My experience with the First Watt F7

Hey @wolf_garcia if you don’t mind me asking, which output tube set are you running in your Inspire to compare to the XA-25? The other reason I ask is I found my former DH Hot Rod Inspire with smallish transformers just not have the drive, sound stage, or presentation I was hoping for. Some of it speaker match related, yes. I still run one of Dennis’ former 98 preamps too, was part of my former Cary amp setups too, fwiw. Also a xa25 fan, and coda fan, and a few around me comparing FW and Pass lower watt amps on occasion. Being located right near both factories and have a bunch of pass friends around me, and with a dealer who’s carried both in the past - fun to compare. Wanted to keep trying tubes to see how close I could get to the sound you mention.

Went a different direction with my tube mono blocks and super glad I did. Running the same tubes I had in my former Inspire, now in QS Mono 120s, its very nice. Against the status quo, my QS are tweaked up some with really good caps and better small signal/driver tubes. While not truly SET or strapped triode like Dennis did with his former PSE amps, I find these better for my own setup, more true to the sound, cleaner, better separation, more expansive, and when the stout transformers warm up for 60+ minutes, it’s good. Used the exact same type/model caps I had in some of the former amps too, in order to keep it closer for comparisons.

Curious to know, have you ever had the chance to hear or try a pair of newer well-tubed Quicksilver tube monos with your aforementioned Hersey III, IVs?

I listened at length to the AGDs at Axpona and was impressed with some of what I heard. I attribute much of this to the speakers and the synergy of the components. What I didnt like about the AGDs was a marked lack of depth and the sense that the music never left the speakers entirely. What was superb was the sense of correctness of the individual instruments, but they never seemed to entirely meld as a cohesive unit. Best  representation, to date, of this promising technology. 

It’s rare to see much if any criticism of First Watt stuff...in fact mostly raves. I’ve never heard a First Watt amp but based on the balance of reviews of them I’d put this one in the outlier bin (my preference for Heresy IIIs over IVs goes into that bin so hey, I get it). I’ve been a tube abuser for a long time and earlier this year decided to try a Pass XA-25 after getting worn down by all the ridiculous positive opinions. Consequently, my Dennis Had SE tube amp has been on vacation since the 25 showed up. I actually hooked up the Had amp today...it sounded great, and reminded my how much I like the vibe of tubes. Put the 25 back in the heap and it’s astonishing...kind of sucked me into the Nelson world although I really don’t know what his other designs sound like...the XA-25 isn’t designed like any other Pass Labs amp, doesn’t look like ’em really, and clearly is, to quote George Greenough*, allowing me to explore "the innermost limits of pure fun."

*George Greenough is a genius surfer which sounds like a contradiction in terms, but there ya go.

@pani,

I agree!

Mike

Those who get "flow" will immediately recognised the lack of it, others won't. Such is the nature of this parameter. SETs do it the best because it is.provides the simplest path to the signal. Interestingly this is true for both tubes and SS based SET (Single ended topology). That's why Pass SIT amps don't have this issue. They are single ended. First watt J2 is worth a try. 

Sometimes flow is exaggerated, basically distortion. Notes bleeding into next note which makes the sound "slow". Many tube amps are guilty of this. Transient response getting muddied is also equally detrimental to musical justice. Not easy to find right amps🙂

@roxy54 

Having never owned a First Watt or Pass Lab amp, owning one or at least hearing one has been on my list as well.  Kind of sad that the F7 didn’t work for you. At 25 watts a side, it would have been my first choice as well.

I have the FirstWatt F8. I am unable to find any of the issues you reported for the F7. Now this might be because I don't understand, in gut terms or rather in ear terms if you will, what they really refer to.

My preamp is a Van Alstine Transcendence RB 10 tube box. The speakers are Focal Aria 906's.

I've had other preamps in the system, and the sound had problems like being too detailed or bright (for photographers: like oversharpened images).

I had a Quicksilver Integrated. It produced very good sound. My F8 system just gives more detail while the sound stays whole and natural.

Greetings........Sit-3 owner, here.........it powers Cornwall IV's, playing high-res files streamed through Qobuz. Suffice it to say that I am a very Happy Camper!
 

@charles1dad I've not heard the AGD, but based on reviews from trusted folks, the AGD's are somewhat closer to tube sound qualities vs most class a ss, cool looking as well,

sns,

I'm with Charles. I would be very interested in your assessment of the AGD amps.

