Thanks. Appreciate the AA suggestion. Another thought comes to mind. Power conditioning. I can see the logic in running quality line from the conditioner. In fact, I still use an old, heavy Power Wedge. But, I doubt my tin ears could hear the difference between cords. Heck…the SQ in my truck sounds pretty good to me!
My First DIY Power Cable
Thinking of trying my first DIY power cable. Would like to keep it under couple hundred $$. Looks like it could be done with products from the Furutech site. Any other resource recommendations?
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Your comment reminded me of reading posts about Romex and power cords that were written years ago by Steve Nugent, the owner/designer at Empirical Audio, who said:
If you search Audio Asylum for the word Romex and posts authored by audioengr, which is Steve's moniker at AA, you will find some interesting power distribution topics covered such as:
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Not too likley @chocaholic |
Getting back into high(ish) end after a 15 year hiatus. At 63 my tinnitus prevents me from jumping in too deeply. Enjoying my Sansui AU-717 and my Castle Richmonds, REL Storm ll, MMF-7 ‘table with Goldring Eroica cart. All old stuff but pleasing to my aging ears. Ok, I have to ask. My entire house is wired with hundreds of feet of $2/foot Romex. Right up to the outlet. Is it logical to spend upwards of $3k to bring it the last 6 feet? Why not just make a cord out of the same Romex? An honest question. |
@helmholtzsoul how does the direction matter when the RCAs are carrying an AC signal?
Are screws better than soldering? |
Years back I provided to a few hundred A'goners cheap all-Teflon 13 and 11AWG power cable kits, and star-ground power boxes using the fireproof Belden 83000 series starquad iterations. Indeed, the included shielding was useless, but the fluorocarbon (Teflon) dielectric throughout was real. If you want to make one yourself chase a length of 83754 (4x16AWG), connect it as 2x13 using nice Hubbel and WattGate-quality IEC and be mighty happy with the result. These are only POWER cables...NOT signal cables. Don't get carried away with silly-priced connector jewelry. If you want a smaller cable (13AWG) for front end use use 83704 (4x14) instead. Both are better than the ubiquitous and cumbersome 83803 that should be relegated only for in-wall use as a dedicated 12AWG line for code purposes. Have fun. |
Got the cable tested (continuity, short & voltage). Plugged it into AV amp to test. Then moved it to main rig and plugged into my amp. 10PM Sitting there listening and thinking look at me and my new ability and bang the entire house drops off the grid. I am thinking , did I just cause that? I just went to bed by candle light. This was the action in my backyard and 4AM in drizzling rain.
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@mbolek - One thing to note about this cable if the cable is used with a balanced power supply or used in counties like Norway where the power grid is balanced
If the cable is used on a system that uses a more conventional approach
It will be very interesting to hear your observations Regards - Steve |
Take a look at the link I posted earlier. The math doesn’t work on the cable gauge and, if each wire is the same gauge then the ground with only 4 wires is smaller than the hot and neutral which each have 6 wires. If the posted wire size area is in fact 0.5813mm² then the following sizes would be accurate:
The good news is that 12 awg would be a better size for most power cords compared to 19 awg. |
@mitch2 - thanks for that clarity. A very interesting design. In some ways similar to the Helix DIY cables Based on the effectiveness of my Helix DIY power cables I would actually use
Just thinking out loud 🤔 Regards - Steve |
This link sorts it out with a bit more information. Viborg uses the 6 black and 6 red wires as positive/neutral wires, and the 4 yellow wires as ground. I would be interested to hear it but there are a couple design choices that I would not have made, plus the math is wrong on the linked website:
From the website:
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@mbolek - that's an interesting cable you have posted. Which wires did you use for the Live
Have you tried different variations? Cheers |
@jbuhl Don't stress. Focus on good conductors, good connectors and secure connections... Lots of knowledge from Steve and the other folks. I have used both Viborg and SonarQuest. Both are very good. Even though I prefer silver over pure copper, I have no issues using rhodium based connectors. Nice Easter sale going on at partsconnexion, so may be a good time to pick up more DIY stuff... |
Making a decision on "sound" for rhodium based on conductivity is incorrect. The "conductivity" of the metal really does not dictate how good it will sound. You need to experiment within your system to decide if rhodium is good or not. For those who have tried rhodium and disliked it, I believe it is from one of 3 reasons: 1. They did not take the time to fully burn in (or break in, whatever) the conductor. Rhodium requires a good 300-350 hours to fully burn in. There are stages during this process where it is extremely painful to listen to. Just be patient. Many have discarded rhodium because they were not patient enough for the full burn-in process. 2. If the rhodium completed burn in, it could be a synergy problem with other components in the system. When a system is built a certain way, rhodium is the most transparent, revealing and realistic sounding result. If you get a bright or harsh or sterile result, it is mostly due to synergy with another component. Gold-plated conductors have a much warmer sound and can mask the "sterile" or "bright" character of some electronics. 3. The person just has a prejudice against rhodium because of the low conductivity.
