browndt, agree that all the factors you mentioned make a difference. I am interested in your observations about furniture which I haven't yet explored. What audio furniture do you recommend, and what were the sonic characteristics? For example, in the old days, some writers recommended light furniture for the Linn Sondek turntable.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
WC, other possible reasons for differences in right/left balance could be aging tubes in your Ref 10 preamp, R/L differences from other components in the chain. Try unplugging and reversing R/L in each different component to try to diagnose this. In any case, this imaging anomaly seems to be a minor annoyance in that other qualities such as the tubes give you so much pleasure. |
Pass labs is a good AMP, but not the best.he lacks clarity in the mid. Voices are more oppressies compared to the other Instruments. (The strong bass ,on your speakers, sound slightly displaces the other Instruments in mis-low). I prefer to hear the Esoteric f-05 , Ear Yoshino 509, and the world’s best speakers : Ilumnia magister. a reason to “feel” the Music. As if you were present in the studio. |
It takes some people years and others ,not that long , but it seems,myself included , that once people experience the Smooth, Open , Musicality and Realness of some Good Tube Equipment , it is very hard to go back to Solid State. :) I said it way back when , in this thread , about being able to listen for days on end, .That is the type of sound I can live with .....forever. |
Hi guys: I tried my third 2301 to see if maybe it was an issue with one of the other 2 and no the same slight feeling of the mids not being dead center is happening. I had my wife sit down and she said the mids to her seem to come from the middle. I also mesdured the speaker distance to my listening chair and they are almost the same distance. Anyhow, I’m here to say that the level of liquidity is mind blowing with this set up. Am I getting massive bass? No I’m not but the rest is just incredible. I can sit here until 3am and listen to music without any fatigue. Outstanding synergy is taken over everything. I got confirmation the 200.8s will be here no later than September 14. The bhk Monos will be here on Tuesday which sucks. For now, I will the very honest: I HIGHLY HIGHLY DOUBT that the 200.8s can improve on what I am hearing right now. If they do, I’ll be shocked beyond belief. Hell, I’d love to bring the dag m400s right now to come and play here. I don’t expect my set up to best solid state bass and dynamics but let me tell you that in liquidity andmusicality... it can break hearts...it feels as if i put 3d glasses on and things have layers of information in a 3 dimensional way. The remaining amps that are in my head are: pass labs 200.8s (coming in 2 weeks) arc 160m dag momentum 400s luxman 900u monos BAT 655se monos thats pretty much it guys. I don’t have any other amps I want to try. Anything else would be something that maybe fell in my lap at a great deal. My elite amp choices are running out. The market is starting to dry out for me in terms of amps. I’ve moved faster than most companies can produce new product. I knew this would eventually happen. I knew I would eventually run out of amps that can capture me. I plan on holding on to 2 pairs of amps that sound very different than each other while satisfying me. I believe that the 2301s could be that first pair. The 200.8s will determine that. :) |
Viber6, I appreciate your very kind comments and as stated earlier I personally find your perspective and thread contributions quite worthy and stimulating. It is apparent that a brief deviation from the thread topic is annoying to some participants here and I apologize for this deversion into a discussion centered on musicians rather than the Audio hardware. This is of course the dominant interest to the majority here. Whitecamaross thanks for your tolerance of my interaction and topic deviation with viber6. Charles |
@whitecamaross lright guys: I just plugged in one silver 7 cable to my right speaker and a silver 8 to my left speaker. I played a few songs and used the “mono” mode that the ref10 has which pretty much outputs the same signal to both L and R channel. I can certainly hear more out of the speaker connected with the silver 7. Incredible how the magico tell me what’s going on. Please be patient on the Cable break in . It is Real |
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It's a shame that some people are so self absorbed that they dont realize 90% of the audience has left the party. Congratulations on alienating almost everybody except for a few like minded individuals. If I want to experience pretentiousness I will put in a Frasier DVD or a Mash episode featuring Charles Emerson Winchester the 3rd. Get the Hint already and take it elsewhere. |
WC, regarding your question about more vocals on the right side--a slight difference in speaker position between L and R may be a factor. Tweeters, especially the fine ones in the Magico must be angled equally, and are most sensitive to this effect because of the smaller wavelengths of the highs. Personally, as long as one speaker is not obviously overdominant, precise localized imaging is not as important to me as tone, frequency extension, inner detail, clarity, etc. Many people at live concerts note that natural instrument placement is nowhere as precise as stereo system imaging. |
