@westcoastaudiophile No, I absolutely don’t believe that. After testing 100s of cables, I know for a fact on various systems, that the most expensive cables are often inferior (sounding). High Fidelity cables using large magnets in line is one of the worst examples just based on poor engineering (which I previously described one $1 million system owner who was dissatisfied as was I, until he changed from $105,000 in those cables to $3,500 in cables). I have no idea how the HF cables test/measure and I doubt anyone else does either.
You can view the non-proprietary construction of the GroverHuffman.com cables (older site, could use an update on materials) and his patent. His cables sell for $300s to $900, not $1000s or $10,000s. He loses potential customers because they don’t have the cachet of expensive, name brand cables. He has more than enough business (handmade) with a world-wide following.
A $35 Chinese made cable is going to cut corners no matter how one looks at it. In the commercial appraisal business one can offer cheap, fast and good quality work but only two, not three. I provided good quality (great quality) as fast as possible. Not cheap.
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@fleschler thanks for reply (again)! I still don’t see measurable performance metric you are looking for at manufacturer’s data, to name a few: loop resistance, loop inductance, EM shielding, flexibility, EOL, etc. in your reply I see price as only differentiator, even for the same manufacturer.
"A $35 Chinese made cable is going to cut corners no matter how one looks at it.” - what electrical spec is compromised?
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@coralkong
Put the multimeter down and try listening with your ears. You might be amazed at what you discover.
This is what irks me immensely. Why on earth do you weaponize one of the main things we have in common? The enjoyment of music? Do you really think we don't listen to music? That we don't use our "ears?" Why build cheap/false talking points like this? If you have a logical, technical argument, make it. But for heaven's sake, don't resort to cheap shots like this.
That aside, half of my reviews involve listening tests. That is about 150 reviews a year which dwarfs any other reviewers out there. And of course any audiophile. So don't tell me to listen. I do and I know the limitations of that task for evaluating audio gear.
And we all experience what you do: the falsity of changes that are not real. I have done AB tests of the cables sighted just like you do and reported those outcomes in reviews. They are worthless and I indicate it as such. And I note often how the cheap generic cable "sounded better."
So please, in this informed discussion, leave aside lines like this.
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@amir_asr , if you go back and look at my posts on ASR I felt the same way, you were flip and taking cheap shots. Now, I agree not to take shots about your listening skills, tin ears, etc. You need to agree not to take cheap shots about listening experiences of others, it is irksome both ways. I don't even want to bring up your toilet and fart jokes, ugh.
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@amir_asr "Do you really think we don’t listen to music?”using your own jargon, what “irks" me is a claim as you are able to distinguish in your listening tests between 0.001% and 0.005% THD sources, employing ~5% HD speakers, and unknown real load HD amp.
Many people here say as actual "A” SQ quality is better than “B”, even if setup “B” includes lil better measured standalone component, assuming integrated system performance. audio system to check should include actual components, interconnects, components match, and room acoustics.
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@westcoastaudiophile +10 Even his own member Mr. Hooper/Prof chooses and inferior distortion unit A over superb measuring unit B component (CJ versus Benchmark L4) for it’s possibly easier to listen or enjoy in his system. Personally, I think that is quite an extreme example of difference in sound, like the difference between the COS Engineering DV1v and DV2v DACs. Different presentation of music. (The latter two probably measure nearly the same though, they are so similar in construction, just D1v has twice the parts power section and chip count).
I could tell a CJ pre-amp or amp from super clean measuring solid state units, but not .0001% versus .0005% distortion. Not even .1% from .0005% or probably 1% at 1Khz from .0005% at 100 db.
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As for the topic of "blind testing" it just isn’t necessary or practical. Look, I drop a component in the rack and let it break in for a few weeks. I take it out before the 30 day return period expires. If I can’t tell a difference send it back. If my face freezes in "grinrictus" I leave it in. The people who argue about blind testing are just using it as a crutch to win an argument.
Well even in medicine the use oof blind/double-blind testing is standard.
