing through an active step up in a phono pre-amp. The Dynavector loves my Zesto Allesso SUT.

I can only imagine what sort of systems many people have.
Luckily I am a simple fellow with simple tastes, so I can get by with average gear.

I did come close to getting a Micro Benz last year though (LPS). I have no idea what the ruby3 is, which probably means I cannot afford it 🙄

I have to say that some of the responses by certain posters, including the OP, have been very disappointing.

@prof is a serious audiophile who has related, professional qualifications, is an independent thinker, and a very helpful contributor to a number of audio forums. His contributions are almost invariably substantial, respectful, and grounded in facts. His impressions of certain speakers are as eloquent and useful as any that I have come across from professional reviewers.

It’s a mystery to me why anyone would lash out at him, essentially because he refuses to budge from the reasonable position that if people hear differences between components when there is no scientific explanation for such differences, the claims can only be fully compelling through blind testing.

Note that I am much more of a "subjectivist" than "objectivist", and strongly believe that I have heard differences between both speaker and powers cables. I currently use some fairly expensive cables, albeit purchased used. I have not engaged in blind testing because of how complicated and expensive it would be, but completely agree that @prof would be correct about my claims being suspect. I can’t deny that I am vulnerable to biases, nor can I guarantee that I would pass a blind test.

I also don’t get the vitriol aimed at @amir_asr. I don’t spend much time on his site, but to dismiss his qualifications with the wave of a hand is ludicrous. He has a far better foundation on which to perform the kind of tests that he does than the vast majority of audiophiles.

At some point I will write a post about some of my recent experiences with power cables, which were certainly compelling to me, even in the absence of blind testing!

This is another review of the Nordost Tyr2 cables from TAS that includes the specs:

"So, transparency, precision, purity, depth, texture, openness, expansiveness… Nordost’s Tyr 2 loom brings all of this and more to the listening experience. Yet as I wrap up these thoughts another word now pops to mind that perhaps best sums up my analogy between wine and audio: transformative. That is perhaps the ultimate thing I can say about any experience."

Wayne Garcia 2020

 

From the beginning of the hi-fi hobby in the 1950s, "performance characteristics" WERE tests results.  Trade magazines used 3rd party labs (Hirsch-Hauck etc.) as independent evaluators.  And for decades my policy was not to buy anything that did not publish meaningful technical specifications that were the minimum performance a buyer could expect.  However these evolved into meaningless "marketing specs" that, if they measured anything, was the lone "creampuff" no one could expect to buy.  Now living in a cancel-culture that poo-poos science and expertise, many (most?) consumers don't have the knowledge or time to learn about measured performance specs, so manufacturers seldom publish them.  Many store salespersons haven't a clue.  One of the last to fall was JBL Professional until acquisition of Harman by Samsung, where established models have been cancelled wholesale, but new lines have no performance data or curves.  And consumer magazine "reviews" are ever more blatantly advertiser-influenced, using the same purple prose as their ads.  I have T&M equipment, and return sub-standard audio electronics, typically for "pin1 problems" or output powerr given as only one channel driven to near destruction.  And rejected speakers for high distortion, flabby bass, and advertising bogus LF extension (rather than -3dB, advertising "range" that implies -10dB).  Caveat emptor - Buyer beware.

@rcaguy +1 I agree with you.  There is a lack of accurate test measurements by manufacturers.  There is an overabundance of purple prose.   Specs are often meaningless (when I see -10db bass frequency, I assume there is something suspect about the bass response).  That is why I started this forum.  I certainly would not want to purchase a cartridge not knowing it's operational characteristics and frequency response, then installing it, breaking it in, adjusting it's installation and find out it is a mismatch physically to my arm or pre-amp or sonically to my taste.  Tweaks and high end cables are the worst with no specs or measurements generally.

@holmz  The Ruby 3 was $3000 in 2005.  Today, if new, probably $4500-$5000.  Out of my price range (although I can afford it, I just can't tolerate owning such a delicate item that could be rendered worthless so easily).  Retailers were trying to convince me that the Umami Red $4000 cartridge would be perfect for me.  Maybe.  I made my choice after hearing many friends Dynavector 20XH and maybe half a dozen used at audio shows.  Never failed to impress me.  

@whipsaw Ask yourself, why is Amir bothering to come to this site?  To lecture us on right and wrong on deciding to purchase equipment?  To advertise the superiority of his knowledge over all of us (not me and certainly not my many friends in the industry, manufacturers, remastering engineers and even another very smart and wealthy electrical engineer).  I hate it when someone tells me that I can't determine gross differences in sound without blind testing. That it is all a bias I have (I don't care one way or the other whether it's new or used equipment, cheap or expensive).  I am a very learned listener and have heard over 1000 audio systems in my life.  If uninterested laymen can hear a difference, how much more so for a trained listener?   

When I was in colleges, 45+ years ago, people had me have their equipment repaired and would install them with the best sounding/matching cabling.  I remember one system with all tube Harmon Kardon gear and large Altec speakers.  I had them purchase a Harmon Kardon turntable, Dynavector cartridge and Fulton speaker cabling.  Boy, that was a nice sounding system.  I'm sure Amir would hate that system after he measured it, it's so full of distortion.  Sure, there wasn't much to set up a cartridge in that table, just VTF and VTA at the time.  Regardless, the elderly and wealthy couple loved it until they passed.  I make people happy listening to music.  I wouldn't trust Amir's opinion on sound, only his test measurements.  

 

I'm surprised by the number of "data deniers" in this thread, some saying they prefer "just listening to music."  You can do both.  Attending to the technical can only make your enjoyment of the music better.  Such as by eliminating distortion artifacts, especially with analog media, such as vinyl.  (For cartridge & turntable science, note the 2nd edition of "Better Sound from your Phonograph" is out.)

So another of the ASR minions chirps off.

No one is denying data just that there are intangibles in audio also. Data is not the final determining factor. Also bad data, poorly executed measurements are meaningless. 

Must be repeatable and verifiable when it comes to measurements.

 

 

rcaguy

2 posts

11-08-2022 at 02:36pm 

I'm surprised by the number of "data deniers" in this thread, some saying they prefer "just listening to music."  You can do both.  Attending to the technical can only make your enjoyment of the music better.  Such as by eliminating distortion artifacts, especially with analog media, such as vinyl.  (For cartridge & turntable science, note the 2nd edition of "Better Sound from your Phonograph" is out.)

@rcaguy Welcome to Audiogon.  I read both of your new posts and thought they are well thought out.  Having both the expertise and equipment to make meaningful measurements to supplement your listening to a piece of equipment being considered for purchase is commendable. As you stated:

And for decades my policy was not to buy anything that did not publish meaningful technical specifications that were the minimum performance a buyer could expect.

For example, there was thread not too long ago which described that a tube amplifier from a well-known designer produced far less than its stated watts per channel and in fact the size of the transformer could not possibly produce its stated WPC.  Your testing might have caught this prior to purchase. 

I have been a member here a long time and can tell you that there will be a lot of members who will find that the criticism hurled at you above is totally unwarranted.