Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

If you are putting yourself out there as an expert I think it takes more than just a microphone and a computer. If @amir_asr

@kota1 : let’s be fair here, Sir Armir’s AP testing equipment alone is several times more expensive than your entire system. Everything sounds fabulous through it. Who listens to music nowadays. So 20th century. You measure. And enjoy the signal. Those graphs give you goosebumps 🤭 (I wanted to say “a hard on “ but I refrained)

I searched the Revel speaker site for measurements of any of their speakers and could not find any. Revels are universally lauded for their exceptional reviewed measurements. Lack of published manufacturer measurements is true for nearly every speaker manufacturer I’ve searched for on line, perhaps several hundred.

Here you go @fleschler

https://www.vandersteen.com/media/files/KENTO%20Step%20Response.pdf

I suppose that we can talk about whether that is important or not.

@kota1 You are so right!

  If you are putting yourself out there as an expert I think it takes more than just a microphone and a computer. If @amir_asr posts something (anything) let's see if he can walk, or if all he does is talk (spitball):

@thyname 

@kota1 : let’s be fair here, Sir Armir’s AP testing equipment alone is several times more expensive than your entire system. Everything sounds fabulous through it. Who listens to music nowadays. So 20th century. You measure. And enjoy the signal. Those graphs give you goosebumps 🤭 (I wanted to say “a hard on “ but I refrained)

Who listens to music these days?  Apparently not folks here who are having anxiety if their power cables are letting in enough air.  Or whether their systems are broken in. Rest of us enjoy our systems without such worries. 

As to graphs, the only person demanding graphs right now BTW is @kota1.  And OP made an attempt to get some for his cables but seems he didn't really want that either.

As to my system, it sounds great because that is what my ears tell me.  What business of yours to challenge my ears?  The main thing it is missing right now is air.  Lots of air.  As soon as one of you can convince me that one of your tweaks takes care of that business, that will be remedied as well.

it sounds great because that is what my ears tell me

Verified by perpetual blind tests I presume?

The main thing it is missing right now is air. Lots of air. As soon as one of you can convince me that one of your tweaks takes care of that business, that will be remedied as well.

Somehow, posts like this make me wonder whether THE Amir account has been hacked by a 10-14 years old dude

@amir_asr I’m demanding graphs AND posting graphs, so where are yours? Let me know if you need help, NP. As for what your system sounds like that is up to you to know, I want to see what it looks like, please post, thanks.

Has the Kota stumped (embarrassed) you? I am detecting air from your direction, HOT air, lots and lots of hot air :).

If you don’t reply I gotta give the W to Audiogon Forum, we whipped the ASR champ in measurements!! Not bad. There is still another round, you just gotta answer the bell, ready, set, post the pics of your system, the components, and the FR measurements of your room...

Alternatively you can throw in the towel and it is Audiogon Forum 1, ASR 0 and we take the measurement/system title.

You still are a champ though... of air, HOT air, lots and lots of just hot air.

@invalid 

Verified by perpetual blind tests I presume?

Not at all. I thought you all didn't believe in that.  I am just trying to fit in....

@kota1 

@amir_asr I’m demanding graphs AND posting graphs, so where are yours?

I have not seen a single measurement from you regarding topic of this thread: cables.  As for me, you didn't ask me or I would be happy to post a ton:

Here is the Nordost Tyr 2 Coax cable: 

And comparison to generic cable:

 Belden Iconoclast cable: 

And null test with music:

Actual recordings are there in the review thread if you want to take a listen and see if you can tell the difference.

You can see a lot more reviews/measurements here: 

Audio Cable Reviews

You have anything like this?  If not, why not?  How can you demand measurements when you don't care about such measurements?

Verified by perpetual blind tests I presume?

Not at all. I thought you all didn't believe in that.  I am just trying to fit in....

@Amir ASR this was not my post

@amir_asr , if you don’t post pics, your components, and FR of your room Audiogon Forum is still the system/measurement champ. I told you, I already posted the specs of my cables earlier in this thread. This shouldn’t be difficult to at least answer the bell. Is ASR going to throw in the towel? If so no one on this forum will be surprised but what will the ASR members reading this think? If the reason you can't post anything is you aren't happy with your results feel free to start a new thread here, we have amazing members.

Nice try on the bait and switch....and I still detect lots of air coming from your direction, HOT air.

@holmz it was a reference to Revel not Vandys. 

@holmz it was a reference to Revel not Vandys

^true^ but he said:

Lack of published manufacturer measurements is true for nearly every speaker manufacturer I’ve searched for on line, perhaps several hundred.

