Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

@amir_asr , you raise an interesting point about risk. As you are a dealer I respect the fact you might not like when a manufacturer or dealer assumes all the risk in a transaction by offering a 30 or 60 day return policy. The manufacturer or dealer likely feels the return rates are low enough that the policy is profitable since it attracts new customers that otherwise might not try their products..

As a customer I prefer to deal with these types of companies, YMMV.

I have added my main listening room components and front and back walls of that room. I have a small amount of reverb, corner echo which the center cloth absorber eliminated. My room isn’t as near perfect like the two @Kota 1 examples show but it’s pretty close.  I feel sorry for Mike for letting Amir in.  In all of the systems I've heard, no one wanted to give me measurements of their room/system/performance and I didn't ask them either.  No one cares, only Amir/ASR members.  Mike is too nice.  

Amir is so full of it... I tried six digital cables and they all sounded very different. Not just to me, but to five other listeners, two golden ear friends. My wife who is not an audiophile but has a very keen sense of sound gave me her comments. The SR Atmosphere X Euphoria was the obviously best cable with no apparent colorations/neutral sounding, bested or equaled all other cables in every sonic aspect. Well worth the money/$1500. However, Grover Huffman’s very inexpensive digital cables $200? are quite good and came in second, mostly lacking in depth, it’s forward sounding. For $10, Monster Cable’s digital cable was rather bland but neutral, lacking dynamics mostly, okay resolution and okay, not great ambiance/depth/width perseption.

@kota1 

@amir_asr , I did the "blind test" as you posted, that’s it. The $250 is refundable, no risk:

Folks sell ointments online to grow hair with money back guarantee.  That doesn't mean I am going to go and buy them to try and I hope you are not either.  They are hoping that you procrastinate and get stuck with the thing whether it performs or not.  It is the oldest trick in the book for mail order/online selling.  

And it is not free either.  You are not only responsible for return shipping, you must also insure it and go through the hassle of boxing and sending it back.  On top of that, they could complain about it not getting to them, being damaged, etc.:

" We strongly encourage customers to send product returns using a shipping method that is both trackable and fully insured.   It is your responsibility to ensure the returned item arrives to us undamaged.  Mapleshade will not accept responsibility for returned items that are lost or damaged during shipping.  Once received, we will process your return promptly.  Then we will issue your refund or credit -- or ship your exchange item as has been prearranged."

Really, stop acting as PR person for companies and start to advocate for consumer rights here.  Demand that they provide measurements of two audio gear, one with their cable and one with a generic one.  See if the output of your audio system actually changes.  Don't fall for empty claims for the cable.  You don't stick a digital cable into your ear and listen.  You listen to the output of your system. 

And to be clear, there is no way, no how that digital cable improves the sound of your system -- with or without break in.  I will donate $1,000 to your favorite charity if you can properly demonstrate otherwise.

@jerryg123 

I am a dog guy @amir_asr just not a one to listen to shills, and liars that hide behind alleged science.

So sad and pathetic.

Why is it that people who have least amount of familiarity with audio science the ones that judge others to not have any such knowledge?  If I asked you how many research papers you have read the answer would be close to zero, right? If I asked you if you have any professional experience in audio, the answer would be zero, right?  If I asked you if you have ever had a mentor who knows audio science, the answer would be zero, right?

Why do you do this?  I answer: because audio science doesn't agree with what you have taught yourself from random individuals online, or improperly conducted listening test evaluations.  Show some emotional maturity in this regard.  Most of equipment I test at ASR forum come from members.  Out of the entire set of what I test, I only recommend about 1/3 of it.  The rest just don't perform.  Yet the people who send them to me are still happy to have done so and like the fact that they finally have some reliable data about their gear.  The move on with optimizing their system that way and routinely wind up with more performance at much less cost.

As to absolutes on interconnect cable design.  During the past several decades, GroverHuffman cables has removed metal casings and replaced them with high quality plastic casings with excellent contact areas for soldering.  No ferrites ever used.  His speaker wire is not limited by short lengths.  I am using his 6' cables on my video and second audio system and 16' (former home-30') lengths on the main system.  The cables are not test measured for these aspects.  They just sound better.  There is nothing wrong with using multiple ears (now 1000's of sales) to confirm the results of the advancements in his cabling.  