@sns

You have considerable High End audio listening and DIY experience.

knowing the make up of your audio system and reading your insightful posts, I feel that I have a good read on where you’re coming from. I’d be quite interested in your take on an AGD amplifier as compared with your 845 and 300b amplifiers.
I have heard many fine transistor amplifiers, but tubes (Particularly SET) continue to hold the upper hand with regard to “naturalness “. That “breath of life” you refer to.

Charles

@dlcockrum

my comment was not intended to be accusatory but, rather, preventative.

No problem whatsoever. Written text is harder to assess intent sometimes in comparison to the spoken word. 👍

There is no doubt that some have  moved from tube/SET to First Watt amplifiers just as the converse holds true.

Charles

@roxy54 i completely get your disappointment with the F7 in your system and in no way wish to challenge your observations. Many reviews are suspect , especially those that involve a well known and well respected designer or brand. You heard what you heard…

For sure, I'd never write off the FW amps in general, amp/speaker synergy so important.

I've been extremely interested in the AGD's as well, seen some nice reviews from folks I trust.

i realize that all of the First Watt amps have different topologies and semiconductors and from what I've read they all sound different. It was a little unsettling that th professional reviews that I read didn't seem to mention any negatives with the F7. I guess that different ears hear differently, but I owned another solid state class A integrated that didn't sound this way at all.

@charles1dad my comment was not intended to be accusatory but, rather, preventative.

I was using Cary Audio 2a3 SET monoblocks to amplify the mids and highs of my fully horn loaded triamplified DIY speakers.  After reading the Six Moons review of the First Watt F3 I bought one to try with my horns.  I liked it so well I bought a second F3 and used them to amplify the mids and highs of my horns.  I sold the 2a3 SETs.  After owning many different tube components since 1973 I am now tube free, and my system sounds great

@dlcockrum so everyone please be careful with generalizations re: “First Watt sound quality”.

It does not seem to me that folks are generalizing F.W. sonic presentation but rather expressing their experiences in specific instances, unless my inference is off. No question that F.W. amplifiers have many happy owners.
 

And who doesn’t respect Nelson Pass and his long audio design history? It always depends on what one is in search of. @roxy54 specifically referenced the F7. I see his point given the listening experience.

Charles

@roxy54 

I believe it was me that asked for your opinion in another thread. Thanks for sharing your observations and sorry it didn’t work out.

Each First Watt model is different, often drastically so. The First Watt SIT series is very different than the other/later models so everyone please be careful with generalizations re: “First Watt sound quality”.

IME with a First Watt M2, good but not very moving. SS sound for sure.

I was a die hard tube fan but now live with my destination AGD Audions.

First amp to continually bring deep emotion with no objectionable SS sound or tubey sound. But the best of both. Just tried my M2 in my system and breathed deeply when putting the AGDs back in.

"without sounding forced" was an added phrase to describe musical flow that a friend used when he was describing the sound of his new speakers paired with an amp we were reviewing in common.  Once I heard my amp with his speakers all the sudden "musical flow" made more sense. Effortless, musical, all there now...

@mulveling

And "musical flow" is one of those impossible-to-quantify attributes that I consider absolutely essential - if a component doesn’t have that, it simply won’t work out here, no matter how much it might "wow" in other aspects

So very true. There’s a natural fluidity when I listen to live acoustical music that’s simply the antithesis of mechanical and stiff.

Charles

+1 thanks for sharing your experience! Too many of us fail to report the "didn’t work out" side of things; certainly not with as much detail as you have. It’s a missing aspect of our hobby - the overwhelming proportion of positive reviews & comments on gear doesn’t align with the sales churn witnessed on 2nd-hand marketplaces :)

I’ll admit the curiosity on First Watt F series amps just crossed my mind the other day. Still would like to try a Pass Labs or FW amp on my Tannoys sometime.

And "musical flow" is one of those impossible-to-quantify attributes that I consider absolutely essential - if a component doesn’t have that, it simply won’t work out here, no matter how much it might "wow" in other aspects.

Roxy, I am not surprised with your experience given your familiarity with tube amplification. I have pretty much given up trying any solid-state alternative amplification since I am never satisfied with the tone, spatial qualities etc.

