whitecamaross ... how do you tell customers that if their stuff breaks, they need to wait 2 - 3 months to get it fixed ? It doesn’t typically take two months to get a McIntosh component repaired. I did once have a few week delay because Mac had to manufacture a new glass panel for my MR-80 tuner, which had been damaged in transit. That seems reasonable to me, because it’s unusual for a manufacturer to be willing to manufacture a part for a product many decades out of production. McIntosh schematics and service manuals are readily available and the company has many factory authorized service centers, at least in the US. These products are readily serviceable. That’s not to say that there haven’t been some problems for some users, but blame for some of those problems seems to be at the user end, such as the guy who famously was unwilling to return an amplifier for proper diagnosis and repair. Nothing was going to make him happy. I was told that McIntosh refuses to hire more techs to fix product and their attitude is more like "it will get fixed whenever we get to it " and that’s Bs in my book. That’s just hearsay, and inconsistent with my experience. |
So how do you tell customers that if their stuff breaks, they need to wait 2 - 3 months to get it fixed ? If they have been in business since then and have that kind of traffic when it comes to repairs then WHY don't they hire more technicians ? Also, they aren't nowhere as big as denon/marantz and they don't take 3 months ? So what's their excuse? I can come up with a long list of companies larger than McIntosh that don't take 3 months to fix an item. Is McIntosh larger than Sony? I had a projector go bad and it was fixed in about 3 weeks. My point is if they wanna be "ballers" as the big companies then act like one and service things in a timely manner.
If you have always been producing cars that compete with Toyota but now you want to battle Lexus by creating another line of cars then STEP UP YOUR GAME in all regards. Now you need a nicer dealership, better customer service inside that dealer, massage chairs in the lobby (yes I've seen this) etc etc.
I was told that McIntosh refuses to hire more techs to fix product and their attitude is more like "it will get fixed whenever we get to it " and that's Bs in my book. |
You should also keep in mind that McIntosh probably has 1000 to 10000 times as many products in the field as most other manufacturers. Many are from as early as the 1940s. I would bet that at least half of what they have made is still in use today.. Well i stand corrected -
McIntosh has made about a million pieces of equipment since 1949. They estimate that three-quarters of that gear is still in use. McIntosh products are so coveted by collectors, they often re-sold, after decades, for five or six times their original sale price .
- https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mcintosh-made-in-the-usa/
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ghosthouse,
Thanks for relating your experience with Merrill. I met him at the friendly gathering at the VPI house. As a nice gentleman, he held Mat Weisfeld's toddler daughter.
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WC,
Many people debate whether the preamp or the power amp forms the dominant character of the whole system. Tube preamp, SS power amp, vs SS preamp, tube power amp. So far, you found that the ref 6 into the Merrill gives sweet sound. My guess is that this will also be the case with the Christine into the ARC 160S. As far as compatibility is concerned, as long as the input impedance of the power amp is more than 10x the output impedance of the preamp, this should be fine, as is the case here.
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I Don't plan to try the Christine with the 160s amp. I don't really think it would mate well. |
I apologize to anyone, and everyone, with my demeanor. The truth of the matter is, we will always be limited by the recordings, and their processes. The audio equipment purchase merry go round, will never satisfy many, because those folks are trying to achieve something that I believe, to be impossible, with recorded music ( in the great majority of cases ). I have been there, done that, and, I understand the limitations of, and accept, the recordings, as they are ( a reason I am strictly passive at the preamp stage ). I know so many " audiophiles ", who only listen to the " best recorded music ", which is, as far as I am concerned, unfortunate. I am sorry for any negativity I have shown. Music is, and should be, a fun and enjoyable experience. I find this to personally be the case. |
I am not located at the microphone placement of a recording venue, when I attend a live performance. I am not in the studio, when my favorite musicians, and the accompanying producers, are doing their thing, making the music. Same, when the engineers and mixers are doing their thing. 50 years buying and listening to recorded music, as well as going through much gear over that time, I know I am listening to recordings, and not, the real thing. It does not matter how much one spends on equipment, as exhibited here. A poor recording, is exactly that, a poor recording. And a great recording, is again, just that, a great recording. What is never spoken about here, except for me, viber 6, and Guido ( unless I missed something, or someone ), is listening to the " emotional content " of the composers, and the players, which stands out, whether the recording is good, or bad. I can, and enjoy, listening to my recordings that are poor, because I listen past all of that other dribble spoken about. Yes, I own gear with superior sq, and more revealing of details, over a table top Bose all in one system. As long as I can hear the musicianship, which is why I listen to music to begin with, and I feel the performance is " accurate ", to me, I am fulfilled. I enjoy reviewers who talk about this, as not many, do. The simpler the system ( less gain stages, less room interaction, etc.), the more of this, is revealed. Enjoy ! MrD. |
@WC
Will you also be trying the Christine preamp with the 160s?