Charles1dad, you're right about Monk, Davis, etc, but how about all the undiscovered great musicians that you never heard because they didn't have the other personal qualities needed for managers to promote them. Also, in athletics, there are very objective criteria of talent which can be measured, like speed, strength, agility, etc. However in music, all the competitors have excellent technique, and their interpretations and personal images vary so much, that it really becomes a game of politics of subjective opinion about who will be successful in making a career. Equally brilliant lawyers on both sides of a case have trouble convincing the judge and jury to accept their arguments, so that it becomes arbitrary who wins the case. Such is the situation with judging musicians. AND DO YOU THREAD ISOLATIONISTS SEE THE RELEVANCE OF THESE ARBITRARY CRITERIA TO AUDIO EQUIPMENT? |
About threads. Charles1dad is very thoughtful, and mayoradamwest is the revered musician of this thread. WC has created a wonderful community here. Charles has made so many contributions and everything related to music is welcome here. Whatever Charles wants to discuss is welcome here. Mikepaul has asked probing questions about coping with the medical illness called Audiophilia Nervosa. Even WC is beginning to think that his present happiness with his system will endure, and he not have the wandering eye that much in the future. So this thread has psychological ramifications. It's not just about the equipment. Let's keep this happy community going. I think WC approves. Besides, the last day or so has been intermission fun while we all eagerly await WC's assessment of the BHK and Pass. Then WC will be the star of the show again. |
Alright guys: I just plugged in one silver 7 cable to my right speaker and a silver 8 to my left speaker. I played a few songs and used the “mono” mode that the ref10 has which pretty much outputs the same signal to both L and R channel. I can certainly hear more out of the speaker connected with the silver 7. Incredible how the magico tell me what’s going on. Lastly, either I’m going deaf or I’m hearing a little more vocals on the right side. This happened before I got any cables so it’s not the cables. Hmmm. I wonder what it could be. Last time I had this phenomenon was when I had Belcanto 600m Monos. The powercords was what made the vocals shift from being dead center. |
+2 Mr. Bill....this is WCs adventure and that’s what I want to read about. This whole page only has one 3 line comment by WC and the rest is rambling chatter with out much relevance to the thread. Too many self proclaimed experts giving each other advice. Now....let me tell you that having played backup guitar to Eric Clapton I believe I know how an acoustic guitar should sound like. (Kidding) |
This is a very fragmented discussion. But my two cents worth. I own the Pass 350.8. It is an excellent amp and better, in most respects, to any amp I have heard. So I look at it as an excellent foundation for my system. Its the care in choosing the rest of the system that really pays dividends. The phono amp and preamp are critical as is the cartridge for vinyl playback. Of course the speakers are critical in that they have to be matched to the room acoustics. Everything else I own is tube based. As someone else has mentioned a 6SN7 tube based preamp will really change your system if you choose the right tubes. Same with the phono amp, if you you choose the right tubes. The right furniture also makes a big difference. Have this part of the system custom made, not all the overpriced contraptions sold here and elsewhere. And on it goes until one day it all sounds right. |
Viber6, Thank you for your reply. "Playing the game" has more influence than innate musician talent? That's regrettable as well as disappointing. I'm much more involved and knowledgeable about jazz than classical music. When listening it is so apparent to recognize genuine ability. No had to tell me Theloneus Monk, Miles Davis or Gerry Mulligan are special, it's self evident. No amount of "playing the game" could overshadow that truth. Or so it would seem. Charles |
charles1dad, the general performance level is very high these days because of all the competition in a field where everyone loves to make music. An average Juilliard student puts on a good performance. Even a good amateur like me is capable of pleasing most audience members. There's a cute girl named Tiffany Poon who plays piano on youtube. I like her sensitive performances of some pieces more than Vladimir Horowitz. Despite all her clever videos which attract lots of viewers and several patrons, she is not making it, despite her extraordinary record of competition wins. So she is going to enter Yale to get a masters degree. She doesn't need any more education--she plays better technically and musically than many of her teachers. But she needs to play the politics and marketing game more--that's what it will take to get the recognition and the career that she deserves. I think Anne Sophie Mutter is a decent but ordinary soloist, but she has played the game well, using her womanly charms, first with Herbert von Karajan and lately with Andre Previn whom she divorced. |
