My first tube integrated: which one to get?

Since this is your first tube amp, you probably don’t know what type of tube sound you prefer… something more lush or something more dynamic.. there are a lot of different tube types that sound totally different.  I would recommend that you get something flexible that allows you to experiment — like the PrimaLuna Evo 200 Integrated. The PrimaLuna has Adaptive Autobias that allows you to swap the EL34 output stage valves that it comes with for a variety of other alternatives. As well as running valves you might ordinarily expect to be able to swap in place of EL-34s such as the KT88/6550, KT90 and KT120, it can also accommodate other options including the 6L6, 7581 and over-sized KT150.  So you can really tailor the sound to your liking.

I have this and will pair it with the HoloAudio Serene:

https://sigsound.com/gran-filarmonia/

I’m glad you agree that not all Cary products are made in America.

@lradder are you sure about that?

I just picked one digital unit (at random), the DMS-650, and according to the review it is made in The USA. I guess I could go through all the reviews of all Cary’s digital products or send Cary an email and ask them.

And although I am sure Rogue makes a great amplifier, aren't they on a circuit board as opposed to being wired point to point (as Cary amps are)?  Do you know off hand where those circuit boards are made? 

I’m glad you agree that all Cary products are not made in China

Nice self-own @lradder 

You provided the information that Cary Audio vacuum products are designed and built in a 10k square foot facility in Raleigh, NC (it's in the USA) and the digital products are designed in both Oriental, NC (also in the USA) & Hong Kong and digital products (and only digital products) are built in Hong Kong. This thread is about vacuum tube amplification.

Total nonsense Cary is made in the USA.

If made in the USA is a factor you have a lot of choices with tube amps.

Hong Kong is part of the PRC now.

Cary products are made in China. I'm not suggesting that Cary products are lesser quality, but I like to support America

Seriously, c'mon!

I live in Raleigh and last time I checked Cary still has a 10k sq ft shop that builds the vacuum equipment here while I understand their digital products are made in Hong Kong.

Cary products are made in China.

Where did you come by that tid-bit of bogus misinformation?

@lradder 

Cary products are made in China.

Where did you come by that tid-bit of bogus misinformation? 

I've had a Jolida JD-1000A Integrated Amp for many years and it been an outstanding performer and without mechanical issues.  If was looking I'd have a look at the Jolida/Black Ice product line.

Was in the same place a few years ago and decided to try a tube preamp with my Mac MC250 which is tubish sounding. Got a budget Chinese tube pre from YS Audio/Audio Expressions and a CJ PV 10. Both were eye openers and really increased my enjoyment especially of jazz, acoustic music, and my favorite female vocals. I ultimately went in a different direction but primarily because my wife was uncomfortable with the tube operations and living in HI the heat was kind of rough. Likely not as bad as a tube power amp but it made its impact known. If you like your power amps, I would suggest trying a pre first. BTW I did hear the CJ45/50 in a store in Memphis and LOVED it. It was superior to the Cronus and much more of the tube sound. The Cm seemed to me to be a SS amp with soft edges. I also liked the Quicksilver but felt it would not work well with my Ohm Walsh 2s. But both of those are quite nice and give the tube experience. I also have heard Raven Audio and Primaluna and would rate Raven highly. I am not sure of their prices these days but the unit I heard at a friends in NY was very nice playing thru Kef LS50s in a small NYC apartment. Good luck.

As the purchaser of the AR VSi-60 @runwell mentioned from TMR, I can agree this is a smart way to go to see if your particular set up matches with tubes. The AR is indeed a fine piece of equipment, and can now be had at great value. The looks may or may not be your cup of tea. I went from SS to a Heaven 11 Billie hybrid integrated, which did sound quite good, especially for the price. But my Sonus Faber Signums were asking for more. The less-than-half quoted power of the AR brought more life to the speakers than the Heaven 11. And I'm a vocal / midrange guy so the pairing was good. (Not to say I might not want to keep experimenting!)

Good luck. 

I spent the last 35 or so years listening to SS only and last year I ended up in the same place you are now. I looked at a bunch of "starter" tube integrateds, probably same stuff you came across too: Cary (used), Quicksilver, Rogue, Raven, Decware, Jolida/Black Ice. Primaluna, Line Magnetic, etc. Also got curious about Belles Aria and Croft Phono Integrated along the way. Ended up with a used Conrad-Johnson CAV45. No pre- or phono, so not good for your situation.

I am responding to your question about whether it's worth it. In general, I feel more engaged in the music. Hard to put a finger on with my 50+ year-old ears, but undeniable. Could also just be that it's interestingly different from my previous SS amp (Classe, which I also really liked). Anyway, I'm really glad I took the leap to try tubes and didn't go to my grave wondering about it. I concluded I would be happy with tubes or SS, but that right now I prefer the tubes.