Dave
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Thanks for sharing ghosthouse.
I had a similar exceptional servicing experience with Simaudio in fixing an ailing amp. |
I can vouch for this as well based on what my dealer has shown me. Merrill is all about keeping you happy and goes to great lengths. The only other company that reminds me of this is PS Audio. Now, go try that with McIntosh who currently has a 2 month lead time when it comes to repairs. Yes, send your McIntosh product in for service right now and you can expect it back right around tax season. |
Given the inclusion of Merrill Audio equipment in this thread, I wanted to relate my very positive after-sale experience with Merrill Wettasinghe, the owner of Merrill Audio Advanced Technology Labs, LLC. After-sale support is certainly an important consideration when contemplating purchase of $$$ audio gear and so, I thought, relevant to this thread.
Back in 2015 I purchased a Taranis power amp from Merrill. As you will know, this is a much more modest component than found in Merrill’s current lineup (e.g., the 118 power amps and Christine preamp being discussed here).
This fall, the left channel of the amp started producing significant distortion when fed a signal. I contacted Merrill via email right at his shop’s closing time. Within 15 minutes or so, he replied with an attached, pre-paid FedEx shipping label. The amp was delivered to his shop and repaired.
Worth noting: this is 5 years after the sale and after a significant upgrade to the entire Merrill Audio product line. Merrill’s time is obviously occupied by matters other than my Taranis amp problem. I can well imagine another manufacturer saying: "the product is out of warranty"; "its been discontinued and we no longer support it"; "consider upgrading to a more current design". Take your pick. Such was NOT the case with Merrill. The source of the problem was identified, the problematic component replaced, the amp tested and is now being returned. The best part from my perspective: NO CHARGE from Merrill for shipping or repairs.
While I’ve no personal experience with the sonics of the 118s with Christine, auditioning would be well-worth it based on the OP’s comments. If considering a purchase, know that MAATL provides excellent after-sale support.
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No clue. The rowland chorus is long gone. |
WC,
How does the ref 6 compare with the Rowland Corus, both with Merrill?
RIAA,
You're right about the lack of a real reference with coked/cooked rock recordings. With unamplified classical music, recorded relatively naturally, accuracy is more meaningful. Although I was never present at any classical production, we all know what voices sound like in real life daily in all kinds of environments. This makes it easier to use classical recordings as references.
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@rsf507 based on my own experience (I also have a well broken in Ref 6) and the many many reviews, I suspect we’re splitting hairs here. I’m not sure that many people grow tired of the Ref 6 sound, but do appreciate that everyone has different tastes, completely different setups, and in different spaces. |
Im working on a stereo dag progression. Not sure if I'm sure I want it yet. |
Over the years I've had amps and pres that make all recordings sound good and quickly grew tired of the system. Yes when bad recordings sound bad I might not listen thru the entire recording but hey when a great recording is played I need depends on my chair!