… so there is at least one that takes some pride in the measurements.

But 1 out of several hundred does say something.

@juanmanuelfangioii 

@holmz it was a reference to Revel not Vandys. 

Harman (Revel/JBL) engineering loves to release the detailed measurements but their marketing department thinks that will be too confusing for customers to understand.  Fortunately the engineering team has leaked a boatload of them and someone online has organized them for you (NOT me):

@kota1

I told you, I already posted the specs of my cables earlier in this thread.

Specs or measurements?  I went back to page 1 and you said this:

@fleschler , if I had budget I would use Mapleshade XLR's throughout the whole system but with roughly 11 active speakers and long runs for height channels and surrounds, not gonna happen.

You have measurements for this Mapleshade cable?  How about for these claims they make on their home page:

• Lift all speaker, power, and interconnect wires 8" off any carpet or plastic tile. Use string, wood, cardboard, or 20 ounce Styrofoam cups for temporary props. You’ll think you’ve pulled horse blankets off your speakers. For a more civilized-looking solution

You have done this and have before and after measurements of your system?

How about this:

NEVER use speaker cables shorter than 8'. Amazingly, 4' sounds much worse than 8'. Contrary to common belief, shorter interconnects (2 m or less) and longer speaker cables always sound WAY BETTER than the opposite—based on extensive head-to-head tests.

You have measurements to back this? 

To improve high end cables, remove any outer nylon mesh: the bad dielectric only adds grunge. Remove any metal barrels on RCA plugs—you lose the locking feature and gain transparency.

Anyone done this here and has measurements to back before and after results?

Then there is this:

Any cable with a molded-in ferrite (the small plastic-covered cylinder at one or both ends) sounds way better with the ferrite removed. 

This is your favorite cable, right?  Where are the measurements to back your choice of this cable? 

Let's get this cable topic settled and them I am happy to discuss your room measurements.  Until then it sure looks like you want to change the topic.

@holmz 

… so there is at least one that takes some pride in the measurements.

Sadly those measurements are gated/in-room and as such, have no low frequency resolution to speak of.  Notice how the X axis starts at 700 Hz.  Things like cabinet/port resonances are just not seen with that kind of measurement  I am also pretty sure the response above that region is also smoothed and is not raw.  For a company their size, they should get proper anechoic measurements for their speakers.

@amir_asr was adressing @holmz post and really could care less about Revel. I am a QLN guy and that is that. I also do not go to your site or care much for the opinions posted there, by you or your membership.

Cheers. 

☝👍👍

@amir_asr , you are spit balling again, nice try on another bait and switch. You didn’t post your system, pics and in room FR graph, just more air, HOT air. If you have questions about my system see the profile.

Audiogon Forum 1 and ASR 0 (failed to answer the bell)

Is anyone surprised that @amir_asr is unwilling/unable to post his own system? It is curious.

@juanmanuelfangioii 

@amir_asr was adressing @holmz post and really could care less about Revel. I am a QLN guy and that is that. I also do not go to your site or care much for the opinions posted there, by you or your membership.

That's cool.  I post a respond to you because you specifically commented that measurements for Revel speakers were missing.  I post a link to a third-party site with said information, not mine so don't know why you are complaining.  When I post something, it is for everyone to read anyway, and not just you.

@kota1 

@amir_asr , you are spit balling again, nice try on another bait and switch.

Look above this post.  Keep going.  All the way to the top where you see the OP thread starter.  It is specifically about cables and measurements for them.  There is not a word about my system, room measurements, etc.  So the only bait and switch is yours.

Regardless, I said that I will engage you with your topic as long as we are done with this discussion about cables and measurements.  Please confirm that you do not have any measurements for the cables you are promoting.  And that you have no interest in finding measurements for them.  That your claim of "blind" testing was without value. 

Once we conclude this thread then we can engage in the one you are dying to change the topic to.

@kota1 

or

I see you post Mike Lavigne's system.  I have listened to it on two occasions.  Have you?  Do you know that if you ask him for measurements of his room or his system he will throw you out the room?  I suggest not referencing him if you want to go down the path of measurements of anything related to audio.

@amir_asr was not complaining like I said could care less about Revel. I also commented on @holmz post that he posted Vandy numbers. Get it right.

I also will bet that Mikes room sounds 10,000 times better than yours!

@jerryg123 

I also will bet that Mikes room sounds 10,000 times better than yours!