So the witch doctor can cure quite a bit.
these stories have almost practical way to repeat themselves. How would Flescher’s neighbour know whether one needs a power cable or IC or fuse? It becomes a mishmash or trail and error to arrive at some nirvana, and it is not even clear that the sound is ni fact changed or not. It reads more like a story.
If those cables seem to make a difference, then do we believe that they will measure electrically different or not?
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holmz
As for checking out virtual systems there is a text box beneath each one with a link "read more" which expands it. The links I mentioned are embedded in the description of my system.
The FR is impressive.
Were there any time domain measurement like impulse or step function response?
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I have been running through my preamp options here ranging from purely passive, to a high quality op-amp active stage, to a tube active stage with NOS Amperex (Holland), to a well-regarded unity gain solid state model. The preamp has been sort of a sticking point for me over the years and I have owned around 20 highly regarded (by reviewers) preamps, both tubed and solid state, and at varying price points up to and in a couple of cases exceeding $10K.
The recent comments here about the Benchmark LA4, caused me to reconsider that unit that I was previously interested in but for whatever reason never pursued. Based on all the "professional" reviews, as well as user/owner comments here and at Audio Asylum, it seems the LA4 measures superbly, and drives whatever signal is provided accurately, clearly, and without embellishment. Theoretically, that should work great for me since my front end (streamer/server and DAC) is known for being full-bodied and tonally dense, and my amplification is known for being musical - IOW, I do not need a preamp to add anything to the mix but only to provide a display, a remote, and to stay out of the way sonically.
The only negative I read from a minority of the reviewers is that in some systems they did not perceive the same level of body that they heard with other preamps, and particularly tubed preamps. A couple of people thought the Benchmark made their systems sound a little thin. Of course, Benchmark indicates this is likely because of improved timing and the absence of distortion (and the measurements support that assessment).
In summary, the excellent measurements (and reviews) resulted in my purchasing the unit but how it sounds with my gear, and compared to my existing preamp options, will be the deciding factor on whether I keep it. If it causes my system to sound thin, then I will not be keeping it since I have several other preamp options that sound really good.
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@fleschler
@westcoastaudiophile I don’t know of any high end/expensive/boutique cable manufacturers who provide testing measurements of their cables.
Iconoclast does. They have extensive specifications/measurements. Alas, none of that resulted in better/different sound:
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@holmz +1 - time domain response has significant SQ impact.it also has to include small signal steps, scaling to max power level to check dynamics.
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@westcoastaudiophile
@amir_asr "Do you really think we don’t listen to music?”using your own jargon, what “irks" me is a claim as you are able to distinguish in your listening tests between 0.001% and 0.005% THD sources, employing ~5% HD speakers, and unknown real load HD amp.
I haven't said that so it shouldn't irk you. What should make you upset is folks paying orders of magnitude more, only to get a less performant audio device.
Many people here say as actual "A” SQ quality is better than “B”, even if setup “B” includes lil better measured standalone component, assuming integrated system performance.
That's not remotely what they say. They say they buy gear based on what they "hear." They completely ignore measurements. All they have to do is demonstrate that they only used their ears and we will be pals. But they refuse to close their eyes and provide no other means to connect the experience to only what they hear.
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@fleschler
@westcoastaudiophile No, I absolutely don’t believe that. After testing 100s of cables, I know for a fact on various systems, that the most expensive cables are often inferior (sounding).
That is not "fact." It is hyperbole with no proof of sound changing. In just an afternoon, you could turn that into fact by only using your ears in a blind test to see if you can distinguish any of those two cables. Repeat the test 10 times so that we know you are not guessing.
Until then, what anxiety must be there to think there are so many cables with different sound instead of sitting back and enjoying music like we do....
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@amir_asr
What should make you upset is folks paying orders of magnitude more, only to get a less performant audio device.
This is basically just stuff you are making up. You have 0 data to prove that all cables sound the same just like you have 0 data to prove they all sound different.
Don't use money as an excuse like you have some magic spending formula for audio. I haven't seen your system, your room, your measurements, nada. I am sincerely interested in this, thanks.
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What’s really great is @amir_asr slams a line of affordable cables…
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@jerryg123
What’s really great is @amir_asr slams a line of affordable cables…
Thanks for acknowledging that. A $10 bottle of water is also affordable. It doesn't mean they get a free pass to claim health benefits for it over a $1 one.