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I wonder if the difference here is just SS vs Tube? I’m also imagining the Ref 6 isn’t fully broken in yet? For instance, would another top tier SS sound even better? Something from Ayre, Pass, or D’Ag? |
Agreed Riaa. I don't have as much understanding as you do on all of your points above when it comes to artists and their state of mind when creating music. It's very interesting indeed though and never really thought about it the way you laid it out. |
Always good to have multiple options at your disposal. Why be stuck with 1 of anything? If you know anything about recording/engineering...especially during the drug induced 70's/80's...there is rarely such a thing as an "honest" rock recording that turned out exactly as the artist wanted it to sound. (People like KNOPFLER are an exception not the norm) Too much pressure to produce in a short period of time due to the record company wanting product NOW. Many of the guys behind the boards were just as messed up as the people playing. I can give you a Who's who of producers/engineers who admit to being coked out of their minds during the recording process of the biggest acts of the time. I deal with these people all the time and have been for 33 years now. So PLEASE dont tell me whats on the recording IS an authentic accurate presentation of what was initially intended. To "mess" with the sound to make it sound better via gear/speakers makes it NOT authentic?? Completely clueless. I can use Klipsch speakers to make a recording sound like Im at a concert and Harbeth to take the same recording so it sounds like Im in the studio. Why not have the same option when it comes to Amps/Pre/Dac/Disc Spinners?? Your just limiting your enjoyment and musical experience going down such a narrow path seeking "accuracy" which is a Myth to begin with.... in the world of Rock n Roll anyway. Variety is certainly the spice of life in the audio world. |
Good point as long as you can live with the sound on poor recordings. I have a tough time choosing one over the other. |
If we really want honestly and hear how things were recorded then it would seem the Christine is what we are after. Why have everything sound good when that's not how it was recorded?
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Some people love to hear what was originally recorded and that means the Merrill Christine. I’m not going to lie, there’s material out there where the christine will give you a level of performance that the ref 6 can’t touch. I also heard far greater dynamic swings with the christine. For instance, sometimes I switch songs and the next song explodes with more volume the christine because it was recorded at a higher volume but when I do this same exercise using the ref6, I don’t really hear the same explosiveness when switching the same songs. It feels as if someone turned on the "late night mode" on the surround processor to keep action scenes under control late at night.
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This is a wonderful comparison, thanks for such a detailed account! I find the last example a little unusual with the restaurant. From reading the above, I would have thought the Ref 6 was more like going to a restaurant where they maybe use a little extra MSG to make everything taste better, but the Merrill allows you to taste the subtlety of all the dishes, at the risk that sometimes the dish won’t be very good.
From these descriptions, I think I’d prefer a setup where all my favorite music still sounds great, but still is plenty revealing. Which sounds like the Ref 6? I don’t want the setup to dictate the music I like. |
Ref 6 with Merrill 118s:
-musicality in spades
-Smooth, liquid with no fatigue
-Bottom end is great BUT it doesn’t have the same grip/control as with the matching Christine preamp
The trade off with using the ref6 instead of the Christine preamp is that you are giving up bass tightness/control and Dynamics in exchange for more of a forgiving presentation with poor recordings. You also lose some of the minute details that are found in the Christine but gain tube highs with sweetness with smoothness
If you want facts and nothing but the truth Then go with the Christine. If you just want for everything you play to sound good without much emphasis on the bad then the ref 6 will be your ticket.
This is a tough exercise in many ways because some songs need the Dynamics and muscularity of the christine while others need the sweetness and smoothness of the ref6.
If you like classic rock or 80s, 70s, etc then the ref6 will blow you away here. If you do classical, jazz, reggae, techno, etc then the Christine will be your piece.
Play queen, lynyrd Skynyrd, roxette, coldplay, Ellie goulding, adele, guns roses, ? -----> ref6 all the way
Play deadmau5, tiesto, diana Krall, Tracy chapman, Bob marley, avicci? ---> Christine preamp.
Do you have boomy sounding speakers that need bass tightness? Do you have laid back speakers that need more detail ? Christine with 118s.
Do you have way too much bite on the highs ? Fatigue ? Inability to play things loud for long extended zessiins? Ref6 with Merrill 118s.
I’m very very impressed with the battles taking place. The ref6 masks a lot of the low level detail but it adds delicious flavor to what it presents to you. It brings you a juicy steak on a platter each and everytime which is always tasty. The Christine brings you the steak but it let’s you know if it is not cooked to perfection while letting you know that they forgot to bring you the glass of wine you love to have with your steak.
Are you the type of person that always orders the same thing from your favorite restaurant only because you know you always like it and don’t want to try anything else on the menu? If this is a yes, then go with the ref 6 and merrill 118s
Are you the type that loves to venture and order different things from the menu each time you visit because you want to see what everything tastes like and this way you know what you like best ?