Many years ago I had a demo of an Atmasphere amp in a salon in Princeton NJ with ProAc Response 2 speakers, and it was very memorable. Those amps have a see-through transparency that is unlike anything else that I have ever heard. If I could afford them I would own a set. If I had any criticism at all, it would be that they had a bit (not much) less solidity or substance to the holographic images than some other designs, but I could easily live with that. 

If your speakers have a higher impedance, I cant recommend OTLs strongly enough. In my experience nothing can compare to the clarity and correctness of an OTL. If you like a great deal of flavor from your tube amps you might find OTLs a bit cold sounding, but I think this is simply a lack of distracting coloration. I have owned all types of tube amps and nothing has compared with OTLs. Atma-sphere makes a 60W OTL that is excellent. Despite what anyone says, transformers are an impediment. 

@roxy54 thank you for sharing your experience. You may have saved me at least one more buy/try/resale situation. Coming from various mosfet ss amps over decades and moving over to all-tube many years ago, I wondered if I had missed out on the latest fw iterations following Nelson’s passion to continually try different output transistors and circuit designs. Each iteration sounding different from the last. A few colleagues I was paralleling my own tube amps with including SET, PP, and strapped triode stuff ended up trying the xa25 for a while. While they liked it, all of them ended up sticking with their tube monos. I keep my eye open for a good one in the 30-60w range to alternate in once in a while, but nothing really peaking interest any more after rotating a few myself. If you try others, please keep us in mind to post more, and keep up the good work. Thanks.

Charles and sns,

Yes, I agree with you both. I did own and regret selling a 300b based integrated amp that had all of those qualities, but my modified Mac 2105 has the same qualities in spades, and it was even so similar in direct comparison to the 300b when I owned that.

Both have the ability to simply pass through them the feeling of air, and a realistic and complete picture of the performance. "Breath of life" as you said is a good descriptor.

With the F7, I always felt that it was trying unsuccessfully to piece together a plasticky picture of the performance.

Someone asked which speakers I was using. I am using the Klipsch Epic CF-4 version 1. They are not ruthless in any way, but they are revealing of any change made to the system.

All of this was really surprising to me considering the small parts count and deliberately simple and direct signal path of the design. Further proof that you can never guess what something is going to sound like. Of course I have to say that this was my ears on my system.

I’ve heard the F7 at a friend house , it’s a good amp if match correctly, my friend is using it with omega HO Alnico, If you want more get the Pass x25 amp.

I used F7 with Rowland Capri 2 preamp, Avalon Ascendant ll speakers in smallish room, all Cerious Matrix cables, and everything sounded great...CD was Aesthetix Romulus Eclipse, tuner a Don Scott upgrade McIntosh MR-74

@roxy54 I've auditioned a number of ss amps since going tube in early 2000's, always the same deficiencies you're hearing. Tube amps, specifically SET have provided the greatest sense of live performers in room. I hear it as immediacy or closeness to performers, this very much induced by sense of air, spaciousness around each performer/image which flows within a sound field with various numbers of performers/images with that same spaciousness.. This sounds far more like live concerts I've attended vs more sharply defined images I get from non tube, and to lesser extent push pull tube amps.

The other aspect of tubes, specifically SET, and high efficiency speakers that further reinforces sense of live performers in room, is the amazing micro dynamics that such a system can provide. I like how Brits say valves rather than tubes, very apt description, human lungs are valves, and I hear the breath of life when playing music on my system.

I had itch to try First Watt amp with my Klipschorns prior to purchase of my 300B monoblocks, kinda suspected I may not be entirely happy with pairing based on a few reviews comparing SET and FW with Klipschorns. Your review confirms what these reviewers heard.

@roxy54 The amp had no "flow", and even though individual instruments were well separated and clear sounding, nothing hung together like a real group playing together. Each instrument sounded like a separate event that didn’t relate to the others

Now that’s an interesting and significant finding. This musical flow/pace/rhythm along with tone and timbre are make or break parameters for me. If an audio component can not get this right, no other positive attributes can make up for this deficiency. I can appreciate your disappointment.

Roxy in my experience I find that musical flow and cohesion a strength of good quality tube amplifiers (As well as terrific tone/timbre abilities).

Charles

@roxy54, what speakers were you driving with the F7?  I've never owned a First Watt or a Pass Labs amp but I've been tempted to try one for my Cornwall IVs.

I owned a First Watt, cant remember the model, and could never get it to sound correct to my ears. Sold it and the person that bought it was very pleased.