So you don't need your ears to determine this?  Just your eyes?

holmz 

… so there is at least one that takes some pride in the measurements.

Sadly those measurements are gated/in-room and as such, have no low frequency resolution to speak of. 

Ok - many people have read the Toole and Olive… While FR is important, it can be corrected with a DSP, but time domain response is not so easy.
Radiation pattern is also not correctable after the fact.  

Notice how the X axis starts at 700 Hz.  Things like cabinet/port resonances are just not seen with that kind of measurement  I am also pretty sure the response above that region is also smoothed and is not raw. 

They are not ported.

If you look at the waterfall along side the impedance plots, there are not hiccups indicating resonances.

I suppose we can bitch about it, but the 1 out of a few hundred should not be whom should attracts the bitching. It should be Revel or or the other “few hundred”.

For a company their size, they should get proper anechoic measurements for their speakers

B.S. @amir_asr 
There is no dishonour in gated measurements… I think even Klipple uses gated measurements.

Do not make out like only Harmon and JBL have a chamber, That could be perceived as being a shill to your old people. 

@fleschler original post may have been taking more of a dig at you than a serious question about manufactures supplying information, but I am trying to stick to the question without adding in his intent.

Not what I said @amir_asr I said I bet. I did not definitively state that it did, However based on the images of Mikes room and your room, I think it is a safe bet.

Now just go away you are annoying and I am not joining your cult.

Is anyone surprised that @amir_asr is unwilling/unable to post his own system? It is curious.

You are like a broken record.

I've been to Mikes three times, including one solo visit. Mike's room is so good my first time I sensed it just walking in the door. Then walking around taking it all in the sights and the sounds this sense of acoustic bliss grew and grew. At one point during the first visit with someone else in the sweet spot I took the opportunity to stroll around checking out the sound from lots of different places. Growing more and more impressed, finally I went right into a corner. Try this some time. Very hard to not have boomy bass in a corner. Nothing. Nada.

Looking around it was apparent even before Mike explained anything that he had some false walls and storage hiding bass traps. The openings were nicely covered in fabric making them appear as if they are not there at all.

If the traps are hidden the diffusers and absorption panels are not. The whole room was professionally designed, and then refined and perfected by Mike making countless improvements over the years. The result is the most perfect acoustic space I have ever heard. 

Just outside Mike's listening room is a very nicely stocked wet bar. This is where I discovered the most delicious whiskey of all time, Angel's Envy Finished Rye. About the only thing more delicious than that is when Mike put his dubbed master tape of Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here on the Studer.

In short, it is hard to think of anything more disastrously credibility destroying than to criticize Mike's room, or hospitality. 

There is no dishonour in gated measurements… I think even Klipple uses gated measurements.

That is true but not in the manner you are thinking.  Gated measurements are used in Klippel for higher frequencies (usually above 1 kHz -- it is a  user setting).  Lower are generated using field separation giving you very high resolution down to 20 Hz (or even lower) -- something any reasonable sized anechoic chamber can't do.

@holmz That maybe, but it is a factual statement you cannot argue. People who live in glass houses…

@millercarbon 

In short, it is hard to think of anything more disastrously credibility destroying than to criticize Mike's room, or hospitality. 

You are completely out of line with that comment.  Mike's hospitality was very much appreciated and not remotely questioned.  Please don't create fights with such falsehoods.  

As to your observations of sitting in corner and such, I am not aware of your listening skills.  I do know that my experience in non-optimal location was not good.  Here is my extensive write-up of one of my visits to his room: 

"I initially sat on the second room to the left. That is behind the sweet listening chair visible in the above picture.

I must say that experience was pretty disappointing. The sound was dull and uninteresting. Try as I might, I could not get excited or understand why people come back with superlatives to describe the sound in Mike's room. There was little soundstage, highs were muffled, bass rather dry but not blended in well, etc. On scale 1 to 10, I would give it 4.

We were taking turns to sit in the rolling center chair. I got my chance after 15 minutes or so and boy did that transform the experience. There was a precise depth to the soundstage with pretty high isolation of instruments. Highs came back to life and bass become very supportive. I did not want to hog the chair too long and gave it up to others."

Anyway, none of his has anything to do with my post.  I was merely mentioning that in a thread dedicated to measurements and fellow demanding room measurements, you don't go and post about Mike system.  And any comment about his sound relative to mine without listening or measurements, says you have substituted your eyes for your ears.