Hello viber6, Your posts are interesting and provoke thought. You wrote that big name musicians often sound mediocre and that the better sounding musicians struggle to make a living. My question is why aren't the better musicians recognized for their superior talent? How do the lesser musicians acquire the bigger name ,fame and presumably higher income? This is a sincere question. How is this possible? This isn't the case with athletics/sports. Those with a higher talent level are clearly sorted out. Charles |
mayoradamwest, thanks for relating your experience. Just wondering--how does the sound of your trumpet under your ear compare to the sound heard 5 feet away with the bell projected at him? I suspect that listener gets much more energy with piercing high frequencies than you are hearing. Correct me if I am wrong. My guess is that the trumpet is highly directional with most of the energy right on axis and a big drop off axis, probably a bigger difference than my directional cardioid mics where most of the drop-off is only in the high freq. By contrast, my violin projects with fairly large dispersion, and the sound under my ear is MUCH louder and MUCH more detailed than any listener perceives. As far as listening in the audience, once I made the mistake of sitting close and far left. Much of the first violin section had their backs to me which smothered the sound, rolling off the highs especially. So if I cannot get my choice seat slightly to the left of center in the first row in line with the soloist, I would rather sit slightly to the right of center so all the first violinists project their sound at me, but not too far right, otherwise the cellos are dominating. I love the recordings of Maurice Andre for his mellow legato trumpet sound, although I never heard him live. Although not quite high fidelity, I love the sound of the NBC Symphony under Toscanini. The crisp horn sound of the Berv brothers is exciting. Also, the recording technique is close and projecting. After 1950, the sound of those recordings is truly exciting. I have never heard anything more exciting than their Verdi Overture to La Forza del Destino from 1952. I also love the nasty crack of the brass section at the opening of the turbulent section of the William Tell Overture and the forceful but controlled impact of the tympani. Everyone knows the final section with the piercing trumpet calls and impactful tympani. HOT DAMN! I hate most other recordings of this piece where the brass and tympani are mellowed out and smothered in stupid ambience so the impact is dulled. With violinists, I learned that the rich, sensitive sound of the great masters was created with NARROW vibrato, paradoxical as it seems. Watch the videos of Mischa Elman who had the richest sound of all, but his vibrato was so narrow that if you were to watch his video with sound muted, you could not predict the characteristics of his sound. Most of today's young violin soloists have a wider vibrato which actually creates a harsher, cruder sound. I particularly hate the sound of Anne Sophie Mutter, whose gross vibrato makes her sound like a truck driver. As with overpriced, overhyped audio equipment, big name musicians often sound mediocre to the truly informed connoisseurs, and better musicians without media hype are often struggling to make a living, just like many great smaller audio companies. |
@curiousjim I do not remember exactly how much space , but i originally had two 500 gig hard drives , but I recently added a 2TB USB drive and started ripping all new stuff. I have heard that 1000 cds would be about 700 Gigabyte. I would think less than 1TB, The maximum storage capacity of a CD-ROM is about 700 Mb, so as a higher bound for 1000 non-compressed audio CD files I would consider 700*1000 Mb = 700 Gb = 0.7 Tb that can fit easily in an external hard disk drive. i am using a Dell Precision T5400. I definitely now use BackBlaze @ $5 per Month. |
@viber6 I play trumpet in the SF Bay area and have played with most of the pro orchestras around here. The trouble with recordings pre-80s more than anything else is that winds and brass completely changed their style of playing in the US. It went from short and bright, to darker and more legato. With the strings a big change occurred as well with a bigger focus on intonation and less vibrato in auditions. Perhaps my favorite recording of the past 20 years in the CSO doing Mahler 3, released in 2007. I've never heard the opening horns (all 12 of them) sound so good. That said, it's nothing like in person. I had a chance to see Philly do Shostakovich 7 a few years ago and it was breathtaking. I don't particularly like Boston, but the recent release of Shostakovich 4 is also wonderful. These are getting much closer to the sound of the orchestra. As a brass player, I have a lot of time to sit around and listen. |