I also think it's worth mentioning some non-musical factors that influenced me: tubes are a fun, interactive niche in the world of 2 channel audio (itself a niche at this point); CJ is a local business for me (ease of service in a hobby where this is inevitable); the gold faceplate reminds me of my childhood wandering around Myer-Emco in awe; and the CAV-45 itself has a very minimalist design, which is my style. A bit of a digression, but one or more of these factors could tip the scales for you if you feel comfortable giving weight to psychoacoustics.

Stretch to $5.5K and get the new AR I/50, wonderful amp I heard at my AR dealer in town, its 50 watts at 8 ohms drove a pair of Dynaudio Heritage Specials with only 85dB sensitivity easily, although it was a smallish room. Also buying AR ensures good warranty service and resale value. Kinda like why I buy BMW for example, apart from them being good cars.

If you are new with tube amplifier,I suggest not to buy new,buy a used one instead. In case you do not like,you can resale without big loss.

This one is really good in my opinion,look:

it is not expensive,but the sound is very good in my view.

II recommended the Line Magnetic LM-5081A single-ended amp two posts above as some push-pull tube amps recommended by others do not have the tonal quality of single-ended tube amps. Consider that.

When I first got back into stereo, I bought some Vienna acoustic Mozart’s and wanted to try out tubes.  So I bough a rogue Cronus integrated and a Cary sli 80. I found that the rogue sounded much better out of the box, but the Cary was sexier (the rogue sets it’s non-power tubes down, which might be good for better protecting them, but part of the allure of tubes is watching them glow in the dark).  Once I spent a lot of time rolling the cary tubes, I got it to sound as good as the rogue.  I then sold the rogue.  

But if you want to avoid all the hassle, I recommend the rogue right out of the box

An interesting option is a single-ended 48 watt per channel 805 tube amp called Line Magnetic LM-5081A for $2500 on eBay. Some US distributors may exist. A good sounding tube amp needs the right preamp tubes and this amp has the best. tubes,

The Line Magnetic should use a Tung Sol 6SU7 to replace the 6SL7 and Sylvania 6SN7 GTA to sound best.

I briefly owned a Rogue Audio Cronus III and loved the hell out of it. That model Cary amp I have no direct experience with, but Cary is a fabulous company; I own their SLP-98 and their CAD300-sei integrated... both keepers. Cary stuff is well-built and leans towards that classic warm, tube sound in their gear.

Might be most cost effective to start with a tubed preamp though. Also, bear in mind power tubes put out a fair amount of heat, so if you're averse to heating your room up a bit, that's probably a +1 to the tubed pre.

@woots 

Lucky us.

@beefeater33 

Free info means we can answer can offer the best advise and not be confined to the specific question.

@lradder 

Cary products are made in America.  I’ve owned several Cary Audio products since the company’s inception and they make their products in North Carolina.  Given their product line has expanded significantly over the years, I can’t definitively say that ALL their products are US made, but they’ve been producing in the US since 1989.  Certainly their tube products are built domestically and likely their SS products as well.  

@ghdprentice 

Agree with your assessment 100%.  Have the same Ref6se and 160S.  Game changer.

You may want to look at a raven audio Blackhawk as well.

Have you made a choice yet?

There are two thoughts to share from me:

One, how much of the tube experience do you want? Push pull amps like Prima Luna and Line Magnetic sound like softish SS amps. So not much different to SS amps.

Two, whilst you are looking for a tube experience have you considered a cheap entry level 300B SUT amp like this one?

I've been VERY happy with the smooth analogue sound of my Primaluna amps, pre-amps, and integrated amps.  The reason there are so few for sale on Audiogon is because Primaluna owners keep them for a long long time.

@diminishedchord  Seen these?

The Absolute Sound list three Rogers High Fidelity on list. Ask him if you can demo the one on eBay??

Sterophile Integrated Amplifiers & Receivers

Dan Wright at Modwright is about to release an Analog Bridge. Keep your stuff and add this. 
 

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2022/08/07/analog-bridge-from-modwright-paf-2022/

Sent from my iPhone

Cary all the way.  Years ago I owned a couple SLI-80's and the Cronus Magnum I.  Cary is all hardwired point to point wired unlike Rogue and sounded way better to me especially in triode mode.

The Rogue Cronus III would be my choice for too many reasons ro list. In the end, go with your ears and heart. Do it for the sake of the music you love.

Person writes a post asking for thoughts on a Rogue vs. a Cary. I like maybe three people actually answer the question and everyone else weighs in with their own junk. If you were in a classroom and answered the teacher's question like this, you'd get a lousy grade.

