MM Cartridge Recommendation

I agree with aberyclark’s recommendation. I haven’t had tons of cartridges, but I LOVE the Ortofon 2m bronze, for its detail and musical warmth. 

I agree that the 2M LvB is an intriguing offering. It lacks the upper mid-bass hump of the standard 2M Black (which I speculate is because of the relatively heavy aluminium stylus) and is even more “neutral” (forgive the abuse of meaning). On that basis, I doubt that the OP would be satisfied. I’d suggest, as has others, that he try one of the cheaper Grados or Nagoakas to get a feel for their house sound and navigate from there. (FWIW, my own pick would be the Soundsmith Carmen, which I owned and feel is more musically enjoyable than the notionally superior Zephyr that followed.)

It is interesting, curious even, that not one mention has been made of Ortofon's LVB stylus, which is an upgrade for the 2M Black and fully compatible with existing bodies.  This would be my first stop in the quest you are on.  In fact if you go this route and don't like it, get in touch with me and I'll buy it from you for my 2M Black.

I've got a Clearaudio Charisma MM and I am very happy with it!

A couple of thoughts:

First, do you have another well-known source (say, digital). If the system is still not sufficiently warm for your taste, and you have tried the free stuff (speaker and seat placements, room tuning with furnishings and rugs, etc), then it’s not the source. I personally have found every B&W I have heard somewhat sterile, but I haven’t heard the 705. 

Then, on cartridges: I’ve run a 2M Black for five years now. It was meant as a temporary cartridge while I saved for something “better”, but on a my table and arm I haven’t been persuaded to change. The stylus profile means that set-up is, well, fussy.  (Thankfully I can adjust VTA precisely.) It’s unforgiving of unclean records. And I hated it when I heard it demo’d on my previous table and arm — go figure. 

So I can understand curiosity to change. Before spending any money on what is a bit of a crapshoot, have you listened to the audio files of the MM comparison (including the 2M Black) that Michael Fremer ran on his site a few years back?

Good luck with your quest — Ping

Dear @mr_m  : That Clearaudio was the Virtuoso black wood and as always the quality performance is tonearm/system dependent.

I made it its review and does not showed the " problem " you experienced with:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-clearaudio-virtuoso-wood-cartridge

R.

The Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood is closer to your budget and a very nice cartridge and will work well with your table.  And yes, it is easy to snap off the cantilever, so be careful.  I like the sound of the Virtuoso better than the MP-500, which I also have and it should be a better match with your table.

Other manufacturers have been selling replacement styli since it was invented by Walter Stanton for Pickering cartridges more than 50 years ago. It was innovative design that made MM cartridges more convenient than MC.

*Walter O. Stanton was Norman C. Pickering’s plant manager. Mr. Stanton invented the interchangeable needle grips Pickering used and later purchased Pickering & Company. A sister brand to Stanton.


It’s interesting that Stanton and Pickering made low output / low impedance MM cartridges too, those low impedance versions designed for MC phono input (sut or headamp), but still with interchangeable needle grips (user replaceable styli). 

A big advantage with SoundSmith other than excellent sound quality for the money is that the rebuild cost is only 20% of retail. I know of no other cartridge manufacturer that comes anywhere close.

One of the best cartridges in the past were the B&O MMC 1/2 great MI performers that had fixed stylus design, was not at random designers decision.

When I asked Peter Ledermann (SoundSmith, who designed and manufactured B&O cartridges) in this topic: “what is a well designed MM/MI or MC from the past (not new)” ?

He replied under nickname retipper:


“Obviously Strain Gauge designs, although none have survived well, which is why I don’t work on them. Early Fairchild Stereo units. Some still are fantastic. Stax, for its cleverness, Dynavector 23 and similar, due to low mass (but terribly fragile), some Ortofon MI designs, GRACE, and of course the B&O, upon which my line has evolved from.”

I’m glad to see vintage GRACE in his answer, and of course his own cartridges now are better than B&O from the past. Most of them are fixed-coil type, but his price for stylus/cantilever replacement for his own carts is the lowest on the market (this is huge benefit compared to other manufacturers, the reason is simple - SoundSmith do not make a profit on stylus/cantilever replacement for his own SoundSmith cartridges, this is why the cost is user friendly).