@amir_asr , I did the "blind test" as you posted, that’s it. The $250 is refundable, no risk:

https://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Exchanges-Returns_ep_41-1.html

So, I already posted the specs for the interconnects listed in my virtual profile, along with my active speakers.

Here is the testing data for my Auralex Geofusors:

https://auralex.com/diffusion-testing-data-geofusor-tfusor/

and the specs:

https://auralex.com/content/productdocuments/GeoFusor_ProductDocumentation.pdf

Aurlalex is pretty good about posting specs.

All we get from you is more hot air....

Still waiting...🙄

Wow, a lot's been going on since I've been on.  @holmz  Fantastic measurements of the the Kento Carbon speaker which received glowing reviews.  $40K is near my max to spend on speakers.  I've got to hear them.  Thanks!

I find it fun,educational and amusing learning about gear but you can get lost in all the variables that come into play. Keep it simple stupid applies to audio ultimatly Ears carry the day.

And where are the specs for that Mapbleshade Digital Interconnect again @kota1?

@kota1 

BTW, it is not "we" talking about blind tests. When it came to the topic of cables I posted specs of the cables listed in my profile which is exactly the topic of this thread, a manufacturer listing measurements. I never said I "blind tested" them.

You didn't?  What was this then on page 6: 

@amir_asr , OK, thanks for sharing. The last time I did the test you just posted was when I auditioned a Mapleshade Digital Interconnect I had for a 30 day trial (about $250). After about 100 hrs of break in I "blind tested" it with my current cable and it was MUCH better so I kept it.

$250 is a lot of money to not know, or want to know if the thing really has an audible effect.

@kota1 

@amir_asr , I followed your instructions about having a friend switch cables to the letter, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say single trial, you said guess which cable is better 8 out of 10 times, I did that, duh.

Hmmm.  How did this test move from past to present?  Your claim of 100 hour burn-in was before we interacted at all.  Your original story about you liking that cable better said nothing about repeating the test, much less 8 out of 10 times.  You even wondered why I was asking you this.  Now all of a sudden that is what you did???

No worries.  Do you know how to shoot a video on your phone?  If not, get some help and redo the whole test so that we can see and observe.  And *please* watch the video I post on things you need to be careful of to generate reliable results.

@dustyb123 

If you listened to 2 amps and liked one better but found out the specs on the one you didn't like were better would it change your decision?

It must not as long as a) you only used your ears and repeated the test a few times to make sure you are right and b) your listening tests were comprehensive enough to cover limitations of the amp.  For example, if you listen at low volumes, the amp may be fine but once you crank it up, it heavily distorts -- something the measurements show you.

Bottom line: listening test are the gold standard.  Just do them right.  That's all.

@mitch2 , the system in your profile looks great, "he shoots, he scores" would apply here, no foul.

Thanks for posting it.

Recidivism.

@mitch2 @melvinjames @amir_asr 

Is this the 3rd or 4th now? So many nasty comments. Is it any wonder why the audiophile community at large is bleeding members?

If a manufacturer thinks their customers care about measurements, they are more likely to publish meaningful ones. Otherwise, they can do whatever they want. Pretty sure these things are not regulated? Why? Because most listeners could care less about measurements and those that do will conduct their own business appropriately.

Personally, I am a technical guy by profession…an engineer. I am a fan of good quality useful measurements. I create and use them all them all the time to help make informed decisions. It’s not something a lot of people are very good at. Most consumers only care about the most fundamental measurements to determine if a product will work to meet the intended use. The things that determine if a product complies with some common standard, for example. Most have no clue even about that and need someone to help.

My opinion regarding measurements and good sound: Good measurements applied well = good sound faster. It takes some smarts and experience to be able to navigate the world of technical measurements properly. Measurements are a means to an end. The end may or may not measure well, but still might be determined to sound good because that is a subjective determination. I can’t spec out what sounds good to me but I know it when I hear it and measurements probably played some role along the way. Most likely.