If a $100 cable is no better than a free one that came with your gear, then the truth needs to get out about that as well as a $1000+ cable. Maybe to you $100 is nothing but for others, it is good money they don't want to throw out.
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holmz +1 - time domain response has significant SQ impact.it also has to include small signal steps, scaling to max power level to check dynamics
Which dynamics @westcoastaudiophile ?
We are not talking about impulse response anymore are we?
Are we talking about compression?
or some stickiness and hysterysis in the drivers?
I lost lock and am not following.
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@holmz yes, impulse response is sensitive to amplitude.
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man, i really dont like the refusal to publish measurements. i really dislike it, especially with the turntables. a few companies that dont publish specs have sent em to me when i asked.
i can believe that some cables sound better than others.
the biggest thing that keeps comin to mind as i read it is..."objectivist" is already taken, and it got nuthin to do with hifi.
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@amir_asr
Maybe to you $100 is nothing but for others, it is good money they don’t want to throw out.
Why do you think its not worth it? You are stuck in a loop, if it costs more than (whatever cable you happen to use) so it must be bad.
No one can help you here, you are stuck (trapped) in a fog of stubbornness, why do you want to drag everyone else into the fog with you? Danny tried lifting you out, Darko certainly gave you good advice, yet here you go on and on advising everyone else what to do with THEIR money. Stop already with the complaining.
Are you going to finally reveal your system with pics and measurements in your profile? You already said this is a thread about measurements OK?
Amir, you are a professional with a high profile. You have my respect for what you built (even though I don't agree with you or your members on everything) Don't just show up and be so callous (or irksome), OK?
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@mitch2 After reading your post concerning the Benchmark L4, you mentioned having sought out pre-amps exceeding $10K cost. I would recommend the Audio Research SP28 at $12K if you could afford it. Only if you change the input tubes to 6N6 or 6H6 (cheap tubes). Otherwise, you would be better off with the Benchmark if it sounds (or rather lack of sound) pleasing with your fuller/warmer sounding front end.
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here is a good article from another measurement-focused audio internet guy. whatever you think of his conclusions or his overall viewpoint, it strikes me as a reasonable and thoughtful position. instead of fighting it out in the forums and taking cheap shots at everyone who dares to disagree, he lays out his case clearly and ends with a call for mutual civility and respect.
from my point of view, we can just accept that reasonable people disagree with one another in every niche hobby on earth, and still try to learn something in the process. it’s all about music anyway. who cares.
also updating to point out that this guy, while he's been quite critical of some of the reviewers i enjoy reading like lavorgna, doesn't appear to have a history of attacking other measurement-focused reviewers and booting them from his comments section. food for thought
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@holmz You are correct. He could have needed better fuses or IC cables or something else. However, several other friends tried the Pangea power cable. No go. They disliked it compared to whatever they had been using. I know how great my power cables sound on several systems and the lack of returns on 1000s sold privately. So, I lent him the less expensive, earlier model, just one and he was dumbfounded. He replaced all the power cables. He was ecstatically happy. I'm happy for him and after he also changed his pre-amp input tubes, I am happy to listen to his audio system.
Yes, I'm only telling fables in your opinion. Not! You can believe it's just another story and the sound could be the same. Not! I've related how poorly his system reproduced low frequencies with very jagged sound and now a smooth sound up and down the scale. Voices are full and forward (instead of floating in the rear and thin sounding). I was using my CDs which I am very familiar with. If that earlier system from 2019 were mine after spending nearly $1/2 million, I also would have been very disappointed. It may not be perfect but after a few changes (10X more expensive power cables, 5X less expensive input tubes) his now high end sounding system is one I would be proud to own (except it is only CD based, uploaded to a computer and thumbdrives, going through a computer directory, through a Berkeley USB something or other to the DAC, then pre-amp then tri-amped multi-box speaker system). Too much work for me, I just plop the CD into the transport (or work a little more with LPs, 78s and R2R).