If you need a cartridge with fixed stylus/cantilever that you can’t replaceable yourself then buy a Low Output MC cartridge. Any MC cartridge can be refurbished or replaced by the manufacturer or some re-tipper. This is time consuming, often very expensive and inconvenient. 


The benefit of MM and MI is user friendly stylus replacement that can be purchased anytime without sending your cartridge anywhere. Normally we have spare styli for our MM or MI carts and trust me (I have many LOMC too) that life is much easier with MM/MI and sound quality of the best MM/MI is outstanding. I could easily live with MM (without any MC), but I want to have all types of cartridges (including Moving Flux). 

Raul, 

Years ago I had a Clearaudio cartridge that was highly reviewed and thought of. Can't remember the model. I liked it but it was a little incisive sounding in the higher freq. Dare I say just a smidgen bright? No adjustments I did would correct this. Does Clearaudio carts still have this quality? I still believe they have high quality components though.
Cheers,
Tim

I have experience with running the both the Ortofon 2M Black and the AT VM760SLC the Aria integrated phono stage. The Ortofon will defintely be the warmer of the two. I found the AT to be a tad too bright for my tastes at times. 

I have since upgraded to a Herron VTPH-1 phono stage which seems to have tamed some of the brightness of the AT but still retains lots of air and detail. 

I sold the Ortofon becuase it is not very forgiving with vinyl that is in less than prestine condition. For me, it tended to bring out all of the imperfections, ticks, and pops. 

Dear @dsjs4 : Yes that Clearaudio is made by AT under Clearaudio specs not under AT ones and yes it has not owner stylus replacement and this is far away to be a disadvantage but the other way around:

in any stylus replacement cartridge design the whole part that hold the cantilever/stylus is way resonant against the cartridge with no moving replacement stylus part. So you can have higher cartridge signal degradation with that with the fixed design.

One of the best cartridges in the past were the B&O MMC 1/2 great MI performers that had fixed stylus design, was not at random  designers decision.

Repeat, it's an advantage and is a characteristic that shares with LOMC designs.

I like Nagaoka too but looking to your audio system items my vote still goes for Clearaudio.

R.

For a warmer sound, try the Nagaoka 300 or 500.  I have one.  I think it would sound beautiful with almost all systems.

Some of the best carts in the world have an “unprotected cantilever”. Just use a bit more caution. Minor issue if even that. Like any subject in the HiFi world, you will get a million opinions. You’ll have to try somethings for yourself and see where you land. A replaceable styli is a nice feature of some MM carts, but shouldn’t be a deal killer alone.

@geof3

If you’re talking about VdH, Lyra and a few Dynavector (with unprotected cantilevers) when you think they are "some of the best in the world" I want to admit that all those cartridges are LOMC (not MM or MI). 

But the OP asked for MM at $800, and user replaceable stylus is a MUST HAVE for MM at that price.

Yes, "it shouldn’t be a deal killer alone", if someone can spend for example $14 000 they could buy this Coreless Straight-Flux Cartridge, and each time they will have to ship it back to the manufacturer for stylus/cantilever replacement just for another $2000+.

Here is the review for Seiryu (Blue Dragon).

Interesting that $14k Seiryu (Blue Dragon) Coreless straight-flux cartridge was designed by Hiromu Meguro, former design assistant of the GRACE F-8 cartridge and principal designer of F-9 cartridge, when he was with Shinagawa Musen Co. Ltd (Japan) in the 70s.

Here have been my thoughts so far:


The Audio Technica - seem like they may really present some great sound at a good value. Found NOS AT150MLX for $479 which might be worth it just to try that series. Also the new VM760SLC seems to be the replacement. Anyone have experience with either.

1) AT cartridges are great for sure (you can’t go wrong with any of them).