My recommendation: avoid extreme positions like measurements don’t matter or if it does not measure well it can’t sound good. Good sound is a subjection determination. Learn to use  measurements wisely if you are inclined to even care about such things. 

@melvinjames +1

Not unlike missing a shot at one end and then running down court and committing a foul at the other end out of frustration.

So, all this venom being spit at Amir is because of what??? Oh, I remember how it all started, @fleschler was banned from ASR and his feelings got hurt. Insulted his subjective opinion wasn't taken seriously on a measurement-oriented objectivist site he started a thread here. Is this the 3rd or 4th now? So many nasty comments. Is it any wonder why the audiophile community at large is bleeding members?

@amir_asr , I followed your instructions about having a friend switch cables to the letter, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say single trial, you said guess which cable is better 8 out of 10 times, I did that, duh.

BTW, it is not "we" talking about blind tests. When it came to the topic of cables I posted specs of the cables listed in my profile which is exactly the topic of this thread, a manufacturer listing measurements. I never said I "blind tested" them.

As for proper instrumentation you are joking right? You still haven’t posted anything about your system.

Still waiting....🙄

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 00000000

If you listened to 2 amps and liked one better but found out the specs on the one you didn't like were better would it change your decision?

Absurd question. The amp the measures better will sound better. By definition. You are doing it wrong. Here is how to do it the right way: Take measurements on both amps (or read ASR measurements). Only listen to the amp that measures better. Return the other amp. Go with science 

If you listened to 2 amps and liked one better but found out the specs on the one you didn't like were better would it change your decision?

I am a dog guy @amir_asr just not a one to listen to shills, and liars that hide behind alleged science.

So sad and pathetic.

@amir_asr 

I read him your post and this was his reaction

What a sweetie! You didn't make him wear that hat did you? No wonder he's poking his tongue at you.

@kota1 

This is another bait and switch tactic from someone who is unable to walk the measurement and system walk when it comes to himself. 

Once more, this thread is about audio system measurements from manufacturers.  If you have nothing else to say on this topic, then that is that.  Changing the topic to my system, my room measurements, etc. has zero to do with the topic at hand.

And so far, I am the only one posting measurements.  You have post nothing.  Not even about your favorite topic (your room measurements).

@kota1 

This thread isn’t about blind testing yet here you are demanding it and then were rude in your reply, how can you get a blind test wrong, you hear what you hear.

Again, I explain this in the video I posted earlier. A single trial like you performed means nothing.  You could imagine there is a difference and get lucky by pointing to one product you prefer.  It is only true repetition and randomization that we can tell you consistently can find the same attribute.

If you run the test only once and guess "right," there is still 50% chance it was a lucky test.  You need to repeat the test and get enough right that probability of guessing shrinks down to less than 5% (p<0.05).  If the results are obvious to you, then you should grind that down to 0%.  For 10 trials, this requires at least 8 correct guesses. 

As to why we are talking about blind tests, folks said they had no use for measurements.  I am perfectly fine with that.  Use your ears instead and show that you can reliably tell the difference beyond lucky guesses.  Do it with your system, your content and as much time as you want to take.  Not an onerous ask. 

Remember, instrumentation shows that what reaches your ear is no different due to these cable differences.  This is why we insist on proper protocol to make sure the improbable thing you say is really there.  You understand this, right?

Not fair. I would give ASR a lot more zeroes.

@amir_asr , this is what you said to do:

I explained how you do that in the video. Setup your system such that you don’t know which cable is used (cover/hide it). Then have a loved one randomly switch one cable for the other. You keep score of which is which as does the person doing the switching for you. Do this 10 times and see if you can correctly identify one cable at least 8 times.

This is my reply:

@amir_asr , OK, thanks for sharing. The last time I did the test you just posted was when I auditioned a Mapleshade Digital Interconnect I had for a 30 day trial (about $250). After about 100 hrs of break in I "blind tested" it with my current cable and it was MUCH better so I kept it.

I did your test, that’s it. This was a reply to you, not the OP.