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The review of the Belden (Blue Jeans) Iconoclast XLR cable measurements appeared about the same to me as the Canare, the difference was the extreme price difference. The Iconoclast designer indicates that it should sound different due to construction matters affecting other electrical properties (such as timing). I cannot say that it is or isn’t inferior but it is noteworthy that it electrically measured in specific tests similar. If I were given it to test, I would also listen to it and to the Canare in a high quality audio system. If there is no difference, then I would choose the Canare for that system. if there is a difference, a significant one, then the tests were incomplete/inadequate. The Belden could sound worse though. Different results in other systems are also possible. If this listening comparison occurs in many systems with similar resuls, then the testing was probably adequate. My problem is that manufacturers of most cables do not provide tested measurements.
I have not heard Belden Iconoclast cables in any system. I didn’t know that they made a high end cable. When I went to their site, the cable components do not appear to vary much from more common, less expensive cables, including those made in China by Audioquest and others. Not even close to the high end cables I’ve heard. Harmonic Technology and XLO also made cables of similar complexity. The speaker cable components were even simpler. After viewing the Cardas video on cable assembly (and lack of testing), I have great reservations concerning expensive cables as well. Maybe it’s luck for the audiophile who finds a cable manufacturer who designs and assembles higher end or more costly cables that transmit sound better than inexpensive plain jane well measured cables. I’m just glad that I found a cable manufacturer whose cables do make a positive difference for nearly every system they are placed in.
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As to tweaks, I say try it and if you like the sound results, keep it. Otherwise, return it. I tried many footers when a dealer continued to send them to me to evaluate. One was terrible under all equipment and about 8 others were more similar than different in effect. None were inexpensive, ranging from $49 to $500 per footer, a broad range but cost more than most footers were in the 1980s (cones, silicone rings, springs, etc). I think roller balls in captive devices were the next step, vibraplanes and then multi-density/elastomer type devices, almost all more expensive.
It wasn't until I purchased the Townshend Seismic Sink that I decided to keep my VPI TNT VI in 2006. It has terrible vibration isolation, much worse than the rubber block and spring footers of my VPI 19-4. That Townshend is fantastic for turntable isolation (my equipment rack was not the problem, made of welded steel tubing filled with 50/50 shot and sand/dead sounding when struck).
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"The industry is transforming though because if they don’t measure, then I might. :)"
What unbelievable arrogance. No wonder people in the industry regard your site as a joke. You still have not answered if you actually ever check whether Yang sends you off the shelf products or cherry picked ones. This is now the fourth time I have put this to you. Scared? If you do check, show us scientific evidence that you do, else it is just your statement. Perhaps make a video showing an independent person check as you open an off the shelf product and one sent to you.
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Yes, go ahead and measure my Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Euphoria SPDIF digital cable. I would pay $25 to find out how it measures. But I'm not sending it to you, you'll have to acquire one on loan from a retailer, SR or someone else using it and I will pay for the results.
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@holmz You are correct. He could have needed better fuses or IC cables or something else.
The question was:
- how did you know it needed the power cord?
- What is happening with the power cord that makes it better?
- Is there a way to measure it?
- or does it not manifest itself in a measurement?
However, several other friends tried the Pangea power cable. No go. They disliked it compared to whatever they had been using. I know how great my power cables sound on several systems and the lack of returns on 1000s sold privately. So, I lent him the less expensive, earlier model, just one and he was dumbfounded. He replaced all the power cables. He was ecstatically happy. I’m happy for him and after he also changed his pre-amp input tubes, I am happy to listen to his audio system.
Good for him.
Yes, I’m only telling fables in your opinion. Not! You can believe it’s just another story and the sound could be the same. Not!
Let me rePhrase it.
“How can I tell the difference between your story and a fable?”
How would I know whether it is true and a real thing or a psychological thing, or even just a story.
I’ve related how poorly his system reproduced low frequencies with very jagged sound and now a smooth sound up and down the scale.
OK- Is there a plot like @kota1 showed where the frequency response went from jagged to smooth?