My favorite are AT-ML170 and AT-ML180 OCC, those are different from any new AT (MM) design because of their unique Boron Pipe and Beryllium Pipe cantilevers and anti-resonance ceramic base. AT discontinued those models in the 90s, recently I bought a few NOS samples. MicroLine stylus. They are definitely very expensive, NOS stylus alone cost nearly $1k. I like those cartridges very much.

*** If you will search audiogon you will find these QUOTES from the Audiogon contributors (let me post it here from my old notes I made when I was in the market for a decent MM):

"Today I received all the pieces of Audio Technica AT-ML170 LC-OFC. Body from Japan and NOS original stylus from elsewhere in the USA. For the first hour at 1.5g or so it is the best tracker I’ve ever had, really clings. Will continue further run-in and evaluation. Thanks Raul!" - Siniy123

"Buying a used AT-ML170 was the best analog move I’ve ever done. Second best, buying a used DV 10xGoldL. Two reference carts that will blow away carts costing $$$$$ more." - Kiko65

"The 103Fl with the Paratrace stylus is my top MC. Better than my $3500 Benz Micro Ruby 3. Where it falls a little short is when it gets compared with MM/MI’s like my Signet TK10ML MK2, TK7CLa/155LC Sonus Dimension 5 or the AT ML170". - Don

"In my experience, AT ML-170 OCC is one of the must to have cartridges (MC or MM) along the 180 OCC." - Raul

"I also owned an AT ML-170 at one time. This was one of the best ones I ever heard,near the Signet TK10.Anyway, just my take on these models." - Travbrow

"The AT 170 ML is fantastic at letting me hear, study, and analyze the tone of a particular instrumentalist on a recording; I can’t think of any MC thatI have owned that would let me do that to the same degree." -Frogman




2) Another interesting article in the back issue of TAS (The Analog Sound, Issue 40) magazine called "Assessing the State-of-the-Art in Storage Media". In this, J. Tammblyn Henderson reports on a listening session comparing digital master tape, analogue master tape, direct-to-disc lacquer and the "live" mike feed; the report consists of a long conversation among J.Boyk, Keith Johnson, Doug Sax, and J. Tammblyn Henderson himself.

*** Below is a QUOTE from that article in TAS magazine

What cartridge could have the "lowest distortion of all," "uncanny" resolution, better than master tapes?

Kavi Alexander, auteur of the remarkable Water Lily Acoustics series of analogue vinyl discs, is monitoring disc production by comparing test pressings to the master tape. What cartridge is he using?Another moving magnet, this time the TECHNICS EPC 100 mk4. But he describes the AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-ML170 as very similar, and very close to the actual sound of the tape. In this comparison, he says, virtually no moving coil does so well; most have seriously apparent colorations.

The contrast between these views of moving magnet cartridges and usual audiophile opinion is striking. On the one hand, we have assurances from these leaders of the High-End recording industry that the best MOVING MAGNETS are very close to the master tape (or live mic feed, for direct to disc) and that they are capable of "uncanny" resolution. On the other hand, we have the prevailing perception, amounting almost to a shibboleth, of the High-End listening community, that only MOVIN COILS are realistic in some sense of that word and that moving magnets are incapable of sonic truth.

As ASP pointed out in TAS (Issue 70), the audiophile consumer and dealer community is massively arrayed against MOVING MAGNETS cartridges. But experimentation is interesting, and in this case inexpensive. If your audiophile friends give you a hard time, you’ll certainly have a pat answer: you can say if it’s good enough for Kavi Alexander, Jim Boyk, and Doug Sax, it’s good enough for me. The AT-ML170 has tip resonance at 40 kHz, and hence response that extends to that frequency at least. Flanders again: "The ear can’t hear as high as that. Still, it ought to please any passing bat." Seriously, though, such ultra-extension does seem to be associated with exceptional top end clarity.

Everyone is entitled to personal tastes, but truth is truth. If you want to hear something like the truth, I still say-no matter what everyone else is using-that you should buy a flat-top cartridge like the AT-ML170 and avoid all MC cartridges with a rising top-end. If the sound of live music is your goal, why would you want to hear a sound which is not only untrue to its source but also is something you are "seldom conscious of live".