"Do not make out like only Harmon and JBL have a chamber, That could be perceived as being a shill to your old people. "

I am not a shill for any company.  Companies don't need anechoic chambers.  They can simply rent space in one or get Klippel to measure it for them.  The cost is less than $2,000 for a speaker.  If a company can't afford to do this, or can't be bothered, it is not going to get my support.  It is one thing for a DIY to not afford such fees, it is entirely different matter for a major company.

Note also that we are not not just looking for a few simple measurements.  We want full CEA-2034 plus distortion measurements.  A few gated measurements are not going to do it.

Please take your deflated balls and go home.

@amir_asr , the title of this thread is not cables anything. The title is about manufacturers and measurements right? I posted the specs of the cables I list in my virtual system because it got right to the point of the OP, that’s it. You shared how to do a blind test, I shared that I did one as you mentioned. It was a response to your suggestion about switching cables as a friend helps, that’s it. Now, if you go back you stated I made a mistake (in bold, like you were shouting)

That is where this went off the rails, you never heard my system, never tried these cables, etc.

Now, as this thread IS about measurements after all, let’s go there OK? I am willing to give you a rematch, NP. So far you have failed to answer the bell and posted nothing about your own system. I offered to help, encouraged you to start a thread if your aren’t happy with something.

As for @mikelavigne he was nice enough to contribute to a thread I started about end game systems. That thread wasn’t about measurements OK?

So, your hot air is still blowing, get on with it already, post something about your system.

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

If you want a rematch in a new thread start it, NP.

This is the thread I started I met @mikelavigne in, feel free to join the party:

@kota1 

@amir_asr , the title of this thread is not cables anything. The title is about manufacturers and measurements right? I posted the specs of the cables I list in my virtual system because it got right to the point of the OP, that’s it.

This is the title of the thread:

Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

Before I showed up on page one, you all started to talk about cables.  Hence my questions to you.  You have not posted anything about the cables you say you fell in love with.

Nothing in the thread title is about in-room measurements of people. Nor are the members here showing any interest in such measurements.  As I said, create a new thread and see if there is interest in it.  If there is, and you have something worthwhile to say that is not just noise like these posts, then I will engage.  Until then, we are discussing manufacturers and why they don't post measurements.

As for @mikelavigne he was nice enough to contribute to a thread I started about end game systems. That thread wasn’t about measurements OK?

You post it here in the context of measurements.  And your demands that I show in-room measurements of mine.  You showed no interest in his room measurements so clearly letting your eyes judge his system.  As such, you are a prime target for marketing department of audio companies.  They love non-critical people who go by looks than objective performance or controlled subjective listening.

That is true but not in the manner you are thinking. Gated measurements are used in Klippel for higher frequencies (usually above 1 kHz -- it is a user setting). Lower are generated using field separation giving you very high resolution down to 20 Hz (or even lower) -- something any reasonable sized anechoic chamber can’t do

1. The FR was shown through the research to comport with listener preference.
   1. In a bare 2 channel set up without any DSP (As in pure, or bare, or whatever we want to call it)… then FR is important.
   2. In a DSP system, FR loses importance.
2. Directivity preference varies, but the content of the in and off axis is important to the preference of liking it.
3. The actual time domain “polarity” was deemed to be not strongly statistically important. But some people seem to notice it.
4. As we know the waterfall shows the FR as well as cabinet ringing.
5. Then the distortion seems to be tolerated in low frequencies and in terms of HD, but not very tolerated with FM and IMD.
   1. Many people do not seem to care about driver distortions and linearity.

I’ll admit I like #3, and I like low distortion drivers (#5).
I cannot imagine a preference for high cabinet ringing and high distortion… but if the O/96 speakers are that, then I can see why people like them.

We may have a problem with the wrong measurements, or with maybe the frequency not extending as low as we would like… but IMO it is more of a problem that most speakers have no measurements. And also all the boutique power cords, IC, and speaker cables have no measurements or specs.

The ones that do have measurements are generally pretty well liked stuff, Mogami, Cardis and other bales and ICs. And Genelec, Dutch-n-Dutch, Bouchard, etc.

However; this thread either started off as an attack on specs, measurements, ASR, or you… it could have been some spreadsheet of what have measurements, and how well the gear is liked to see if there are any correlations… But alas, it is not that.

well… you and I are sticking to the “manufacturers and why they don’t post measurements”.
 

I am not a shill for any company. 

^Agree^, I just did not want it perceived as being a shill.