Voices are full and forward (instead of floating in the rear and thin sounding). I was using my CDs which I am very familiar with. If that earlier system from 2019 were mine after spending nearly $1/2 million, I also would have been very disappointed. It may not be perfect but after a few changes (10X more expensive power cables, 5X less expensive input tubes) his now high end sounding system is one I would be proud to own (except it is only CD based, uploaded to a computer and thumbdrives, going through a computer directory, through a Berkeley USB something or other to the DAC, then pre-amp then tri-amped multi-box speaker system). Too much work for me, I just plop the CD into the transport (or work a little more with LPs, 78s and R2R).
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@td_dayton
also updating to point out that this guy, while he's been quite critical of some of the reviewers i enjoy reading like lavorgna, doesn't appear to have a history of attacking other measurement-focused reviewers and booting them from his comments section. food for thought
Yes, Archimago appears to be a well-adjusted human. Also a decently articulate writer. I should check his blog more often.
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@russ69
Let me rePhrase it.
“How can I tell the difference between your story and a fable?”
How would I know whether it is true and a real thing or a psychological thing, or even just a story.
This is the essence of chat rooms and the internet. Of all the stuff you read how do you filter out what is relevant to you. In my opinion measurements of a product are a poor indicator to whether or not you will like it. A good indicator is customer reviews. Look at the opinions of people who bought it. I am NOT a believer in the blind test unless you have a panel of trained listeners and the proper setup. I am a BIG believer in the customer knowing if something is good or bad. If you want to know if product X walks the walk check Amazon, Crutchfield, Audio Advice, Sweetwater, Guitar Center, etc. for customer reviews. Then check the forums and some professional reviews. Then audition it by leaving it in your system for a few weeks and see what happens when you take it out.
If there was one measurement that was universally best for everyone every manufacturer would produce their gear to fit that measurement in order to compete. I wish that were true but it just isn’t.
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@laoman +1 He won't even post measurements and pics of his own system. No one will make fun of him here, this is a thread about measurements.
Did he just show up to throw up or is he going to throw down?
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"What should make you upset is folks paying orders of magnitude more, only to get a less performant audio device."
I think this about sums it up. Got to save the world from itself.
I feel sorry for the people who blindly believe the BS you're throwing down on your channel. IMO, it's irresponsible and a disservice to the hi-fi community.
I was done with ASR a while ago, and you haven't changed my opinion.
Because once you know, you know. And I DO know. And I'm old enough and my equipment is good enough that I CAN hear differences when I swap out (whatever piece of equipment you'd like to insert here). I trust my judgement. IOW, I trust my ears, (whether you can measure that or not, I don't really care). I don't need your measurements or validation. I don't need your approval. I don't need your channel. And I absolutely don't need your passive aggressive, condescending snarky comments.
Have a great day.
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This is the essence of chat rooms and the internet. Of all the stuff you read how do you filter out what is relevant to you. In my opinion measurements of a product are a poor indicator to whether or not you will like it. A good indicator is customer reviews. Look at the opinions of people who bought it. I am NOT a believer in the blind test unless you have a panel of trained listeners and the proper setup. I am a BIG believer in the customer knowing if something is good or bad. If you want to know if product X walks the walk check Amazon, Crutchfield, Audio Advice, Sweetwater, Guitar Center, etc. for customer reviews. Then check the forums and some professional reviews. Then audition it by leaving it in your system for a few weeks and see what happens when you take it out.
If there was one measurement that was universally best for everyone every manufacturer would produce their gear to fit that measurement in order to compete. I wish that were true but it just isn’t
You started out wanting measurements and a list of equipment, and now it is back to being that none of that matters, and it is all in the ears of the beholder.
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@holmz
I felt there is no other way for you to get the info you were requesting about gear.
The measurements of the gear are different than the measurements of how the gear behaves in a room right?
I advocate getting the room right first and yes, in room measurements can indeed make the trial and error process a bit faster (and maybe even less expensive).
Now, to answer your question to the OP of how to separate the real deal from a fable I can’t tell you a single measurement that will get you 100% guaranteed satisfaction that your money was a good investment. If you know a better way than auditioning it in your own room I am open to trying it.