This thread isn’t about blind testing yet here you are demanding it and then were rude in your reply, how can you get a blind test wrong, you hear what you hear.

This is another bait and switch tactic from someone who is unable to walk the measurement and system walk when it comes to himself. As far as anyone in this thread can see all you have is just more hot air, on and on. Please prove me wrong and post something ok?

Still waiting......🙄

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

Who cares? Listen, and decide if you like it in your system. Life is too short 

@jerryg123 

Please take your deflated balls and go home.

@axo1989 

I imagine canine Majidimehr is a more capable student than human Majidimehr. 

I read him your post and this was his reaction:

Says the last surviving Billy Goat Gruff.

@holmz 

Not everything living under a bridge are considered people.

Now now, I said human Majidimehr. I like to keep it civil.

Don't you mean "you people"?

Not everything living under a bridge are considered people.

@amir_asr

 

Thanks coach. Do you hold classes on this everyday or every other?

My dog is a big believer in yoga by the way

I imagine canine Majidimehr is a more capable student than human Majidimehr. And better at dog pose. But I notice you practice the twist poses frequently. Which is your favourite?

Before I showed up on page one, you all started to talk about cables.

Don’t you mean "you people"?

That is true but not in the manner you are thinking. Gated measurements are used in Klippel for higher frequencies (usually above 1 kHz -- it is a user setting). Lower are generated using field separation giving you very high resolution down to 20 Hz (or even lower) -- something any reasonable sized anechoic chamber can’t do

1. The FR was shown through the research to comport with listener preference.
   1. In a bare 2 channel set up without any DSP (As in pure, or bare, or whatever we want to call it)… then FR is important.
   2. In a DSP system, FR loses importance.
2. Directivity preference varies, but the content of the in and off axis is important to the preference of liking it.
3. The actual time domain “polarity” was deemed to be not strongly statistically important. But some people seem to notice it.
4. As we know the waterfall shows the FR as well as cabinet ringing.
5. Then the distortion seems to be tolerated in low frequencies and in terms of HD, but not very tolerated with FM and IMD.
   1. Many people do not seem to care about driver distortions and linearity.

I’ll admit I like #3, and I like low distortion drivers (#5).
I cannot imagine a preference for high cabinet ringing and high distortion… but if the O/96 speakers are that, then I can see why people like them.

We may have a problem with the wrong measurements, or with maybe the frequency not extending as low as we would like… but IMO it is more of a problem that most speakers have no measurements. And also all the boutique power cords, IC, and speaker cables have no measurements or specs.

The ones that do have measurements are generally pretty well liked stuff, Mogami, Cardis and other bales and ICs. And Genelec, Dutch-n-Dutch, Bouchard, etc.

However; this thread either started off as an attack on specs, measurements, ASR, or you… it could have been some spreadsheet of what have measurements, and how well the gear is liked to see if there are any correlations… But alas, it is not that.

well… you and I are sticking to the “manufacturers and why they don’t post measurements”.
 

I am not a shill for any company. 

^Agree^, I just did not want it perceived as being a shill.

Companies don't need anechoic chambers.  They can simply rent space in one or get Klippel to measure it for them.  The cost is less than $2,000 for a speaker.  If a company can't afford to do this, or can't be bothered, it is not going to get my support.  It is one thing for a DIY to not afford such fees, it is entirely different matter for a major company.

That is true for R&D maybe. But they might need some chamber or way to maintain QA.

Note also that we are not not just looking for a few simple measurements.  We want full CEA-2034 plus distortion measurements.  A few gated measurements are not going to do it.

Agree.
 

@kota1 

@amir_asr , the title of this thread is not cables anything. The title is about manufacturers and measurements right? I posted the specs of the cables I list in my virtual system because it got right to the point of the OP, that’s it.

This is the title of the thread:

Nearly all manufacturers do not advertise/exhibit their product measurements? Why?

Before I showed up on page one, you all started to talk about cables.  Hence my questions to you.  You have not posted anything about the cables you say you fell in love with.