Companies don't need anechoic chambers.  They can simply rent space in one or get Klippel to measure it for them.  The cost is less than $2,000 for a speaker.  If a company can't afford to do this, or can't be bothered, it is not going to get my support.  It is one thing for a DIY to not afford such fees, it is entirely different matter for a major company.

That is true for R&D maybe. But they might need some chamber or way to maintain QA.

Note also that we are not not just looking for a few simple measurements.  We want full CEA-2034 plus distortion measurements.  A few gated measurements are not going to do it.

Agree.
 

@amir_asr

 

Thanks coach. Do you hold classes on this everyday or every other?

My dog is a big believer in yoga by the way

I imagine canine Majidimehr is a more capable student than human Majidimehr. And better at dog pose. But I notice you practice the twist poses frequently. Which is your favourite?

Before I showed up on page one, you all started to talk about cables.

Don’t you mean "you people"?

Don't you mean "you people"?

Not everything living under a bridge are considered people.

@holmz 

Not everything living under a bridge are considered people.

Now now, I said human Majidimehr. I like to keep it civil.

Says the last surviving Billy Goat Gruff.

@axo1989 

I imagine canine Majidimehr is a more capable student than human Majidimehr. 

I read him your post and this was his reaction:

@jerryg123 

Please take your deflated balls and go home.

Who cares? Listen, and decide if you like it in your system. Life is too short 

@amir_asr , this is what you said to do:

I explained how you do that in the video. Setup your system such that you don’t know which cable is used (cover/hide it). Then have a loved one randomly switch one cable for the other. You keep score of which is which as does the person doing the switching for you. Do this 10 times and see if you can correctly identify one cable at least 8 times.

This is my reply:

@amir_asr , OK, thanks for sharing. The last time I did the test you just posted was when I auditioned a Mapleshade Digital Interconnect I had for a 30 day trial (about $250). After about 100 hrs of break in I "blind tested" it with my current cable and it was MUCH better so I kept it.

I did your test, that’s it. This was a reply to you, not the OP.

This thread isn’t about blind testing yet here you are demanding it and then were rude in your reply, how can you get a blind test wrong, you hear what you hear.

This is another bait and switch tactic from someone who is unable to walk the measurement and system walk when it comes to himself. As far as anyone in this thread can see all you have is just more hot air, on and on. Please prove me wrong and post something ok?

Still waiting......🙄

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

Not fair. I would give ASR a lot more zeroes.

@kota1 

This thread isn’t about blind testing yet here you are demanding it and then were rude in your reply, how can you get a blind test wrong, you hear what you hear.

Again, I explain this in the video I posted earlier. A single trial like you performed means nothing.  You could imagine there is a difference and get lucky by pointing to one product you prefer.  It is only true repetition and randomization that we can tell you consistently can find the same attribute.

If you run the test only once and guess "right," there is still 50% chance it was a lucky test.  You need to repeat the test and get enough right that probability of guessing shrinks down to less than 5% (p<0.05).  If the results are obvious to you, then you should grind that down to 0%.  For 10 trials, this requires at least 8 correct guesses. 

As to why we are talking about blind tests, folks said they had no use for measurements.  I am perfectly fine with that.  Use your ears instead and show that you can reliably tell the difference beyond lucky guesses.  Do it with your system, your content and as much time as you want to take.  Not an onerous ask. 

Remember, instrumentation shows that what reaches your ear is no different due to these cable differences.  This is why we insist on proper protocol to make sure the improbable thing you say is really there.  You understand this, right?

@kota1 

This is another bait and switch tactic from someone who is unable to walk the measurement and system walk when it comes to himself. 

Once more, this thread is about audio system measurements from manufacturers.  If you have nothing else to say on this topic, then that is that.  Changing the topic to my system, my room measurements, etc. has zero to do with the topic at hand.

And so far, I am the only one posting measurements.  You have post nothing.  Not even about your favorite topic (your room measurements).

@amir_asr 

I read him your post and this was his reaction

What a sweetie! You didn't make him wear that hat did you? No wonder he's poking his tongue at you.

I am a dog guy @amir_asr just not a one to listen to shills, and liars that hide behind alleged science.

So sad and pathetic.

If you listened to 2 amps and liked one better but found out the specs on the one you didn't like were better would it change your decision?

If you listened to 2 amps and liked one better but found out the specs on the one you didn't like were better would it change your decision?

Absurd question. The amp the measures better will sound better. By definition. You are doing it wrong. Here is how to do it the right way: Take measurements on both amps (or read ASR measurements). Only listen to the amp that measures better. Return the other amp. Go with science