Go with the Merrill 118s.
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Toasting 3 years of this chain. Such great info and insights. Thanks of course to WC and everyone else for keeping this good thing going. |
@ skipping
Thanks. It's indeed a very honest set up which won't lie to you at all but there's a preconceived idea of what class D is all about and that hurts it because if something doesn't sell due to this then it makes manufacturers hit the brskes. This in turn halts innovation in this arena.
As far as the ref6, I will try it with the Merrill for sure. I am very excited to do so.
Remember what I said, this is ALL ABOUT what YOU PREFER and there's really NOTHING out there that is perfect. The term "perfection" is subjective and it always comes with imperfections no matter what it is. I'm grateful to have both set ups here and be able to pick them apart. Having owned some of the best amps out there, I urge you all to begin to open up your mind and explore any class D of your choosing. I'm telling you all, it's really really coming soo close to some of the best amps out there. |
Will you be trying the Reference 6 with the Merrill amp? I wonder if that’s a middle ground that would sweeten up the Merrill just a little and maybe even add a little extra sound stage? |
I've never heard an explanation of the performance of audio equipment quite described in that manner. Different, effective, and I easily grasp what your are saying. Merrill's sound like an awesome combination. Makes me want to run out and buy a set up. Loving your output. Well done. |
Preliminary impressions:
Full Merrill set up:
Thunderous bass control
Huge sound
Gobbs of detail that is typically buried in other systems
Fast paced with zero sluggishness
Excellent imaging and separation
Full arc set up:
Musical
Sweet and engaging
Big soundstage
The best bass control i remember hearing from s tube amp/preamp
This new amp has such a low floor noise that allows it to extract more detail than other tube amps I’ve owned.
Please note: the amp only has about 5 hours of total playtime so it’s nowhere near its break in point. Still has much more to go before it hits its stride.
I will try triode mode soon to see if it will be a better presentation than linear. Right now I can’t quite decide which set up I prefer because they both do things so amazingly. It is really about preference at this price point.
Tubes will always engage you and keep you seated but there’s also the maintenance part and noise being introduced as tubes age. With the Merrill there’s no maintenance, no drama and it always plays as it should because you can’t turn it off at all. It also digs deeper in the music which tubes don’t do.
Think about it like this: tubes will give you a high level summary of your company’s finances which focuses only on profits and not so much on losses or trouble areas.
The Merrill will give you a detailed breakdown of it with actual facts as if you are the CFO of your company; it brings out all of the financial statements, balance sheets, etc with complete honesty so you can see the state of your finances. It won’t hide if you aren’t doing too well financially speaking and will tell you where your you’re bleeding money from. This is pretty much the best way I can describe it.
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@whitecamaross
Seems you are alluding to system synergy and very importantly the amp/speaker interface. I'd wholeheartedly agree.
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Merril 118s with ref6 listening impressions to come soon.
The only thing I'll share with you all is that changing speakers almost forces a complete system overhaul unless you are buying speakers within the same family. What sounded good before with my other speakers doesn't seem to be creating the same effect anymore with focal.
That said, tubes are IMPRESSIVE with focal. Will the Merrill set up sing with focals ? We shall see... |
@whitecamaross
A closer look at your photo and I do indeed see the pocket on the left.
Now that you are using lower-priced speakers, you should do some research on the TAD E-1s. When you can find them, you can pick them up for a very reasonable price.
Can't wait to hear your newest impressions.
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Nice Room. I always thought Focal had a bright presentation. If that has changed, great, but excess tweeter can get digital music painful.
I noticed that the Martin Logan 15 is going for nice prices lately. They would be a great tool to work with the sound of other speakers to compare the difference of electrostatic vs standard speaker drivers. Anyway, your room looks like a winner. 10ft away from seating area (what you have now) to the speakers is a different experience than 7ft to 9 ft. Maybe the Focals need the space. Don't know, I'm not there to listen. Good luck in your fun new room. Just love the Home Theater design.
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whitecamaross
Do not worry about listener fatigue. Sessions will vary as recordings/formats vary as above.