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@twoleftears - yes I used Viborg once - they are about the same quality and level of performance as the Vanguard products -
Alpha wire - is is basically the same thiing as UP-OCC wire - it has a very long chrystaline srtucture.
They would all have very similar abilities WRT signal conveyance. I use the solid UP-OCC wire (Hookup wire) or the Neotech UP-OCC (Hookup wire) both from Parts Connexion But some people pefer the Furutech At this level of perofrmance I think there is very little between them Hope that helps.- Steve
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Viborg seems to make some pretty good stuff that they sell at relatively low prices. Here is an example of their pure copper blade ac plugs. They also make other types of wire connectors and other stuff. Furutech's Alpha is a two-step process that they apply to a variety of metals. The process (described here) involves:
The various metals/conductors used by Furutech that may undergo Alpha treatment, include:
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@jbuhl - The choise is actually pretty simple - ask yourself what is the main metal used in the plug...
This is all based on the Conductivity of the metal
What does the metal impact?
So when you are buying plugs think about them in relation to the attributes of the metals listed above. Buying expensive brand names may not get you the best plug either I have tried many plugs and the two I recommend and use are
Both are available from Ebay for a reasonable price
Hope that helps - Steve
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I like the looks of those Iego plugs and I also like how most of their verbiage seems focused on materials, manufacturing processes, and performance instead of the pseudo-technological jargon I see from some other manufacturers of audio products. I had a hard time figuring out where/how to purchase those plugs based on the website information. There doesn’t seem to be much information out there on Iego. Through a Google search, I finally found them on Amazon and it seems Alex Sound Technology has a new Amazon Store site. Alex Sound Technology is apparently located in Windermere, Florida, near Orlando, but I couldn’t find much information about them. Are they newer? Have you purchased from them? I would definitely try the Iego plugs and will probably go ahead and order some from the Amazon site. |
Another great option for connectors are IeGO IEC's and Edison plugs. Take a peek: https://alexsoundtech.com/iego/materials-technology I have found them to sound better than their Furutech or Oyaide counterparts. Silver is crazy expensive but sound very, very good. Their gold, silver and rhodium devices use Furukawa copper and offer great performance at a competitive price. |
@mitch2 You really know about Oyaide power cords. I like them and their plugs along with Furutech. However in the value stakes I think Oyaide have it. I have an Oyaide R1 wall socket which is Beryllium Copper, the top Furutech is double the price. Oyaide market their VONDITA Xe cord as a power (amp) type cord but I've found it's extremely detailed. Putting any power cord on my master clock reveals a lot. It was far too detailed (read harsh) for my master clock. It's since found it's place on my ethernet optical fiber box, on which it does a wonderful job. |
I found the Oyaide Tunami v2 power cable to sound good on my power amplifiters. It uses the high polymer polyolefin insulation discussed in the information linked a couple of posts previously for their VONDITA Xe cord. It also uses PCOCC-A wire, copper foil shielding, and a Carbon PE layer. At 5.5 mm squared, it is a bit larger than 10 awg per run so should be sufficient for just about any power amplifier, which is what I used them for. What I don’t understand, is the polarity between their attention to detail related to the wire conductivity in the power cable but then their use of plug connector blades made from deoxidized Phosphorus Bronze, which has relatively low conductivity in the range of about 11-20 IACS. I made cords from their P-079/C-079 plugs/IECs and Furutech FP-Alpha-3 cable to power my monoblocks and the sound was good but not as dynamic and rich as I hear from my 7awg WE wire cords that use Furutech FI-11 plugs, and also not as good on my amps as the Oyaide Tunami v2 cords that I now use on my preamp. The 7awg WE cords are very similar to the well-regarded 7-Plus American Series from TWL. |
Furutech is a good start in my opinion. Check out VH Audio for cables and connectors. Another good resource is Sonic Craft for Neotech power cables and connectors. |
Recently bought one of these, Oyaide's latest cable. Check out the specs. Oyaide plugs are used by Tara Labs amongst others. A great front end cable. https://www.audiohobby.eu/et/power-cable/15480-oyaide-schuko-power-cord-18m-vondita-xe.html |
@mitch2 ding… I think you win the prize with your last sentence!! Are there variations in materials, use, signature etc? Sure. But, everyone thinks their opinion is the best. To their ears, probably is. It doesn’t really matter, it’s all a big pissing match anyway. Regardless of the connector type, materials used etc, if it sounds good to the person listening it’s all good. I do believe pure copper to be the basic go to when it comes to cabling, particularly power. It is tried and true, and the Furutech copper connectors are great for starter DIY. Wire? Same thing. Pure copper. Gets one in the game, is generally easy to work with and produces a really nice cable if done properly. Getting into the esoterics of plating etc. is a matter of preference, not necessity to be explored as knowledge and experimentation develop. |
Not sure what would be the appeal of Beryllium Copper as an audio connector/conductor. That copper alloy is usually spec’ed when hardness, strength, and corrosion resistance is needed. I had a set of Beryllium Copper golf clubs (irons) once. However, wrt conductivity, Beryllium Copper is less than 50 percent IACS.