Garrott Brothers P-77i - seems to have a big cult following and great reviews. Any sources to actually purchase in the USA or have to order from Australia? This one seems like a really high potential cartridge.

You’d better order direct from the manufacturer, actually the price on their site is not in USD, but in AU$, it will be much less in USD including shipping. Here is the original P77 on the most expensive tonearm in my system, it was magical.

• GRACE - sounds like one of the best all time MM. Although seems like the secret is definitely out because so far most of what I can find is in the $500 - $600 for a broken stylus. I also have no experience to buy used cartridges so would want to make sure it’s a really reputable source. Any one selling?? lol

I sold some nice Grace carts in the past on UKAM many years ago to rise funds for their best models. The upgrade route from F9 to original F14 LC-OFC cost a lot, but over the years step by step I managed to get NOS for my collection, even the rarest Grace signature Asakura One (MC).

F9 or F8C is a good start, especially if you want to get your stylus from SoundSmith. All you need is a cartridge body with broken stylus which is normally no more than $250

• Clearaudio Maestro - sounds like a great option as well but to quote @chakster I’m also concerned about the unprotected cantilever and no user replaceable styli. Also, are these made by Audio Technica? Maybe they have a similar sound and better value with the AT??

They are not better than AT and ClearAudio design (unprotected cantilever) is a nonsense for MM, also you can’t change the stylus yourself, you must ship your cartridge back to ClearAudio for stylus replacement. So when you got the ClearAudio MM you will have to do the same as you must do with MC, which is nonsense in my opinion.

Picking a cart is VERY subjective, and the synergy of a cart with any given system is a variable.  If a system is neutral to slightly warmish, a brighter cart can liven things up and sound great....but the same cart on a system that's already on the brighter side can make your ears bleed.  In many ways its a shot in the dark unless you have a good dealer nearby that will let you try them.  

It's helpful to know your system's traits well, and know what your preferences are.  Do you prefer brighter sound, or does treble emphasis make you cringe?  (that's partly why its so subjective)

Nagaoka  prices have been on the rise (along with many other things), but FWIW, I did spot some MP500s on Ebay directly from Japan for ~ $791.  Price, and that "shot in the dark" syndrome is one of the reasons I tried a Nag MP150 first....it let me try a good example of a Nag cart for ~ $300 to see if it was for me...then later opted for the MP500 stylus for an additional $257.  

Good luck with your search.

You are not going to better the black unless you spend way more money. Most likely you will have to buy a moving coil to better it. I have a bronze 2m and I love it. It does everything right by me, especially paired with a nice tubed phono preamp.

Some of the best carts in the world have an “unprotected cantilever”. Just use a bit more caution. Minor issue if even that. Like any subject in the HiFi world, you will get a million opinions. You’ll have to try somethings for yourself and see where you land. A replaceable styli is a nice feature of some MM carts, but shouldn’t be a deal killer alone.

OP. Lots of good discounts on Nagaoka on the net. Saw a M-P 500 for around $760.

Thanks again everyone! 
If nothing else this has really educated me on a lot more options than I had previously considered.  It also seems to show just how subjective "good" sound can be based on each person's own preference. 

Here have been my thoughts so far: 

• The Audio Technica - seem like they may really present some great sound at a good value.  Found NOS AT150MLX for $479 which might be worth it just to try that series.  Also the new VM760SLC seems to be the replacement.  Anyone have experience with either. 
• Garrott Brothers P-77i - seems to have a big cult following and great reviews.  Any sources to actually purchase in the USA or have to order from Australia?  This one seems like a really high potential cartridge. 
  
• GRACE - sounds like one of the best all time MM.  Although seems like the secret is definitely out because so far most of what I can find is in the $500 - $600 for a broken stylus.  I also have no experience to buy used cartridges so would want to make sure it's a really reputable source. Any one selling?? lol 
• Clearaudio Maestro - sounds like a great option as well but to quote @chakster I'm also concerned about the unprotected cantilever and no user replaceable styli.  Also, are these made by Audio Technica?  Maybe they have a similar sound and better value with the AT?? 
• Nagaoka MP500 - still interested but after looking further it seems like they are now going for $1k.  At that price maybe better consider something else ie) SoundSmith Carmen. 
  