mayoradamwest, Great to hear that your experience confirms mine. What instrument do you play? Where do you live? My favorite orchestra recordings are the close miked and EQ'ed high frequency boosts of Mercury Living Presence. Brilliant and exciting, mimicking what we hear when we play in the orchestra. I also love the Turnabout/Vox recordings from 1967 of the Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances (this was promoted in the audio salons when I got started in 1978) and the Copland popular pieces--Rodeo, Fanfare for the Common Man. These are upfront sounding recordings with wonderful presence and impact. (I can't stand the sound of most other recordings of the Symphonic Dances--you can hear the echoes and distant murky ambience which kills the life out of those performances.) I was inspired by these recordings, and developed my recording technique to mirror the excitement of these recordings. I place the pair of directional cardioid Neumann KM 184 microphones right over the conductor's head, angled about 100-110 degrees with microphone diaphragms about 12 inches apart in a modified Blumlein technique. When he heard the playback over headphones right after a concert, he said that it was just like the live sound he heard as he conducted. I'll say it was "better" because I boosted the highs to make it more exciting because the live sound on that cramped stage is boxy. charles1dad, listen to the saxophone solos in the first movement of the Rachmaninoff in that Turnabout recording (Donald Johanos conducting the Dallas Symphony). It is close miked and immediate. On my system, it is very live and realistic. A similarly immediate recording of brass is the "For Duke" audiophile recording by M & K. |
@viber6 I ripped all of my Cds in.wav format into JRiver. I had about 600 all together .Some people will say that you do not have to use .wav files , BUT...In my system i can hear a difference in lossloess vs .wav.. JRiver is probably not the most user friendly , but it can do up to double rate DSD. It will also upconvert any lower res files up to whatever your DAC can handle.they have channels that you can stream and lots of HD Radio stations. It is a pretty awesome piece of software. I am actually hardwired to my Router /Modem for Roku, TV, Mx150,Oppo203 .. etc You can also bitstream. The cost is about 40 bucks for the software. It will run on Mac or PC. You can download Gizmo for your phone andriod or apple , to control playback also. lots of cool things you can do with JRiver media Center. I put mine up on my 4K 70 inch Sony TV. It is awesome looking.. especially Black on Black skin https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71588.0 |
@viber6 I'll quote you here. "Maybe I can't do a sex change operation and convert the SS amp into a tube amp, but how about creating a 55%male/45% female or 30% tube/70% SS type of sound? No problem, completely legal, and no audiophile social stigma attached to that! As RIAA says, who cares what other people think, as long as you satisfy yourself..... Just EQ the whole thing for yourself. Tremendous empowerment is yours." Totally agreed. I really is about how you want to hear the music. For crying out loud, this is why we do this thing, because of the pleasure we receive. Thanks for sharing all the EQ comments. |
WC, wonderful to get a good taste of reality for a small (gulp?) fortune. Try the Rane ME60 for a few hundred bucks, or the suggestions of robc33 and grey9hound for other EQ systems. If you love tubes, the Manley tube EQ mentioned by robc33 may be the best way to go. You might be able to do without the ARC preamp, and wind up with fully flexible sound that will do EVERYTHING you like EVEN BETTER. I am very confident about all this. |
grey9hound, Thanks for informing me about your digital/internet EQ. How much does all that cost? Whatever it costs, it is worth it and is likely a much more productive investment than $50,000 or so in amps. I am still in the dark ages with my cheapo Rane ME60, but it works so well and is almost infinitely adjustable by hand. The Rane electronics is so good that being analog all the way as a preamp with its EQ is great. The simplification mentioned by techno_dude is also a good way to go, if he is really good at fine tuning his tone controls. My present setup is the CD transport going into the Benchmark DAC1, then analog output of the Benchmark into the Rane EQ with its crude dual mono volume controls all the way up, then into my amp. Volume is adjustable via the Benchmark DAC. As an aside, I am worried about the coming 5G. I don't want wifi at home, and am studying which meters to buy to assess my bedroom, which probably must be shielded from EMF pollution. |
Ok I just ordered Wireworld silver eclipse 8 speaker cables and balanced cables. That being said, here is what my system consists of today: 1. Magico s5 mk2 2. McIntosh mc2301 3. ARC REF10 4. Esoteric K1 5. Ps audio p20 6. Wireworld silver 7 xlrs And speaker cables 7. Wireworld platinum usb 8. Wireworld eclipse 7 Ethernet cable 9. Wireworld silver eclipse 7 power cords 10. MacBook Pro 9. Tidal with roon 10. Dual 20 amp outlets That being said, out of all the systems I’ve owned, this is the most real sounding I’ve put together. I don’t recall anything sounding this real that I lived with. APPROXIMATE Msrp of $150,000 dollars. |