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OK you win. I don't know what you won, but you won. Rhodium is great.. Do you mind if I keep my red copper, silver over red copper, pure silver, or gold over copper or silver. I'll keep my speakers and equipment too. Just saying I use to go to the shows because I was in charge of equipment there. That's where I met most of the guys I hang out with. We were mechanics but I loved music too. I was into car audio competition too. My kids suckered me into it. I was tired of fixing alternators and adding batteries and all the thing kids like.. They love rhodium, they didn't care either. Just what it cost.. Spoiled kids with horrible hearing.. Systems were PRETTY though. But mine sounded better and won the competition usually at 1/10 the price.. Sound doesn't come out of a spray can or pricy parts. It comes from YEARS of listening and pleasing my ears. The strange thing is most of the people I know have come to the same conclusion. Were just mechanics. What the heck would burn-in mean verses burnt up.. Not a single thing.. But neither term has a place where professionals are involved. For fun maybe.. I'll stick with williewonka (I have for years) and people that make cables that work better than most, not good, or good enough, but BETTER. Rhodium and HiFi, ok if you say so.. I can't hear that nugget to save my life.. I guess the other 20+ guys are not hearing thing too. Strange my wife can hear rhodium through small planars, all the way down to the wall plug. Smart lady, copper and silver all the way.. She does like a tungsten construct that I don't care for. Good ears with expensive taste in cables.. |
@auxinput +1 With all the resources at Furutech's disposable they have good reasons for using Rhodium but usually offer an identical product in gold. Personally I've found Beryllium Copper (Oyaide) to be the sweet spot between the two. However some components still favour Rhodium. |
You can call it whatever you want "burn-in" / "break-in". It all means the same thing. Trying to talk down to someone because of your opinion on the "correct dictionary term" is not someone who I can respect. Additionally, rhodium can be the great revealer, in the sense that it is very revealing and will reveal the flaws you have in your electronics and cabling. These are flaws that gold-plating or un-plated copper will NOT reveal because they are ultimately more forgiving. If you are not liking the rhodium in your system, it is likely that a particular piece of equipment is causing that sonic signature. Can a system sound good with gold or unplated copper? Sure, absolutely. But you are never going to get 100% full transparency, resolution and realism that you will with rhodium plated connectors. I have been through all RMAF rooms and different systems from $10,000 on up to $200,000 and even the million dollar room. Pretty much most of them use gold-plated connectors and silver-plated. I will say that many (if not most) room did not hit the mark on a good high resolution real sounding system (even systems that were 6 figures). Choose whatever you want and whatever feels best to you. |
Not a fan of rhodium here either. I am generally ok with gold over copper and also like unplated copper. Interesting thing with Furutech is that the FI-11M(CU) plugs I recommended were shown to be made from Alpha - pure copper conductor on their website but Alpha phosphor bronze conductor on the cut sheet I downloaded from Partsconnexion. I was always of the impression those plugs were constructed from pure copper. Phosphor bronze basically sucks as a conductive alloy, sort of like brass. OTOH, Tellurium copper, which is sometimes used where strength/durability is necessary, is generally rated at about 90 percent or higher IACS. Pure copper would be my go to, with gold plated pure copper as a second choice, like these spades from Furutech or these from Vampire which, IMO punch way above their weight - here too. It seems there should be some pure copper ac plugs/IECs that don't break the bank. Maybe something at Ali Express like these from Viborg (VM501 or VM511)? |
Have you ever tried a rhodium plated connector?!?! (after 300 hour burn in, that is). I do understand that rhodium is very low down on the list with regards to conductivity, but that is only part of the story. You really need to listen to how rhodium plated elements sound.