End Game - Leben CS-600 Integrated Amplifier (32 wpc all tube)

Starting Point - Rogue Sphinx V3 (tube pre w/100 wpc Class D amp; upgrade the tubes to NOS Mullards from the 60's)

I was in the same position. I wanted to try a tube integrated for starters. The preamp and amp separates seemed more complicated and hence expensive. There are slot of choices but I wanted auto bias so I could overcome my fears of new stuff. The reviews pointed to Raven Audio. Plus it is super simple design but incorporated a sub output which I needed. My experience has been life changing. Never have I owned a system so crazy enjoyable. At $2999 the entry level isn’t cheap but the quality and customer support is a game changer in the audio industry 

Rogue ST 100 over on TMR.  Slide that right in and keep your P6.

@wsrrsw yes sir… I have a couple of tube preamps and a stereo tube amp and a monoblock tube pair… So I am biased a bit as well.

There are many ways to skin a cat, and I meander too. 😁

@holmz Fair enough. I’m biased (auto at that) towards tubes. Often these “discussions” meander off track and get a bit predictabley preachy but  despite that often  have sone peachy keen nuggets.

I think you will get an appreciable upgrade from the Emotiva Mono’s with a substantial tube integrated or the holy grail of separates (hard to do with out a bake sale or bank robbery).

@wsrrsw I am not sure.
If the OP did not find the Emotiva Monos grating/shrill/grainy/bright, then adding a tube pre for a bit of warmth may not be really better in terms of HiFi, but it could sound pretty nice.

Then they would have all the watts that they need frost the Emotivas, and get some tube warmth from the pre.

I agree that going to big tube amps would be more a $ hungry way to get there.

I’m a fan of Roger’s High Fidelity. Here’s a EHF-100 MK2 Integrated Amp. Ebay takes 13% so a phone call will save you that and more. I had a PrimaLuna integrated before. Good too for sure. But I moved on to add more power to my power hungry speakers.

I think you will get an appreciable upgrade from the Emotiva Mono’s with a substantial tube integrated or the holy grail of separates (hard to do with out a bake sale or bank robbery).

Lot's of Amps here that will get 'er done.

I have a Rogue Pre and Quad Artera Stereo --> Aria 926s. I like the Rogue gear and those guys always answer the phone. They helped walk me through setting up the phono stage as well. They also make a couple Tube Hybrid (tube/Hypex) amps that are really cool. You might do some research on here about people who run Tubed Pre to SS amplification. Or even Tubed pre to Class D amplification. I like the combination myself.

I also added a REL 9/Tx Sub to cover the low end.

Separates are better

I'd go with a PrimaLuna. They fit into your budget and have a lot of great features.

Since the Focal 926's lack bass, you might add a pair of REL SHO's.  You will find this a game changer.  I was looking at the Focal 926's, but decided they lacked the bass.  A pair if Kanta's would be a large step up.

+1 on speaker match-up concern ...

I can say that my ears appreciate the subtle qualities of tube amplification. (I've owned Cambridge Audio, Peachtree, and Moon Simaudio previously.) Consider the PrimaLuna Evolution integrated amps if as a newbie you’d rather avoid the maintenance issue of adjusting tube bias (or just wondering if the bias is correct), or wondering if an amplifier tube might be bad. Also, their support is responsive. I’m enjoying it as much or more than my previous tube integrated, the Rogue Cronus Magnum. And its WAF scores higher, if that's an issue.

Consider the Danish-built Soekris dac2541 R-2R when you research DACs. Less concern about the technology becoming outdated, and it should suit your budget.

Best wishes!

Your speakers will work fine with a tube amp, especially the Cronus. I have M-180 monoblocks from Rogue paired with a set of Focal Kanta No.2s and when in triode mode I am only pumping 75wpc into them and they sound sublime. I can't speak to the Cary but I am familiar with the Cronus and it is a fine integrated. 

Hi,

I was just on the Decware site and i was impressed, simple yet beautiful and reasonably priced tube amps, (some mods available). Then you have the Willsenton R8 AND the Willsenton R800.. I have the R8 and have changed the tubes to Mullard EL34’s, Sylvanias 6SL7’s and 6SN7’s all on a comment from a gal who noted she had purchased both amps and further commented the R8 beat out her Uniti Atom. And, she went on to say, "if the tubes were changed as noted above it could be an end game amp for some." That was a bold statement. I purchased the R8 soon after and changed the tubes, i now can safely say that amp is not going anywhere. Although i recently went out and snatched up a Kinky Studio and changed the op amps to Staccato. This is no joke, I actually forget i am listening to a solid state amp, I s--t you not. So now i have "two" loves....

Latest iteration of a Decware Amp..

I have an SLI-100 and have been very happy.  I do have a large room, but I can't imagine that amp not playing as well as possible given the room acoustics.  I have driven 3 different sets of speakers with them and they were great with all of them.  Currently driving Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G.