The EQ in JRiver Media Center works very well ,also. As an aside I am also using Pandora Plus through a Roku Ultra (HDMI out ) to the OPPO UDP 203 (HDMI in). I am also sending everything that comes from the Oppo UDP 203, using the (Audio Only HDMI out of the 203) into the McIntosh MX151 for the D to A conversion. This way I get the Benefit of having only 1 digital to Analog conversion being done. Of course anything that goes through the MX151 gets the Lygndorf Room Perfect applied. I do not know what the format or bitrate is from Pandora Plus , BUT, this is an amazingly good sound Oh I almost forgot , The HDMI cables are the Purist Audio Design HDMI In the previous setup i was using Purist Audio Ultimate USB, but found the HDMI to be slightly better sounding as well as the having the ability to carry any digital format or signal. The cost for the USB is $900 and the HDMI is $200 |
@viber6 I play in orchestras, and it's true that there is no comparison between a recording and the being *inside* a live orchestra. The sound in the audience is much duller. You're right to find the closest possible seat, preferably in the middle, but there is not a huge difference side to side - you'll get a difference balance, but it'll still sound wonderful. I've never heard a recording that captured the sound from within the orchestra properly. For those of you obsesses with old recordings of orchestras, it's just so far from reality I don't know what to say. The closest are some of the recent recordings of Chicago, Philly, and Boston. I'll also give a nod to the recent Mahler 9 by Los Angeles. But even these high quality recordings still don't quite capture it. |
mikepaul, interesting question about audiophile happiness. Even though I have done a lot of work on the system, I now sit back and listen and am happy with what I have worked for. But I have been to lots of live concerts in the past few years and I am unhappy with a lot of what I hear LIVE. I want to get the seat in the middle of the first row, and am not happy with the duller sound from further back if I can't get my choice seat. If I am able to buy a ticket in the 10th row, I look for closer seats and scramble closer in the last few seconds until the lights are out. Even in that best seat in the first row, I still finds lots of things to criticize from an audio point of view. I am actually happier listening at home, although I admit that my sound is still not quite natural like the real thing. So at the concert, I accept the faulty sound and just enjoy the music itself. There is an obvious parallel to your relationship with your mate. She is not perfect, but hopefully she possesses a combination of attributes that make you happy. I also enjoy music in the car, and listening to music on youtube in crummy sound. The great legendary musicians in 1930 sound are more enjoyable than many of today's young musicians in SOTA sound. |
techno_dude, congratulations on your conversion to our EQ religion. But unlike religious wars, you can EQ any way you like, either subtle or in a major way. I agree that standard tone controls are very useful, although I think that professional grade EQ's like the Rane are much more flexible with so many more options. For example, if I want an even more analytic dry sound with maximum detail, I will cut the range of 200-800 Hz by about 2-3 dB and keep the highs unchanged, instead of boosting the highs more. If I wanted a more creamy midrange, I would do the opposite and boost the range of 200-800. There are so many possibilities according to your experimentation by ear. Cut 200-400 by 1 dB and cut 400-800 by 3 dB, etc. These settings are not set in stone. They will vary according to the music, particular amp, speaker, although I generally sit tight and don't change settings often since I am satisfied these days. The purists go crazy and even I don't know precisely what I am doing and am creating many overlapping curves because I am not using a spectrum analyzer, but who cares, as long as I am listening carefully and get the sound I want. Maybe I can't do a sex change operation and convert the SS amp into a tube amp, but how about creating a 55%male/45% female or 30% tube/70% SS type of sound? No problem, completely legal, and no audiophile social stigma attached to that! As RIAA says, who cares what other people think, as long as you satisfy yourself. Also, you don't have to pester the speaker designer to change the crossovers or the balance of the drivers. Just EQ the whole thing for yourself. Tremendous empowerment is yours. Yeah, man!! |
Viber , I find your EQ opinion strongly valid. ( and before I would have never considered an eq in my system as I was a stubborn purist). This thread has opened my eyes ( and ears lol). Since I have tasted the tone controls in my Mac preamp, I would not live without them ! So my recommandation to users looking for a new integrated or preamplifier, go with something like Accuphase, Luxman, McIntosh, etc. They all have EQs or tone controls that are always bypassable. Once you get a taste of this, you cannot go back. greyhound, my vote also goes to the 2301s ( vs the BHK 300). But again WC is in for a very interesting experience comparing both, and trying the 300s on his Magicos. |