Good Lord, it’s break-in NOT burn-in. These are not Valves or Tubes, they BREAK IN. I learned that from one of my Journeyman. What you say shows what you know.. I have tested rhodium and MANY of the cable and cable connectors. That is WHY I recommended copper, red copper, silver or silver clad over copper. Just like what Erik said, and I mentioned. Rhodium is WAY to hard and a poor conductor for audiophile use. It’s a total sham and VERY cheap to cover base materials like brass and iron. I would choose LEAD over rhodium. It’s also what Erik experienced with Furutech. A cheap clad over a CHEAP base alloy, with a whopping price tag. As I said rhodium is for very harsh enviro conditions. It was NEVER intended for HiFi use. They use it because it’s shinny. Some people like shinny thing. If they work well, I like shinny thing also. Rhodium isn’t one of them.. LOL Gold over copper or silver is a much better and easier construct to BREAK-IN, not burn in.. Rhodium over copper NEVER, total junk.. It’s shinny though.. LOL Next question, "Which end of the RCA do I plug in". Enjoy your build. Listen to williewonka, he really does make the absolute best cable out their. Hands down.. UP-OCC is all the rage even in HD applications. That's what I build and do for a LIVING.. Build industrial ENVIRO cables for heavy duty applications and equipment.. |
Have you ever tried a rhodium plated connector?!?! (after 300 hour burn in, that is). I do understand that rhodium is very low down on the list with regards to conductivity, but that is only part of the story. You really need to listen to how rhodium plated elements sound. In many many experiments, rhodium plated connectors is the only way to get the highest amount of resolution and transparency. Gold plated connectors have a warmer sound and you lose high frequencies as well as deep tight bass. Silver/silver-plated will be bright because they tend to push the upper mids, but they do not have very good ultra-high frequencies and the bass is typically weak. One approach is to use silver/silver-plated wires with unplated or gold-plated connectors. However, the best result is using pure copper conductors with rhodium plated connectors. |
@jbuhl - Since it is your first DIY Power Cable and you are on a budget I would recomment the following
This will get you a very good power cable with the minimal of effort. The UP-OCC stranded copper wire is very good because it can take a lot of bending/handling and still provide excellent performance The solid UP-OCC copper wire with Teflon insulation is better, but it is more dificult to handle The cables in DIY Helix Cables Website are among the very best out there, but are a little more complex to build.
Hope that helps - Steve |
I'm the same way about Furutech. Rhodium connectors are one of the worst conductors, you might as well uses nickel. The difference is nickel/lead RCAs need to be cleaned but is a lot softer. Rhodium is for severe enviro conditions, and it looks pretty. It's WAY to hard on non Rhodium connectors. Red copper or silver over copper. I'd use gold plating over red copper as a 3rd pick. The rest has it's place but never in audio use.. Automotive or heavy equipment, yes.. It's part of my job making cable (s) for just about any mobile or trackable equipment. We use Rhodium around salt or brackish water. BTW their is a direction on the cable, you have to look at it under a 100-1000x. You'll see how it was pushed through the extrusion dies. That is the single best thing you can do to build your cable. Get the direction right, don't touch the exposed wire with your hands/fingers and use contact enhancers before you tighten the securement screws. Get the thinnest shrink tube you can find and use braided armor. There is a conductive armor that be used in a grounding / shield app. I personally don't use that type of mumbo jumbo. I've used battery packs to check the nulls in cable when it's buried in lattice or 100 feet in the air. It proves there are NO leaks for the lack of a better term. Other than that it's a worthless test as far a sound goes.. Cables are easy to make. Follow the rules and you'll build a BETTER cable than you can buy for 10X the money.. |
You didn’t say which component you are planning to power with your cable. IME, high current power amps and even preamps like large wires while digital front end components can get by with less copper but do better with good shielding. Also IME, the Furutech stuff works quite well for simple DIY, and Eric made a good observation about the current 20% off ac products sale at Partsconnexion. I like the Furutech unplated copper plugs and IECs. As for the power cable, Furutech has a variety and I am not familiar with all of them. I have used the FP-3TS20 (14awg) and found it to be a good basic cable for front end components and preamps. For power cables I like having more copper so you might check out this 10awg Oyaide Oyaide Tunami V2 cable that is available from VH Audio. I made two of them and IME, they sound great but the wire is really stiff. I suspect this Neotech NEP-3200 OCC Copper Power Cable from VH Audio would also be great for amplifiers. If you are more adventurous, you could consider making cables using NOS Western Electric wire like this 10awg twisted pair. I have not purchased from this seller but the pictured wire looks authentic. Put a tinned braided shield (or, Interference-Shielding Expandable Sleeving) over the pair and counter-spiral a 10awg ground wire, connect the shield at the plug end only, connect the other wires at both ends, cover with techflex and you have a nice PC for your amplifier at a very low cost. BTW, that is the same Western Electric wire used by TWL in their well-regarded American series power and speaker cables. I use doubled up runs (7awg) for the two PCs powering my amplifiers, but they are difficult to terminate when doubled. You might also look at this website for some interesting DIY cable configurations that seem to be popular. Good luck. |