Nothing in the thread title is about in-room measurements of people. Nor are the members here showing any interest in such measurements.  As I said, create a new thread and see if there is interest in it.  If there is, and you have something worthwhile to say that is not just noise like these posts, then I will engage.  Until then, we are discussing manufacturers and why they don't post measurements.

As for @mikelavigne he was nice enough to contribute to a thread I started about end game systems. That thread wasn’t about measurements OK?

You post it here in the context of measurements.  And your demands that I show in-room measurements of mine.  You showed no interest in his room measurements so clearly letting your eyes judge his system.  As such, you are a prime target for marketing department of audio companies.  They love non-critical people who go by looks than objective performance or controlled subjective listening.

@amir_asr , the title of this thread is not cables anything. The title is about manufacturers and measurements right? I posted the specs of the cables I list in my virtual system because it got right to the point of the OP, that’s it. You shared how to do a blind test, I shared that I did one as you mentioned. It was a response to your suggestion about switching cables as a friend helps, that’s it. Now, if you go back you stated I made a mistake (in bold, like you were shouting)

That is where this went off the rails, you never heard my system, never tried these cables, etc.

Now, as this thread IS about measurements after all, let’s go there OK? I am willing to give you a rematch, NP. So far you have failed to answer the bell and posted nothing about your own system. I offered to help, encouraged you to start a thread if your aren’t happy with something.

As for @mikelavigne he was nice enough to contribute to a thread I started about end game systems. That thread wasn’t about measurements OK?

So, your hot air is still blowing, get on with it already, post something about your system.

Audiogon Forum 1- ASR 0

If you want a rematch in a new thread start it, NP.

This is the thread I started I met @mikelavigne in, feel free to join the party:

Please take your deflated balls and go home.

"Do not make out like only Harmon and JBL have a chamber, That could be perceived as being a shill to your old people. "

I am not a shill for any company.  Companies don't need anechoic chambers.  They can simply rent space in one or get Klippel to measure it for them.  The cost is less than $2,000 for a speaker.  If a company can't afford to do this, or can't be bothered, it is not going to get my support.  It is one thing for a DIY to not afford such fees, it is entirely different matter for a major company.

Note also that we are not not just looking for a few simple measurements.  We want full CEA-2034 plus distortion measurements.  A few gated measurements are not going to do it.

@millercarbon 

In short, it is hard to think of anything more disastrously credibility destroying than to criticize Mike's room, or hospitality. 

You are completely out of line with that comment.  Mike's hospitality was very much appreciated and not remotely questioned.  Please don't create fights with such falsehoods.  

As to your observations of sitting in corner and such, I am not aware of your listening skills.  I do know that my experience in non-optimal location was not good.  Here is my extensive write-up of one of my visits to his room: 

"I initially sat on the second room to the left. That is behind the sweet listening chair visible in the above picture.

I must say that experience was pretty disappointing. The sound was dull and uninteresting. Try as I might, I could not get excited or understand why people come back with superlatives to describe the sound in Mike's room. There was little soundstage, highs were muffled, bass rather dry but not blended in well, etc. On scale 1 to 10, I would give it 4.

We were taking turns to sit in the rolling center chair. I got my chance after 15 minutes or so and boy did that transform the experience. There was a precise depth to the soundstage with pretty high isolation of instruments. Highs came back to life and bass become very supportive. I did not want to hog the chair too long and gave it up to others."

Anyway, none of his has anything to do with my post.  I was merely mentioning that in a thread dedicated to measurements and fellow demanding room measurements, you don't go and post about Mike system.  And any comment about his sound relative to mine without listening or measurements, says you have substituted your eyes for your ears.

@holmz That maybe, but it is a factual statement you cannot argue. People who live in glass houses…

There is no dishonour in gated measurements… I think even Klipple uses gated measurements.

That is true but not in the manner you are thinking.  Gated measurements are used in Klippel for higher frequencies (usually above 1 kHz -- it is a  user setting).  Lower are generated using field separation giving you very high resolution down to 20 Hz (or even lower) -- something any reasonable sized anechoic chamber can't do.