I would not recommend just taking some expensive speakers that measure well and sticking them in a room with bare walls like some of our scientifically minded guests. For casual listening, fine. For critical listening and professional reviews maybe get some feedback from a knowledgeable third party like Anthony Grimani at www.sonitususa.com or Jeff Hedback at www.hdacosutics.net.
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@laoman
You still have not answered if you actually ever check whether Yang sends you off the shelf products or cherry picked ones. This is now the fourth time I have put this to you. Scared?
Fourth time? I have only seen it now. First, no, John doesn't send me anything. He is an engineer there. I have had a contact there way before John worked there that sends me equipment.
Every Topping product comes with audio measurements -- what OP was asking about. They were doing this before I started measuring gear. It is not a surprise then that their gear measures well. They optimize and verify their designs as part of their own engineering process -- what every audio company should be doing.
As to your allegations, when this came up a couple of years ago, my contact there offered that I go and buy everything I have tested from them at their expense to verify that no golden sample is picked. I consider Topping very ethical and accept their word that the speak the truth here.
If you have any evidence to the contrary, put it forward. Otherwise, the allegations are uncalled for. And at any rate, would apply to every reviewer out there getting company samples which means 100% of the gear sites like Stereophile, Soundstage, joe reviewer, etc. tests. Have you voiced objections about them in the same manner?
Keep in mind that these are not mechanical product subject to large variations. Yes, there can be minor differences in performance of components but nothing significant can be achieved.
Finally, members from time to time send me samples they have purchased to remeasure and compare against company supplied ones. So far, none have produced different results to indicate any gold samples are picked.
I suggest if you are going to call a company's conduct into question, that you work on some evidence to back it. They surely deserve not having their reputation soiled just because you felt like it.
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@coralkong
I was done with ASR a while ago, and you haven't changed my opinion.
No worries. I am only responding to what people write about me/ASR. Stop doing that and I won't interact with you.
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@fleschler
"As to tweaks, I say try it and if you like the sound results, keep it. "
Excellent advice. I would just make sure you only use your ears in such an evaluation. They are trivial to test this way because they don't change any linear aspects of the device (levels, frequency response, etc.). Have a loved one add or not add the tweak 10 times and see if you can tell the difference 8 out of 10 times. Take all the time you need. Let your ears and only your ears be the judge and not fall for statistical error.
If you do pass such a test, repeat with capturing a video of it and we have something wonderful to discuss! If you can't do that, then measurements, null tests, engineering analysis of what is going on, etc. are great help in getting to truth of the matter.
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@amir_asr
If you do pass such a test, repeat with capturing a video of it and we have something wonderful to discuss! If you can’t do that, then measurements, null tests, engineering analysis of what is going on, etc. are great help in getting to truth of the matter.
Don’t just show up here and start telling everyone what to do when you don’t lead by example. You have not posted your own system, pics and measurements in the virtual system page, as you say, "we will have something wonderful to discuss"
You are all about what the OP should do, let’s go and show him what you got, you gonna walk or talk? I promise to make no disparaging remarks, just try to be helpful, please do same.
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Is anyone beside me surprised that someone who is an expert on measurements either doesn't have or won't post his own room with his own measurements in the virtual system area, in a thread on measurements????
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@holmz
I felt there is no other way for you to get the info you were requesting about gear.
The measurements of the gear are different than the measurements of how the gear behaves in a room right?
That depends on if it is a signal measurement or a room measurement?
The former is an electrical thing for components, IC, speaker cables, amps.
The later is about fields, which are measurement of the resulting acoustic field… that combines the electrical signal with the speaker and the room.
To isolate and remove the room and speakers, makes it a bit easier to consider how each component, IC, cable etc is contributing or not to the overall picture.
The ICs will not really have a whole lot to do with the room, unless it is high inductance or capacitance and being use like a tone control.
If there is some other thing happening with crystal boundaries, or dielectric polarisation, then that too should show up as the signal being changed when comparing one IC with another.
When this cannot be shown, it leads me to believe that it may not be measurable.
I advocate getting the room right first and yes, in room measurements can indeed make the trial and error process a bit faster (and maybe even less expensive).
^This^ I can abide.