I definitely still have a lot to learn and more research to do.  Thanks! 

I use a Nagaoka MP-200 on a very light weight Well Tempered Labs tonearm. It works beautifully. It easily bettered my Soundsmith cartridge that cost $1200. 

The Nag has a timbral accuracy and sweetness that plays up there with some of the big boys. And has very good bass reproduction.

My Nag has the elliptical stylus, as the MP-500 has more of a line contact one .
The 500 would be a good choice for you as it is squarely in your price range of $800. I know some will say it's low compliance will not work well with lighter tonearms but my combination shows it will work.
Cheers,

+1 on the Grace cartridge recommendation.  I was a dealer for most of the time they were around.  I still have quite a few, (sorry, none for sale).

Dear @dsjs4 : You already own TT/tonearm by Clearaudio and I agree with the advise for the Clearaudio Maestro that's is very good quality performer.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Find yourself a GRACE cartridge (F9 or F8C) with broken stylus for cheap ($200) and send it to SoundSmith for rebuild or buy his new styli for Grace F9.  

Grace cartridges are excellent and Peter specialized in Grace service for ages.

I prefer original Grace F14 and LEVEL II models, but those are very expensive and extremely rare, you can read my latest posts here.

I didn’t find the Nagaoka MP carts anymore difficult to setup than any other cart. The MP500 weighs about 8 grams. The line contact stylus is more sensitive to VTA and alignment than conicals and ellipticals in general, but that’s more the nature of the LC profile than having the Nagaoka logo. They do seem to take a while to break in fully.  Either way, it’s a well rewarded endeavor.

I put a Nagaoka JN-P500 stylus on an MP150 body... its not the recommended upgrade, and not quite at the level of a true MP500, but it’s sounds like I’ve wanted all my previous carts to sound. Lush midrange clarity with lots of separation, and a huge soundstage. Treble is very refined, and detail is clean, precise, and very pleasing. Bass is dynamic and natural sounding, and micro dynamics are fast and explosive. No glaring flaws. Most importantly, it’s a very intriguing easy to listen to cart that sucks you into the performance.

The 2m Bronze stylus may give you a bit more "musical" character. The Bronze and Black share the same cartridge. 

Practically any cartridge with unprotected cantilever like ClearAudio is awful, such cantilever is so easy to damage. This is the worst design ever, because normally most of the cartridges in the past 50 years have been designed properly with cantilever located UNDER the cartridge body, not in front of it! When you’re looking for a cartridge for everyday use take in count practical side of it (if you don’t want to pay twice).

Also an advice for MM cartridge is more valid from people who actually own or tried many of them, not just a few modern carts.

Never buy an MM cartridge without user replaceable stylus!

The benefit of MM is USER REPLACEABLE stylus, not a factory replaceable stylus which cost like an MC service.

If you want an MM or MI look for those with detachable styli that you can buy separately and install yourself when it's time to change the stylus. 

I think it's more different with the low gain coil than direct cartridge coupling. it will pull out more low level detail and bigger size  sound + stage. clarity and energy much better as well. 


its painful to burn in the cables and cart though to get it to perform better than the high gains and shibata /lc is always need much more accurate and ideal  setup, tonearm quality becomes also more important . very easy to sound worse than MM... I had been to and fro of this for quite a bit.. at least that's my conclusion now. 

The Clearaudio Maestro V2 is a fantastic MM cart that can be had used for less than your budget. It was the top dog for ClearAudio before the Charisma came out. I disagree on the HOMC comment above, there are some good ones. The Sumiko Blue #2 is an excellent overall cart when setup well. I used one for a bit while my Lyra cart was being rebuilt. Frankly, I was quite satisfied with the sound for the price point. It was overall very nice. In terms of the MM carts, I tried the entire Ortofon line and to me they were ok. Landed on the Meastro and for an MM gives my Lyra a good run for the (too much) money. The Lyra is a great cart, pulls every bit of detail, speed and nuance out of the vinyl. It can be a bit analytical on some recordings though, and requires very careful setup. The Maestro is just smooth, silky and clean. I really love its sound. It requires nailing the setup as well, but isn’t as finicky as the Lyra.