Happy Listening! |
Pokey
My room has a pocket in the left corner so I can’t hang a trap there the same way I can on the right corner. They recommended that I do as I did. |
WC,
Don't worry about ear fatigue over long listening sessions, especially with lower quality recordings. Even natural live music that is loud will cause ear fatigue after long listening. This is why great classical music is mainly soft to moderate in volume, so when the loud burst comes, it has more impact due to contrasts. This is what dynamic range and transient response are about.
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Room is looking great. I am curious as to why there is a bass trap on the right but not one on the left? GIK recommend that? |
As far as the positioning of the speakers, they are about 5 feet away from the rear wall and 2.5 to 3ft from the side walls. I am about 10 feet away from them and they are just about 10 feet apart.
Their position will change I am sure but for now that is what I think sounds best with them.
As far as amplifiers, we will have to wait and see what will happen. I can’t really do much testing because they’re relatively new speakers.
That said, those of you who have questioned the scala evo’s bass capabilities can rest assured that it is mind blowing to the point that you might need to move them away from any walls. Also, the better the amp as far as bass control , the less boomy or bloated effect you will get. Tubes are sounding very incredible right now. We shall see what the Merrill 118s will do with a tube preamp. I am getting a little ear fatigue over long term listening sessions but again there is just too many variables right now such as new speakers, new amp , preamp etc. And I also dont know if the nordost cables are actually the right cables for these speakers. I will be trying Merrill's own cables too to see what happens.
I do remember the sopra 3s tweeter being a little smoother but they dont share the same tweeter and I think I was using wireworld platinum 7 speaker cables too.
I am also highly contemplating the MSB premier dac at some point but not until I have played with all my current variables first. |
The nice thing about the Focals is that it is allowing you to play with some lower powered amps, thus opening up a whole new world of amps to try. Fun to be along for the ride :-)
Dave
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Wow! The room looks extraordinary. Congratulations... I can't wait for everything to be broken in and to hear some serious, conclusive reviews. The AR is "to kill for"! |
I know it’s still early days yet, and almost everything, including your room is different but: how would you describe the Scalas to the Sopras you had some while back? Thx |
Room looks great wc ,congratulations' only comment would be it looks as though your speakers are a little to close to the side walls( first reflection walls).
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Ok guys,
I’ve uploaded a panoramic picture of the room in order to share with you all my blood sweat and tears. (Remember this was a 2 car garage) It has been quite a journey but now I am almost done with it. I’ve treated the whole room, had dedicated 20a and 30a outlets installed, double sided acoustic drywall, and many many other things that I will list later on.
With that said, the first shootout will take place very soon. We will see the full merill set up (118s, christine and all the Merrill cables) vs audio research 160s and ref6 preamp with nordost Odin 1 speaker cables and wireworld interconnects. It is about to get serious :) |
I am very happy with the 508 but I don’t think WC uses a TT. My plan is both a dCS Rossini and a new amp. I do wish WC would try a newer Boulder amp, but I plan auditioning the 160S as well. Very much anticipating interesting results on WCs new comparison |
mayoradamwest,
I got the latest Stereophile yesterday. Mike Fremer reviews the Boulder 508 phono preamp and finds it tonally a nice happy medium between the articulation of his CH Precision and richness of his Ypsilon preamp. As far as reviewers go, I find Mike to be honest and informative with great experience. Of course YMMV. Will you be able to hear the new Boulder 1160 amp at home soon?
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Pictures have now been posted. Listening impressions to come later on. WOW. |
That's a very good choice, a pair of ARC products meant to be used together. The next few weeks will be fun and enlightening, have fun and share the details! |
Correct. The ref6 is a little more "aggressive" sounding than the ref10. I also wanted to share with you all that the new generation of amplifiers coming out of audio research are getting voiced with the ref6 and not the ref10. Audio research is very secretive with new products and I know they have a 50th anniversary preamp coming out next year but they will deny it all day long. The ref6 is pretty much their "lab rat" when it comes to preamps. |
WC,
I remember you found the Ref 6 more detailed and focused (less mellow-tubey) than the Ref 10. It will be interesting to see how the Ref 6 compares to the Rowland Corus preamp which you found more mellow/sweet than the Merrill Christine preamp. Sugar/sweetness--tube vs solid state.
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