Now, to answer your question to the OP of how to separate the real deal from a fable I can’t tell you a single measurement that will get you 100% guaranteed satisfaction that your money was a good investment. If you know a better way than auditioning it in your own room I am open to trying it.
Well there is a null test, and ICs should respond well to that… and power cords should show that the signal coming out of say a power amp is either the same or changed if one can compare them. But this never seems to be shown.
Speaker cables have inductance and capacitance, and the speakers have larger current demands than an IC. When a cable coma-any has specs that is great.
With, or without, that I can only assume that if I want the total inductance and capacitance to be low, then I should probably keep those cables on the short side.
I’ll likely stay with the IC mostly using Mogami/Neutrik combo, and a few speaker cables of Magomi or cotton/.copper, and a few ICs using silver and cotton.
Most of my ICs are only as long as they need to be, and I would rather spend the money on electronics until such time as I can understand if the IC are different or not.
Better is good, but to begin with can we even know if they are different?
I would not recommend just taking some expensive speakers that measure well and sticking them in a room with bare walls like some of our scientifically minded guests.
There are step function and impulse response measurements.
The FR can be largely corrected with DSP/EQ, and the impulse response somewhat corrected with Dirac.
Whether someone starts off with the room or speakers, they often often end up with both good speakers and a somewhat treated room. More often than not the room work comes later… so there is no great dishonour in having speakers that measure better as a start.
It doesn’t matter too much how well treated a room is treated if the speakers have poor impulse response, poor frequency response, resonating boxes, being output limited by compression, and have high harmonic (IM, and Doppler) distortion… but the room treatment may help with their radiation pattern and remove some brightness from the FR.
For casual listening, fine. For critical listening and professional reviews maybe get some feedback from a knowledgeable third party like Anthony Grimani at www.sonitususa.com or Jeff Hedback at www.hdacosutics.net.
A lot of people start with a speaker in a room, and then go to DSP, Dirac, or RoomPerfect, and/or add treatments.
I guess this last part is what separates us?
Namely whether it is a for critical listening, or causally listening to music.
And then what are we critically listening for?
I often start out wanting to listen to music and get blocked by sibilance, and once the grating sibilance is gone, then I get happy again.
The recordings that are overly sibilant just end up staying in their sleeves most of the time.
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Quick post answer (I haven’t read them all yet). @holmz
1. I didn’t know that he needed a new power cord but upon seeing what he was using, knowing friends negative experience and knowing my own experience with this particular high end cable, I suggested it. He didn’t believe in it as an electrical engineer but did a 180 after he heard it for himself.
2. As to the ragged frequency response so obvious in the bass, I had two friends accompany me pre-power cable change and the Golden Ear remastering engineer friend blurted out that it sounds terrible. He is high functioning slight autistic so he just let loose. We heard as well but didn’t know why with such great gear. Anyone could hear that the bass was not linear, but ragged going up and down the scale. It was a total mess.
You write like a know it all as well. Why don’t you take a leaf from the book of ASR member Matt Hooper/prof (here) and read his comments on subjective listening and opinion (even as posted on ASR). The link is on page 3 with his agreement with Audiogon members (eventually) at the bottom third of the page.
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You write like a know it all as well. Why don’t you take a leaf from the book of ASR member Matt Hooper/prof (here) and read his comments on subjective listening and opinion (even as posted on ASR). The link is on page 3 with his agreement with Audiogon members (eventually) at the bottom third of the page.
Sorry if I offended you @fleschler maybe I am a bit on the scale.
I am setting up the system in a new room (new house), so maybe these questions I have should be worded more like questions than as statements
It is not like I have access to people than can come by and look at the power cords and know what to change.
And I certainly do not know it all, like in terms of being able to identify the power cord as a solution to the bass being rippled.
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@fleschler
2. As to the ragged frequency response so obvious in the bass, I had two friends accompany me pre-power cable change and the Golden Ear remastering engineer friend blurted out that it sounds terrible. He is high functioning slight autistic so he just let loose. We heard as well but didn’t know why with such great gear.
You didn't know? Every system, and I repeat, every system out there will have uneven bass response regardless of price once placed in a room. Below transition frequencies of a few hundred hertz, the room dominates the frequency response of the speakers. You can pour millions of dollars into electronics and speakers and it will not be fixed.