I've been to Mikes three times, including one solo visit. Mike's room is so good my first time I sensed it just walking in the door. Then walking around taking it all in the sights and the sounds this sense of acoustic bliss grew and grew. At one point during the first visit with someone else in the sweet spot I took the opportunity to stroll around checking out the sound from lots of different places. Growing more and more impressed, finally I went right into a corner. Try this some time. Very hard to not have boomy bass in a corner. Nothing. Nada.

Looking around it was apparent even before Mike explained anything that he had some false walls and storage hiding bass traps. The openings were nicely covered in fabric making them appear as if they are not there at all.

If the traps are hidden the diffusers and absorption panels are not. The whole room was professionally designed, and then refined and perfected by Mike making countless improvements over the years. The result is the most perfect acoustic space I have ever heard. 

Just outside Mike's listening room is a very nicely stocked wet bar. This is where I discovered the most delicious whiskey of all time, Angel's Envy Finished Rye. About the only thing more delicious than that is when Mike put his dubbed master tape of Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here on the Studer.

In short, it is hard to think of anything more disastrously credibility destroying than to criticize Mike's room, or hospitality. 

Is anyone surprised that @amir_asr is unwilling/unable to post his own system? It is curious.

You are like a broken record.

Not what I said @amir_asr I said I bet. I did not definitively state that it did, However based on the images of Mikes room and your room, I think it is a safe bet.

Now just go away you are annoying and I am not joining your cult.

holmz 

… so there is at least one that takes some pride in the measurements.

Sadly those measurements are gated/in-room and as such, have no low frequency resolution to speak of. 

Ok - many people have read the Toole and Olive… While FR is important, it can be corrected with a DSP, but time domain response is not so easy.
Radiation pattern is also not correctable after the fact.  

Notice how the X axis starts at 700 Hz.  Things like cabinet/port resonances are just not seen with that kind of measurement  I am also pretty sure the response above that region is also smoothed and is not raw. 

They are not ported.

If you look at the waterfall along side the impedance plots, there are not hiccups indicating resonances.

I suppose we can bitch about it, but the 1 out of a few hundred should not be whom should attracts the bitching. It should be Revel or or the other “few hundred”.

For a company their size, they should get proper anechoic measurements for their speakers

B.S. @amir_asr 
There is no dishonour in gated measurements… I think even Klipple uses gated measurements.

Do not make out like only Harmon and JBL have a chamber, That could be perceived as being a shill to your old people. 

@fleschler original post may have been taking more of a dig at you than a serious question about manufactures supplying information, but I am trying to stick to the question without adding in his intent.

@jerryg123 

I also will bet that Mikes room sounds 10,000 times better than yours!

So you don't need your ears to determine this?  Just your eyes?

@amir_asr was not complaining like I said could care less about Revel. I also commented on @holmz post that he posted Vandy numbers. Get it right.

I also will bet that Mikes room sounds 10,000 times better than yours!

@kota1 

or

I see you post Mike Lavigne's system.  I have listened to it on two occasions.  Have you?  Do you know that if you ask him for measurements of his room or his system he will throw you out the room?  I suggest not referencing him if you want to go down the path of measurements of anything related to audio.

@kota1 

@amir_asr , you are spit balling again, nice try on another bait and switch.

Look above this post.  Keep going.  All the way to the top where you see the OP thread starter.  It is specifically about cables and measurements for them.  There is not a word about my system, room measurements, etc.  So the only bait and switch is yours.

Regardless, I said that I will engage you with your topic as long as we are done with this discussion about cables and measurements.  Please confirm that you do not have any measurements for the cables you are promoting.  And that you have no interest in finding measurements for them.  That your claim of "blind" testing was without value. 

Once we conclude this thread then we can engage in the one you are dying to change the topic to.

@juanmanuelfangioii 

@amir_asr was adressing @holmz post and really could care less about Revel. I am a QLN guy and that is that. I also do not go to your site or care much for the opinions posted there, by you or your membership.

That's cool.  I post a respond to you because you specifically commented that measurements for Revel speakers were missing.  I post a link to a third-party site with said information, not mine so don't know why you are complaining.  When I post something, it is for everyone to read anyway, and not just you.