Up your budget a little and buy the Soundsmith Carmen II. You can thank me later…

Oz

HOMCs should not be an option. You have a fine phono section. There are many fine MM cartridges out there. The problem is getting one you will like significantly more than the 2M Black for $800 is IMHO not likely. My favorite in that price range is the Goldring 1042, followed by the AT VM760SLC. My favorite MM price no option is the Clearaudio Charisma at $2000. My favorite moving Iron cartridge is...I really don't know. I've owned Grado's and they are great once you get to $1500 or so. I have a Soundsmith Voice but its turntable is on some bench in Minnesota being built and I have not heard it yet. It is also one of their more expensive cartridges but I understand their less expensive cartridges are still very good. You have the Othello at $400 then the Carmen at $1000. Nothing in between. 

If I might make a suggestion? You may want to wait a little longer and save for a significant improvement, something in the $1500 to $2000 dollar range Like the Soundsmith Zephyr or Aida, The Grado Ref 2 or the Clearaudio Charisma. 

Tim @Mr_M has the 500 on a Well Tempered Labs table, he replaced a Soundsmith Carmen as i recall, perhaps he can weigh in…

With your budget for new MM look for Garrott Brothers P-77i from Australia.

Thanks @noromance !

The Nagaoka MP500 or Audio Technica VM760ML were two that I had come across as well.  My concerns with the Nagaoka is I've read it's difficult to setup and it also looks quite heavy.  I was worried if that would pair well with the Satisfy Carbon tone arm or not?? 

@mofimadness Yes can't agree more about David Belles pieces! I love the Aria....I had "upgraded" it from a Rogue Sphinx V2 and never looked back!! 

The wooden Grados are a great recommendation. They are warm and fuzzy for sure, if that’s what you’re looking for.  The Opus3 is less than $300 and it will give a very good taste of what the higher priced models will sound like.  Great place to start.

Huge David Belles fan here! I’ve owned quite a few of his pieces and they are indeed excellent.

Thanks for all the advice so far! 

Just for a little more info and to reply to some previous comments: 

• I mainly listen to jazz, blues, folk & rock 
• The majority of my albums are AAA [most are Analogue Production pressings as they seem to be very high quality and I've been trying my best to avoid digitally remastered]
• Per the seller, the 2M Black has about 150hrs ; I can't validate this but it does seem to be in good shape 

And yes I agree, the Aria is already quite neutral but I really do love it's sound.  Just thought I might try "warming" it up through a new cartridge.  

Again I'm still learning what my ears like....so a lot of this is exploring new sounds and options.  [Hence one of the reasons I don't want to jump into MC and new phono stages at this time].  

Nagaoka MP500 or Audio Technica VM760ML are both fast and articulate, and slightly warmer than the Black so you won’t lose too much detail and air. Either will sound more full bodied and musical with the AT the more "neutral" of the pair.

the black is super neutral as is the Aria…….A more “ romantic” cartridge like a wood body Grado might be a change you would like… IF your Black is mint, it still has significant value. You might also try a Hagerman phono stage, they are about $1k.

have fun

You have a good cartridge with nice stylus profile if it’s not worn out (you said it was purchased used).

Cartridge reproduce what’s on the record, are you sure your source is good enough? Before you will buy another cartridge find some reference records (good mastering and good pressing). Some records are boring as hell, especially digitally remastered reissues and some new stuff. 

Looking at the specs of the Aria, it has 9.54db of gain through the line stage and 33db for the phono stage. That means a total of around 42db.

The Ortofon Black is 5mv. The Hana high-outputs are 2mv. IMHO, a little too low to work well. Maybe around 3.5mv or higher, but it all depends on how loud you listen.

I have a Black in my stable of carts and really enjoy it. Audio Technica makes some killer carts also.

If you want to try a moving coil, Dynavecter sells a high output one for around $800.00, give or take. When I had one in my system years ago, it was a well balanced cartridge with really good bass slam.