The cheapest and one of the most effect solution is equalization which sadly many subjectivists audiophiles don't deploy. With it, you can pull the peaks down and not only make the response more even, but also reduce the distortion from the speakers.
You can attempt to use acoustic products as well but the wavelengths are so large and energy so huge that you can barely make a dent in it < 100 Hz. By the time you put enough of them in there you room can wind up too dead which is unpleasant especially for acoustic/orchestral/big band music.
A power cord will do absolutely nothing for this as this effect (modal response). Yes, you can imagine that the bass has gotten "tighter" post such a change but it is a false impression which disappears after the psychological effect of the change is gone.
If you disagree, post a before and after frequency response measurement of your room with or without your favorite power cable.
If this knowledge is new to you, I highly suggest reading Dr. Floyd Toole's book: Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms
The book costs much less than the money that was wasted on said power cords.
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@amir_asr
After having read your reply and getting past the fake outrage, your answer is "No." , you do not check. That is alright, but it will always leave you open to questions.I say fake outrage because no allegation or insinuation was made; a simple question was asked. I could say that you protest too much.
Now some advice for you. If you got off your high horse and allowed some discussion in ASR, none of these threads would ever have materialised. It is your arrogance and intransigence in throwing off anyone who disagrees with you that annoys many people including your own minions. Look at your appalling treatment of restorerjohn, (yes I know you did not ban him, but you dismissed him in a particularly nasty way), on your own site. This was a disgrace.
One final point. :You stated: "Keep in mind that these are not mechanical product subject to large variations. Yes, there can be minor differences in performance of components but nothing significant can be achieved."
Amir this is blatant nonsense. Are you saying that adding better quality capacitors, improved shielding, an improved power supply, high voltage transformers and decoupling the power supply does not lead to a significant improvement?
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@laoman
Amir this is blatant nonsense. Are you saying that adding better quality capacitors, improved shielding, an improved power supply, high voltage transformers and decoupling the power supply does not lead to a significant improvement?
First, you don't seem to follow the discussion. Poster claimed that power cables cure modal response of the room. They do not in any form or fashion. Physics dictate that.
As to your new independent claim, you are being very vague. Of course a good power supply needs to be designed internal to your audio gear for it to perform well. This is mandatory. Once there however, you screwing around with power cables, filter, conditioners, etc. is all useless. Completely useless. I have shown this extensively across countless products I have tested.
The best test of this is on purpose feeding audio gear highly distorted AC. My lab AC generator can produce chopped AC. When I feed that to decently designed audio gear, it makes zero change to its output. As it should be. No decently designed power supply assumes clean AC. It converts AC to very clean DC so anything you do up front is useless. See:
This is the AC quality in my my house:
I changed that to this chopped AC:
Look at how much more distorted the waveform is. Yet it made no difference whatsoever to the soundwaves out of the audio gear.
No impact whatsoever. If this didn't change the sound, what on earth do you think a different power cable does???
In every review of cables, I show measurements of the cables themselves as well. Many times they don't even do the things you think they are doing! In a number of cases, they are more susceptible to noise than other way around. You are a complete victim of power tweak companies if you think any of them improve the sound of your system.
Be a good consumer: ask these companies to provide measurements and controlled listening tests. Don't become their PR people, making arguments that have no foundation in reality like what I am responding to.
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If you rather watch a video, here it is as well:
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@russ69 , thank you for your thoughtful and articulate response, What did you think of the idea of checking customer reviews? I use Mogami cables and we both seem to like them. I personally found that attention to power was a good idea but totally subject to your grid and the wiring in your home. I don’t have dedicated circuits but try to work around it as best I can.
As for speaker/dsp/room I like the idea of starting with the room, then DSP to dial it in. That was the exact method shared by Jeff Clark of Audyssey and Phil from Sound United. I got the best results with the pro version of Audyssey and this is video where they both laid that road map. Even if you don't use Audyssey this is a good resource, FWIW Jeff did reply to my e-mails and seemed to really care about their customers:
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That was a quick and interesting response.
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